DIM Plus-----Carla and Edith, Part II

February 29, 2004

Back again!

Admittedly, I have been taking DIM Plus based on anecdotal stories

and the willingness to be my own guinea pig. I began taking calcium d

glucarate, 250 mg per pill, over the summer and beta 1,3 glucans.

However, it must be stressed that there is simply a dearth of

research related to fibroids and to these supplements used to prevent

or treat disease. It is admirable of all of us to do our own reading

and thinking and decision making about fibroid treatments. But please

let us not put a blind faith in any supplement or surgery......those

of us using alternative treatments must acknowledge that we are going

into territory that is inadequately researched and we aren't certain

of long term consequences, for better or worse. Skepticism is fair

and we should remain skeptical enough to toss out anything that

doesn't work for us or that raises alarms about consequences. So,

Edith, it may seem that this is the myo group but, to be fair, many

of these ladies have had myos so that's what they are going to be

comfortable discussing. The fact that serious questions NEED to be

asked about ALL treatment options should not discourage anyone from

being in this group.

Carla asked a blatant question so I'm going to be blatant in

answering. When I began supplementing with calcium d glucarate, I

took one pill 2x daily, morning and evening. Within a week, I had

obvious vaginal dryness. I am only 41 years old, I am not anywhere

near menopause, dryness has NEVER been an issue with me. If anything,

I go to the other extreme. Once I cut back to one pill a day, in the

morning, the familiar wet feeling returned. No more itching or

dryness. I'll point out that I am not in a relationship and not

sexually active so that fact that I was noticing a dry vagina during

my waking hours says a lot to me.

The first few weeks I used DIM, I was taking one pill twice a day

before going to the intensive level of two pills twice a day. I can

defend experimenting with the higher level by pointing out that I am

obese and have a lifetime problem with estrogen dominance and PCOS.

Even before my weight reached the point where I'm at now, 220 lbs., I

had these problems. My estrogen has always been excessive enough to

repress the action of progesterone so I figure if I use an estrogen

metabolizer or progesterone cream, I may require more than thinner

women. It is interesting, Carla, that you point out the anti-

androgenic effects of DIM. I did not know that and will definitely be

reading PubMed to learn more. See, one of my less attractive PCOS

symptoms is facial hair which I've had since the age of 19. Since

taking DIM, I notice that the facial hair grows back more slowly

after shaving in the AM than before using it. I won't lose the hair

but the rate of growth is slowed as the evening shadow across the

face is less noticeable. Even the overnight growth seems less to me.

As to sexual effects, it is hard to say at this point. Once I flooded

last May, I stopped menstruating for three months and my feelings

went from I want it daily to I don't want it at all. I always want to

want it but the body doesn't always correspond to that. I felt my

body was in trauma, hormones out of whack again, and I was depressed

and stressed. I began using progesterone cream in August, by

September I was desirous again and menstruating monthly until I got

off track with my cream and supplement regiment in late Nov. I

haven't menstruated since Nov. My body feels like it is ovulating, it

feels like it wants to menstruate and doesn't. My sex drive has

diminished in the last month or so. I just can't point to one thing

and say, that's the cause. I can say that when I was taking just one

DIM Plus pill a day, I noticed an upsurge in my sexual drive

so....maybe the downturn is significant in light of my higher dosage.

I am concerned about the effect of estrogen metabolizers on

menstruation. And I'm at a point of re-evaluating the supplements and

amount of supplements I am taking. There are times when I think I'm

simply taking TOO much of the estrogen metabolizers. I have stopped

taking the beta 1,3 glucans and plan to quit the calcium d glucarate

to see how I do on just DIM Plus alone as a metabolizer.

Why the concern? Because estrogen metabolizers make your periods

very, very light. That's a change for someone like me who is

accustomed to much heavier flow. I'm not saying that there is a

perfect level of flow that is more normal or healthy. But I am

concerned about the fact that I am not menstruating....is it because

I stopped taking progesterone cream for a while? Or because I'm

taking TOO much of the estrogen metabolizers and need to cut back?

These are rhetorical questions, ones that I think are worthy of my

attention.

The fact that the muscle in my right leg has been cramping a lot the

past two weeks concerns me, also. I first had this problem over the

summer. In a rare moment of joy, I skipped through my living room and

fell as my leg went into spasms. It hurt for three days before I

could walk without pain. Lately, it has been contracting again. I

take 250 mg magnesium daily and admit that I am not as conscientious

about taking supplements for calcium or getting enough in food. So in

relationship to the earlier reference made to I3C/DIM and its

hypothetical effect on calcium and vitamin D, can I blame this on my

supplements? I really don't know but I'll throw it out there for

arguments sake.

It is also worthy to note that readers on the Healing from Fibroids

Naturally group have briefly discussed taking calcium d glucarate in

very high dosages based on limited research on the effect of very

high amounts, in the neighborhood of 1500-3000 mg per day, on

shrinking benign breast tumors. I must say it is tempting to self

diagnose but I also must consider the risks of that. The research is

limited, we cannot presume to extrapolate data about breast disease

to uterine fibroids simply because they are both believed to be

estrogen driven, fibroids may be driven by other factors besides

estrogen, and we don't know enough about side effects.

Anecdotally, a sister of mine confided recently that her periods have

become heavier and longer. I have pointed out to her that she has

some symptoms such as hair loss and erratic bleeding that I had for

nearly three years prior to my diagnosis of uterine fibroids. I am

concerned she has a fibroid and am working on her to see a gyno. In

the meantime, she said her body has a tendency to " drip " for about a

week after she would expect her period to be over and done with. I

gave her seven pills of calcium d glucarate, 250 mg, and asked that

she take only one a day for a week to see what it did. She said she

took all of three pills and noticed a significant change...no more

dripping. This stuff does have an effect on menstruation....this

causes me concern in the area of menstruating women taking very high

dosages, whatever benefit it might have. We just don't know what it

might do or not do for tumors, or long term side effects or

appropriate dosage levels.

Gloria

>

> DIM has been on an uphill incline in the research world since 1995.

> There has been some efficacy shown in prostate cancer research --

but

> much more needs to be studied before I would recommend anyone just

> " try " this potential solution on their own. For instance, it does

> disturb me that fish treated with DIM in studies have acquired liver

> cancer. Success with prostate cancer only to possibly promote liver

> cancer? Granted, a supplement showing success with prostate cancer

> would definitely be of interest to those looking into treatments

for a

> wide variety of other hormonally-associated tumors. But, the

passage

> you've quoted above doesn't mention DIM's role as an anti-androgenic

> -- which is part and parcel to " metabolize estrogens

> effectively " ...check PubMed to learn much, much more....

>

> Admittedly, I don't understand all of the research underway -- but

> have read enough confusing details regarding findings that I just

> would be extremely cautious with this one. Besides, doesn't it make

> more sense to simply up your fruit/vegetable intake that fits this

> category?

>

> Self treating may have many pros and cons. Be certain you're not

> blinded by the pros in the form of prose found online that doesn't

> cover its bases with the cons also found in research.....

>

> As a matter of blatant curiosity...have any of the women who are

> trying DIM experienced any differences in their sexual experiences?

> Less desire, vaginal dryness, etc.? Anything at all of note?

>

> Carla Dionne

February 29, 2004

Hello, Edie

Since your periods were already irregular, I would wonder if you have

ever gone this long without a period in the past. In your situation,

I suppose it's possible that it is related to perimenopause. I have

the same concern for you that I have for myself now, that you are

taking too many things that effect estrogen metabolism. The CDG, DIM

and mushrooms are estrogen metabolizers. There are anecdotal stories

attached to each supplement that they can help shrink fibroids. As I

explained earlier, when I began using CDG at 250 mg a day, my periods

became lighter and I was also using progesterone cream. When I got

out of the habit of using the cream, I still took the CDG and my

period stopped. I'm back on the cream and planning to break from

estrogen metabolizers a week at least to give myself a break.

My concern about not having periods is that my body still goes

through the motions of acting like one is going to start. I would

hate to think my uterine lining is building up and not shedding. I am

also having a problem with discomfort in my lower back and bloating.

during the past two weeks, I've noticed days when I've retained

several lbs of fluid for a few, uncomfortable days and suddenly lose

it all some morning. Then, the bloating begins again.

As far as the facial hair and thinning hair is concerned, have you

been evaluated for iron deficiency or Polycystic Ovarian Syndrome? Or

told that you have a higher level of testosterone than is " normal "

for a woman? High LDL or trigs that stubbornly resist going down even

when you exercise and lose weight? You may need a referral to an

endocrinologist with experience treating women with PCOS. Symptoms of

the syndrome can appear at any time in life. Mine started early. My

sister's best friend began showing symptoms in her late 30s after the

birth of her fourth and last child. JMO but I think it's worthwhile

for you to discuss this with your gyno.

Gloria

> Dear Gloria:

> Many thanks for sharing your insight and experiences with us. I am

49 and perimenopausal: I've had irregular periods for the past year

or so, since my UAE in 1/03. I just wanted to share that I have

many similar issues that you noted. I have always had a weight

problem with yo-yo dieting, years of being heavy then thinner, back

and forth - most recently lost 40 lbs. via low carbs and have kept it

off for these past 2 years. Between 4-5 years ago, I began to

experience hair loss, which is still continuing nowadays (top of

head) - an overall thinning. (I've been to 2 dermatologists and

neither could help, other than to recommend (men's strength) 5%

Rogaine (too scared to use it after the package says " not for

women " )! I have seen, also over the last 3-4 years, some facial hair

growth which I've (so far) been able to keep in check by snipping and

tweezing. All my meno / hormonal bloodwork came out " normal. "

(What's really " normal " anyway)? Anyway - my question for everyone

who is using the DIM, CDG and others (I'm also using Vitex, Shiitake

Mushrooms, Maitake Mushrooms and Essiac Tea): I started all these

herbs/supplements back in early December '03 - and I haven't had a

period for almost 3 months. Since my bloodwork did not indicate I

was anywhere near meno (at least according to my gyn), could the

stopping of the periods be related to menopause or any ONE or

combination of these herbs/supplements? Sorry for being so wordy,

but I wonder if anyone else has similar symptoms and is taking herbs

or supplements. Thanks for any ideas and input. Edie

> ----------------------------------------------------

February 29, 2004