Good Bye

[Guest guest]

> > you conspiratorial asshole.

> > groundless, baseless

> assertion

> > willfully

> > ignorant

> > your narrow minded

> > You are being willfully perverse

> > > and malicious in distorting and outrightly lying

> > > Yes, I am calling you a malicious liar

> > Steve

> >

> >

> > Steve,

> > Nice words!

> > Are you a little threatened?

> >

> > netty

>

> No Netty that is what Stevo says when he is really happy. He was

> really happy because that asshole Ken is out telling " the lies about

> AA " again and because he doesn't have any proof that any thing Ken

> says is not true. He can't back this argument up with psychobabble

> as well as he normally can so he is happy and excited.

Wrong, Ken was telling lies about SOS... and of course, I'm sure you know

about " psycho " and " babble " whenever you open your mouth, Cool Guy.

Steve

[Guest guest]

Re: Re: Good ByeHowever, there is a great deal of competition between SOS, LSR and SMART tobe chosen by various government agencies as alternative groups to coercepeople to.KenHi Ken I think here is where you wrong. (As I see it) we want to see it opened up to all. (ALL)

[Guest guest]

Re: Re: Good ByeHowever, there is a great deal of competition between SOS, LSR and SMART tobe chosen by various government agencies as alternative groups to coercepeople to.KenHi Ken I think here is where you wrong. (As I see it) we want to see it opened up to all. (ALL)

[Guest guest]

Re: Re: Good ByeHowever, there is a great deal of competition between SOS, LSR and SMART tobe chosen by various government agencies as alternative groups to coercepeople to.KenHi Ken I think here is where you wrong. (As I see it) we want to see it opened up to all. (ALL)

[Guest guest]

Re: Good Bye

>

> > > > P.S. To above.

> > > >

> > > > I don't doubt the sincerity of those in LSR/SOS who had a

> coffee

> > > pot and

> > > > resentment and started a new meeting. I do question how far

> > > removed

> > > > they are from the meetings they left even if they've made some

> > > changes

> > > > in language, completely wiping out the religious and keeping

> the AA

> > > > science and alcohol as Devil Drink. I can understand the

> > > attraction of

> > > > genetics and " physiological differences. " It confers

> innocence on

> > > > repeated bad behavior while drunk. Just stop drinking, which

> one

> > > wants

> > > > to do anyway, and one not only has that benefit, but all bad

> > > behavior

> > > > can be ascribed to " it, " the disease, Devil Drink, genes,

> however

> > > it is

> > > > termed. Perhaps that is where much of the need to proseletyze

> > > comes

> > > > from.

Ken, you've already shown you don't know a damn thing about LSR or SOS, in

my opinion, and I'm sure others who are in one or the other or both.

> > >

> > > They believe alcohol is Devil Drink (and a million other

> > > assumptions) because it suits them and since they have a false

> > > belief, they must convince others of it to continue believing it.

More bullshit. I've never heard that phrase online or f2f at LSR or SOS.

Pure ignorant bullshit.

Steve

[Guest guest]

Re: Good Bye

>

> > > > P.S. To above.

> > > >

> > > > I don't doubt the sincerity of those in LSR/SOS who had a

> coffee

> > > pot and

> > > > resentment and started a new meeting. I do question how far

> > > removed

> > > > they are from the meetings they left even if they've made some

> > > changes

> > > > in language, completely wiping out the religious and keeping

> the AA

> > > > science and alcohol as Devil Drink. I can understand the

> > > attraction of

> > > > genetics and " physiological differences. " It confers

> innocence on

> > > > repeated bad behavior while drunk. Just stop drinking, which

> one

> > > wants

> > > > to do anyway, and one not only has that benefit, but all bad

> > > behavior

> > > > can be ascribed to " it, " the disease, Devil Drink, genes,

> however

> > > it is

> > > > termed. Perhaps that is where much of the need to proseletyze

> > > comes

> > > > from.

Ken, you've already shown you don't know a damn thing about LSR or SOS, in

my opinion, and I'm sure others who are in one or the other or both.

> > >

> > > They believe alcohol is Devil Drink (and a million other

> > > assumptions) because it suits them and since they have a false

> > > belief, they must convince others of it to continue believing it.

More bullshit. I've never heard that phrase online or f2f at LSR or SOS.

Pure ignorant bullshit.

Steve

[Guest guest]

>

> Sure more people get and stay sober with no group. So what. Shouldn't we

care about all of us.

> Is that a dirty word --Care -- Careing--

> Where are you in all this??? Do you support living a sober life?? Do you

reach out your hand and give encouragement?? In SOS I give encouragement.

> I also let every one know that we are not the only way--We are not the best

way--More people recover without any group.

> Tell me Ken is that being coerced??

> I also go to Texas Prisons and Jails. Many people I talk with tell me their

not sure they want to contunue with SOS when they get out. I tell them it

dosn't matter. Do whats right for them.

> Without SOS who else would tell them that???

>

--------------

Hi Duaine --

Perhaps you do not understand what it means to be coerced into being

involved with " recovery " groups.

You talk about " caring " -- do you CARE about the pain suffered by people

who are on the one hand told they must be " honest with themselves " and then on

the other hand when they honestly state that they are among the majority who

best stay sober without any group, are told they are " in denial " ? -- that they

will have their probation revoked, their children kept in foster care, or their

suspension from work extended if they don't " admit " that they NEED some

particular " recovery " group, and " need " to internalize its philosophy??

I'm sure SOS/LSR is a fine support group for those who desire such a thing.

But an intrusive waste of time for those who don't.

And I'll ask you the same thing I asked Steve -- what percentage of

uninterested coercees who reject LSR's philosophy would be your personally

comfortable limit at a given meeting? -- could you handle 10%? 30%? 75%? What

if you attended a meeting with 5 newcomers, yourself, and 50 uninterested

coercees who were reading the newspaper and listening to Walkmans? Would that

be a worthwhile meeting for anyone that night?

~Rita

[Guest guest]

>

> Sure more people get and stay sober with no group. So what. Shouldn't we

care about all of us.

> Is that a dirty word --Care -- Careing--

> Where are you in all this??? Do you support living a sober life?? Do you

reach out your hand and give encouragement?? In SOS I give encouragement.

> I also let every one know that we are not the only way--We are not the best

way--More people recover without any group.

> Tell me Ken is that being coerced??

> I also go to Texas Prisons and Jails. Many people I talk with tell me their

not sure they want to contunue with SOS when they get out. I tell them it

dosn't matter. Do whats right for them.

> Without SOS who else would tell them that???

>

--------------

Hi Duaine --

Perhaps you do not understand what it means to be coerced into being

involved with " recovery " groups.

You talk about " caring " -- do you CARE about the pain suffered by people

who are on the one hand told they must be " honest with themselves " and then on

the other hand when they honestly state that they are among the majority who

best stay sober without any group, are told they are " in denial " ? -- that they

will have their probation revoked, their children kept in foster care, or their

suspension from work extended if they don't " admit " that they NEED some

particular " recovery " group, and " need " to internalize its philosophy??

I'm sure SOS/LSR is a fine support group for those who desire such a thing.

But an intrusive waste of time for those who don't.

And I'll ask you the same thing I asked Steve -- what percentage of

uninterested coercees who reject LSR's philosophy would be your personally

comfortable limit at a given meeting? -- could you handle 10%? 30%? 75%? What

if you attended a meeting with 5 newcomers, yourself, and 50 uninterested

coercees who were reading the newspaper and listening to Walkmans? Would that

be a worthwhile meeting for anyone that night?

~Rita

[Guest guest]

>

> Sure more people get and stay sober with no group. So what. Shouldn't we

care about all of us.

> Is that a dirty word --Care -- Careing--

> Where are you in all this??? Do you support living a sober life?? Do you

reach out your hand and give encouragement?? In SOS I give encouragement.

> I also let every one know that we are not the only way--We are not the best

way--More people recover without any group.

> Tell me Ken is that being coerced??

> I also go to Texas Prisons and Jails. Many people I talk with tell me their

not sure they want to contunue with SOS when they get out. I tell them it

dosn't matter. Do whats right for them.

> Without SOS who else would tell them that???

>

--------------

Hi Duaine --

Perhaps you do not understand what it means to be coerced into being

involved with " recovery " groups.

You talk about " caring " -- do you CARE about the pain suffered by people

who are on the one hand told they must be " honest with themselves " and then on

the other hand when they honestly state that they are among the majority who

best stay sober without any group, are told they are " in denial " ? -- that they

will have their probation revoked, their children kept in foster care, or their

suspension from work extended if they don't " admit " that they NEED some

particular " recovery " group, and " need " to internalize its philosophy??

I'm sure SOS/LSR is a fine support group for those who desire such a thing.

But an intrusive waste of time for those who don't.

And I'll ask you the same thing I asked Steve -- what percentage of

uninterested coercees who reject LSR's philosophy would be your personally

comfortable limit at a given meeting? -- could you handle 10%? 30%? 75%? What

if you attended a meeting with 5 newcomers, yourself, and 50 uninterested

coercees who were reading the newspaper and listening to Walkmans? Would that

be a worthwhile meeting for anyone that night?

~Rita

[Guest guest]

Hi (COOl Guy): Duaine M here: How you do go on… An on….An on… You are obviously smarter than I am. I could never go on the way you just did. I am glad I'm me and your you. I glad I'm not as smart as you are. Well may be I'd like to be smarter than I am. If I were smarter I think I would use my brain to focus on things other than (Shit). When I got sober I found a world out there. A world of wonder. I found motor cycles. I found Kites. I found food. I found life and love. Am I missing some thing here??? This list??? I haven't heard any one who has found joy. Or did I come in late??? Re: Good Bye >>> ----- Original Message -----> From: cool guy> Its funny that we> humans would want to do that, but we do so often. And we hide the> truth from others and deceive them on top of it. And people whotry> to show you the truth get ran into the ground... and people (Mona?)> flee from the truth... silly people. Thank you Ken!> Duaine M here:> We Humans??? We hide the truth?? Yeah dude, there are billions of people walking around thatbelieve one sort of bullshit or another in place of the truth, andcling to that bullshit instead of discarding and finding the truth(or something closer to it). Like steppers, or Christians, or thoseguys into voodoo. Bullshit ad infinitum. It is really easy toadmit this stuff is bullshit but we humans, yes we humans, asopposed to cows or dogs or eagles, keep on believing bullshit anddon't seek truth. I don't really know what the cows dogs and eaglesdo, but I have experienced and witnessed what I am saying abouthumans. Life is an onslaught of bullshit, and people, as in wehumans, become comfortable believing certain bullshit (which seemsto depend entirely on the individual) and do not grow anymore oncewe settle in, once we (as individuals) are no longer (if ever wewere) open minded and curious and questioning.> If you beleve this (Cool Guy) what are you hideing?? Where are youin all this?? Is this list about recovery?? I would realy like toknow. I'd really like to know that, too, about where I am at in allthis. I keep finding new things that prevent me from seeing truth.For instance today I realized that there was this belief in my headthat Bill believed every word he wrote, that he really wascrazy (or inspired by God) and thought he was helping people. Thatwas a belief I had, for no particular reason, other than he wroteseemingly genuinely. Well, after reading more and more andthinking, I realized that I now believe he may not have been genuineat all, in fact I tend to believe he was very disingenuous, perhapseven more so than Clinton (or Bush). So, with this new perspective, I have a closer view of the truth,or the possible truth, that was not available with my previousassumption that he "really meant it". By believing some bullshit, Iwas unable to see these other possibilities. Notably, that he wasin it for the money and it was really a grand way to make somemoney. That he was really talented at building his little empireand that there is probably a lot to be learned from studying him notfor errors about/in AA - I've seen plenty of those, but to find outwhat made him successful. Now, being able to see that benefits me,more than not being able to see it. I could possibly use some ofhis strategies (that I was blind to before) to help me make somemoney or help me get my points across as effectively as he did).Its basically being able to look at something from an angle thatwasn't available before because that view was blocked by a pile ofbullshit. I was happy to make this discovery, as I was happy to discoverthat AA was a sham... but not every part of learning that AA was asham was pleasant... I learned things about myself that I didn'twant to know... that were painful, that humbeled me, that made mefeel stupid, or like a fool, or a stooge, but I got over the painand disgrace of those feelings and feel a lot better now knowingmore about me (and my world). OK, so yesterday I thought about Bill W as a guy almost as bad asHitler and I hated him. But today, I must admit I dislike himstill, but it is hard to hate someone that I somewhat admire, whichI do now, since I no longer think he was merely a crazed braindamaged drinker who accidentally started the phenomenon of XA. OK, similarly, an average stepper believes he has an incurabledisease (some bullshit). Because of that bullshit that he believes,he will believe (some more bullshit) he can cure his disease andstay alive by doing the 12 steps. So he does the 12steps. Thetruth though, from all known data, is that this disease does notexist, and that he does not need to do the 12steps to stay alive.But he chooses to believe bullshit instead of the truth, because...who knows why we humans make this choice.... anyway believing thatbullshit ends up causing him to waste lots of his time and energyAKA his life on more bullshit and limits whatever other truth hetries to see. Its kind of like holding your fingers in front of your eyes whileyou try to read my email - you just can not see it, or at least notas clearly as possible. Wouldn't it be wiser to move those fingersout of your way? Of course, but a lot of times we humans (remembereagles don't have fingers) continue to try to see despite thosefingers - or the bullshit that is in the way and holding them back.> If this is a place to hang and get high, I'm out. May be youcould be up front and let some one who isn't a (Cool Guy) know wherehe stands?? I don't know where you stand. Do you go to church? Do you go tomeetings? Do you vote? Do you work? Do you pay taxes? Are you inthe military? Are you a cop? Are you a government employee? Itsendless... I can't know what you believe and what is right or wrongabout what you believe... I could make lots of assumptions orguesses if I knew something about you, but that would probably berude and that is not my job anyway. I mentioned Clinton earlier. I hated Clinton for about 6 or 7years of his presidency. Then I started to admire him and beinspired by him... and it is kind of hard to hate someone who caninspire you... in fact it is a chore just to hate people, ingeneral, but I digress. Without hating the guy, I am able to lookat him more objectivly. Thanks to him I have learned to look atpeople in general more objectively, with less prejudice and I havelearned not to hate or love anyone too passionately, which helps tosee what is really there... the truth about them. Anyway, Clintonis a normal man, not extraordinary at all, from Arkansas, one of theshittiest states the US has, and not extremely rich compared to alot of others, yet somehow he managed to become president. I thinkI am a fuck up. But I think he is a really big fuck up, and hebecame president... that gives me hope and reminds me that I coulddo just about anything... which is a good belief to have. So thanksBill Clinton, you fucker, for helping to instill that belief in me.As opposed to some asshole preacher who would have me believe I willburn in hell for eternity if I ever miss church or a stepper whowould have me believe I will die the next time I take a drink. I'drather believe something that is true and empowering than somebullshit.

[Guest guest]

Hi (COOl Guy): Duaine M here: How you do go on… An on….An on… You are obviously smarter than I am. I could never go on the way you just did. I am glad I'm me and your you. I glad I'm not as smart as you are. Well may be I'd like to be smarter than I am. If I were smarter I think I would use my brain to focus on things other than (Shit). When I got sober I found a world out there. A world of wonder. I found motor cycles. I found Kites. I found food. I found life and love. Am I missing some thing here??? This list??? I haven't heard any one who has found joy. Or did I come in late??? Re: Good Bye >>> ----- Original Message -----> From: cool guy> Its funny that we> humans would want to do that, but we do so often. And we hide the> truth from others and deceive them on top of it. And people whotry> to show you the truth get ran into the ground... and people (Mona?)> flee from the truth... silly people. Thank you Ken!> Duaine M here:> We Humans??? We hide the truth?? Yeah dude, there are billions of people walking around thatbelieve one sort of bullshit or another in place of the truth, andcling to that bullshit instead of discarding and finding the truth(or something closer to it). Like steppers, or Christians, or thoseguys into voodoo. Bullshit ad infinitum. It is really easy toadmit this stuff is bullshit but we humans, yes we humans, asopposed to cows or dogs or eagles, keep on believing bullshit anddon't seek truth. I don't really know what the cows dogs and eaglesdo, but I have experienced and witnessed what I am saying abouthumans. Life is an onslaught of bullshit, and people, as in wehumans, become comfortable believing certain bullshit (which seemsto depend entirely on the individual) and do not grow anymore oncewe settle in, once we (as individuals) are no longer (if ever wewere) open minded and curious and questioning.> If you beleve this (Cool Guy) what are you hideing?? Where are youin all this?? Is this list about recovery?? I would realy like toknow. I'd really like to know that, too, about where I am at in allthis. I keep finding new things that prevent me from seeing truth.For instance today I realized that there was this belief in my headthat Bill believed every word he wrote, that he really wascrazy (or inspired by God) and thought he was helping people. Thatwas a belief I had, for no particular reason, other than he wroteseemingly genuinely. Well, after reading more and more andthinking, I realized that I now believe he may not have been genuineat all, in fact I tend to believe he was very disingenuous, perhapseven more so than Clinton (or Bush). So, with this new perspective, I have a closer view of the truth,or the possible truth, that was not available with my previousassumption that he "really meant it". By believing some bullshit, Iwas unable to see these other possibilities. Notably, that he wasin it for the money and it was really a grand way to make somemoney. That he was really talented at building his little empireand that there is probably a lot to be learned from studying him notfor errors about/in AA - I've seen plenty of those, but to find outwhat made him successful. Now, being able to see that benefits me,more than not being able to see it. I could possibly use some ofhis strategies (that I was blind to before) to help me make somemoney or help me get my points across as effectively as he did).Its basically being able to look at something from an angle thatwasn't available before because that view was blocked by a pile ofbullshit. I was happy to make this discovery, as I was happy to discoverthat AA was a sham... but not every part of learning that AA was asham was pleasant... I learned things about myself that I didn'twant to know... that were painful, that humbeled me, that made mefeel stupid, or like a fool, or a stooge, but I got over the painand disgrace of those feelings and feel a lot better now knowingmore about me (and my world). OK, so yesterday I thought about Bill W as a guy almost as bad asHitler and I hated him. But today, I must admit I dislike himstill, but it is hard to hate someone that I somewhat admire, whichI do now, since I no longer think he was merely a crazed braindamaged drinker who accidentally started the phenomenon of XA. OK, similarly, an average stepper believes he has an incurabledisease (some bullshit). Because of that bullshit that he believes,he will believe (some more bullshit) he can cure his disease andstay alive by doing the 12 steps. So he does the 12steps. Thetruth though, from all known data, is that this disease does notexist, and that he does not need to do the 12steps to stay alive.But he chooses to believe bullshit instead of the truth, because...who knows why we humans make this choice.... anyway believing thatbullshit ends up causing him to waste lots of his time and energyAKA his life on more bullshit and limits whatever other truth hetries to see. Its kind of like holding your fingers in front of your eyes whileyou try to read my email - you just can not see it, or at least notas clearly as possible. Wouldn't it be wiser to move those fingersout of your way? Of course, but a lot of times we humans (remembereagles don't have fingers) continue to try to see despite thosefingers - or the bullshit that is in the way and holding them back.> If this is a place to hang and get high, I'm out. May be youcould be up front and let some one who isn't a (Cool Guy) know wherehe stands?? I don't know where you stand. Do you go to church? Do you go tomeetings? Do you vote? Do you work? Do you pay taxes? Are you inthe military? Are you a cop? Are you a government employee? Itsendless... I can't know what you believe and what is right or wrongabout what you believe... I could make lots of assumptions orguesses if I knew something about you, but that would probably berude and that is not my job anyway. I mentioned Clinton earlier. I hated Clinton for about 6 or 7years of his presidency. Then I started to admire him and beinspired by him... and it is kind of hard to hate someone who caninspire you... in fact it is a chore just to hate people, ingeneral, but I digress. Without hating the guy, I am able to lookat him more objectivly. Thanks to him I have learned to look atpeople in general more objectively, with less prejudice and I havelearned not to hate or love anyone too passionately, which helps tosee what is really there... the truth about them. Anyway, Clintonis a normal man, not extraordinary at all, from Arkansas, one of theshittiest states the US has, and not extremely rich compared to alot of others, yet somehow he managed to become president. I thinkI am a fuck up. But I think he is a really big fuck up, and hebecame president... that gives me hope and reminds me that I coulddo just about anything... which is a good belief to have. So thanksBill Clinton, you fucker, for helping to instill that belief in me.As opposed to some asshole preacher who would have me believe I willburn in hell for eternity if I ever miss church or a stepper whowould have me believe I will die the next time I take a drink. I'drather believe something that is true and empowering than somebullshit.

[Guest guest]

Hi (COOl Guy): Duaine M here: How you do go on… An on….An on… You are obviously smarter than I am. I could never go on the way you just did. I am glad I'm me and your you. I glad I'm not as smart as you are. Well may be I'd like to be smarter than I am. If I were smarter I think I would use my brain to focus on things other than (Shit). When I got sober I found a world out there. A world of wonder. I found motor cycles. I found Kites. I found food. I found life and love. Am I missing some thing here??? This list??? I haven't heard any one who has found joy. Or did I come in late??? Re: Good Bye >>> ----- Original Message -----> From: cool guy> Its funny that we> humans would want to do that, but we do so often. And we hide the> truth from others and deceive them on top of it. And people whotry> to show you the truth get ran into the ground... and people (Mona?)> flee from the truth... silly people. Thank you Ken!> Duaine M here:> We Humans??? We hide the truth?? Yeah dude, there are billions of people walking around thatbelieve one sort of bullshit or another in place of the truth, andcling to that bullshit instead of discarding and finding the truth(or something closer to it). Like steppers, or Christians, or thoseguys into voodoo. Bullshit ad infinitum. It is really easy toadmit this stuff is bullshit but we humans, yes we humans, asopposed to cows or dogs or eagles, keep on believing bullshit anddon't seek truth. I don't really know what the cows dogs and eaglesdo, but I have experienced and witnessed what I am saying abouthumans. Life is an onslaught of bullshit, and people, as in wehumans, become comfortable believing certain bullshit (which seemsto depend entirely on the individual) and do not grow anymore oncewe settle in, once we (as individuals) are no longer (if ever wewere) open minded and curious and questioning.> If you beleve this (Cool Guy) what are you hideing?? Where are youin all this?? Is this list about recovery?? I would realy like toknow. I'd really like to know that, too, about where I am at in allthis. I keep finding new things that prevent me from seeing truth.For instance today I realized that there was this belief in my headthat Bill believed every word he wrote, that he really wascrazy (or inspired by God) and thought he was helping people. Thatwas a belief I had, for no particular reason, other than he wroteseemingly genuinely. Well, after reading more and more andthinking, I realized that I now believe he may not have been genuineat all, in fact I tend to believe he was very disingenuous, perhapseven more so than Clinton (or Bush). So, with this new perspective, I have a closer view of the truth,or the possible truth, that was not available with my previousassumption that he "really meant it". By believing some bullshit, Iwas unable to see these other possibilities. Notably, that he wasin it for the money and it was really a grand way to make somemoney. That he was really talented at building his little empireand that there is probably a lot to be learned from studying him notfor errors about/in AA - I've seen plenty of those, but to find outwhat made him successful. Now, being able to see that benefits me,more than not being able to see it. I could possibly use some ofhis strategies (that I was blind to before) to help me make somemoney or help me get my points across as effectively as he did).Its basically being able to look at something from an angle thatwasn't available before because that view was blocked by a pile ofbullshit. I was happy to make this discovery, as I was happy to discoverthat AA was a sham... but not every part of learning that AA was asham was pleasant... I learned things about myself that I didn'twant to know... that were painful, that humbeled me, that made mefeel stupid, or like a fool, or a stooge, but I got over the painand disgrace of those feelings and feel a lot better now knowingmore about me (and my world). OK, so yesterday I thought about Bill W as a guy almost as bad asHitler and I hated him. But today, I must admit I dislike himstill, but it is hard to hate someone that I somewhat admire, whichI do now, since I no longer think he was merely a crazed braindamaged drinker who accidentally started the phenomenon of XA. OK, similarly, an average stepper believes he has an incurabledisease (some bullshit). Because of that bullshit that he believes,he will believe (some more bullshit) he can cure his disease andstay alive by doing the 12 steps. So he does the 12steps. Thetruth though, from all known data, is that this disease does notexist, and that he does not need to do the 12steps to stay alive.But he chooses to believe bullshit instead of the truth, because...who knows why we humans make this choice.... anyway believing thatbullshit ends up causing him to waste lots of his time and energyAKA his life on more bullshit and limits whatever other truth hetries to see. Its kind of like holding your fingers in front of your eyes whileyou try to read my email - you just can not see it, or at least notas clearly as possible. Wouldn't it be wiser to move those fingersout of your way? Of course, but a lot of times we humans (remembereagles don't have fingers) continue to try to see despite thosefingers - or the bullshit that is in the way and holding them back.> If this is a place to hang and get high, I'm out. May be youcould be up front and let some one who isn't a (Cool Guy) know wherehe stands?? I don't know where you stand. Do you go to church? Do you go tomeetings? Do you vote? Do you work? Do you pay taxes? Are you inthe military? Are you a cop? Are you a government employee? Itsendless... I can't know what you believe and what is right or wrongabout what you believe... I could make lots of assumptions orguesses if I knew something about you, but that would probably berude and that is not my job anyway. I mentioned Clinton earlier. I hated Clinton for about 6 or 7years of his presidency. Then I started to admire him and beinspired by him... and it is kind of hard to hate someone who caninspire you... in fact it is a chore just to hate people, ingeneral, but I digress. Without hating the guy, I am able to lookat him more objectivly. Thanks to him I have learned to look atpeople in general more objectively, with less prejudice and I havelearned not to hate or love anyone too passionately, which helps tosee what is really there... the truth about them. Anyway, Clintonis a normal man, not extraordinary at all, from Arkansas, one of theshittiest states the US has, and not extremely rich compared to alot of others, yet somehow he managed to become president. I thinkI am a fuck up. But I think he is a really big fuck up, and hebecame president... that gives me hope and reminds me that I coulddo just about anything... which is a good belief to have. So thanksBill Clinton, you fucker, for helping to instill that belief in me.As opposed to some asshole preacher who would have me believe I willburn in hell for eternity if I ever miss church or a stepper whowould have me believe I will die the next time I take a drink. I'drather believe something that is true and empowering than somebullshit.

[Guest guest]

>

> I don't doubt the sincerity of those in LSR/SOS who had a coffee pot and

> resentment and started a new meeting. I do question how far removed

> they are from the meetings they left even if they've made some changes

> in language, completely wiping out the religious and keeping the AA

> science and alcohol as Devil Drink. I can understand the attraction of

> genetics and " physiological differences. " It confers innocence on

> repeated bad behavior while drunk. Just stop drinking, which one wants

> to do anyway, and one not only has that benefit, but all bad behavior

> can be ascribed to " it, " the disease, Devil Drink, genes, however it is

> termed. Perhaps that is where much of the need to proseletyze comes

> from.

>

> Ken

I've never heard the words " Devil Drink " at online or f2f LSR or SOS. More

proof of your willful ignorance and your slanderous words, IMO.

Steve

[Guest guest]

>

> I don't doubt the sincerity of those in LSR/SOS who had a coffee pot and

> resentment and started a new meeting. I do question how far removed

> they are from the meetings they left even if they've made some changes

> in language, completely wiping out the religious and keeping the AA

> science and alcohol as Devil Drink. I can understand the attraction of

> genetics and " physiological differences. " It confers innocence on

> repeated bad behavior while drunk. Just stop drinking, which one wants

> to do anyway, and one not only has that benefit, but all bad behavior

> can be ascribed to " it, " the disease, Devil Drink, genes, however it is

> termed. Perhaps that is where much of the need to proseletyze comes

> from.

>

> Ken

I've never heard the words " Devil Drink " at online or f2f LSR or SOS. More

proof of your willful ignorance and your slanderous words, IMO.

Steve

[Guest guest]

>

> I don't doubt the sincerity of those in LSR/SOS who had a coffee pot and

> resentment and started a new meeting. I do question how far removed

> they are from the meetings they left even if they've made some changes

> in language, completely wiping out the religious and keeping the AA

> science and alcohol as Devil Drink. I can understand the attraction of

> genetics and " physiological differences. " It confers innocence on

> repeated bad behavior while drunk. Just stop drinking, which one wants

> to do anyway, and one not only has that benefit, but all bad behavior

> can be ascribed to " it, " the disease, Devil Drink, genes, however it is

> termed. Perhaps that is where much of the need to proseletyze comes

> from.

>

> Ken

I've never heard the words " Devil Drink " at online or f2f LSR or SOS. More

proof of your willful ignorance and your slanderous words, IMO.

Steve

[Guest guest]

> Just one more point. I'm curious on how 30-40 percent of members " owe

> their lives to AA " and _don't_ seriously steer group dynamics.

>

> Ken Ragge

Nobody said 30-40 pct " owe their lives " to AA... just that they are involved

in both AA and LSR.. more smears from you, Ken.

And as to why they don't " steer group dynamics, " since you've obviously

never seriously investigated, you wouldn't know.

Steve

[Guest guest]

> Just one more point. I'm curious on how 30-40 percent of members " owe

> their lives to AA " and _don't_ seriously steer group dynamics.

>

> Ken Ragge

Nobody said 30-40 pct " owe their lives " to AA... just that they are involved

in both AA and LSR.. more smears from you, Ken.

And as to why they don't " steer group dynamics, " since you've obviously

never seriously investigated, you wouldn't know.

Steve

[Guest guest]

> Just one more point. I'm curious on how 30-40 percent of members " owe

> their lives to AA " and _don't_ seriously steer group dynamics.

>

> Ken Ragge

Nobody said 30-40 pct " owe their lives " to AA... just that they are involved

in both AA and LSR.. more smears from you, Ken.

And as to why they don't " steer group dynamics, " since you've obviously

never seriously investigated, you wouldn't know.

Steve

[Guest guest]

Hi Rita: Duaine M here: You don't get it. You just don't get it. I don't think you ever will your mind is closed. You offer no salutations. You don't get it. You offer nothing. What will you give these people??? Nothing that's what you will give them and are giving them.(Nothing) I can only speak for myself in SOS. In SOS we in no way try to change a person. Open you mind and take this in (We in no way try to change a person) Try this thought--Different people coming together to support our differences. Can you grasp it yet??? We aren’t her to change each other--Rather we're here to celebrate our uniqueness. This is the concept. I encourage each person to search with in their self and find what they need do to live their life. Their life --Not mine --Not some one else's-- There is no hidden agenda. This is it. Re: Good Bye >> Sure more people get and stay sober with no group. So what. Shouldn't we care about all of us.> Is that a dirty word --Care -- Careing--> Where are you in all this??? Do you support living a sober life?? Do you reach out your hand and give encouragement?? In SOS I give encouragement.> I also let every one know that we are not the only way--We are not the best way--More people recover without any group.> Tell me Ken is that being coerced??> I also go to Texas Prisons and Jails. Many people I talk with tell me their not sure they want to contunue with SOS when they get out. I tell them it dosn't matter. Do whats right for them.> Without SOS who else would tell them that???>-------------- Hi Duaine -- Perhaps you do not understand what it means to be coerced into being involved with "recovery" groups. You talk about "caring" -- do you CARE about the pain suffered by people who are on the one hand told they must be "honest with themselves" and then on the other hand when they honestly state that they are among the majority who best stay sober without any group, are told they are "in denial"? -- that they will have their probation revoked, their children kept in foster care, or their suspension from work extended if they don't "admit" that they NEED some particular "recovery" group, and "need" to internalize its philosophy?? I'm sure SOS/LSR is a fine support group for those who desire such a thing. But an intrusive waste of time for those who don't. And I'll ask you the same thing I asked Steve -- what percentage of uninterested coercees who reject LSR's philosophy would be your personally comfortable limit at a given meeting? -- could you handle 10%? 30%? 75%? What if you attended a meeting with 5 newcomers, yourself, and 50 uninterested coercees who were reading the newspaper and listening to Walkmans? Would that be a worthwhile meeting for anyone that night?~Rita

[Guest guest]

Hi Rita: Duaine M here: You don't get it. You just don't get it. I don't think you ever will your mind is closed. You offer no salutations. You don't get it. You offer nothing. What will you give these people??? Nothing that's what you will give them and are giving them.(Nothing) I can only speak for myself in SOS. In SOS we in no way try to change a person. Open you mind and take this in (We in no way try to change a person) Try this thought--Different people coming together to support our differences. Can you grasp it yet??? We aren’t her to change each other--Rather we're here to celebrate our uniqueness. This is the concept. I encourage each person to search with in their self and find what they need do to live their life. Their life --Not mine --Not some one else's-- There is no hidden agenda. This is it. Re: Good Bye >> Sure more people get and stay sober with no group. So what. Shouldn't we care about all of us.> Is that a dirty word --Care -- Careing--> Where are you in all this??? Do you support living a sober life?? Do you reach out your hand and give encouragement?? In SOS I give encouragement.> I also let every one know that we are not the only way--We are not the best way--More people recover without any group.> Tell me Ken is that being coerced??> I also go to Texas Prisons and Jails. Many people I talk with tell me their not sure they want to contunue with SOS when they get out. I tell them it dosn't matter. Do whats right for them.> Without SOS who else would tell them that???>-------------- Hi Duaine -- Perhaps you do not understand what it means to be coerced into being involved with "recovery" groups. You talk about "caring" -- do you CARE about the pain suffered by people who are on the one hand told they must be "honest with themselves" and then on the other hand when they honestly state that they are among the majority who best stay sober without any group, are told they are "in denial"? -- that they will have their probation revoked, their children kept in foster care, or their suspension from work extended if they don't "admit" that they NEED some particular "recovery" group, and "need" to internalize its philosophy?? I'm sure SOS/LSR is a fine support group for those who desire such a thing. But an intrusive waste of time for those who don't. And I'll ask you the same thing I asked Steve -- what percentage of uninterested coercees who reject LSR's philosophy would be your personally comfortable limit at a given meeting? -- could you handle 10%? 30%? 75%? What if you attended a meeting with 5 newcomers, yourself, and 50 uninterested coercees who were reading the newspaper and listening to Walkmans? Would that be a worthwhile meeting for anyone that night?~Rita

[Guest guest]

Hi Rita: Duaine M here: You don't get it. You just don't get it. I don't think you ever will your mind is closed. You offer no salutations. You don't get it. You offer nothing. What will you give these people??? Nothing that's what you will give them and are giving them.(Nothing) I can only speak for myself in SOS. In SOS we in no way try to change a person. Open you mind and take this in (We in no way try to change a person) Try this thought--Different people coming together to support our differences. Can you grasp it yet??? We aren’t her to change each other--Rather we're here to celebrate our uniqueness. This is the concept. I encourage each person to search with in their self and find what they need do to live their life. Their life --Not mine --Not some one else's-- There is no hidden agenda. This is it. Re: Good Bye >> Sure more people get and stay sober with no group. So what. Shouldn't we care about all of us.> Is that a dirty word --Care -- Careing--> Where are you in all this??? Do you support living a sober life?? Do you reach out your hand and give encouragement?? In SOS I give encouragement.> I also let every one know that we are not the only way--We are not the best way--More people recover without any group.> Tell me Ken is that being coerced??> I also go to Texas Prisons and Jails. Many people I talk with tell me their not sure they want to contunue with SOS when they get out. I tell them it dosn't matter. Do whats right for them.> Without SOS who else would tell them that???>-------------- Hi Duaine -- Perhaps you do not understand what it means to be coerced into being involved with "recovery" groups. You talk about "caring" -- do you CARE about the pain suffered by people who are on the one hand told they must be "honest with themselves" and then on the other hand when they honestly state that they are among the majority who best stay sober without any group, are told they are "in denial"? -- that they will have their probation revoked, their children kept in foster care, or their suspension from work extended if they don't "admit" that they NEED some particular "recovery" group, and "need" to internalize its philosophy?? I'm sure SOS/LSR is a fine support group for those who desire such a thing. But an intrusive waste of time for those who don't. And I'll ask you the same thing I asked Steve -- what percentage of uninterested coercees who reject LSR's philosophy would be your personally comfortable limit at a given meeting? -- could you handle 10%? 30%? 75%? What if you attended a meeting with 5 newcomers, yourself, and 50 uninterested coercees who were reading the newspaper and listening to Walkmans? Would that be a worthwhile meeting for anyone that night?~Rita

[Guest guest]

Cool_Guy:

Just how cool are you?

Erudite - learned. Showing great learning.

The erudite Ken Ragge is still here. Some people just don't like his opinion.

Personally, I don't like most of what I've read here in the last 2 or 3 days,

or really I'm just rather bored with it, but that's okay - life goes on. If

the list fails to fill a sail or two for a long enough time, I'm free to

unsubscribe. I do know this - based on on the legal bullshit I've read -

I'll never join LSR/SOS. I've already rejected RR as really irrational, and

never got around to looking into SMART. I think I'll do what I've been doing

- choosing to stay abstinent because I damn well want to.

Jan

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

-------------------------------------------

In a message dated 8/11/01 3:44:12 PM Central Daylight Time,

cool_guy@... writes:

<< > > Where is the " erudite Ken Ragge " that some 12-step-free groupies

long for?

I hate it when I forget what erudite means and have to look it up in

the dictionary. It just makes me feel so... well, not erudite.

>>

[Guest guest]

Cool_Guy:

Just how cool are you?

Erudite - learned. Showing great learning.

The erudite Ken Ragge is still here. Some people just don't like his opinion.

Personally, I don't like most of what I've read here in the last 2 or 3 days,

or really I'm just rather bored with it, but that's okay - life goes on. If

the list fails to fill a sail or two for a long enough time, I'm free to

unsubscribe. I do know this - based on on the legal bullshit I've read -

I'll never join LSR/SOS. I've already rejected RR as really irrational, and

never got around to looking into SMART. I think I'll do what I've been doing

- choosing to stay abstinent because I damn well want to.

Jan

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

-------------------------------------------

In a message dated 8/11/01 3:44:12 PM Central Daylight Time,

cool_guy@... writes:

<< > > Where is the " erudite Ken Ragge " that some 12-step-free groupies

long for?

I hate it when I forget what erudite means and have to look it up in

the dictionary. It just makes me feel so... well, not erudite.

>>

[Guest guest]

> > > > > P.S. To above.

> > > > >

> > > > > I don't doubt the sincerity of those in LSR/SOS who had a

> > coffee

> > > > pot and

> > > > > resentment and started a new meeting. I do question how

far

> > > > removed

> > > > > they are from the meetings they left even if they've made

some

> > > > changes

> > > > > in language, completely wiping out the religious and

keeping

> > the AA

> > > > > science and alcohol as Devil Drink. I can understand the

> > > > attraction of

> > > > > genetics and " physiological differences. " It confers

> > innocence on

> > > > > repeated bad behavior while drunk. Just stop drinking,

which

> > one

> > > > wants

> > > > > to do anyway, and one not only has that benefit, but all

bad

> > > > behavior

> > > > > can be ascribed to " it, " the disease, Devil Drink, genes,

> > however

> > > > it is

> > > > > termed. Perhaps that is where much of the need to

proseletyze

> > > > comes

> > > > > from.

>

> Ken, you've already shown you don't know a damn thing about LSR or

SOS, in

> my opinion, and I'm sure others who are in one or the other or

both.

> > > >

>

> > > > They believe alcohol is Devil Drink (and a million other

> > > > assumptions) because it suits them and since they have a

false

> > > > belief, they must convince others of it to continue

believing it.

> More bullshit. I've never heard that phrase online or f2f at LSR

or SOS.

> Pure ignorant bullshit.

> Steve

Devil Drink is a phrase to describe the attitude that alcohol

is " bad. " You know like computers are bad, technology is bad... in

your case, science is bad. And that attitude (not the phrase

itself, you dolt) that alcohol is bad is supported by just about any

group that deals with " alcoholism " that I have ever had the

slightest exposure to. So grow up youngun. And for more bullshit

(that is assumptions that suit your type) let me remind you of the

disease theory, the gene bullshit and all the other shit you've made

up and decided to take as fact.

[Guest guest]

> > > > > P.S. To above.

> > > > >

> > > > > I don't doubt the sincerity of those in LSR/SOS who had a

> > coffee

> > > > pot and

> > > > > resentment and started a new meeting. I do question how

far

> > > > removed

> > > > > they are from the meetings they left even if they've made

some

> > > > changes

> > > > > in language, completely wiping out the religious and

keeping

> > the AA

> > > > > science and alcohol as Devil Drink. I can understand the

> > > > attraction of

> > > > > genetics and " physiological differences. " It confers

> > innocence on

> > > > > repeated bad behavior while drunk. Just stop drinking,

which

> > one

> > > > wants

> > > > > to do anyway, and one not only has that benefit, but all

bad

> > > > behavior

> > > > > can be ascribed to " it, " the disease, Devil Drink, genes,

> > however

> > > > it is

> > > > > termed. Perhaps that is where much of the need to

proseletyze

> > > > comes

> > > > > from.

>

> Ken, you've already shown you don't know a damn thing about LSR or

SOS, in

> my opinion, and I'm sure others who are in one or the other or

both.

> > > >

>

> > > > They believe alcohol is Devil Drink (and a million other

> > > > assumptions) because it suits them and since they have a

false

> > > > belief, they must convince others of it to continue

believing it.

> More bullshit. I've never heard that phrase online or f2f at LSR

or SOS.

> Pure ignorant bullshit.

> Steve

Devil Drink is a phrase to describe the attitude that alcohol

is " bad. " You know like computers are bad, technology is bad... in

your case, science is bad. And that attitude (not the phrase

itself, you dolt) that alcohol is bad is supported by just about any

group that deals with " alcoholism " that I have ever had the

slightest exposure to. So grow up youngun. And for more bullshit

(that is assumptions that suit your type) let me remind you of the

disease theory, the gene bullshit and all the other shit you've made

up and decided to take as fact.