Guest guest Posted July 8, 2006 Report Posted July 8, 2006 Hey All: I am having a snafu. As some of you may know...I do a combo of Armour and Synthroid. As you might guess there are folks who find this utterly and completely appauling. I get attacked by folks from both sides who say " you must " take one or the other. There are the Armour lovers and the synthetic lovers....and they love their pills so much...THEY hate eachother. I know...isn't that cute? Well since I do my combo protocol, as you can imagine, its hard for me to get support even among folks who are in support groups sometimes...whom I support. You would think the ticky-washy thing would come into play...but a lot of the time, I find myself doing a lot of supporting..and then get sand kicked in my face over my protocol. So...why do I even talk about my protocol? You would think I would just shut up. It only gets me into trouble. AND..if I am having a bad day...its always because I am NOT doing whatever THEY are doing. I did learn to not talk to the doctors about it. Right now, they dont' say too much, and that is a good thing. Some all Armour folks know that EVERYTHING that is wrong with me MUST be because I take that crappy t4 pill. ITS just poisoning me. IT must BE!!! They EVEN feel totally welcome to say this outright. I feel like telling them there babies are ugly and so are they!!! Nevermind that when I attempt to go without it...my t4 drops WAY down in the range (to get rid of the hypo, taking more Armour gets my t3 to shoot into the 800s!) and I wind up in a WORLD of misery --REALLY bad rigor-mortis, while feeling super hyper. I was close to perfect last year...when I abandoned this combo thing for the All natural thing...and am just climbing out of that mess now. I've tried countless times to valiantly to get rid of the synthetic and even a small reduction just wipes me out. IT can take a long time to get this stuff back into the cells. This is why...I tell folks to go slow, and do cautious tweaks rather than drastic changes. The bigger the change...the bigger the risk, and the longer it will take to get back on track if you are wrong. If I could have just taken Armour or synthroid...I surely would be doing that right now. For whatever reason, I find that I am miserable- deathly ill when I try one or the other. For whatever reason...people think I'm LYING about this. I must have taken the pills wrong somehow...because in their mind the pill they love (that works for them)...should work for EVERYONE -- no exceptions. Now..I am not one to " PUSH " my protocol on anyone. I know this is a highly individual thing, and realize each one of us experience different things and have differing bloodwork. I think of it like shoes...not everyone is a size four...and not everyone is a size 11. Some of us have a high instep and are more comfortable in heals. There are some truths...and some things that must be divided out as unknowns and somethings you just have to experiment with. A " tweak " here and there is usually better than an overhaul...yet just about everyone I talk to and support...tell me I MUST do a complete overhaul...EVEN as my tweaking is getting me closer to well. Just the fact that I'm not 100 percent well is a testament to them...THAT..I MUST be TOTALLY wrong. I simply CAN'T be doing ANYTHING right if I'm sick. This is what has happened in the last three weeks. I tried a few weeks ago to " tweak " part of my protocol upwards. I had kept it steady for many months..and thought I was ready to do a bit of an experiement. Well..I had to pull out of it..and am wroking patiently now to re-establish the baseline because it proved to be a dead end. During that foray...one week was " too high " ..then next REALLY good, (the best days in the past year I've experienced), and now this week, I'm suffering the " overcorrection " as I work my way back. That is how it works...nothing you can do about it except wait it out...SEVEN days half-life is a REAL thing. I'm thrilled that I know now (what limit I have with the t4).....but since I'm in this dip, I'm pretty much a hurting unit. These tweaks/experiments...can be brutal, and can take a couple weeks to turn back from. Now..that I'm feeling really unwell...EVERYONE it seems..sees this transitional weakness as a reason to tell me to abandon my entire project. One guy who I have spent (many nights coddling) even told me yesterday " You will never get well, if you keep micromanaging your protocol -- you have to do it the right way and take 3.5 grains " Just because I drove off the road doesn't mean its the car's fault. Anyway...why aren't people every ready to tell you to believe in yourself? I tell people that all the time. You are the reader of your body. You are the one who can tell if you have a migraine or edema. Rules, guidelines, knowns, unkowns, and individual tolerances, limitations, patience and super-self nosiness.....ALL come into play. If this were a one size fits all fix..then NONE of us would be here. Sheesh! I just had to vent a bit... ~E:) Quote
Guest guest Posted July 8, 2006 Report Posted July 8, 2006 > > > > I just had to vent a bit... > > ~E:) It is good to vent. I believe it is Blanchard that said after awhile if one stays on Armour there might be a t4t3 imbalance. So, t4 needs to be added. What works good for one might not work good for another IMO. Betty > Quote
Guest guest Posted July 8, 2006 Report Posted July 8, 2006 Hi E, I think Topper uses T4 with her Armour (where is she?). If you are convinced your protocol works or has the potential to work for you then stick with it. Some people find it takes a long time to reach your own medication 'sweet spot'. I take a combo of T4/T3 (quite successfully), and stopped posting on another support group because of its almost fanatical allegiance to Armour. If we are intolerant of each other's treatment protocols and our docs don't listen then where on earth can we go for support? It seems to me that if on synthetic only the T4 and T3 can be tweaked separately but not if on Armour only. If the ratio of T4 to T3 in Armour doesn't suit you (and why should it? I think you are extraordinarily fortunate if it does!)then you have no alternative than to add in T4 or, as some others do, T3. I'm sorry you are feeling so poorly. I've just come home after a lecture and Q & A session by Dr Barry Durrant-Peatfield (author of 'The Great Thyroid Scandal And How To Survive It') and feel quite elated. I'll try and think some of that good feeling your way. Oh by the way, Dr Peatfield says that he has been taking 6 grains of Armour a day for the last 20 years. --- lyongillespie wrote: > Hey All: > > I am having a snafu. As some of you may know...I do > a combo of Armour > and Synthroid. As you might guess there are folks > who find this > utterly and completely appauling. I get attacked by > folks from both > sides who say " you must " take one or the other. > > There are the Armour lovers and the synthetic > lovers....and they love > their pills so much...THEY hate eachother. I > know...isn't that cute? > > Well since I do my combo protocol, as you can > imagine, its hard for me > to get support even among folks who are in support > groups > sometimes...whom I support. You would think the > ticky-washy thing > would come into play...but a lot of the time, I find > myself doing a > lot of supporting..and then get sand kicked in my > face over my > protocol. > > So...why do I even talk about my protocol? You > would think I would > just shut up. It only gets me into trouble. AND..if > I am having a bad > day...its always because I am NOT doing whatever > THEY are doing. > > I did learn to not talk to the doctors about it. > Right now, they > dont' say too much, and that is a good thing. > > Some all Armour folks know that EVERYTHING that is > wrong with me MUST > be because I take that crappy t4 pill. ITS just > poisoning me. IT > must BE!!! They EVEN feel totally welcome to say > this outright. > > I feel like telling them there babies are ugly and > so are they!!! > > Nevermind that when I attempt to go without it...my > t4 drops WAY down > in the range (to get rid of the hypo, taking more > Armour gets my t3 to > shoot into the 800s!) and I wind up in a WORLD of > misery --REALLY bad > rigor-mortis, while feeling super hyper. > > I was close to perfect last year...when I abandoned > this combo thing > for the All natural thing...and am just climbing out > of that mess now. > I've tried countless times to valiantly to get rid > of the synthetic > and even a small reduction just wipes me out. > > IT can take a long time to get this stuff back into > the cells. This is > why...I tell folks to go slow, and do cautious > tweaks rather than > drastic changes. The bigger the change...the bigger > the risk, and the > longer it will take to get back on track if you are > wrong. > > If I could have just taken Armour or synthroid...I > surely would be > doing that right now. For whatever reason, I find > that I am miserable- > deathly ill when I try one or the other. For > whatever reason...people > think I'm LYING about this. I must have taken the > pills wrong > somehow...because in their mind the pill they love > (that works for > them)...should work for EVERYONE -- no exceptions. > > Now..I am not one to " PUSH " my protocol on anyone. > I know this is a > highly individual thing, and realize each one of us > experience > different things and have differing bloodwork. I > think of it like > shoes...not everyone is a size four...and not > everyone is a size 11. > Some of us have a high instep and are more > comfortable in heals. > > There are some truths...and some things that must be > divided out as > unknowns and somethings you just have to experiment > with. A " tweak " > here and there is usually better than an > overhaul...yet just about > everyone I talk to and support...tell me I MUST do a > complete > overhaul...EVEN as my tweaking is getting me closer > to well. Just the > fact that I'm not 100 percent well is a testament to > them...THAT..I > MUST be TOTALLY wrong. I simply CAN'T be doing > ANYTHING right if I'm > sick. > > This is what has happened in the last three weeks. > > I tried a few weeks ago to " tweak " part of my > protocol upwards. I had > kept it steady for many months..and thought I was > ready to do a bit of > an experiement. Well..I had to pull out of it..and > am wroking > patiently now to re-establish the baseline because > it proved to be a > dead end. > > During that foray...one week was " too high " ..then > next REALLY good, > (the best days in the past year I've experienced), > and now this week, > I'm suffering the " overcorrection " as I work my way > back. > > That is how it works...nothing you can do about it > except wait it > out...SEVEN days half-life is a REAL thing. > > I'm thrilled that I know now (what limit I have with > the t4).....but > since I'm in this dip, I'm pretty much a hurting > unit. These > tweaks/experiments...can be brutal, and can take a > couple weeks to > turn back from. Now..that I'm feeling really > unwell...EVERYONE it > seems..sees this transitional weakness as a reason > to tell me to > abandon my entire project. > > One guy who I have spent (many nights coddling) even > told me > yesterday " You will never get well, if you keep > micromanaging your > protocol -- you have to do it the right way and take > 3.5 grains " > > Just because I drove off the road doesn't mean its > the car's fault. > > Anyway...why aren't people every ready to tell you > to believe in > yourself? I tell people that all the time. You are > the reader of > your body. You are the one who can tell if you have > a migraine or > edema. Rules, guidelines, knowns, unkowns, and > individual tolerances, > limitations, patience and super-self > nosiness.....ALL come into play. > > If this were a one size fits all fix..then NONE of > us would be here. > > Sheesh! > > I just had to vent a bit... > > ~E:) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > === message truncated === __________________________________________________ Quote
Guest guest Posted July 8, 2006 Report Posted July 8, 2006 : Thanks sooo much for your thoughtful and kind words of support. Naturally I have this stuff just steaming through my mind right now. About where to go for support -- YES..that is just it!!! You hit the nail on the head. I can't really openly discuss my protocol anywhere, and that makes it very tough for me. I am sort of housebound with this issue and I just sometimes need to compare notes, hear an encouraging word once in awhile, vent a little on the hard days...you know? I am making progress, even as I have set-backs from time to time...but I am convinced that this is the correct direction. I know I'll be lifting weights, running on the treadmill and dancing sometime in the next few month if I stick to my mission. I feel like a few folks are judging me and sneering at me...under their breaths..like " I'm well and she's not, cuz she is stupidly taking that t4 pill." I can't help but think..the reason why they are better is because they aren't coming from having no thryoid. That is right..I have ZERO thyroid. The doctors took it on me...and I am flying with nothing... NADA. EVERY microgram I take has to be CAREFULLY monitored and consistently considered. I don't have the luxury of just swapping the meds around with ease. I crash BADLY a week...and lose the ability to see, think, laugh, and then some. The high-wire act is just someone different and I have nothing to compare it to since ...I never took thryoid meds before that. ITS really easy to just SAY...take 3 grains of Armour, and that is why you don't see a lot of books and articles getting into the nitty-gritty of protocol. The books that advocate Armour make it sound like a magic pill. I'm sure it is for many hypo folks with a thyroid. And...I can see many folks can't do just all Armour. My basal is better with the added t4...so why doesn't that count as proof that the t4 addition is helpful for me? I just don't understand the blind and AGGRESSIVE pushiness of something that may be perfect for me if I were a pig. Now...I can't very well help that I'm not. I am what I am. I'm only part pig...I guess. I think I know the group you are referring to. I had to bail on them cuz they were bringing me down. WOW...and so you saw Peatfield in the FLESH? I have his book and LOVE it... Tell me all about it...I need a good pick me up! Was he cute...was he shaking from too much Armour? Six GRAINs? Was he a big man? I wish I knew where our Topper went. Our fine lady seems to have gone missing again. ~E:) ~EG Connecticut T-T 2 years ago - 60 mcg Synthetic/97.5mg Armour Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great rates starting at 1¢/min. Quote
Guest guest Posted July 8, 2006 Report Posted July 8, 2006 There are the Armour lovers and the synthetic lovers....and they love > their pills so much...THEY hate eachother. I know...isn't that cute? For those with trouble adjusting meds, the T4, T4/T3 combo you are on seems to be the best that works.. I understand where you are coming from.. quickly unsubbed from a few boards for that exact reason..if I was not taking Armour there was something wrong with me.. did not matter that I was hyper at the time.. Armour would cure all.. I am sorry they are all giving you a hard time, with no support.. I know you are close to your sweet spot..keep trying you will find it.. If such small dose changes wipe you out, and your numbers are above the range then I wonder if you can post your symptoms..meds with dosage, daily timing etc. herbs etc so hopefully someone cna see where you need to tweak.. Do you have a daily symptoms list? Heart rate up or down? Tired more at 3 pm? Tired more in the morning? Sore muscles at 5 pm.. that type of thing? For now you need to ride the 7 days out..but hopefully between now and then soemone can have a lightbulb idea? Kats3boys Quote
Guest guest Posted July 9, 2006 Report Posted July 9, 2006 > > The doctors took it on me...and I am flying with nothing... NADA. EVERY >microgram I take has to be CAREFULLY monitored and consistently considered. >I don't have the luxury of just swapping the meds around with ease. I >crash BADLY a week...and lose the ability to see, think, laugh, and then >some. Hi E, Do you really think that's what it's like for the rest of us ????? Sounds like a bit of hypoparanoia there to me ! lol I wish we could behave like that, but it's rarely easy for anyone. I imagine that many of your critics don't like the idea that you're mixing the dreaded synthetic (and it's true, there is more to say against it than for it) with the almighty pig. Just tell them it's not a question of synthetic versus natural, it's a question of T4/T3 balance (as someone else just said). An awful lot of people have this struggle, you're not unique in that. Even if you are unique in other ways - like the level of T4 and T3 that is best for you personnally. You're over the upper range, and that must terrify a lot of people that see the upper limit as a divine line over which you will instantly, and irrevocably, fall into HYPER - hushed breath and frantic signs of the cross amongst the assembly ! lol That is a bit of hypoparanoia too. There's nothing magical about the upper limit - or the lower one, come to that. Did they take your particular metabolism into consideration when they fixed the range ? Of course, they didn't. So why should you - or any of the rest of us - feel we have to limit our lives by this cursed line ? I'm at my best when I'm over it, too. So are a hell of a lot of people. If you ask me (and of course, nobody does ! lol) all the ranges need reviewing, taken into considertion the advanced knowledge of this disease that we now have. And all this bleating about hyper symtoms... Here I'm going to be thoroughly unPC - with no apologies - and say that I do wonder if they really are hyper symptoms people are suffering ????? Concidering hypo sympotms resemble so closely hypo symptoms, and considering that I had them all with a TSH of 9.5, you'll forgive me if I have my doubts and refuse to let anyone - but anyone - tell me I'm hyper, when my body is screaming HYPO !!!!! You said it yourself, listen to your body. It knows what it wants. Learn to understand it. And don't let yourself be brought down by people who know less about the subject than you do ! I've had my say. Best wishes to all, Lili _________________________________________________________________ Ten : profite de ton Messenger en illimité sur ton mobile ! http://mobile.live.fr/messenger/ten/ Quote
Guest guest Posted July 9, 2006 Report Posted July 9, 2006 E... I hope you won't be peeved at me about this.. but I started smiling after your first couple of lines and my grin got bigger and bigger until I reached the end... You've been around here for a while... you know I'm pretty much a pro natural.... and pretty much an anti synthetic.... Most cuz of how poorly I did during my synthetic years ala docs and how well I did when I started on natural... Over the years I've met many folks that did better going the natural route... and quite a few that did better going the synthetic route... and then that small niche that does best with a combo... With all that I've learned about the hormones during these last few years, how they work, how stuff is made, how stuff is processed by the body.... all the interactions and the math and all the stuff that makes it work or not work.... and even with all of that... it doesn't 'work' for everyone. When my supply of natural dwindled when I lost my supplier (the pharmacy shut down) I did the math and figured out the equivalencies and worked out a regime that would give me everything I'd need to continue without problem, health wise, while I worked on finding and new source and such... that was last November.... My equivalencies were perfect. My synthetic/natural combo was mathematically a perfect replacement for the regime that I'd had before and I went quite a few months before I started 'noticing' stuff. It was gradual. We lost , that was a stress, I attributed stuff to that stress. There was a change of season, I blamed some of it on that.. then the thing with the leg started and I blamed that, at first on 'over doing it'. The pain would come and go... Then it worked into an intermittent tendon seizure, for lack of a better term... then it got to where it lasted a couple of days and I started reflecting. Before I got the Plantar Faciitis I was having trouble with my leg... I started to wonder if I was developing that same trouble again. Did a bit of experimentation on myself over the next several weeks and got so that I could pretty much trigger or stop an episode with my leg just by how I was dosing with the synthetic T4. Stopping it for two days and all the leg pain and seizing stopped... go back on it for over three days and the pain would be back... According to the 'experts' that shouldn't happen. According to the 'experts' your regime shouldn't work either. You and I are like two extremes, kinda.... You need a combo to get the right hormonal balance and I can't do a combo, even when mathematically the hormone intake is exactly the same (by replacing part of my natural dose with either T4 or a combo of T4 and T3) No matter how perfectly we understand the hormones and the chemistry involved with our treatment... all that information is still only a guideline for us... There are SO many variables when it comes to how our bodies utilize what we are taking... How well we process the synthetic T4 and how we convert it.... How efficiently conversion occurs or if we need to supplement with additional T3. You know.. as I write this.. it suddenly strikes me.... could my situation be rolling right back around to conversion? What if I don't do as well using synthetic T4 and T3 rather than natural cuz the natural also contains the T2 and T1 and I'm not converting that efficiently either?? Anyway... my point... it doesn't matter what the math for the hormonal balance is it's how our bodies respond. For any and for all of us we have to learn how it works 'by the book' and then use those 'laws and rules' to relate to how our body responds and then go from there. One day last week, Thursday to be exact, I ditched my natural for the day and did a mathematical equivalent using T4 and T3... I made it through the day... I took the T4 as a single empty stomach dose in the morning, and then multi-dosed the T3, sublingually, at my regular dosing times the rest of the day.... I didn't really notice any difference.... until I got up Friday morning... I was totally 'drag butt' I got my chores done (Friday is cooking baking day for me) but after that I was just mush. I kept busy, as I am pretty much every day but I wasn't focused. I kept flitting from project to project. I'd had a lot of stress earlier in the week with some puter problems and it was like I was brain dead on Friday. I didn't want to do ANYTHING that required me to think. I flitted through two days of being TOTALLY busy and occupied doing 'busy work'. Stuff that needed doing.. but didn't need me to think. I wasn't so bad that I was vegetative and didn't do anything.... but didn't want to think. I don't even know if that makes sense... Today I'm feeling better... but not exactly 'right'. I had to have all my chores done before sitting down to work on posts... then, after I posted this morning, I couldn't write anything else until I went through ALL the posts that have accumulated since my thinking brain went on vacation... I had to get rid of duplicates... and 'categorize' the threads. Yeah.. now I see it.... I'm being OCD.... didn't realize it until I just wrote this... everything I've been doing now this last week, the stuff that has kept me so incredibly busy has been all OCD stuff.. taking it all to extremes.... Okay.. now I see it... what do I DO about it!!!???? hehehehehe It's such a fine line between feeling good and feeling crappy.. and somewhere between there is the 'little bit off but can't put my finger on it' stage.... It's all tweaking. It's all individual. No single set of rules that works for everyone... Gosh... how I wish there was... or at least a set of rules.... Like... Rules for post thyroidectomy Rules for post RAI, no remaining gland Rules for post RAI, some gland function Rules for Hashi's Rules for physical injury... Yeah.. that would do it... with those we'd be all set.... just determine the category, follow the 'recipe' and we'd all be perfect!!!! I'm starting to feel sorry for myself... I'm gonna be facing months of getting my regime back on track.... it's gonna SUCK!! I'm sitting here now perfectly comfy... I have my feet up and I'm leaning back on my chair... I'm using my chair deck invention to hold my keyboard... I cranked up the font size on the monitor so it's REALLY easy to see from this far away... my fan is on with a nice breeze blowing across me.... I have a sappy AMC movie on the TV with the volume at just the perfect level, loud enough to hear but not so loud as to cancel what I'm thinking.... and yet I'm feeling anxious... something wrong... something missing.... have to fix it cuz it's wrong... but what is wrong? I had a nice mini meal... have eaten pretty much on schedule today, I'm sated right now and not feeling in need of food for tummy or something yummy to taste.... yet I feel something is wrong.. something is missing.... Our bodies are so fascinating... My logical brain is telling me that this feeling I'm experiencing is a reflection of what my body is feeling with my levels being off, that includes the reduction in T4 that I'm doing in prep for the new meds coming... I'd dropped the T4 by 200 mcg per week with all the leg/tendon experimentation... and then with the new meds coming I've dropped it again by another 25 mcg per day with some T3 added to balance stuff out a bit.... I'm sitting here trying to decide how to explain how I feel. See, this is the longest I've sat down and done one thing in a week.... reading the posts and now writing.... since my puter crash Tuesday or Wednesday... and the closest I can come is that I feeling like I need to get up to make sure that the water in the tub is shut off and the tub isn't over flowing, then I need to check to make sure that I turned off the faucet in the kitchen after I finished the dishes this morning.... then I need to check to see that I locked the front door.... Then I need to make sure that I didn't leave the phone off the hook.... Just goofy stupid little things that are very routine and I'm feeling like I messed it all up... cuz something is wrong. I'm half tempted to blog the transition, going through the dosage adjustments.... But that would be ANOTHER project on my plate... I'll think about that... I journal and chart whenever I do adjustments... and spot check and journal in between.... But how you write to yourself is different than how you'd write to the world... It's hard to remember that we're all different when it comes to what our bodies need and how they work... Maybe we need a sign to put over our monitors??? hehehehe Drats.. this is getting long... I'm shutting up.... I think I'll go check the tub... Topper () On Sat, 08 Jul 2006 11:50:21 -0000 " lyongillespie " writes: > Hey All: > > I am having a snafu. As some of you may know...I do a combo of > Armour > and Synthroid. As you might guess there are folks who find this > utterly and completely appauling. I get attacked by folks from both > sides who say " you must " take one or the other. > > There are the Armour lovers and the synthetic lovers....and they > love > their pills so much...THEY hate eachother. I know...isn't that > cute? > > Well since I do my combo protocol, as you can imagine, its hard for > me > to get support even among folks who are in support groups > sometimes...whom I support. You would think the ticky-washy thing > would come into play...but a lot of the time, I find myself doing a > lot of supporting..and then get sand kicked in my face over my > protocol. > > So...why do I even talk about my protocol? You would think I would > just shut up. It only gets me into trouble. AND..if I am having a > bad > day...its always because I am NOT doing whatever THEY are doing. > > I did learn to not talk to the doctors about it. Right now, they > dont' say too much, and that is a good thing. > > Some all Armour folks know that EVERYTHING that is wrong with me > MUST > be because I take that crappy t4 pill. ITS just poisoning me. IT > must BE!!! They EVEN feel totally welcome to say this outright. > > I feel like telling them there babies are ugly and so are they!!! > > Nevermind that when I attempt to go without it...my t4 drops WAY > down > in the range (to get rid of the hypo, taking more Armour gets my t3 > to > shoot into the 800s!) and I wind up in a WORLD of misery --REALLY > bad > rigor-mortis, while feeling super hyper. > > I was close to perfect last year...when I abandoned this combo thing > for the All natural thing...and am just climbing out of that mess > now. > I've tried countless times to valiantly to get rid of the synthetic > and even a small reduction just wipes me out. > > IT can take a long time to get this stuff back into the cells. This > is > why...I tell folks to go slow, and do cautious tweaks rather than > drastic changes. The bigger the change...the bigger the risk, and > the > longer it will take to get back on track if you are wrong. > > If I could have just taken Armour or synthroid...I surely would be > doing that right now. For whatever reason, I find that I am > miserable- > deathly ill when I try one or the other. For whatever > reason...people > think I'm LYING about this. I must have taken the pills wrong > somehow...because in their mind the pill they love (that works for > them)...should work for EVERYONE -- no exceptions. > > Now..I am not one to " PUSH " my protocol on anyone. I know this is a > highly individual thing, and realize each one of us experience > different things and have differing bloodwork. I think of it like > shoes...not everyone is a size four...and not everyone is a size 11. > > Some of us have a high instep and are more comfortable in heals. > > There are some truths...and some things that must be divided out as > unknowns and somethings you just have to experiment with. A " tweak " > here and there is usually better than an overhaul...yet just about > everyone I talk to and support...tell me I MUST do a complete > overhaul...EVEN as my tweaking is getting me closer to well. Just > the > fact that I'm not 100 percent well is a testament to them...THAT..I > MUST be TOTALLY wrong. I simply CAN'T be doing ANYTHING right if I'm > sick. > > This is what has happened in the last three weeks. > > I tried a few weeks ago to " tweak " part of my protocol upwards. I > had > kept it steady for many months..and thought I was ready to do a bit > of > an experiement. Well..I had to pull out of it..and am wroking > patiently now to re-establish the baseline because it proved to be a > dead end. > > During that foray...one week was " too high " ..then next REALLY good, > (the best days in the past year I've experienced), and now this > week, > I'm suffering the " overcorrection " as I work my way back. > > That is how it works...nothing you can do about it except wait it > out...SEVEN days half-life is a REAL thing. > > I'm thrilled that I know now (what limit I have with the t4).....but > since I'm in this dip, I'm pretty much a hurting unit. These > tweaks/experiments...can be brutal, and can take a couple weeks to > turn back from. Now..that I'm feeling really unwell...EVERYONE it > seems..sees this transitional weakness as a reason to tell me to > abandon my entire project. > > One guy who I have spent (many nights coddling) even told me > yesterday " You will never get well, if you keep micromanaging your > protocol -- you have to do it the right way and take 3.5 grains " > > Just because I drove off the road doesn't mean its the car's fault. > > Anyway...why aren't people every ready to tell you to believe in > yourself? I tell people that all the time. You are the reader of > your body. You are the one who can tell if you have a migraine or > edema. Rules, guidelines, knowns, unkowns, and individual > tolerances, > limitations, patience and super-self nosiness.....ALL come into > play. > > If this were a one size fits all fix..then NONE of us would be > here. > > Sheesh! > > I just had to vent a bit... > > ~E:) Quote
Guest guest Posted July 9, 2006 Report Posted July 9, 2006 HI Topper, I notice the very few times I had a real computer crash, everything went off for me—I make my living by computers so it’s a really big deal when one of my crashes — I had one pre-hypo and one post — and both times set me back a couple of weeks really til I was sure I got everything back the way it was, or really, the way it needed to be post-crash. Just a thought that popped up when reading your post.. I think I am in a “zen” mood on this one Sue E... I hope you won't be peeved at me about this.. but I started smiling after your first couple of lines and my grin got bigger and bigger until I reached the end... You've been around here for a while... you know I'm pretty much a pro natural.... and pretty much an anti synthetic.... Most cuz of how poorly I did during my synthetic years ala docs and how well I did when I started on natural... situation be rolling right back around to conversion? What if I don't do as well using synthetic T4 and T3 rather than natural cuz the natural also contains the T2 and T1 and I'm not converting that efficiently either?? Quote
Guest guest Posted July 9, 2006 Report Posted July 9, 2006 Topper: Thanks for the EXTRA..sweet response. You are just TOO Cool! I love your notes... I'm not Peeved at you!!! Not a chance.. Yeah...I know what you mean when you say that you aquired an anti-synthetic stance after you were so grossly undermedicated. I HAVE quite a bone to pick with the doctors who did that to me too. I had many fights (went through ten doctors) just trying to get to taking Armour and getting the right size pills....the whole madness was just REALLY terrible. Thankfully that is all behind me.... So,.,In the end when I realized I had a limit on how little synthetic I could take....the quest was on to find the combo... And...I had to relent and realize that a tool is a tool...and if you have it handy you might as well go ahead and use it...even if the Devil himself hands it to you. You gave me extra insight..(always looking for puzzle peices) into how the synthetic replacement for your Armour gave you tendon issues. I can see now..that is what happens to me when I'm too high with it. YOU explained that beautifully too. Can't thank you enough. As far as the equivalencies are concerned...I've really come to understanding how those charts can ONLY provide a guideline. I think I have found the flaw in them...AND realize too that I have to build in that extra guess factor when doing the math. I KNOW that if I want to go up with the Armour (which HAS to be over 101.5)..I can't have more than 60 mcgs of Synthroid there.I can't go up with the Armour cuz I feel hyper (EVEN AS I REMAIN HYPO)...but that goes away as soon as I move some of that Synthroid out of the way. The Synthroid is too high there at 60 mcgs..and I know that because it smushes me and give me pains with Stiffman's disease. This is BIG news to me...just found that out!!!! So...I must move the Synthroid..down, but ...I have no way of knowing how far down I can go...only it can't be below 50 mcgs. This I'm sure of. The reason why I have this headbanger (BRAIN-DEADNESS) this last week is because I broke THAT rule unintentionally. It sounds like you are still feeling the effects of your experiement...and that's what has you bouncing around. YES...I do believe it might be hard for you without a gland to enjoy great conversion...but its not just that. I think YOU need to have some straight natural to just give it to you cuz you are glandless. AS you say...maybe those T2's T1's...do help the brain...and settle your "OCD." We just still don't have the whole story on what that stuff does for us. I'll bet when we find out more about those things we will find the half-life to be much shorter than t4 too. Thanks Again!! ~E:) PS: You are so smart...and Iove how you work it round like a Rubick's cube... ~EG Connecticut T-T 2 years ago - 60 mcg Synthetic/97.5mg Armour Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great rates starting at 1¢/min. Quote
Guest guest Posted July 9, 2006 Report Posted July 9, 2006 Rubik's cube... I like that.... I do NEED to figure stuff out and how it works... not just for me... but for everyone else too.. that's me and all my questions... cuz it's not just the dose and the labs but how we feel and how we react... and after this last couple of weeks how our perceptions change when the dose is not yet right. I had a revelation with that post.... understanding what was happening with me and being so compulsive about stuff... you just don't see some of this stuff creep up on you, it's slow and insinuating... I think that is the word... like the frog and the soup pot.. throw the frog in boiling water and he reacts immediately (and dies) put a frog in room temp water and then turn on the fire and he'll slowly cook.....most of the time we don't react right away, we're the frog that had the fire turned up slowly... it's when you step back a bit, or someone else looks in on you that some of this stuff comes to light.... I've been half watching TV and reading a bit and thinking since that post.... I have a wish... dream... thought.... Folks should be started out on a small amount of synthetic first... labs and basals monitored, along with symptoms, to see how they are reacting.... if the response doesn't suggest that their body isn't handling the synthetic they should be given natural... and the same observations made.. then go from there..... determine what type works best and then start running the cycles with labs and symptom observation.... ... folks would stand a much better chance of getting things where they need to be without so much damage in the interim.... I lost soooo much cuz of what they did to me out of ignorance and arrogance..... not fair. You've got me curious... I'm gonna be digging out my charts... to see if I can spot at what point my symptoms (crappy leg) kicked in in relation to the change in proportions (natural to synthetic) I wonder if there is something there. I do know that the dose I was on (of synthetic T4) was the same as the dose the docs kept me on for a bit over 8 years.... 200 mcg. The first time the leg/foot went crappy I'd been on 200 mcg for about 4, maybe 4 1/2 years.... And that was starting out from being in pretty decent shape (weight lifter before thyroid storm) This time, guessing, it was about 4 months, gotta look it up. That's starting out as a recovering hypo lump... so it was faster... Interesting that both times I was on 200 mcg..... but this time I had 3 grain of natural on top of it.... Gonna sit down and go through my records one of these days and see what patterns I see..... I keep remembering as I'd see each new doc and explain the increasing list of symptoms and how much worse they were... and the weight gain... no one looked at anything... all said it was either in my head, or exaggerated, or my own doing from over eating/laziness/lack of responsibility. No change in dose, no change in med... nothing... just always blamed on me. ... .maybe it's me.. but I think there is something wrong with that. I, the patient, the one paying them to help, gets insulted and accused and blamed... and they never check to see if it is me or not... just say that it is and send me away.... .... and yeah... got to say it again... the one doc that called me a 'smart ass' and hung up on me when he goofed up the dose and I questioned it.... I admit, the fantasy picture that they paint... take this one little pill every morning and you'll be perfectly normal... boy, would it be cool if that were true! But the percentage of folks that do have that fantasy come true is so very very very tiny that it SUCKS! But they do exist.. and that is cool.... but darn... some of us aren't that lucky and we have to go searching for docs (or go it on our own) to get decent treatment/dosing/care/understanding/quality of life.... sigh... I'm a self treater, doing better, even with this last backslide, then I ever did with the docs. Why is that? They have all this education and all I did research on the Internet and talk with other folks that knew stuff that I was learning.... How can those of us here know so much more than so many of them do? Is it cuz we care and they don't? Or do we get back to the 'all they care about is lining their pockets' thing?? sigh... just about time for bed... Gonna do my stretches and get me some shut eye... Topper () On Sun, 9 Jul 2006 16:09:33 -0700 (PDT) E Gillespie writes: Topper: Thanks for the EXTRA..sweet response. You are just TOO Cool! I love your notes... I'm not Peeved at you!!! Not a chance.. Yeah...I know what you mean when you say that you aquired an anti-synthetic stance after you were so grossly undermedicated. I HAVE quite a bone to pick with the doctors who did that to me too. I had many fights (went through ten doctors) just trying to get to taking Armour and getting the right size pills....the whole madness was just REALLY terrible. Thankfully that is all behind me.... So,.,In the end when I realized I had a limit on how little synthetic I could take....the quest was on to find the combo... And...I had to relent and realize that a tool is a tool...and if you have it handy you might as well go ahead and use it...even if the Devil himself hands it to you. You gave me extra insight..(always looking for puzzle peices) into how the synthetic replacement for your Armour gave you tendon issues. I can see now..that is what happens to me when I'm too high with it. YOU explained that beautifully too. Can't thank you enough. As far as the equivalencies are concerned...I've really come to understanding how those charts can ONLY provide a guideline. I think I have found the flaw in them...AND realize too that I have to build in that extra guess factor when doing the math. I KNOW that if I want to go up with the Armour (which HAS to be over 101.5)..I can't have more than 60 mcgs of Synthroid there.I can't go up with the Armour cuz I feel hyper (EVEN AS I REMAIN HYPO)...but that goes away as soon as I move some of that Synthroid out of the way. The Synthroid is too high there at 60 mcgs..and I know that because it smushes me and give me pains with Stiffman's disease. This is BIG news to me...just found that out!!!! So...I must move the Synthroid..down, but ...I have no way of knowing how far down I can go...only it can't be below 50 mcgs. This I'm sure of. The reason why I have this headbanger (BRAIN-DEADNESS) this last week is because I broke THAT rule unintentionally. It sounds like you are still feeling the effects of your experiement...and that's what has you bouncing around. YES...I do believe it might be hard for you without a gland to enjoy great conversion...but its not just that. I think YOU need to have some straight natural to just give it to you cuz you are glandless. AS you say...maybe those T2's T1's...do help the brain...and settle your "OCD." We just still don't have the whole story on what that stuff does for us. I'll bet when we find out more about those things we will find the half-life to be much shorter than t4 too. Thanks Again!! ~E:) PS: You are so smart...and Iove how you work it round like a Rubick's cube... Quote
Guest guest Posted July 9, 2006 Report Posted July 9, 2006 In the years that I've been working with puters, with all the work I do with puters, for all the puters that I have, and have had.... crashes are inevitable, it's a fact of computer life... I do automated backups now.. that covers a LOT and saves a lot of work, generally I never lose more than the last 24 hours of anything, usually less than that. If I'm working on a specific project, like the websites or the book or whatever, I can do automated backups in five minute increments, that's really cool! What totally messes me up is when I have a lockup or crash right after downloading an email packet.... what I've just downloaded isn't backed up... and that is what I end up trying to recover... which can be a mess when you are dealing with the hundreds of emails I get a day between the groups and those that come to me directly... My first morning email download ranges between 100 and 150 emails... that's just what has come in since I shut down the night before... usually around 9 pm... and then pick up at about 5:30 am.... sigh... computers are SUCH FUN!!! ... that said... it looks like I have space for another.... I'll be setting it up using cast offs.... so another freebie.... Just haven't decided what it's use will be... Each of the puters has a specific purpose/use.... ( If only I could combine them all into one bodacious laptop..... then I'd be cookin! hehehehehehe) But I like the convenience of multiple machines, after you've been multi-tasking on five or six machines at the same time, multi-tasking on a single machine seems boring.... oh no... I'm going GEEKY!!!! Topper () aka ThyroGeek *who's current backup routine is set for 7 am, 7:30 am, 8 am, 8:30 am, 9 am, 9:30 am, 10 am, 4 pm, 5 pm and 8:15 pm with manual email backups done one or two times over these on the main machine... and manual backups on the rest of them* On Sun, 09 Jul 2006 17:31:41 -0500 jytdtp writes: HI Topper,I notice the very few times I had a real computer crash, everything went off for me—I make my living by computers so it’s a really big deal when one of my crashes — I had one pre-hypo and one post — and both times set me back a couple of weeks really til I was sure I got everything back the way it was, or really, the way it needed to be post-crash.Just a thought that popped up when reading your post.. I think I am in a “zen” mood on this one :)Sue Quote
Guest guest Posted July 10, 2006 Report Posted July 10, 2006 To answer your question I am subclinical hyper..never been on Armour..I have been lowering Iodine levels to try and control symptoms..never been on Synthroid either.. Doc did do a trial run on PTU which is an antithyroid drug in which I rashed to immediately 60 mcgs Synthroid /120 mgs Armour APRIL TSH... .01 T3F (230-420) 568 /178% T4F (.08-1.8) 1.9 /106% ------------------------------------------------------------------- 62.5 mcgs Synthroid /90 mgs Armour FEB.. TSH.. .02 ******BAD...should be suppressed T3F (320-420) 469 /126% T4F (.59-1.17) 1.29 /121% April equals..136 mcg of T4 and 18 mcg of T3..( 1 grain of Armour contains 38 mcg of T4 and 9 mcg of T3) Feb equals...119.5 mcg of T4 and 13.5 mcg of T3.. Now your ranges are different so the percentages help to give a comparison.. Going Feb to April.. your T3 increased 4.5 mcg, so a 33% increase in T3 meds gave you a 41% increase in your T3 levels. Going Feb to April..your T4 increased 16.5 mcg, so a 14% increase in T4 meds gave you a 12% decrease in your T4 levels. What has changed form Feb -April? Is your iron spaced 4 hours from any thyroid meds? Iron and calcium work at a cellular level to bind directly with T4, Armour does contain T4 so with multidosing T4 you need to make sure you take the iron with a 4 hour gap.. so for you I would say bedtime.. T4 is the storage hormone, the body converts T4 to T3 on a as needed basis.. the T3 you are getting direct but as you know it has a short half life and you need the T4 to pick up during those times.. Things I am thinking about.. Some reason the T4 conversion slowed down..why? Iron, Multi, Estrogen binding with hormones? T4 taken an hour before anything so high stomach acid can break down the synthetic T4? Armour? What strength pill do you have? Would spacing the Armour 3 hours apart instead of 4 give you a lower put more steady level of T3? Did you take meds before labs? Kats3boys Quote
Guest guest Posted July 10, 2006 Report Posted July 10, 2006 To answer your question I am subclinical hyper..never been on Armour..I have been lowering Iodine levels to try and control symptoms..never been on Synthroid either.. Doc did do a trial run on PTU which is an antithyroid drug in which I rashed to immediately 60 mcgs Synthroid /120 mgs Armour APRIL TSH... .01 T3F (230-420) 568 /178% T4F (.08-1.8) 1.9 /106% ------------------------------------------------------------------- 62.5 mcgs Synthroid /90 mgs Armour FEB.. TSH.. .02 ******BAD...should be suppressed T3F (320-420) 469 /126% T4F (.59-1.17) 1.29 /121% April equals..136 mcg of T4 and 18 mcg of T3..( 1 grain of Armour contains 38 mcg of T4 and 9 mcg of T3) Feb equals...119.5 mcg of T4 and 13.5 mcg of T3.. Now your ranges are different so the percentages help to give a comparison.. Going Feb to April.. your T3 increased 4.5 mcg, so a 33% increase in T3 meds gave you a 41% increase in your T3 levels. Going Feb to April..your T4 increased 16.5 mcg, so a 14% increase in T4 meds gave you a 12% decrease in your T4 levels. What has changed form Feb -April? Is your iron spaced 4 hours from any thyroid meds? Iron and calcium work at a cellular level to bind directly with T4, Armour does contain T4 so with multidosing T4 you need to make sure you take the iron with a 4 hour gap.. so for you I would say bedtime.. T4 is the storage hormone, the body converts T4 to T3 on a as needed basis.. the T3 you are getting direct but as you know it has a short half life and you need the T4 to pick up during those times.. Things I am thinking about.. Some reason the T4 conversion slowed down..why? Iron, Multi, Estrogen binding with hormones? T4 taken an hour before anything so high stomach acid can break down the synthetic T4? Armour? What strength pill do you have? Would spacing the Armour 3 hours apart instead of 4 give you a lower put more steady level of T3? Did you take meds before labs? Kats3boys Quote
Guest guest Posted July 10, 2006 Report Posted July 10, 2006 all the ranges need reviewing, taken into considertion the advanced knowledge of this disease that we now have. And all this bleating about hyper symtoms... Here I'm going to be thoroughly unPC - with no apologies - and say that I do wonder if they really are hyper symptoms people are suffering ????? Concidering hypo sympotms resemble so closely hypo symptoms, and considering that I had them all with a TSH of 9.5, you'll forgive me if I have my doubts and refuse to let anyone - but anyone - tell me I'm hyper, when my body is screaming HYPO !!!!! Understand how they came up with lab ranges.. they took a group of people, excluded anyone with a KNOWN thyroid disorder..tested everyone and then excluded the 5 percent on each side..so no they even admit those with out thyroid disease have 5 % that fall either above ro below the range.. As far as hyper goes, yeah there is a difference, I sit here with a cloth to keep wiping off my mouse as my hands are sweaty..I can get 2 hours sleep at night and be ready to go and run in the morning. I always let my nails be the judge for me though. If I need to trim them more than once a week I know I am riding hyper.. But hyper symptoms can be misleading for some.. the reason I keep saying slow and steady and one step at a time.. Some people even more than others are sensitive to thyroid level changes.. In the eldery or those with known heart disease, treatment choice is to go slow starting at 25 mcg, too quick and it can cause heart attacks etc. Will it still leave them hypo yeah.. 100 mcg will still leave them hypo..but the body's reaction to a large influx of hormones causes enough stress on the body to be a concern for those deemed at risk. So they do 25, then 50 , then 75 then 100..easier on the body.. Now just because you are not 90 does not mean going from 0-100 at the sametime is going to be an easier on your body.. you are going to feel it..even more so if you are dealing with T3. Kats3boys Quote
Guest guest Posted July 10, 2006 Report Posted July 10, 2006 Hi ya Topper, I love computers – glitches and all Luckily I am on Macs, though, so viruses are rarely a worry — there’s enough else that need be done and maintained! I have to admit, I don’t back up near as often as I should and I do a lot of layout, design and typesetting daily — I need to change that and just do it. But I do know each time it’s crashed, I do have to reload a lot of software, enter serial numbers, test printers, etc... And I have that nagging feeling that “something’s missing” so that was my first impression when yours correlated with your crash... Just one of those, “hey maybe it’s more simple then we realize” kind of things... Hope you are feeling better now – I have felt a bit more tired already since my T3 was lowered that 5mcg so I may just throw it back in -- Sue In the years that I've been working with puters, with all the work I do with puters, for all the puters that I have, and have had.... crashes are inevitable, it's a fact of computer life... I do automated backups now.. that covers a LOT and saves a lot of work, generally I never lose more than the last 24 hours of anything, usually less than that. If I'm working on a specific project, like the websites or the book or whatever, I can do automated backups in five minute increments, that's really cool! What totally messes me up is when I have a lockup or crash right after downloading an email packet.... what I've just downloaded isn't backed up... and that is what I end up trying to recover... which can be a mess when you are dealing with the hundreds of emails I get a day between the groups and those that come to me directly... My first morning email download ranges between 100 and 150 emails... that's just what has come in since I shut down the night before... usually around 9 pm... and then pick up at about 5:30 am.... sigh... computers are SUCH FUN!!! ... that said... it looks like I have space for another.... I'll be setting it up using cast offs.... so another freebie.... Just haven't decided what it's use will be... Each of the puters has a specific purpose/use.... ( If only I could combine them all into one bodacious laptop..... then I'd be cookin! hehehehehehe) But I like the convenience of multiple machines, after you've been multi-tasking on five or six machines at the same time, multi-tasking on a single machine seems boring.... oh no... I'm going GEEKY!!!! Topper () aka ThyroGeek *who's current backup routine is set for 7 am, 7:30 am, 8 am, 8:30 am, 9 am, 9:30 am, 10 am, 4 pm, 5 pm and 8:15 pm with manual email backups done one or two times over these on the main machine... and manual backups on the rest of them* Quote
Guest guest Posted July 13, 2006 Report Posted July 13, 2006 WOW...you are interesting case...PTU...which you get rash from? Now..you take nothing but feel okay? > ~E:) PTU is an antithyroid drug, and yeah that I rashed out on..for the most part I am doing ok as long as I stay away from Iodine and actually I do take one thing a B-Complex and I also try to eat protien at each meal as I found it helps with the muscles.. I tend to run a cycle, the week before my monthly I go hyper, and then after my cycle it drops back down..have not noticed a hypo swing yet though.. and about every 3rd month the swing is worse..but given my options I ride it out..hoping my body corrects itself or makes up its mind.. My problem is I have allergies, especially a chemical senstivity type allergies..since the whole thyroid thing my allergies are getting worse.. if I go hyper and stay hyper they will try Tapazole the other antithyroid med..considering it is chemically structured similair to Sulphites ( so is PTU) and Sulphites usually land me in the hospital I have about a 50% chance ( more like 90% with my history) of that happening with Tap also. RAI is not an option for me even as far as my doctors are concerned because since avoiding iodine and adding it back in, I am highly sensitive ( probabley allergic) to it, but waiting on the allergist to do teating but after my last challenge test with the allergist he will only test me in the hospital which takes a while to get in so for now they are assuming I am allergic to it. So the option I am left with is to remove 1/2 my thyroid, which is going to send me to hypo land, and I am not hpyer enough for them to do that yet.. Hope this makes sense, my thyroid is diffusely enlarged, so no nodules, antibodies for both Grave's and Hashimoto's but low testing meaning neither one is active..and FNA to rule out Hashimoto's. My TSH is 0.92..but for some reason my FT4 is at the top of the range, bouncing back and forth, back and forth.. So for now it is watch and see if my thyroid calms down or if I go hypo naturally or if they need to surgically make me hypo. Kats3boys Quote
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