Good Bye

[Guest guest]

Cool:

I wasn't trying to insult you by providing the definition of erudite. I

personally like Ken R. because his book literally set me free from aa, and

any other groups. I do like being supportive of people, but I don't believe

that friendships formed on common problems are very healthy. Groupers would

no doubt reply that they form friendships based on common solutions.

Whatever. I don't like Steve's continuous bashing of Ken R. I have a

sneaking suspicion that Ken doesn't give a shit though.

Jan

[Guest guest]

Cool:

I wasn't trying to insult you by providing the definition of erudite. I

personally like Ken R. because his book literally set me free from aa, and

any other groups. I do like being supportive of people, but I don't believe

that friendships formed on common problems are very healthy. Groupers would

no doubt reply that they form friendships based on common solutions.

Whatever. I don't like Steve's continuous bashing of Ken R. I have a

sneaking suspicion that Ken doesn't give a shit though.

Jan

[Guest guest]

Cool:

I wasn't trying to insult you by providing the definition of erudite. I

personally like Ken R. because his book literally set me free from aa, and

any other groups. I do like being supportive of people, but I don't believe

that friendships formed on common problems are very healthy. Groupers would

no doubt reply that they form friendships based on common solutions.

Whatever. I don't like Steve's continuous bashing of Ken R. I have a

sneaking suspicion that Ken doesn't give a shit though.

Jan

[Guest guest]

> Hi Rita:

> Duaine M here:

> You don't get it. You just don't get it. I don't think you ever

----- Original Message -----

> From: rita66@w...

> And I'll ask you the same thing I asked Steve -- what

percentage of uninterested coercees who reject LSR's philosophy

would be your personally comfortable limit at a given meeting? --

could you handle 10%? 30%? 75%? What if you attended a meeting

with 5 newcomers, yourself, and 50 uninterested coercees who were

reading the newspaper and listening to Walkmans? Would that be a

worthwhile meeting for anyone that night?

>

> ~Rita

I am curious about your answer to this question Duaine... on

coerced meeting attendance - that is when people are forced to go to

meetings. Whether the meeting is AA, SOS, LSR or whatever, will the

meeting do the people that attend it any good, if the vast majority

are there against their own will? How many people will constitute a

worthwile meeting versus a meeting that is a waste of everyone's

time?

I am not against SOS or any of these other AA alternatives, but I

am against people being sent to meeting of any kind against there

will.

Enough about that, please tell me how SOS helps people to quit or

moderate drinking. I want to learn more about it. Thanks

[Guest guest]

> Hi Rita:

> Duaine M here:

> You don't get it. You just don't get it. I don't think you ever

----- Original Message -----

> From: rita66@w...

> And I'll ask you the same thing I asked Steve -- what

percentage of uninterested coercees who reject LSR's philosophy

would be your personally comfortable limit at a given meeting? --

could you handle 10%? 30%? 75%? What if you attended a meeting

with 5 newcomers, yourself, and 50 uninterested coercees who were

reading the newspaper and listening to Walkmans? Would that be a

worthwhile meeting for anyone that night?

>

> ~Rita

I am curious about your answer to this question Duaine... on

coerced meeting attendance - that is when people are forced to go to

meetings. Whether the meeting is AA, SOS, LSR or whatever, will the

meeting do the people that attend it any good, if the vast majority

are there against their own will? How many people will constitute a

worthwile meeting versus a meeting that is a waste of everyone's

time?

I am not against SOS or any of these other AA alternatives, but I

am against people being sent to meeting of any kind against there

will.

Enough about that, please tell me how SOS helps people to quit or

moderate drinking. I want to learn more about it. Thanks

[Guest guest]

> Hi Rita:

> Duaine M here:

> You don't get it. You just don't get it. I don't think you ever

----- Original Message -----

> From: rita66@w...

> And I'll ask you the same thing I asked Steve -- what

percentage of uninterested coercees who reject LSR's philosophy

would be your personally comfortable limit at a given meeting? --

could you handle 10%? 30%? 75%? What if you attended a meeting

with 5 newcomers, yourself, and 50 uninterested coercees who were

reading the newspaper and listening to Walkmans? Would that be a

worthwhile meeting for anyone that night?

>

> ~Rita

I am curious about your answer to this question Duaine... on

coerced meeting attendance - that is when people are forced to go to

meetings. Whether the meeting is AA, SOS, LSR or whatever, will the

meeting do the people that attend it any good, if the vast majority

are there against their own will? How many people will constitute a

worthwile meeting versus a meeting that is a waste of everyone's

time?

I am not against SOS or any of these other AA alternatives, but I

am against people being sent to meeting of any kind against there

will.

Enough about that, please tell me how SOS helps people to quit or

moderate drinking. I want to learn more about it. Thanks

[Guest guest]

I've put too much on the board lately, so i send this direct.

> Cool_Guy:

> Just how cool are you?

Too cool for you ;-)

BTW how cool are you?

> Erudite - learned. Showing great learning.

Yeah I looked it up, but thanks so much. I forgot a word, my

lord. Just like you fell for AA for how many years? No body is

perfect.

> The erudite Ken Ragge is still here. Some people just don't like

his opinion.

> Personally, I don't like most of what I've read here in the last 2

or 3 days,

> or really I'm just rather bored with it, but that's okay - life

goes on. If

> the list fails to fill a sail or two for a long enough time, I'm

free to

> unsubscribe. I do know this - based on on the legal bullshit I've

read -

> I'll never join LSR/SOS. I've already rejected RR as really

irrational, and

> never got around to looking into SMART. I think I'll do what I've

been doing

> - choosing to stay abstinent because I damn well want to.

Are you sure that is what you want? I'd be interested in hearing

reasons why any of those programs doesn't appeal or seems wrong... I

have heard a lot of bashing of all the various groups... AA the most

of course, but I have not read many reasoned criticisms. I'd like

to do that.

> In a message dated 8/11/01 3:44:12 PM Central Daylight Time,

> cool_guy@s... writes:

>

> << > > Where is the " erudite Ken Ragge " that some 12-step-free

groupies

> long for?

>

> I hate it when I forget what erudite means and have to look it up

in

> the dictionary. It just makes me feel so... well, not erudite.

>

> >>

[Guest guest]

I've put too much on the board lately, so i send this direct.

> Cool_Guy:

> Just how cool are you?

Too cool for you ;-)

BTW how cool are you?

> Erudite - learned. Showing great learning.

Yeah I looked it up, but thanks so much. I forgot a word, my

lord. Just like you fell for AA for how many years? No body is

perfect.

> The erudite Ken Ragge is still here. Some people just don't like

his opinion.

> Personally, I don't like most of what I've read here in the last 2

or 3 days,

> or really I'm just rather bored with it, but that's okay - life

goes on. If

> the list fails to fill a sail or two for a long enough time, I'm

free to

> unsubscribe. I do know this - based on on the legal bullshit I've

read -

> I'll never join LSR/SOS. I've already rejected RR as really

irrational, and

> never got around to looking into SMART. I think I'll do what I've

been doing

> - choosing to stay abstinent because I damn well want to.

Are you sure that is what you want? I'd be interested in hearing

reasons why any of those programs doesn't appeal or seems wrong... I

have heard a lot of bashing of all the various groups... AA the most

of course, but I have not read many reasoned criticisms. I'd like

to do that.

> In a message dated 8/11/01 3:44:12 PM Central Daylight Time,

> cool_guy@s... writes:

>

> << > > Where is the " erudite Ken Ragge " that some 12-step-free

groupies

> long for?

>

> I hate it when I forget what erudite means and have to look it up

in

> the dictionary. It just makes me feel so... well, not erudite.

>

> >>

[Guest guest]

> Cool:

> I wasn't trying to insult you by providing the definition of

erudite. I

Cool Jan, I didn't really take it as an insult, but I played it that

way just to remind everyone that I am not perfect (I think everyone

needed that reminder! just kidding in the reader's sarcasm detector

is broken). And earlier today I was thinking about how devastating

it was to me when I discovered just how flawed my beliefs about

higher powers and disease theories and my addiction had been... it

was very painful for me to admit I was wrong, that I had been fooled

and that I was just an imbecile to have believed all that crap. But

you know millions of others have fallen for it, too... I am not the

stupidest guy in the world, nor the smartest, but I am really glad I

saw how I was being misled and started leading myself. People on

this list helped me realize that I had been sorely mistaken about

some things, and also made me feel much better because they had,

too. It is OK to be wrong or ignorant, is what I really am trying

to get at.

> personally like Ken R. because his book literally set me free from

aa, and

> any other groups. I do like being supportive of people, but I

don't believe

> that friendships formed on common problems are very healthy.

Groupers would

> no doubt reply that they form friendships based on common

solutions.

> Whatever. I don't like Steve's continuous bashing of Ken R. I

have a

> sneaking suspicion that Ken doesn't give a shit though.

> Jan

Most of the people on this list I would not consider my friends,

but I do learn a lot about " our common problem " from them. I don't

read this list because I have been told I should... I read it

because I want to learn more about something that has had a very big

effect in my life (the steps, not drinking!). A lot of what I read

doesn't really pertain to me, and a lot of what I write doesn't

really pertain to most of the readers. C'est la vie.

I think I will just put Steve back in the killfile where he

belongs... I was blissfully ignorant of his presence on this list,

while he was on the killfile.

[Guest guest]

> Cool:

> I wasn't trying to insult you by providing the definition of

erudite. I

Cool Jan, I didn't really take it as an insult, but I played it that

way just to remind everyone that I am not perfect (I think everyone

needed that reminder! just kidding in the reader's sarcasm detector

is broken). And earlier today I was thinking about how devastating

it was to me when I discovered just how flawed my beliefs about

higher powers and disease theories and my addiction had been... it

was very painful for me to admit I was wrong, that I had been fooled

and that I was just an imbecile to have believed all that crap. But

you know millions of others have fallen for it, too... I am not the

stupidest guy in the world, nor the smartest, but I am really glad I

saw how I was being misled and started leading myself. People on

this list helped me realize that I had been sorely mistaken about

some things, and also made me feel much better because they had,

too. It is OK to be wrong or ignorant, is what I really am trying

to get at.

> personally like Ken R. because his book literally set me free from

aa, and

> any other groups. I do like being supportive of people, but I

don't believe

> that friendships formed on common problems are very healthy.

Groupers would

> no doubt reply that they form friendships based on common

solutions.

> Whatever. I don't like Steve's continuous bashing of Ken R. I

have a

> sneaking suspicion that Ken doesn't give a shit though.

> Jan

Most of the people on this list I would not consider my friends,

but I do learn a lot about " our common problem " from them. I don't

read this list because I have been told I should... I read it

because I want to learn more about something that has had a very big

effect in my life (the steps, not drinking!). A lot of what I read

doesn't really pertain to me, and a lot of what I write doesn't

really pertain to most of the readers. C'est la vie.

I think I will just put Steve back in the killfile where he

belongs... I was blissfully ignorant of his presence on this list,

while he was on the killfile.

[Guest guest]

> Cool:

> I wasn't trying to insult you by providing the definition of

erudite. I

Cool Jan, I didn't really take it as an insult, but I played it that

way just to remind everyone that I am not perfect (I think everyone

needed that reminder! just kidding in the reader's sarcasm detector

is broken). And earlier today I was thinking about how devastating

it was to me when I discovered just how flawed my beliefs about

higher powers and disease theories and my addiction had been... it

was very painful for me to admit I was wrong, that I had been fooled

and that I was just an imbecile to have believed all that crap. But

you know millions of others have fallen for it, too... I am not the

stupidest guy in the world, nor the smartest, but I am really glad I

saw how I was being misled and started leading myself. People on

this list helped me realize that I had been sorely mistaken about

some things, and also made me feel much better because they had,

too. It is OK to be wrong or ignorant, is what I really am trying

to get at.

> personally like Ken R. because his book literally set me free from

aa, and

> any other groups. I do like being supportive of people, but I

don't believe

> that friendships formed on common problems are very healthy.

Groupers would

> no doubt reply that they form friendships based on common

solutions.

> Whatever. I don't like Steve's continuous bashing of Ken R. I

have a

> sneaking suspicion that Ken doesn't give a shit though.

> Jan

Most of the people on this list I would not consider my friends,

but I do learn a lot about " our common problem " from them. I don't

read this list because I have been told I should... I read it

because I want to learn more about something that has had a very big

effect in my life (the steps, not drinking!). A lot of what I read

doesn't really pertain to me, and a lot of what I write doesn't

really pertain to most of the readers. C'est la vie.

I think I will just put Steve back in the killfile where he

belongs... I was blissfully ignorant of his presence on this list,

while he was on the killfile.

[Guest guest]

At 10:11 PM 8/11/01 -0500, you wrote:

> Hi Ken I think here is where you wrong. (As I see it) we want to see it

> opened up to all. (ALL)

That's all well and good for the programs, but who believe they would

do better without (or just don't need) a program at all? There's a

problem with coercion which is even more fundamental than the

12 steps are a steaming pile of donkey dung. It's the idea, picked

up from decades of stepper propaganda, that some sort of " group "

is necessary in order not to drink.

[Guest guest]

At 10:11 PM 8/11/01 -0500, you wrote:

> Hi Ken I think here is where you wrong. (As I see it) we want to see it

> opened up to all. (ALL)

That's all well and good for the programs, but who believe they would

do better without (or just don't need) a program at all? There's a

problem with coercion which is even more fundamental than the

12 steps are a steaming pile of donkey dung. It's the idea, picked

up from decades of stepper propaganda, that some sort of " group "

is necessary in order not to drink.

[Guest guest]

At 10:11 PM 8/11/01 -0500, you wrote:

> Hi Ken I think here is where you wrong. (As I see it) we want to see it

> opened up to all. (ALL)

That's all well and good for the programs, but who believe they would

do better without (or just don't need) a program at all? There's a

problem with coercion which is even more fundamental than the

12 steps are a steaming pile of donkey dung. It's the idea, picked

up from decades of stepper propaganda, that some sort of " group "

is necessary in order not to drink.

[Guest guest]

Mack:

I've only seen you on the board three times. Anyway, here's my sobriety

history.

Age 24 - quit smoking pot on own for 8 months, went to AA, after 1 more month

sober I drank once. Sober for 19 months. I drank once. Sober for 10.5 years

and totally fucking fed up with AA, and just about everyone I knew from AA.

Drank for two years - became physically addicted. Detoxed in hospital. Went

to aftercare for two weeks. Attended a few meetings, heard the same old

bullshit. Stopped going to meetings sort of naturally without really

consciously deciding to. So, I don't really think I need the support of the

group. I have a psychoanalyst, and that's been very healing. Interesting

that you posted me off list. Are you intimidated by the LSR,SOS Nazi's? I've

blocked Steve's email. I'm tired of him. Cool Guy seems okay sort of. I get

the feeling he's intelligent, but not necessarily educated. Not that it

matters, but...

The bottom line is I enjoy my own company - probably to a fault. It's

probably because I grew up in Hell House and the only peace I found was with

myself. I do like to help people, and I would like to help others to see

they can choose to stop abusing substances. And I understand it is totally

human to group together. And that may be extremely helpful for someone who

is just getting sober. I always got sober on my own, and only went to AA

afterwards, so I guess I didn't need a group to help me get started on

quitting.

Anyway, I am sooooooo tired of current thread. I may unsubscribe, maybe not.

I thought I'd meet more interesting people. Pete Watts is pretty cool. You

seem pretty cool - and I'm not sucking up. I don't do that. I like your

email handle. And I'm intrigued by what life is like in the UK.

Non-sobriety stuff.

Hope that answers your questions. Probably more than you wanted to know :-)

Jan

In a message dated 8/12/01 1:06:55 PM Central Daylight Time,

MackDeKnife@... writes:

<<

> > I'll never join LSR/SOS. I've already rejected RR as really

> irrational, and

> > never got around to looking into SMART. I think I'll do what

I've

> been doing

> > - choosing to stay abstinent because I damn well want to.

>

> Are you sure that is what you want? I'd be interested in hearing

> reasons why any of those programs doesn't appeal or seems wrong...

I

> have heard a lot of bashing of all the various groups... AA the

most

> of course, but I have not read many reasoned criticisms. I'd like

> to do that.

>

You and me both Cool Guy ;-)

I don't think there is a lot " wrong " with any of the (non-AA) groups,

the problem seems to be with the style of advocacy and extremeism of

some of their members. I see a lot of " AA " in that, and I wonder if

that reflects the membership or ideas inherited from AA or is just

the natural way of humans in recovery groups?! Fwiw, I *did* benefit

(in AA, gasp) from needed companionship and practical help, while

getting a few crucial first months of abstinence. Yet I had already

payed handsomely to some of those b*******, before I got sober. :-(

I believe that actually stopping drinking was (for me) rather group-

independant and mostly prompted by a rapid decline in circumstances,

and helped by a kick-start from Acamprosate. I don't think I could

have been helped by any RG in that. Chilling thought! :-) A group was

important for resocialisation. I believe " Do it Yourself " advocates

fail to aknowledge that many of us simply *don't* have the support

network of family or friends often needed in early recovery (c.f. the

denial of anything non-AA being used, by AAs too!). In any real terms

drinking alcohol excessively is addictive and being told (even here)

that one *should* be able to " choose " not to drink, is imo of *zero*

practical help to so many.

Fwiw, I have been most impressed by most " cognitive " orientated RGs

e.g. SMART? I feel my (only) contribution to the AA format was the

dunkalogue, which I see as a kind of negative Cost Benefit Analysis?

SMART also seem to invest more time in concentrating on their *own*

methods, not AA's. I feel a disservice is being done to some non-AA,

if bashing of AA is the ONLY way their members can advocate their

group. One already senses the reaction of the general public, in part

seduced by AA's message, as they watch bemused as the ex-drunks roll

in the dust. I suspect fewer with " drink problems " will go to their

meetings as a result - Sad indeed. Hopefully something positive can

be achieved.

Mack >>

[Guest guest]

Mack:

I've only seen you on the board three times. Anyway, here's my sobriety

history.

Age 24 - quit smoking pot on own for 8 months, went to AA, after 1 more month

sober I drank once. Sober for 19 months. I drank once. Sober for 10.5 years

and totally fucking fed up with AA, and just about everyone I knew from AA.

Drank for two years - became physically addicted. Detoxed in hospital. Went

to aftercare for two weeks. Attended a few meetings, heard the same old

bullshit. Stopped going to meetings sort of naturally without really

consciously deciding to. So, I don't really think I need the support of the

group. I have a psychoanalyst, and that's been very healing. Interesting

that you posted me off list. Are you intimidated by the LSR,SOS Nazi's? I've

blocked Steve's email. I'm tired of him. Cool Guy seems okay sort of. I get

the feeling he's intelligent, but not necessarily educated. Not that it

matters, but...

The bottom line is I enjoy my own company - probably to a fault. It's

probably because I grew up in Hell House and the only peace I found was with

myself. I do like to help people, and I would like to help others to see

they can choose to stop abusing substances. And I understand it is totally

human to group together. And that may be extremely helpful for someone who

is just getting sober. I always got sober on my own, and only went to AA

afterwards, so I guess I didn't need a group to help me get started on

quitting.

Anyway, I am sooooooo tired of current thread. I may unsubscribe, maybe not.

I thought I'd meet more interesting people. Pete Watts is pretty cool. You

seem pretty cool - and I'm not sucking up. I don't do that. I like your

email handle. And I'm intrigued by what life is like in the UK.

Non-sobriety stuff.

Hope that answers your questions. Probably more than you wanted to know :-)

Jan

In a message dated 8/12/01 1:06:55 PM Central Daylight Time,

MackDeKnife@... writes:

<<

> > I'll never join LSR/SOS. I've already rejected RR as really

> irrational, and

> > never got around to looking into SMART. I think I'll do what

I've

> been doing

> > - choosing to stay abstinent because I damn well want to.

>

> Are you sure that is what you want? I'd be interested in hearing

> reasons why any of those programs doesn't appeal or seems wrong...

I

> have heard a lot of bashing of all the various groups... AA the

most

> of course, but I have not read many reasoned criticisms. I'd like

> to do that.

>

You and me both Cool Guy ;-)

I don't think there is a lot " wrong " with any of the (non-AA) groups,

the problem seems to be with the style of advocacy and extremeism of

some of their members. I see a lot of " AA " in that, and I wonder if

that reflects the membership or ideas inherited from AA or is just

the natural way of humans in recovery groups?! Fwiw, I *did* benefit

(in AA, gasp) from needed companionship and practical help, while

getting a few crucial first months of abstinence. Yet I had already

payed handsomely to some of those b*******, before I got sober. :-(

I believe that actually stopping drinking was (for me) rather group-

independant and mostly prompted by a rapid decline in circumstances,

and helped by a kick-start from Acamprosate. I don't think I could

have been helped by any RG in that. Chilling thought! :-) A group was

important for resocialisation. I believe " Do it Yourself " advocates

fail to aknowledge that many of us simply *don't* have the support

network of family or friends often needed in early recovery (c.f. the

denial of anything non-AA being used, by AAs too!). In any real terms

drinking alcohol excessively is addictive and being told (even here)

that one *should* be able to " choose " not to drink, is imo of *zero*

practical help to so many.

Fwiw, I have been most impressed by most " cognitive " orientated RGs

e.g. SMART? I feel my (only) contribution to the AA format was the

dunkalogue, which I see as a kind of negative Cost Benefit Analysis?

SMART also seem to invest more time in concentrating on their *own*

methods, not AA's. I feel a disservice is being done to some non-AA,

if bashing of AA is the ONLY way their members can advocate their

group. One already senses the reaction of the general public, in part

seduced by AA's message, as they watch bemused as the ex-drunks roll

in the dust. I suspect fewer with " drink problems " will go to their

meetings as a result - Sad indeed. Hopefully something positive can

be achieved.

Mack >>

[Guest guest]

Mack:

I've only seen you on the board three times. Anyway, here's my sobriety

history.

Age 24 - quit smoking pot on own for 8 months, went to AA, after 1 more month

sober I drank once. Sober for 19 months. I drank once. Sober for 10.5 years

and totally fucking fed up with AA, and just about everyone I knew from AA.

Drank for two years - became physically addicted. Detoxed in hospital. Went

to aftercare for two weeks. Attended a few meetings, heard the same old

bullshit. Stopped going to meetings sort of naturally without really

consciously deciding to. So, I don't really think I need the support of the

group. I have a psychoanalyst, and that's been very healing. Interesting

that you posted me off list. Are you intimidated by the LSR,SOS Nazi's? I've

blocked Steve's email. I'm tired of him. Cool Guy seems okay sort of. I get

the feeling he's intelligent, but not necessarily educated. Not that it

matters, but...

The bottom line is I enjoy my own company - probably to a fault. It's

probably because I grew up in Hell House and the only peace I found was with

myself. I do like to help people, and I would like to help others to see

they can choose to stop abusing substances. And I understand it is totally

human to group together. And that may be extremely helpful for someone who

is just getting sober. I always got sober on my own, and only went to AA

afterwards, so I guess I didn't need a group to help me get started on

quitting.

Anyway, I am sooooooo tired of current thread. I may unsubscribe, maybe not.

I thought I'd meet more interesting people. Pete Watts is pretty cool. You

seem pretty cool - and I'm not sucking up. I don't do that. I like your

email handle. And I'm intrigued by what life is like in the UK.

Non-sobriety stuff.

Hope that answers your questions. Probably more than you wanted to know :-)

Jan

In a message dated 8/12/01 1:06:55 PM Central Daylight Time,

MackDeKnife@... writes:

<<

> > I'll never join LSR/SOS. I've already rejected RR as really

> irrational, and

> > never got around to looking into SMART. I think I'll do what

I've

> been doing

> > - choosing to stay abstinent because I damn well want to.

>

> Are you sure that is what you want? I'd be interested in hearing

> reasons why any of those programs doesn't appeal or seems wrong...

I

> have heard a lot of bashing of all the various groups... AA the

most

> of course, but I have not read many reasoned criticisms. I'd like

> to do that.

>

You and me both Cool Guy ;-)

I don't think there is a lot " wrong " with any of the (non-AA) groups,

the problem seems to be with the style of advocacy and extremeism of

some of their members. I see a lot of " AA " in that, and I wonder if

that reflects the membership or ideas inherited from AA or is just

the natural way of humans in recovery groups?! Fwiw, I *did* benefit

(in AA, gasp) from needed companionship and practical help, while

getting a few crucial first months of abstinence. Yet I had already

payed handsomely to some of those b*******, before I got sober. :-(

I believe that actually stopping drinking was (for me) rather group-

independant and mostly prompted by a rapid decline in circumstances,

and helped by a kick-start from Acamprosate. I don't think I could

have been helped by any RG in that. Chilling thought! :-) A group was

important for resocialisation. I believe " Do it Yourself " advocates

fail to aknowledge that many of us simply *don't* have the support

network of family or friends often needed in early recovery (c.f. the

denial of anything non-AA being used, by AAs too!). In any real terms

drinking alcohol excessively is addictive and being told (even here)

that one *should* be able to " choose " not to drink, is imo of *zero*

practical help to so many.

Fwiw, I have been most impressed by most " cognitive " orientated RGs

e.g. SMART? I feel my (only) contribution to the AA format was the

dunkalogue, which I see as a kind of negative Cost Benefit Analysis?

SMART also seem to invest more time in concentrating on their *own*

methods, not AA's. I feel a disservice is being done to some non-AA,

if bashing of AA is the ONLY way their members can advocate their

group. One already senses the reaction of the general public, in part

seduced by AA's message, as they watch bemused as the ex-drunks roll

in the dust. I suspect fewer with " drink problems " will go to their

meetings as a result - Sad indeed. Hopefully something positive can

be achieved.

Mack >>

[Guest guest]

> Steve:

> I'm much less amused with you than I was formerly. Who died and made you

God?

> Jan

I never claimd that, either. It's more like who died and made Ken God, or

should I say made Ken the Bill of the anti-AA movement?

Steve

[Guest guest]

> Steve:

> I'm much less amused with you than I was formerly. Who died and made you

God?

> Jan

I never claimd that, either. It's more like who died and made Ken God, or

should I say made Ken the Bill of the anti-AA movement?

Steve

[Guest guest]

> Steve:

> I'm much less amused with you than I was formerly. Who died and made you

God?

> Jan

I never claimd that, either. It's more like who died and made Ken God, or

should I say made Ken the Bill of the anti-AA movement?

Steve

[Guest guest]

Hi Cool Guy: Duaine M here: I'm glad you posted . If you hadn't I would have never known this about you because of your other posts presented a different person. Re: Good Bye What is sober? I don't consider myself sober... nor do I consider myself a dry drunk. I am just a human, who drank like an idiot at times. I don't do that any more. Since I realized I was drinking like an idiot far more than I wanted to be, and started making changes, I have been growing and learning and becoming happier everyday. I used to think my childhood was the best part of my life and I had nothing to look forward to... but I found out how wrong that I was... that childhood was OK, most of the time it was pretty enjoyable, but adulthood is also very enjoyable. I am glad for the changes that have made my life better. I am glad you found these things you say you've found, too.

[Guest guest]

Hi Cool Guy: Duaine M here: I'm glad you posted . If you hadn't I would have never known this about you because of your other posts presented a different person. Re: Good Bye What is sober? I don't consider myself sober... nor do I consider myself a dry drunk. I am just a human, who drank like an idiot at times. I don't do that any more. Since I realized I was drinking like an idiot far more than I wanted to be, and started making changes, I have been growing and learning and becoming happier everyday. I used to think my childhood was the best part of my life and I had nothing to look forward to... but I found out how wrong that I was... that childhood was OK, most of the time it was pretty enjoyable, but adulthood is also very enjoyable. I am glad for the changes that have made my life better. I am glad you found these things you say you've found, too.

[Guest guest]

Hi Cool Guy: Duaine M here: I'm glad you posted . If you hadn't I would have never known this about you because of your other posts presented a different person. Re: Good Bye What is sober? I don't consider myself sober... nor do I consider myself a dry drunk. I am just a human, who drank like an idiot at times. I don't do that any more. Since I realized I was drinking like an idiot far more than I wanted to be, and started making changes, I have been growing and learning and becoming happier everyday. I used to think my childhood was the best part of my life and I had nothing to look forward to... but I found out how wrong that I was... that childhood was OK, most of the time it was pretty enjoyable, but adulthood is also very enjoyable. I am glad for the changes that have made my life better. I am glad you found these things you say you've found, too.

[Guest guest]

Hi Cool Guy: Duaine M here: I helped stop the forced meetings. We at SOS don't want forced meetings. If we some how become one of them we will work hard and fast to put a stop to them. It's not us. Get it ?? We don't help with moderate drinking. We are a Abstinence Group. We give you back to your self. You are the one who does it, not us. --No Steps-- No one telling you how to do it--. It's the SOS Way. I am curious about your answer to this question Duaine... oncoerced meeting attendance - that is when people are forced to go tomeetings. Whether the meeting is AA, SOS, LSR or whatever, will themeeting do the people that attend it any good, if the vast majorityare there against their own will? How many people will constitute aworthwile meeting versus a meeting that is a waste of everyone'stime? I am not against SOS or any of these other AA alternatives, but Iam against people being sent to meeting of any kind against therewill. Enough about that, please tell me how SOS helps people to quit ormoderate drinking. I want to learn more about it. Thanks

[Guest guest]

Hi Cool Guy: Duaine M here: I helped stop the forced meetings. We at SOS don't want forced meetings. If we some how become one of them we will work hard and fast to put a stop to them. It's not us. Get it ?? We don't help with moderate drinking. We are a Abstinence Group. We give you back to your self. You are the one who does it, not us. --No Steps-- No one telling you how to do it--. It's the SOS Way. I am curious about your answer to this question Duaine... oncoerced meeting attendance - that is when people are forced to go tomeetings. Whether the meeting is AA, SOS, LSR or whatever, will themeeting do the people that attend it any good, if the vast majorityare there against their own will? How many people will constitute aworthwile meeting versus a meeting that is a waste of everyone'stime? I am not against SOS or any of these other AA alternatives, but Iam against people being sent to meeting of any kind against therewill. Enough about that, please tell me how SOS helps people to quit ormoderate drinking. I want to learn more about it. Thanks