Re: Off Topic - atheist and agnostic

October 6, 2001

> >

> > How do atheist and agnostic's view subjects such

> > as relationships, marriage, children and family?

Its been my experience that people who were raised by

atheist/agnostic parents are as perplexed by religious people as

religious people are perplexed by godless people.

October 6, 2001

> >

> > How do atheist and agnostic's view subjects such

> > as relationships, marriage, children and family?

Its been my experience that people who were raised by

atheist/agnostic parents are as perplexed by religious people as

religious people are perplexed by godless people.

October 6, 2001

> >

> > How do atheist and agnostic's view subjects such

> > as relationships, marriage, children and family?

Its been my experience that people who were raised by

atheist/agnostic parents are as perplexed by religious people as

religious people are perplexed by godless people.

October 7, 2001

Nettie!

I was just thinking about our recent spat of missives about

religion. I started typing some things I thought about a friend,

which I will include below, since I don't know what to call the

topic... it is really just a ramble... but some of the things you

said in your most recent posts (that I have yet to answer) are in

the same ball park.

> >

> > There are others like me who are seriously radical agnostics,

whose

> agnosticism harmonizes

> > well with what I have already spoken of as " Renegade Buddhism " ;

and

> Discordianism, which I

> > think I haven't spoken of, and probably won't.

> >

> Hi ,

> Think i'm now a atheist, but want to be a agnostic.

> Maybe not....it gets to complicated.

>

> > I had once said that I was an atheist and an agnostic, and I was

> told I could be one or

> > the other, but not both.

> >

> > I disagree. It depends on how the atheism is held.

> >

> Kinda agree - if i take the agnostic approach,

> then what, i have to live as if there might be a

> God. Hell, that don't sound like no fun-it's a

> joke.

> Seriously - looking at all my conditioning - what

> a mess....i can think one way, then guilt tries to

> sway me back the other way. It's like leave me alone,

> this is how i want to live...and why is that wrong,

> just because it goes against what most people i know

> think. It's quite a fight. Never knew revaluating

> was so complicated.

I think it was and I who had this discussion a few weeks

ago. While it is hard to argue with what she said above, it is a

lot easier to say, " no single label applies to anyone. " And

agnostic and atheist are just labels like alocholic or Christian or

Jewish and they have actually very little to do with the human being

they are applied to and are seldom very accurate. In the past,

said one can be agnostic and Christian at the same time (using

similar logic to what she just showed you), which I guess is what

one of my friends is trying to do (as seen in my ramble below).

The fight is hard, but gets easier as you learn how to do it, as

you become more trusting of yourself and less trusting of people who

claim to " know " things but offer no evidence. The reevaluating is

complicated, and never-ending, I believe. Just like you never

finish growing, and you never finish " recovery " , I don't think you

will ever stop wondering about what is going on (with any possible

god type thing, and also with wondering what has religion (or AA, or

the world in general) done to your mind - and you'll find new things

from time to time that you hadn't noticed before, c'est la vie!)

I think most people like to have something they can neatly file

away in a folder marked " this is what I believe " and then they try

to never bring it up again, and really do dislike anything that

makes them question those beliefs they have chosen to accept. They

are misologists - most (I assume all) of the people in the world

are, though they won't admit it often... just like racists don't

admit they are racists.... it is always someone else, but not " me. "

They don't want to find the errors in their thinking - they

prefer not to require further thinking, and so they build that wall

around their brain - become close-minded, they don't want to think

about it, nor admit they " do not know " or " can not know. " A person

who chooses not to think, to reason, who accepts anything without

evidence and without question is a misologist.

Its a pain in the ass not to be a misologist, but I admit (unlike

the millions of others who hide many things from themselves, and in

addition have many things they won't admit to themselves or others)

that I (most unfortunately) am a misologist, too... I try not to be,

part of not being one, is being open to the fact that I am one and

want to change every misological trait I have... these traits were

pounded into me since day one both intentionally and unwittingly, so

I know they are there... and I would be far too grandiose and/or

naive to believe I have ridded myself of them all.

I just wrote a lot, and you haven't even seen what I intended to

post yet.

> > I, OTOH, do not know. I radically do not know. That makes me an

, that is really well said. I radically do not know either.

And I am trying radically to get it accross to other people that

they don't know either... but they sure like to think they do know.

If there weren't so many of them, they would certainly be the

radicals... just shows what a backasswards world we live in.

> Cause all the above am thinking about.

> Running into a few snags.

I have no pretensions to marriage, haven't since middle school.

To me it is an accessory to religion. My sister's grandfather was

born 103 years before her, so I am in no hurry to procreate. 911

emergency, help, I'm in trouble (coincidence, hell no)... GW must

feel like the star in the movie who has to cut the correct wire to

defuse the bomb... if he picks the wrong wire he may very well be

known as the man in charge when the greatest empire ever known to

man tumbled to the ground more loudly than Rome or the twin

towers... 3,000 nukes destroying at least 40% of the US population

in less than 15 minutes... our ability is greater than our

enemies'... but their's is " sufficient " ... not a good time to have a

kid. And this ain't a movie. I do not want my progeny to be

mortal, much less do I want to survive them. I think that people

who understand our position are much less critical of our President

than those who are still hungry with bloodlust, but a lot of us

choose not to accept reality. We are, as I said before,

misologists; prefering to believe we are invincible instead of

accept the fact that we are in imminent danger. The " only " super-

power. Ten foot tall and bullet proof. God bless America.

> > Now, atheism and agnosticism in AA is *definitely* on topic.

Just

> try being an atheist or

> > agnostic there. You'll really have to dance around to keep

those

> people from kicking your

> > butt.....

> >

> Think i'll pass...

> But really liked your reply

Not much more so than anywhere else. Its funny that

brought up " I radically do not know " because I became aware of the

same thing while I was in AA... while they were telling me to figure

out who or what my higher power was, I became more and more

convinced that I did not know - that I could not know. I guess it

backfired in this case. AA seems to backfire a lot. Anyway, so

does religion in general and here is what was on my mind that I

wanted to share with someone... let me know if I should share it

with the person it talks about:

My friend and I were arguing today about him going to church... I

didn't say everything I thought, but I will write it now. I think

his wife has him wrapped around her finger. When we were younger he

came to me about whether there was a god or not, and I told him

everything I could think of that supported the fact that there is no

god or at least no judeochristian type god that most of the English

speaking world claims exists (at that time in my life I had a lot of

arguments, too, many more than I could readily share now). He tells

me now that he agrees with me, and I do not remember if he did at

the time or not... he was open minded when we had that talk, and was

very much questioning his faith and also I could see that it was

painful for him to be doing so, to let go of his childhood

delusions... I don't think there was any final outcome that day, but

since then he has professed not to believe on a few occasions... but

as he has gotten married (to a religious girl who was raised

religiously) he is now going to church again... he justifies it by

saying he doesn't believe the God part, but that he just sees it as

a chance once a week to reflect on life and a chance to learn from

the " sermon " even if it does include some things he does not agree

with.

To me, going to a church to hear some speech, which contains a

small amount of useful information and some more stuff that you

don't believe, is equivalent to asking a racist person what we shoud

do about racism... you will get an answer that doesn't quite fit - a

biased answer, sure he might say one old worn out thing

like, " everyone has to do their part to end racism, " and then

everything else he says blames the other race for racism, which is

of no use. It is the same with going to church, being told life is

great, and being expected to praise god because life is so great,

and if it isn't great it is because there is something wrong with

your relationship with god (whom my friend says he doesn't believe

in).

What I want to ask him is: why not find something that gives him

that, something that aids his search for truth or something that is

beneficial to his lifestyle or whatever it is he gets from those

sermons, but without the parts he disagrees with? Isn't it possible

to read any book on Sunday morning and learn just as much as one

learns by going to church? Of course...

So I must calculate that he has more reasons than he has said to

attend a church that believes in and promotes things he disagrees

with. Well, his wife must be one of those things - his mother and

his family, in-laws and all, as well. Whereas I had the guts to

say, " its a bunch of bullshit that I don't need! " and in so doing

practically estranged all of my loved ones until they finally

realized I was " for real " , he has been unable to say that. After a

few years of ignoring my very own parents and many others because

they refused to allow me to be free in my thoughts, they have

finally accepted that I have chosen to be free and I do not tolerate

any of that foolishness. Because of my decision and the pain of the

actions I took, most of them are closer to realizing what

foolishness their religion is, too. I thought I made a painful

choice, and perhaps painful to my loved ones as well, but certainly

far less painful than living a lie for the rest of my life, and

knowingly becoming swept up and consumed by that indomitable lie...

so I made the hard choice early on, and paid for it, and I am free

because of it... I chose to be free. What good is a country that

gives you freedom to believe whatever you want, if your own loved

ones don't give you that same freedom? And he has a newborn, born

this week, who is going to be brought up in this shitty church

environment. And, sadly, within a few years of regular attendance

and hearing all the crap/dogma he will question himself so much that

he can not leave the church and can no longer trust or believe his

own knowledge... he will be " suckered in. " Yet, he is a smart

person... his wife barely even questioned her crazy religion but he

did, and I guess he had some reasons to. But even the ignorant can

sucker the intelligent this way. He and his manipulative wife will

raise their daughter to talk to herself before she goes to sleep at

night, but worse than that, she will be taught that something is

listening and acting upon what she says, although there is not and

never has been any evidence that anything is listening. And the lie

goes on for another generation, and many more to follow, simply

because a person who is smart and wise enough to realize it is a

hoax is not courageous or strong enough to do anything about it.

Millions of people are doing and billions have done the exact same

thing he is going to do. Few haven't; those who haven't are the

few, the proud, the free.

" ANYONE WHO WOULD GIVE UP LIBERTY

FOR SECURITY DESERVES NEITHER. "

~ BEN FRANKLIN

October 7, 2001