Good Bye

[Guest guest]

>

> > Hi All:

> >

> > Duaine M here:

> >

> > In reply to what works best? I think as far as %es go (no

> > meeting of any kind) works for more people than, I think all

> > of the different kinds of groups combined. ???

> >

> > I could be wrong?

> >

> > It should be up to each of us what we want to use for our

> > recovery.

> >

>

> Duaine,

>

> Right on, but that is not the " recovery movement's " way of looking

at

> things. Without any hard evidence that their groups work better

than

> any other group or nothing, they seem to mostly join on the

bandwagon

> and compete, " It is not right that you coerce people to their group.

> You must allow them the choice to be coerced into mine. "

>

> Ken

Hi Duaine,

Agree with you.

Hi Ken,

Cute! Must be hanging around Pete-your turning into

a smart-ass too.

netty

[Guest guest]

>

> > Hi All:

> >

> > Duaine M here:

> >

> > In reply to what works best? I think as far as %es go (no

> > meeting of any kind) works for more people than, I think all

> > of the different kinds of groups combined. ???

> >

> > I could be wrong?

> >

> > It should be up to each of us what we want to use for our

> > recovery.

> >

>

> Duaine,

>

> Right on, but that is not the " recovery movement's " way of looking

at

> things. Without any hard evidence that their groups work better

than

> any other group or nothing, they seem to mostly join on the

bandwagon

> and compete, " It is not right that you coerce people to their group.

> You must allow them the choice to be coerced into mine. "

>

> Ken

Hi Duaine,

Agree with you.

Hi Ken,

Cute! Must be hanging around Pete-your turning into

a smart-ass too.

netty

[Guest guest]

>

> > Hi All:

> >

> > Duaine M here:

> >

> > In reply to what works best? I think as far as %es go (no

> > meeting of any kind) works for more people than, I think all

> > of the different kinds of groups combined. ???

> >

> > I could be wrong?

> >

> > It should be up to each of us what we want to use for our

> > recovery.

> >

>

> Duaine,

>

> Right on, but that is not the " recovery movement's " way of looking

at

> things. Without any hard evidence that their groups work better

than

> any other group or nothing, they seem to mostly join on the

bandwagon

> and compete, " It is not right that you coerce people to their group.

> You must allow them the choice to be coerced into mine. "

>

> Ken

Hi Duaine,

Agree with you.

Hi Ken,

Cute! Must be hanging around Pete-your turning into

a smart-ass too.

netty

[Guest guest]

>

>

> ----- Original Message -----

> From: cool guy

> Its funny that we

> humans would want to do that, but we do so often. And we hide the

> truth from others and deceive them on top of it. And people who

try

> to show you the truth get ran into the ground... and people (Mona?)

> flee from the truth... silly people. Thank you Ken!

> Duaine M here:

> We Humans??? We hide the truth??

Yeah dude, there are billions of people walking around that

believe one sort of bullshit or another in place of the truth, and

cling to that bullshit instead of discarding and finding the truth

(or something closer to it). Like steppers, or Christians, or those

guys into voodoo. Bullshit ad infinitum. It is really easy to

admit this stuff is bullshit but we humans, yes we humans, as

opposed to cows or dogs or eagles, keep on believing bullshit and

don't seek truth. I don't really know what the cows dogs and eagles

do, but I have experienced and witnessed what I am saying about

humans. Life is an onslaught of bullshit, and people, as in we

humans, become comfortable believing certain bullshit (which seems

to depend entirely on the individual) and do not grow anymore once

we settle in, once we (as individuals) are no longer (if ever we

were) open minded and curious and questioning.

> If you beleve this (Cool Guy) what are you hideing?? Where are you

in all this?? Is this list about recovery?? I would realy like to

know.

I'd really like to know that, too, about where I am at in all

this. I keep finding new things that prevent me from seeing truth.

For instance today I realized that there was this belief in my head

that Bill believed every word he wrote, that he really was

crazy (or inspired by God) and thought he was helping people. That

was a belief I had, for no particular reason, other than he wrote

seemingly genuinely. Well, after reading more and more and

thinking, I realized that I now believe he may not have been genuine

at all, in fact I tend to believe he was very disingenuous, perhaps

even more so than Clinton (or Bush).

So, with this new perspective, I have a closer view of the truth,

or the possible truth, that was not available with my previous

assumption that he " really meant it " . By believing some bullshit, I

was unable to see these other possibilities. Notably, that he was

in it for the money and it was really a grand way to make some

money. That he was really talented at building his little empire

and that there is probably a lot to be learned from studying him not

for errors about/in AA - I've seen plenty of those, but to find out

what made him successful. Now, being able to see that benefits me,

more than not being able to see it. I could possibly use some of

his strategies (that I was blind to before) to help me make some

money or help me get my points across as effectively as he did).

Its basically being able to look at something from an angle that

wasn't available before because that view was blocked by a pile of

bullshit.

I was happy to make this discovery, as I was happy to discover

that AA was a sham... but not every part of learning that AA was a

sham was pleasant... I learned things about myself that I didn't

want to know... that were painful, that humbeled me, that made me

feel stupid, or like a fool, or a stooge, but I got over the pain

and disgrace of those feelings and feel a lot better now knowing

more about me (and my world).

OK, so yesterday I thought about Bill W as a guy almost as bad as

Hitler and I hated him. But today, I must admit I dislike him

still, but it is hard to hate someone that I somewhat admire, which

I do now, since I no longer think he was merely a crazed brain

damaged drinker who accidentally started the phenomenon of XA.

OK, similarly, an average stepper believes he has an incurable

disease (some bullshit). Because of that bullshit that he believes,

he will believe (some more bullshit) he can cure his disease and

stay alive by doing the 12 steps. So he does the 12steps. The

truth though, from all known data, is that this disease does not

exist, and that he does not need to do the 12steps to stay alive.

But he chooses to believe bullshit instead of the truth, because...

who knows why we humans make this choice.... anyway believing that

bullshit ends up causing him to waste lots of his time and energy

AKA his life on more bullshit and limits whatever other truth he

tries to see.

Its kind of like holding your fingers in front of your eyes while

you try to read my email - you just can not see it, or at least not

as clearly as possible. Wouldn't it be wiser to move those fingers

out of your way? Of course, but a lot of times we humans (remember

eagles don't have fingers) continue to try to see despite those

fingers - or the bullshit that is in the way and holding them back.

> If this is a place to hang and get high, I'm out. May be you

could be up front and let some one who isn't a (Cool Guy) know where

he stands??

I don't know where you stand. Do you go to church? Do you go to

meetings? Do you vote? Do you work? Do you pay taxes? Are you in

the military? Are you a cop? Are you a government employee? Its

endless... I can't know what you believe and what is right or wrong

about what you believe... I could make lots of assumptions or

guesses if I knew something about you, but that would probably be

rude and that is not my job anyway.

I mentioned Clinton earlier. I hated Clinton for about 6 or 7

years of his presidency. Then I started to admire him and be

inspired by him... and it is kind of hard to hate someone who can

inspire you... in fact it is a chore just to hate people, in

general, but I digress. Without hating the guy, I am able to look

at him more objectivly. Thanks to him I have learned to look at

people in general more objectively, with less prejudice and I have

learned not to hate or love anyone too passionately, which helps to

see what is really there... the truth about them. Anyway, Clinton

is a normal man, not extraordinary at all, from Arkansas, one of the

shittiest states the US has, and not extremely rich compared to a

lot of others, yet somehow he managed to become president. I think

I am a fuck up. But I think he is a really big fuck up, and he

became president... that gives me hope and reminds me that I could

do just about anything... which is a good belief to have. So thanks

Bill Clinton, you fucker, for helping to instill that belief in me.

As opposed to some asshole preacher who would have me believe I will

burn in hell for eternity if I ever miss church or a stepper who

would have me believe I will die the next time I take a drink. I'd

rather believe something that is true and empowering than some

bullshit.

[Guest guest]

>

>

> ----- Original Message -----

> From: cool guy

> Its funny that we

> humans would want to do that, but we do so often. And we hide the

> truth from others and deceive them on top of it. And people who

try

> to show you the truth get ran into the ground... and people (Mona?)

> flee from the truth... silly people. Thank you Ken!

> Duaine M here:

> We Humans??? We hide the truth??

Yeah dude, there are billions of people walking around that

believe one sort of bullshit or another in place of the truth, and

cling to that bullshit instead of discarding and finding the truth

(or something closer to it). Like steppers, or Christians, or those

guys into voodoo. Bullshit ad infinitum. It is really easy to

admit this stuff is bullshit but we humans, yes we humans, as

opposed to cows or dogs or eagles, keep on believing bullshit and

don't seek truth. I don't really know what the cows dogs and eagles

do, but I have experienced and witnessed what I am saying about

humans. Life is an onslaught of bullshit, and people, as in we

humans, become comfortable believing certain bullshit (which seems

to depend entirely on the individual) and do not grow anymore once

we settle in, once we (as individuals) are no longer (if ever we

were) open minded and curious and questioning.

> If you beleve this (Cool Guy) what are you hideing?? Where are you

in all this?? Is this list about recovery?? I would realy like to

know.

I'd really like to know that, too, about where I am at in all

this. I keep finding new things that prevent me from seeing truth.

For instance today I realized that there was this belief in my head

that Bill believed every word he wrote, that he really was

crazy (or inspired by God) and thought he was helping people. That

was a belief I had, for no particular reason, other than he wrote

seemingly genuinely. Well, after reading more and more and

thinking, I realized that I now believe he may not have been genuine

at all, in fact I tend to believe he was very disingenuous, perhaps

even more so than Clinton (or Bush).

So, with this new perspective, I have a closer view of the truth,

or the possible truth, that was not available with my previous

assumption that he " really meant it " . By believing some bullshit, I

was unable to see these other possibilities. Notably, that he was

in it for the money and it was really a grand way to make some

money. That he was really talented at building his little empire

and that there is probably a lot to be learned from studying him not

for errors about/in AA - I've seen plenty of those, but to find out

what made him successful. Now, being able to see that benefits me,

more than not being able to see it. I could possibly use some of

his strategies (that I was blind to before) to help me make some

money or help me get my points across as effectively as he did).

Its basically being able to look at something from an angle that

wasn't available before because that view was blocked by a pile of

bullshit.

I was happy to make this discovery, as I was happy to discover

that AA was a sham... but not every part of learning that AA was a

sham was pleasant... I learned things about myself that I didn't

want to know... that were painful, that humbeled me, that made me

feel stupid, or like a fool, or a stooge, but I got over the pain

and disgrace of those feelings and feel a lot better now knowing

more about me (and my world).

OK, so yesterday I thought about Bill W as a guy almost as bad as

Hitler and I hated him. But today, I must admit I dislike him

still, but it is hard to hate someone that I somewhat admire, which

I do now, since I no longer think he was merely a crazed brain

damaged drinker who accidentally started the phenomenon of XA.

OK, similarly, an average stepper believes he has an incurable

disease (some bullshit). Because of that bullshit that he believes,

he will believe (some more bullshit) he can cure his disease and

stay alive by doing the 12 steps. So he does the 12steps. The

truth though, from all known data, is that this disease does not

exist, and that he does not need to do the 12steps to stay alive.

But he chooses to believe bullshit instead of the truth, because...

who knows why we humans make this choice.... anyway believing that

bullshit ends up causing him to waste lots of his time and energy

AKA his life on more bullshit and limits whatever other truth he

tries to see.

Its kind of like holding your fingers in front of your eyes while

you try to read my email - you just can not see it, or at least not

as clearly as possible. Wouldn't it be wiser to move those fingers

out of your way? Of course, but a lot of times we humans (remember

eagles don't have fingers) continue to try to see despite those

fingers - or the bullshit that is in the way and holding them back.

> If this is a place to hang and get high, I'm out. May be you

could be up front and let some one who isn't a (Cool Guy) know where

he stands??

I don't know where you stand. Do you go to church? Do you go to

meetings? Do you vote? Do you work? Do you pay taxes? Are you in

the military? Are you a cop? Are you a government employee? Its

endless... I can't know what you believe and what is right or wrong

about what you believe... I could make lots of assumptions or

guesses if I knew something about you, but that would probably be

rude and that is not my job anyway.

I mentioned Clinton earlier. I hated Clinton for about 6 or 7

years of his presidency. Then I started to admire him and be

inspired by him... and it is kind of hard to hate someone who can

inspire you... in fact it is a chore just to hate people, in

general, but I digress. Without hating the guy, I am able to look

at him more objectivly. Thanks to him I have learned to look at

people in general more objectively, with less prejudice and I have

learned not to hate or love anyone too passionately, which helps to

see what is really there... the truth about them. Anyway, Clinton

is a normal man, not extraordinary at all, from Arkansas, one of the

shittiest states the US has, and not extremely rich compared to a

lot of others, yet somehow he managed to become president. I think

I am a fuck up. But I think he is a really big fuck up, and he

became president... that gives me hope and reminds me that I could

do just about anything... which is a good belief to have. So thanks

Bill Clinton, you fucker, for helping to instill that belief in me.

As opposed to some asshole preacher who would have me believe I will

burn in hell for eternity if I ever miss church or a stepper who

would have me believe I will die the next time I take a drink. I'd

rather believe something that is true and empowering than some

bullshit.

[Guest guest]

>

>

> ----- Original Message -----

> From: cool guy

> Its funny that we

> humans would want to do that, but we do so often. And we hide the

> truth from others and deceive them on top of it. And people who

try

> to show you the truth get ran into the ground... and people (Mona?)

> flee from the truth... silly people. Thank you Ken!

> Duaine M here:

> We Humans??? We hide the truth??

Yeah dude, there are billions of people walking around that

believe one sort of bullshit or another in place of the truth, and

cling to that bullshit instead of discarding and finding the truth

(or something closer to it). Like steppers, or Christians, or those

guys into voodoo. Bullshit ad infinitum. It is really easy to

admit this stuff is bullshit but we humans, yes we humans, as

opposed to cows or dogs or eagles, keep on believing bullshit and

don't seek truth. I don't really know what the cows dogs and eagles

do, but I have experienced and witnessed what I am saying about

humans. Life is an onslaught of bullshit, and people, as in we

humans, become comfortable believing certain bullshit (which seems

to depend entirely on the individual) and do not grow anymore once

we settle in, once we (as individuals) are no longer (if ever we

were) open minded and curious and questioning.

> If you beleve this (Cool Guy) what are you hideing?? Where are you

in all this?? Is this list about recovery?? I would realy like to

know.

I'd really like to know that, too, about where I am at in all

this. I keep finding new things that prevent me from seeing truth.

For instance today I realized that there was this belief in my head

that Bill believed every word he wrote, that he really was

crazy (or inspired by God) and thought he was helping people. That

was a belief I had, for no particular reason, other than he wrote

seemingly genuinely. Well, after reading more and more and

thinking, I realized that I now believe he may not have been genuine

at all, in fact I tend to believe he was very disingenuous, perhaps

even more so than Clinton (or Bush).

So, with this new perspective, I have a closer view of the truth,

or the possible truth, that was not available with my previous

assumption that he " really meant it " . By believing some bullshit, I

was unable to see these other possibilities. Notably, that he was

in it for the money and it was really a grand way to make some

money. That he was really talented at building his little empire

and that there is probably a lot to be learned from studying him not

for errors about/in AA - I've seen plenty of those, but to find out

what made him successful. Now, being able to see that benefits me,

more than not being able to see it. I could possibly use some of

his strategies (that I was blind to before) to help me make some

money or help me get my points across as effectively as he did).

Its basically being able to look at something from an angle that

wasn't available before because that view was blocked by a pile of

bullshit.

I was happy to make this discovery, as I was happy to discover

that AA was a sham... but not every part of learning that AA was a

sham was pleasant... I learned things about myself that I didn't

want to know... that were painful, that humbeled me, that made me

feel stupid, or like a fool, or a stooge, but I got over the pain

and disgrace of those feelings and feel a lot better now knowing

more about me (and my world).

OK, so yesterday I thought about Bill W as a guy almost as bad as

Hitler and I hated him. But today, I must admit I dislike him

still, but it is hard to hate someone that I somewhat admire, which

I do now, since I no longer think he was merely a crazed brain

damaged drinker who accidentally started the phenomenon of XA.

OK, similarly, an average stepper believes he has an incurable

disease (some bullshit). Because of that bullshit that he believes,

he will believe (some more bullshit) he can cure his disease and

stay alive by doing the 12 steps. So he does the 12steps. The

truth though, from all known data, is that this disease does not

exist, and that he does not need to do the 12steps to stay alive.

But he chooses to believe bullshit instead of the truth, because...

who knows why we humans make this choice.... anyway believing that

bullshit ends up causing him to waste lots of his time and energy

AKA his life on more bullshit and limits whatever other truth he

tries to see.

Its kind of like holding your fingers in front of your eyes while

you try to read my email - you just can not see it, or at least not

as clearly as possible. Wouldn't it be wiser to move those fingers

out of your way? Of course, but a lot of times we humans (remember

eagles don't have fingers) continue to try to see despite those

fingers - or the bullshit that is in the way and holding them back.

> If this is a place to hang and get high, I'm out. May be you

could be up front and let some one who isn't a (Cool Guy) know where

he stands??

I don't know where you stand. Do you go to church? Do you go to

meetings? Do you vote? Do you work? Do you pay taxes? Are you in

the military? Are you a cop? Are you a government employee? Its

endless... I can't know what you believe and what is right or wrong

about what you believe... I could make lots of assumptions or

guesses if I knew something about you, but that would probably be

rude and that is not my job anyway.

I mentioned Clinton earlier. I hated Clinton for about 6 or 7

years of his presidency. Then I started to admire him and be

inspired by him... and it is kind of hard to hate someone who can

inspire you... in fact it is a chore just to hate people, in

general, but I digress. Without hating the guy, I am able to look

at him more objectivly. Thanks to him I have learned to look at

people in general more objectively, with less prejudice and I have

learned not to hate or love anyone too passionately, which helps to

see what is really there... the truth about them. Anyway, Clinton

is a normal man, not extraordinary at all, from Arkansas, one of the

shittiest states the US has, and not extremely rich compared to a

lot of others, yet somehow he managed to become president. I think

I am a fuck up. But I think he is a really big fuck up, and he

became president... that gives me hope and reminds me that I could

do just about anything... which is a good belief to have. So thanks

Bill Clinton, you fucker, for helping to instill that belief in me.

As opposed to some asshole preacher who would have me believe I will

burn in hell for eternity if I ever miss church or a stepper who

would have me believe I will die the next time I take a drink. I'd

rather believe something that is true and empowering than some

bullshit.

[Guest guest]

cool guy wrote:

> Well what have we here... two people I generally agree with on most

> things having a very exciting argument! Cool.

>

>

> > Who cares? You have a right to believe what you want and say what

> you

> > want. I'm not the one who defends coercion to ideological (as

> opposed

> > to religious) groups.

>

> Oddly enough I am siding with you here, Ken. I disagree with

> coercion at just about every level. Especially as a punishment for

> a crime. I think " giving " something to someone who has commited a

> crime is a silly thing to do. I think a violator of law should be

> punished in traditional ways... either jail or fine, until someone

> thinks of something better. If they choose, after enduring their

> punishment, to do something that will help them better themselves

> then that is wonderful - but it should remain their own choice and

> their own responsibility. Not the state's. Certainly there are

> plenty of " charities " (far too many, IMO) that are willing to " lend

> a hand " (AA comes to mind) to people who are struggling or are

> troubled. I do not agree with mixing charity and state, which is

> done to a ridiculous extent already. And coercing (and funding) XA

> (or other treatment/program/group/etc) is a form of charity (though

> an unwanted one in most cases). In order to " give " any of this type

> of " help " the state has to take from someone else. I don't like the

> thought of taking from people who obey laws to give to those who

> don't. This is not too hard to comprehend, is it?

>

Coolguy,

My first line was to be:

This doesn't have to stay boring. We can disagree some starting now.

but it's getting late and I've got to run. I'm sure we can disagree in the

near future.

Ken

[Guest guest]

cool guy wrote:

> Well what have we here... two people I generally agree with on most

> things having a very exciting argument! Cool.

>

>

> > Who cares? You have a right to believe what you want and say what

> you

> > want. I'm not the one who defends coercion to ideological (as

> opposed

> > to religious) groups.

>

> Oddly enough I am siding with you here, Ken. I disagree with

> coercion at just about every level. Especially as a punishment for

> a crime. I think " giving " something to someone who has commited a

> crime is a silly thing to do. I think a violator of law should be

> punished in traditional ways... either jail or fine, until someone

> thinks of something better. If they choose, after enduring their

> punishment, to do something that will help them better themselves

> then that is wonderful - but it should remain their own choice and

> their own responsibility. Not the state's. Certainly there are

> plenty of " charities " (far too many, IMO) that are willing to " lend

> a hand " (AA comes to mind) to people who are struggling or are

> troubled. I do not agree with mixing charity and state, which is

> done to a ridiculous extent already. And coercing (and funding) XA

> (or other treatment/program/group/etc) is a form of charity (though

> an unwanted one in most cases). In order to " give " any of this type

> of " help " the state has to take from someone else. I don't like the

> thought of taking from people who obey laws to give to those who

> don't. This is not too hard to comprehend, is it?

>

Coolguy,

My first line was to be:

This doesn't have to stay boring. We can disagree some starting now.

but it's getting late and I've got to run. I'm sure we can disagree in the

near future.

Ken

[Guest guest]

caenemy@... wrote:

>

> >

> > > Hi All:

> > >

> > > Duaine M here:

> > >

> > > In reply to what works best? I think as far as %es go (no

> > > meeting of any kind) works for more people than, I think all

> > > of the different kinds of groups combined. ???

> > >

> > > I could be wrong?

> > >

> > > It should be up to each of us what we want to use for our

> > > recovery.

> > >

> >

> > Duaine,

> >

> > Right on, but that is not the " recovery movement's " way of looking

> at

> > things. Without any hard evidence that their groups work better

> than

> > any other group or nothing, they seem to mostly join on the

> bandwagon

> > and compete, " It is not right that you coerce people to their group.

> > You must allow them the choice to be coerced into mine. "

> >

> > Ken

>

> Hi Duaine,

> Agree with you.

>

> Hi Ken,

> Cute! Must be hanging around Pete-your turning into

> a smart-ass too.

> netty

>

Hi Netty,

No, not Pete. I've been a smart-ass for a long, long time.

However, there is a great deal of competition between SOS, LSR and SMART to

be chosen by various government agencies as alternative groups to coerce

people to.

Ken

[Guest guest]

caenemy@... wrote:

>

> >

> > > Hi All:

> > >

> > > Duaine M here:

> > >

> > > In reply to what works best? I think as far as %es go (no

> > > meeting of any kind) works for more people than, I think all

> > > of the different kinds of groups combined. ???

> > >

> > > I could be wrong?

> > >

> > > It should be up to each of us what we want to use for our

> > > recovery.

> > >

> >

> > Duaine,

> >

> > Right on, but that is not the " recovery movement's " way of looking

> at

> > things. Without any hard evidence that their groups work better

> than

> > any other group or nothing, they seem to mostly join on the

> bandwagon

> > and compete, " It is not right that you coerce people to their group.

> > You must allow them the choice to be coerced into mine. "

> >

> > Ken

>

> Hi Duaine,

> Agree with you.

>

> Hi Ken,

> Cute! Must be hanging around Pete-your turning into

> a smart-ass too.

> netty

>

Hi Netty,

No, not Pete. I've been a smart-ass for a long, long time.

However, there is a great deal of competition between SOS, LSR and SMART to

be chosen by various government agencies as alternative groups to coerce

people to.

Ken

[Guest guest]

Coolguy wrote:

> I could possibly use some of

> his strategies (that I was blind to before) to help me make some

> money or help me get my points across as effectively as he did).

>

Probably the best references for learning his strategies are the

following:

Soul Surgery, 1918, Walter is an instruction manual for converting

people (e.g. ) to the Oxford Group.

Though Reform and the Psychology of Totalism, RJ Lifton. One of two

classic works on brainwashing in China. Has been used by modern

American cult leaders to get started.

Coercive Persuasion, Schein et al. The other classic work on Chinese

thought reform. Years ago when I was researching and checking the UCLA

library computers, I found there was one copy in the psychology library

and two in the business management library.

Combatting Cult Mind Control, Steve Hassan. Ex-Moonie wrote about

modern American cults and their techniques.

They will have plenty of references to scientific studies on opinion

change.

Ken

P.S. If you start your own Amway, please don't credit me.

[Guest guest]

Coolguy wrote:

> I could possibly use some of

> his strategies (that I was blind to before) to help me make some

> money or help me get my points across as effectively as he did).

>

Probably the best references for learning his strategies are the

following:

Soul Surgery, 1918, Walter is an instruction manual for converting

people (e.g. ) to the Oxford Group.

Though Reform and the Psychology of Totalism, RJ Lifton. One of two

classic works on brainwashing in China. Has been used by modern

American cult leaders to get started.

Coercive Persuasion, Schein et al. The other classic work on Chinese

thought reform. Years ago when I was researching and checking the UCLA

library computers, I found there was one copy in the psychology library

and two in the business management library.

Combatting Cult Mind Control, Steve Hassan. Ex-Moonie wrote about

modern American cults and their techniques.

They will have plenty of references to scientific studies on opinion

change.

Ken

P.S. If you start your own Amway, please don't credit me.

[Guest guest]

Coolguy wrote:

> I could possibly use some of

> his strategies (that I was blind to before) to help me make some

> money or help me get my points across as effectively as he did).

>

Probably the best references for learning his strategies are the

following:

Soul Surgery, 1918, Walter is an instruction manual for converting

people (e.g. ) to the Oxford Group.

Though Reform and the Psychology of Totalism, RJ Lifton. One of two

classic works on brainwashing in China. Has been used by modern

American cult leaders to get started.

Coercive Persuasion, Schein et al. The other classic work on Chinese

thought reform. Years ago when I was researching and checking the UCLA

library computers, I found there was one copy in the psychology library

and two in the business management library.

Combatting Cult Mind Control, Steve Hassan. Ex-Moonie wrote about

modern American cults and their techniques.

They will have plenty of references to scientific studies on opinion

change.

Ken

P.S. If you start your own Amway, please don't credit me.

[Guest guest]

> > > P.S. To above.

> > >

> > > I don't doubt the sincerity of those in LSR/SOS who had a

coffee

> > pot and

> > > resentment and started a new meeting. I do question how far

> > removed

> > > they are from the meetings they left even if they've made some

> > changes

> > > in language, completely wiping out the religious and keeping

the AA

> > > science and alcohol as Devil Drink. I can understand the

> > attraction of

> > > genetics and " physiological differences. " It confers

innocence on

> > > repeated bad behavior while drunk. Just stop drinking, which

one

> > wants

> > > to do anyway, and one not only has that benefit, but all bad

> > behavior

> > > can be ascribed to " it, " the disease, Devil Drink, genes,

however

> > it is

> > > termed. Perhaps that is where much of the need to proseletyze

> > comes

> > > from.

> >

> > It is just easier to believe something if you can convince

> > someone else of it. So these groups proselytize, since they are

not

> > based on things that can be proven, but on things that must be

> > believed. Anything that requires belief will be proselytized, to

> > make it more believable to the proselytes and the originator of

the

> > belief (unless he is knowingly deceiving them only for his own

gain,

> > in which case the proselytes proselytize to help confirm to

> > themselves their own beliefs, while the originator is pushing his

> > own agenda for power/money/etc).

> > They believe alcohol is Devil Drink (and a million other

> > assumptions) because it suits them and since they have a false

> > belief, they must convince others of it to continue believing it.

> > Or to keep up the game, playing the charade, maintaining their

> > reality. Ultimately a way to avoid the truth. Its funny that we

> > humans would want to do that, but we do so often. And we hide

the

> > truth from others and deceive them on top of it. And people who

try

> > to show you the truth get ran into the ground... and people

(Mona?)

> > flee from the truth... silly people. Thank you Ken!

> >

>

> Coolguy,

>

> I think you are right on here. The only thing, is that in many

ways I'm

> sympathetic to their position. I was once a " true believer " in AA

and it

> took a lot of time and a lot of research to question and change

beliefs that

> I had picked up in the groups and/or in the media without ever

questioning

> them.

Thanks Ken. I try to be wholly sympathetic to " them " myself. I

was once a true believer in AA and in other things that I've since

found out were Wrong. It took a lot of time and courage, thought

and energy and... the help of others, to see these things for what

they really were (not that I do completely now or ever could).

Growth is painful, and I believe I have a lot more sympathy and

compassion for other human beings than I did when I was younger,

because I have gone through these things and they are either going

through similar things or are stuck in things that hold them back,

or have been in the past. Realising just how hard life is for me,

and that it is probably just as hard or harder for most others makes

it a little easier to empathise and not judge.

> The step groups, as other groups that are commonly referred to as

cults or

> destructive cults generally go after people when they are at a

trouble point

> in their lives. After the group influences have been adopted, it

is very

> difficult, often very painful, to challenge the very beliefs which

were used

> as manipulation and as escape from an intolerable situation to

start with.

Exactly, painful and scary. From the movie, Dune... " Fear is the

mind killer. " Paralyzes it. Makes you not question, and not want

to know the answers. And makes you confused, and so do the huge

helpings of BS that AA fed you. And makes you not trust (which is

good in many cases). So it is not easy, by any means, with all the

pain and fear to deal with, but I think eventually the

(unpleasantness of) fear is what causes action, after so much

inaction.

And I know that most cults operate basically the same way (and I

count damn near all of the world's religions in this same

category). They either proselityse to the weak, infirm, troubled or

young. So I seek your opinions on some somewhat related ideas. How

can you teach people not to fall for it? Is it something one must

learn for one's self? I think parents have to teach their children

how to decipher truth from untruth, to distiguish which beliefs they

hold and which are healthy, and unfortunately not everyone is very

good at that by the time they have kids. Having a parent

proselytise you (before you can even do anything else, practically)

makes it even harder than " undoing " the beliefs learned in AA from a

bunch of people who's last names you don't even know, I would

think... and if the parent is fooled, the offsrping will be, too?

> Moreover, so much is adopted unawares, where the influences are so

subtle not

> only are the influences not noticed but but the adoption of ideas

as the

> truth one bases one life on is done without serious questioning.

Yes, this is true about AA and just about everything else that

gives us the beliefs we run our lives on. It can be hard to change

beliefs or to even know what you believe, and it can be hard to

trust yourself after you've screwed up. And regarding " the adoption

of ideas " you mentioned... it is amazing how we tend to adopt (so

many bad) ideas that prevent other ideas from even being considered.

It is not

> surprising that they come out of their experience thinking they

got away scot

> free because there were sticking points on some ideas.

What do you mean?

> Might sound trivial and I suppose it is, but years after I left

AA, my e-mail

> name was Ken R. and my address book is _still_ organized by first

name rather

> than the pre-AA last name.

Well I still retain some anonymity ;-)

And I keep track of people in the organiser by first name too. I

wonder how many people do that?

[Guest guest]

> > > P.S. To above.

> > >

> > > I don't doubt the sincerity of those in LSR/SOS who had a

coffee

> > pot and

> > > resentment and started a new meeting. I do question how far

> > removed

> > > they are from the meetings they left even if they've made some

> > changes

> > > in language, completely wiping out the religious and keeping

the AA

> > > science and alcohol as Devil Drink. I can understand the

> > attraction of

> > > genetics and " physiological differences. " It confers

innocence on

> > > repeated bad behavior while drunk. Just stop drinking, which

one

> > wants

> > > to do anyway, and one not only has that benefit, but all bad

> > behavior

> > > can be ascribed to " it, " the disease, Devil Drink, genes,

however

> > it is

> > > termed. Perhaps that is where much of the need to proseletyze

> > comes

> > > from.

> >

> > It is just easier to believe something if you can convince

> > someone else of it. So these groups proselytize, since they are

not

> > based on things that can be proven, but on things that must be

> > believed. Anything that requires belief will be proselytized, to

> > make it more believable to the proselytes and the originator of

the

> > belief (unless he is knowingly deceiving them only for his own

gain,

> > in which case the proselytes proselytize to help confirm to

> > themselves their own beliefs, while the originator is pushing his

> > own agenda for power/money/etc).

> > They believe alcohol is Devil Drink (and a million other

> > assumptions) because it suits them and since they have a false

> > belief, they must convince others of it to continue believing it.

> > Or to keep up the game, playing the charade, maintaining their

> > reality. Ultimately a way to avoid the truth. Its funny that we

> > humans would want to do that, but we do so often. And we hide

the

> > truth from others and deceive them on top of it. And people who

try

> > to show you the truth get ran into the ground... and people

(Mona?)

> > flee from the truth... silly people. Thank you Ken!

> >

>

> Coolguy,

>

> I think you are right on here. The only thing, is that in many

ways I'm

> sympathetic to their position. I was once a " true believer " in AA

and it

> took a lot of time and a lot of research to question and change

beliefs that

> I had picked up in the groups and/or in the media without ever

questioning

> them.

Thanks Ken. I try to be wholly sympathetic to " them " myself. I

was once a true believer in AA and in other things that I've since

found out were Wrong. It took a lot of time and courage, thought

and energy and... the help of others, to see these things for what

they really were (not that I do completely now or ever could).

Growth is painful, and I believe I have a lot more sympathy and

compassion for other human beings than I did when I was younger,

because I have gone through these things and they are either going

through similar things or are stuck in things that hold them back,

or have been in the past. Realising just how hard life is for me,

and that it is probably just as hard or harder for most others makes

it a little easier to empathise and not judge.

> The step groups, as other groups that are commonly referred to as

cults or

> destructive cults generally go after people when they are at a

trouble point

> in their lives. After the group influences have been adopted, it

is very

> difficult, often very painful, to challenge the very beliefs which

were used

> as manipulation and as escape from an intolerable situation to

start with.

Exactly, painful and scary. From the movie, Dune... " Fear is the

mind killer. " Paralyzes it. Makes you not question, and not want

to know the answers. And makes you confused, and so do the huge

helpings of BS that AA fed you. And makes you not trust (which is

good in many cases). So it is not easy, by any means, with all the

pain and fear to deal with, but I think eventually the

(unpleasantness of) fear is what causes action, after so much

inaction.

And I know that most cults operate basically the same way (and I

count damn near all of the world's religions in this same

category). They either proselityse to the weak, infirm, troubled or

young. So I seek your opinions on some somewhat related ideas. How

can you teach people not to fall for it? Is it something one must

learn for one's self? I think parents have to teach their children

how to decipher truth from untruth, to distiguish which beliefs they

hold and which are healthy, and unfortunately not everyone is very

good at that by the time they have kids. Having a parent

proselytise you (before you can even do anything else, practically)

makes it even harder than " undoing " the beliefs learned in AA from a

bunch of people who's last names you don't even know, I would

think... and if the parent is fooled, the offsrping will be, too?

> Moreover, so much is adopted unawares, where the influences are so

subtle not

> only are the influences not noticed but but the adoption of ideas

as the

> truth one bases one life on is done without serious questioning.

Yes, this is true about AA and just about everything else that

gives us the beliefs we run our lives on. It can be hard to change

beliefs or to even know what you believe, and it can be hard to

trust yourself after you've screwed up. And regarding " the adoption

of ideas " you mentioned... it is amazing how we tend to adopt (so

many bad) ideas that prevent other ideas from even being considered.

It is not

> surprising that they come out of their experience thinking they

got away scot

> free because there were sticking points on some ideas.

What do you mean?

> Might sound trivial and I suppose it is, but years after I left

AA, my e-mail

> name was Ken R. and my address book is _still_ organized by first

name rather

> than the pre-AA last name.

Well I still retain some anonymity ;-)

And I keep track of people in the organiser by first name too. I

wonder how many people do that?

[Guest guest]

>

>

> you conspiratorial asshole.

> groundless, baseless

assertion

> willfully

> ignorant

> your narrow minded

> You are being willfully perverse

> > and malicious in distorting and outrightly lying

> > Yes, I am calling you a malicious liar

> Steve

>

>

> Steve,

> Nice words!

> Are you a little threatened?

>

> netty

No Netty that is what Stevo says when he is really happy. He was

really happy because that asshole Ken is out telling " the lies about

AA " again and because he doesn't have any proof that any thing Ken

says is not true. He can't back this argument up with psychobabble

as well as he normally can so he is happy and excited.

[Guest guest]

>

>

> you conspiratorial asshole.

> groundless, baseless

assertion

> willfully

> ignorant

> your narrow minded

> You are being willfully perverse

> > and malicious in distorting and outrightly lying

> > Yes, I am calling you a malicious liar

> Steve

>

>

> Steve,

> Nice words!

> Are you a little threatened?

>

> netty

No Netty that is what Stevo says when he is really happy. He was

really happy because that asshole Ken is out telling " the lies about

AA " again and because he doesn't have any proof that any thing Ken

says is not true. He can't back this argument up with psychobabble

as well as he normally can so he is happy and excited.

[Guest guest]

>

>

> you conspiratorial asshole.

> groundless, baseless

assertion

> willfully

> ignorant

> your narrow minded

> You are being willfully perverse

> > and malicious in distorting and outrightly lying

> > Yes, I am calling you a malicious liar

> Steve

>

>

> Steve,

> Nice words!

> Are you a little threatened?

>

> netty

No Netty that is what Stevo says when he is really happy. He was

really happy because that asshole Ken is out telling " the lies about

AA " again and because he doesn't have any proof that any thing Ken

says is not true. He can't back this argument up with psychobabble

as well as he normally can so he is happy and excited.

[Guest guest]

'Bye, Mona....I'm trying to leave, too. Well, not quite leave, actually. I was

going to

switch to web-only so that I don't get all these e-mails in my computer. This

is not my

only account, and not my only e-list. My poor computer is overflowing as I

devote my time

to this list. I want to switch to web-only so that I can check in from time to

time and

only look at certain posts, but, well, I guess I'm powerless over this list, and

my

computer has become unmanageable.

Maybe tomorrow I can resist looking at the posts and go to Yahoo and switch....

Cheers,

nz

[Guest guest]

'Bye, Mona....I'm trying to leave, too. Well, not quite leave, actually. I was

going to

switch to web-only so that I don't get all these e-mails in my computer. This

is not my

only account, and not my only e-list. My poor computer is overflowing as I

devote my time

to this list. I want to switch to web-only so that I can check in from time to

time and

only look at certain posts, but, well, I guess I'm powerless over this list, and

my

computer has become unmanageable.

Maybe tomorrow I can resist looking at the posts and go to Yahoo and switch....

Cheers,

nz

[Guest guest]

'Bye, Mona....I'm trying to leave, too. Well, not quite leave, actually. I was

going to

switch to web-only so that I don't get all these e-mails in my computer. This

is not my

only account, and not my only e-list. My poor computer is overflowing as I

devote my time

to this list. I want to switch to web-only so that I can check in from time to

time and

only look at certain posts, but, well, I guess I'm powerless over this list, and

my

computer has become unmanageable.

Maybe tomorrow I can resist looking at the posts and go to Yahoo and switch....

Cheers,

nz

[Guest guest]

>

> > I could possibly use some of

> > his strategies (that I was blind to before) to help me make some

> > money or help me get my points across as effectively as he did).

> >

>

> Probably the best references for learning his strategies are the

> following:

>

> Soul Surgery, 1918, Walter is an instruction manual for converting

> people (e.g. ) to the Oxford Group.

>

> Though Reform and the Psychology of Totalism, RJ Lifton. One of

two

> classic works on brainwashing in China. Has been used by modern

> American cult leaders to get started.

>

> Coercive Persuasion, Schein et al. The other classic work on

Chinese

> thought reform. Years ago when I was researching and checking the

UCLA

> library computers, I found there was one copy in the psychology

library

> and two in the business management library.

>

> Combatting Cult Mind Control, Steve Hassan. Ex-Moonie wrote about

> modern American cults and their techniques.

>

> They will have plenty of references to scientific studies on

opinion

> change.

>

> Ken

>

> P.S. If you start your own Amway, please don't credit me.

I appreciate these links. I have been concerned with cults and

the cult like aspects of various entities for quite a while now, and

some serious study probably is in order. These books appear to fit

the bill. And as you might suspect, I am more interested in these

things from a business/marketing perspective than from a psychology

perspective.

Also, something I wish I could learn from Bill is to write with

his style that is so readable for functionally illiterate people.

It is not so easy actually - he must have been blessed with it!

[Guest guest]

>

> > I could possibly use some of

> > his strategies (that I was blind to before) to help me make some

> > money or help me get my points across as effectively as he did).

> >

>

> Probably the best references for learning his strategies are the

> following:

>

> Soul Surgery, 1918, Walter is an instruction manual for converting

> people (e.g. ) to the Oxford Group.

>

> Though Reform and the Psychology of Totalism, RJ Lifton. One of

two

> classic works on brainwashing in China. Has been used by modern

> American cult leaders to get started.

>

> Coercive Persuasion, Schein et al. The other classic work on

Chinese

> thought reform. Years ago when I was researching and checking the

UCLA

> library computers, I found there was one copy in the psychology

library

> and two in the business management library.

>

> Combatting Cult Mind Control, Steve Hassan. Ex-Moonie wrote about

> modern American cults and their techniques.

>

> They will have plenty of references to scientific studies on

opinion

> change.

>

> Ken

>

> P.S. If you start your own Amway, please don't credit me.

I appreciate these links. I have been concerned with cults and

the cult like aspects of various entities for quite a while now, and

some serious study probably is in order. These books appear to fit

the bill. And as you might suspect, I am more interested in these

things from a business/marketing perspective than from a psychology

perspective.

Also, something I wish I could learn from Bill is to write with

his style that is so readable for functionally illiterate people.

It is not so easy actually - he must have been blessed with it!

[Guest guest]

> > you conspiratorial asshole.

> > groundless, baseless

> assertion

> > willfully

> > ignorant

> > your narrow minded

> > You are being willfully perverse

> > > and malicious in distorting and outrightly lying

> > > Yes, I am calling you a malicious liar

> > Steve

> >

> >

> > Steve,

> > Nice words!

> > Are you a little threatened?

> >

> > netty

>

> No Netty that is what Stevo says when he is really happy. He was

> really happy because that asshole Ken is out telling " the lies about

> AA " again and because he doesn't have any proof that any thing Ken

> says is not true. He can't back this argument up with psychobabble

> as well as he normally can so he is happy and excited.

Wrong, Ken was telling lies about SOS... and of course, I'm sure you know

about " psycho " and " babble " whenever you open your mouth, Cool Guy.

Steve

[Guest guest]

> > you conspiratorial asshole.

> > groundless, baseless

> assertion

> > willfully

> > ignorant

> > your narrow minded

> > You are being willfully perverse

> > > and malicious in distorting and outrightly lying

> > > Yes, I am calling you a malicious liar

> > Steve

> >

> >

> > Steve,

> > Nice words!

> > Are you a little threatened?

> >

> > netty

>

> No Netty that is what Stevo says when he is really happy. He was

> really happy because that asshole Ken is out telling " the lies about

> AA " again and because he doesn't have any proof that any thing Ken

> says is not true. He can't back this argument up with psychobabble

> as well as he normally can so he is happy and excited.

Wrong, Ken was telling lies about SOS... and of course, I'm sure you know

about " psycho " and " babble " whenever you open your mouth, Cool Guy.

Steve