Good Bye

August 11, 2001

> > > > > P.S. To above.

> > > > >

> > > > > I don't doubt the sincerity of those in LSR/SOS who had a

> > coffee

> > > > pot and

> > > > > resentment and started a new meeting. I do question how

far

> > > > removed

> > > > > they are from the meetings they left even if they've made

some

> > > > changes

> > > > > in language, completely wiping out the religious and

keeping

> > the AA

> > > > > science and alcohol as Devil Drink. I can understand the

> > > > attraction of

> > > > > genetics and " physiological differences. " It confers

> > innocence on

> > > > > repeated bad behavior while drunk. Just stop drinking,

which

> > one

> > > > wants

> > > > > to do anyway, and one not only has that benefit, but all

bad

> > > > behavior

> > > > > can be ascribed to " it, " the disease, Devil Drink, genes,

> > however

> > > > it is

> > > > > termed. Perhaps that is where much of the need to

proseletyze

> > > > comes

> > > > > from.

>

> Ken, you've already shown you don't know a damn thing about LSR or

SOS, in

> my opinion, and I'm sure others who are in one or the other or

both.

> > > >

>

> > > > They believe alcohol is Devil Drink (and a million other

> > > > assumptions) because it suits them and since they have a

false

> > > > belief, they must convince others of it to continue

believing it.

> More bullshit. I've never heard that phrase online or f2f at LSR

or SOS.

> Pure ignorant bullshit.

> Steve

Devil Drink is a phrase to describe the attitude that alcohol

is " bad. " You know like computers are bad, technology is bad... in

your case, science is bad. And that attitude (not the phrase

itself, you dolt) that alcohol is bad is supported by just about any

group that deals with " alcoholism " that I have ever had the

slightest exposure to. So grow up youngun. And for more bullshit

(that is assumptions that suit your type) let me remind you of the

disease theory, the gene bullshit and all the other shit you've made

up and decided to take as fact.

August 11, 2001

Cool-

This is actually funny. I always thought it odd that an apparently

intelligent individual wrote on a fifth grade level. But in aa, you know,

criticizing the bb is well, you know, the the most terrible thing, and you

know it means you have a shitty program, and you know it means that you're

guilty of " contempt prior to investigation " and your mind is closed, and boy

are you more fucked up than you thought in the first place...

Jan

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

--------------------------------------------

In a message dated 8/11/01 8:42:26 PM Central Daylight Time,

cool_guy@... writes:

<< Also, something I wish I could learn from Bill is to write with

his style that is so readable for functionally illiterate people.

It is not so easy actually - he must have been blessed with it!

>>

August 11, 2001

Cool-

This is actually funny. I always thought it odd that an apparently

intelligent individual wrote on a fifth grade level. But in aa, you know,

criticizing the bb is well, you know, the the most terrible thing, and you

know it means you have a shitty program, and you know it means that you're

guilty of " contempt prior to investigation " and your mind is closed, and boy

are you more fucked up than you thought in the first place...

Jan

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

--------------------------------------------

In a message dated 8/11/01 8:42:26 PM Central Daylight Time,

cool_guy@... writes:

<< Also, something I wish I could learn from Bill is to write with

his style that is so readable for functionally illiterate people.

It is not so easy actually - he must have been blessed with it!

>>

August 11, 2001

Cool-

This is actually funny. I always thought it odd that an apparently

intelligent individual wrote on a fifth grade level. But in aa, you know,

criticizing the bb is well, you know, the the most terrible thing, and you

know it means you have a shitty program, and you know it means that you're

guilty of " contempt prior to investigation " and your mind is closed, and boy

are you more fucked up than you thought in the first place...

Jan

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

--------------------------------------------

In a message dated 8/11/01 8:42:26 PM Central Daylight Time,

cool_guy@... writes:

<< Also, something I wish I could learn from Bill is to write with

his style that is so readable for functionally illiterate people.

It is not so easy actually - he must have been blessed with it!

>>

August 11, 2001

Re: Good Bye And I'll ask you the same thing I asked Steve -- what percentage of uninterested coercees who reject LSR's philosophy would be your personally comfortable limit at a given meeting? -- could you handle 10%? 30%? 75%? What if you attended a meeting with 5 newcomers, yourself, and 50 uninterested coercees who were reading the newspaper and listening to Walkmans? Would that be a worthwhile meeting for anyone that night?~RitaHi Rita: Duaine M here: You speak of this pretend meeting as if it would be some thing we couldn't handle. I can and have handled most any thing. I have been in jail meetings where I wasn't wanted. I didn't know it at the time but caught on fast. I gave them the info on what SOS was. Each person is the leader in their own life. Each person takes responsibility for their own life. We give them only support. Support in recovery Support in Abstinence. It's their choice. It's up to each of us to find our own path. If that path is no meetings no groups we in SOS celebrate that decision. That was the last forced group I went to. They stooped them. I did something. I stopped Forced groups in the Jail. I did some thing. Maybe My getting off my ass and doing some thing makes a difference. The SOS meeting have freed the people who use them. They are free to move on with their life. Free to not be tied to any group or person. If they are looking for a sober life. We have nothing to offer the ones who want to keep on doping. They need to form their own group. KOD Keep On Doping

August 11, 2001

Re: Good Bye And I'll ask you the same thing I asked Steve -- what percentage of uninterested coercees who reject LSR's philosophy would be your personally comfortable limit at a given meeting? -- could you handle 10%? 30%? 75%? What if you attended a meeting with 5 newcomers, yourself, and 50 uninterested coercees who were reading the newspaper and listening to Walkmans? Would that be a worthwhile meeting for anyone that night?~RitaHi Rita: Duaine M here: You speak of this pretend meeting as if it would be some thing we couldn't handle. I can and have handled most any thing. I have been in jail meetings where I wasn't wanted. I didn't know it at the time but caught on fast. I gave them the info on what SOS was. Each person is the leader in their own life. Each person takes responsibility for their own life. We give them only support. Support in recovery Support in Abstinence. It's their choice. It's up to each of us to find our own path. If that path is no meetings no groups we in SOS celebrate that decision. That was the last forced group I went to. They stooped them. I did something. I stopped Forced groups in the Jail. I did some thing. Maybe My getting off my ass and doing some thing makes a difference. The SOS meeting have freed the people who use them. They are free to move on with their life. Free to not be tied to any group or person. If they are looking for a sober life. We have nothing to offer the ones who want to keep on doping. They need to form their own group. KOD Keep On Doping

August 11, 2001

Re: Good Bye And I'll ask you the same thing I asked Steve -- what percentage of uninterested coercees who reject LSR's philosophy would be your personally comfortable limit at a given meeting? -- could you handle 10%? 30%? 75%? What if you attended a meeting with 5 newcomers, yourself, and 50 uninterested coercees who were reading the newspaper and listening to Walkmans? Would that be a worthwhile meeting for anyone that night?~RitaHi Rita: Duaine M here: You speak of this pretend meeting as if it would be some thing we couldn't handle. I can and have handled most any thing. I have been in jail meetings where I wasn't wanted. I didn't know it at the time but caught on fast. I gave them the info on what SOS was. Each person is the leader in their own life. Each person takes responsibility for their own life. We give them only support. Support in recovery Support in Abstinence. It's their choice. It's up to each of us to find our own path. If that path is no meetings no groups we in SOS celebrate that decision. That was the last forced group I went to. They stooped them. I did something. I stopped Forced groups in the Jail. I did some thing. Maybe My getting off my ass and doing some thing makes a difference. The SOS meeting have freed the people who use them. They are free to move on with their life. Free to not be tied to any group or person. If they are looking for a sober life. We have nothing to offer the ones who want to keep on doping. They need to form their own group. KOD Keep On Doping

August 11, 2001

Steve Snyder wrote:

> > Just one more point. I'm curious on how 30-40 percent of members " owe

> > their lives to AA " and _don't_ seriously steer group dynamics.

> >

> > Ken Ragge

>

> Nobody said 30-40 pct " owe their lives " to AA... just that they are involved

> in both AA and LSR.. more smears from you, Ken.

> And as to why they don't " steer group dynamics, " since you've obviously

> never seriously investigated, you wouldn't know.

> Steve

>

Steve,

Actually, someone from LSR in private email said just that, only in that

person's experience it was 40%. It seems we have someone from LSR smearing LSR,

not even counting you.

Ken Ragge

August 11, 2001

Steve Snyder wrote:

> > Just one more point. I'm curious on how 30-40 percent of members " owe

> > their lives to AA " and _don't_ seriously steer group dynamics.

> >

> > Ken Ragge

>

> Nobody said 30-40 pct " owe their lives " to AA... just that they are involved

> in both AA and LSR.. more smears from you, Ken.

> And as to why they don't " steer group dynamics, " since you've obviously

> never seriously investigated, you wouldn't know.

> Steve

>

Steve,

Actually, someone from LSR in private email said just that, only in that

person's experience it was 40%. It seems we have someone from LSR smearing LSR,

not even counting you.

Ken Ragge

August 11, 2001

Steve:

I'm much less amused with you than I was formerly. Who died and made you God?

Jan

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In a message dated 8/11/01 9:59:55 PM Central Daylight Time,

steverino63@... writes:

<< Wrong, Ken was telling lies about SOS... and of course, I'm sure you know

about " psycho " and " babble " whenever you open your mouth, Cool Guy.

Steve >>

August 11, 2001

Steve Snyder wrote:

> >

> > I don't doubt the sincerity of those in LSR/SOS who had a coffee pot and

> > resentment and started a new meeting. I do question how far removed

> > they are from the meetings they left even if they've made some changes

> > in language, completely wiping out the religious and keeping the AA

> > science and alcohol as Devil Drink. I can understand the attraction of

> > genetics and " physiological differences. " It confers innocence on

> > repeated bad behavior while drunk. Just stop drinking, which one wants

> > to do anyway, and one not only has that benefit, but all bad behavior

> > can be ascribed to " it, " the disease, Devil Drink, genes, however it is

> > termed. Perhaps that is where much of the need to proseletyze comes

> > from.

> >

> > Ken

>

> I've never heard the words " Devil Drink " at online or f2f LSR or SOS. More

> proof of your willful ignorance and your slanderous words, IMO.

> Steve

Steve,

I've don't believe I've ever heard the words " confess one's sins, " or

" proseletyze " in AA meetings. They say " admit defects of character " and

" carry the message. " Same concept, different words. While I'm sure your

favorite " recovery groups " don't use the term Devil Drink, I stand by what

I've said before. Alcohol(ism) is treated as Devil Drink, at least according

to what I've seen on the Internet. .

P.S. On another note, if memory serves me correctly, Ron Roizen or Robin Room

posted about a study of the nature of " alcohol-related " accidents. Not only

did pedestrians who were drunk and stepped out in front of cars make up a

sizeable proportion of those killed, when you boil it down to what is so

horrible to all of us, drunk drivers killing other people, pedestrians or

occupants of other cars or children they take with them, it comes to about

3000 out of 17,000 or 24,000 or whatever the number of alcohol-related traffic

fatalities in a year.

I don't remember exactly when the discussion was on addict-l but I'm sure if

you are interested, if you would ask on the addict-l list, someone could point

you to it.

Ken Ragge

August 11, 2001