Guest guest Posted August 11, 2001 Report Share Posted August 11, 2001 > > > Hi All: > > > > Duaine M here: > > > > In reply to what works best? I think as far as %es go (no > > meeting of any kind) works for more people than, I think all > > of the different kinds of groups combined. ??? > > > > I could be wrong? > > > > It should be up to each of us what we want to use for our > > recovery. > > > > Duaine, > > Right on, but that is not the " recovery movement's " way of looking at > things. Without any hard evidence that their groups work better than > any other group or nothing, they seem to mostly join on the bandwagon > and compete, " It is not right that you coerce people to their group. > You must allow them the choice to be coerced into mine. " > > Ken Hi Duaine, Agree with you. Hi Ken, Cute! Must be hanging around Pete-your turning into a smart-ass too. netty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 11, 2001 Report Share Posted August 11, 2001 > > > Hi All: > > > > Duaine M here: > > > > In reply to what works best? I think as far as %es go (no > > meeting of any kind) works for more people than, I think all > > of the different kinds of groups combined. ??? > > > > I could be wrong? > > > > It should be up to each of us what we want to use for our > > recovery. > > > > Duaine, > > Right on, but that is not the " recovery movement's " way of looking at > things. Without any hard evidence that their groups work better than > any other group or nothing, they seem to mostly join on the bandwagon > and compete, " It is not right that you coerce people to their group. > You must allow them the choice to be coerced into mine. " > > Ken Hi Duaine, Agree with you. Hi Ken, Cute! Must be hanging around Pete-your turning into a smart-ass too. netty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 11, 2001 Report Share Posted August 11, 2001 > > > Hi All: > > > > Duaine M here: > > > > In reply to what works best? I think as far as %es go (no > > meeting of any kind) works for more people than, I think all > > of the different kinds of groups combined. ??? > > > > I could be wrong? > > > > It should be up to each of us what we want to use for our > > recovery. > > > > Duaine, > > Right on, but that is not the " recovery movement's " way of looking at > things. Without any hard evidence that their groups work better than > any other group or nothing, they seem to mostly join on the bandwagon > and compete, " It is not right that you coerce people to their group. > You must allow them the choice to be coerced into mine. " > > Ken Hi Duaine, Agree with you. Hi Ken, Cute! Must be hanging around Pete-your turning into a smart-ass too. netty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 11, 2001 Report Share Posted August 11, 2001 > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: cool guy > Its funny that we > humans would want to do that, but we do so often. And we hide the > truth from others and deceive them on top of it. And people who try > to show you the truth get ran into the ground... and people (Mona?) > flee from the truth... silly people. Thank you Ken! > Duaine M here: > We Humans??? We hide the truth?? Yeah dude, there are billions of people walking around that believe one sort of bullshit or another in place of the truth, and cling to that bullshit instead of discarding and finding the truth (or something closer to it). Like steppers, or Christians, or those guys into voodoo. Bullshit ad infinitum. It is really easy to admit this stuff is bullshit but we humans, yes we humans, as opposed to cows or dogs or eagles, keep on believing bullshit and don't seek truth. I don't really know what the cows dogs and eagles do, but I have experienced and witnessed what I am saying about humans. Life is an onslaught of bullshit, and people, as in we humans, become comfortable believing certain bullshit (which seems to depend entirely on the individual) and do not grow anymore once we settle in, once we (as individuals) are no longer (if ever we were) open minded and curious and questioning. > If you beleve this (Cool Guy) what are you hideing?? Where are you in all this?? Is this list about recovery?? I would realy like to know. I'd really like to know that, too, about where I am at in all this. I keep finding new things that prevent me from seeing truth. For instance today I realized that there was this belief in my head that Bill believed every word he wrote, that he really was crazy (or inspired by God) and thought he was helping people. That was a belief I had, for no particular reason, other than he wrote seemingly genuinely. Well, after reading more and more and thinking, I realized that I now believe he may not have been genuine at all, in fact I tend to believe he was very disingenuous, perhaps even more so than Clinton (or Bush). So, with this new perspective, I have a closer view of the truth, or the possible truth, that was not available with my previous assumption that he " really meant it " . By believing some bullshit, I was unable to see these other possibilities. Notably, that he was in it for the money and it was really a grand way to make some money. That he was really talented at building his little empire and that there is probably a lot to be learned from studying him not for errors about/in AA - I've seen plenty of those, but to find out what made him successful. Now, being able to see that benefits me, more than not being able to see it. I could possibly use some of his strategies (that I was blind to before) to help me make some money or help me get my points across as effectively as he did). Its basically being able to look at something from an angle that wasn't available before because that view was blocked by a pile of bullshit. I was happy to make this discovery, as I was happy to discover that AA was a sham... but not every part of learning that AA was a sham was pleasant... I learned things about myself that I didn't want to know... that were painful, that humbeled me, that made me feel stupid, or like a fool, or a stooge, but I got over the pain and disgrace of those feelings and feel a lot better now knowing more about me (and my world). OK, so yesterday I thought about Bill W as a guy almost as bad as Hitler and I hated him. But today, I must admit I dislike him still, but it is hard to hate someone that I somewhat admire, which I do now, since I no longer think he was merely a crazed brain damaged drinker who accidentally started the phenomenon of XA. OK, similarly, an average stepper believes he has an incurable disease (some bullshit). Because of that bullshit that he believes, he will believe (some more bullshit) he can cure his disease and stay alive by doing the 12 steps. So he does the 12steps. The truth though, from all known data, is that this disease does not exist, and that he does not need to do the 12steps to stay alive. But he chooses to believe bullshit instead of the truth, because... who knows why we humans make this choice.... anyway believing that bullshit ends up causing him to waste lots of his time and energy AKA his life on more bullshit and limits whatever other truth he tries to see. Its kind of like holding your fingers in front of your eyes while you try to read my email - you just can not see it, or at least not as clearly as possible. Wouldn't it be wiser to move those fingers out of your way? Of course, but a lot of times we humans (remember eagles don't have fingers) continue to try to see despite those fingers - or the bullshit that is in the way and holding them back. > If this is a place to hang and get high, I'm out. May be you could be up front and let some one who isn't a (Cool Guy) know where he stands?? I don't know where you stand. Do you go to church? Do you go to meetings? Do you vote? Do you work? Do you pay taxes? Are you in the military? Are you a cop? Are you a government employee? Its endless... I can't know what you believe and what is right or wrong about what you believe... I could make lots of assumptions or guesses if I knew something about you, but that would probably be rude and that is not my job anyway. I mentioned Clinton earlier. I hated Clinton for about 6 or 7 years of his presidency. Then I started to admire him and be inspired by him... and it is kind of hard to hate someone who can inspire you... in fact it is a chore just to hate people, in general, but I digress. Without hating the guy, I am able to look at him more objectivly. Thanks to him I have learned to look at people in general more objectively, with less prejudice and I have learned not to hate or love anyone too passionately, which helps to see what is really there... the truth about them. Anyway, Clinton is a normal man, not extraordinary at all, from Arkansas, one of the shittiest states the US has, and not extremely rich compared to a lot of others, yet somehow he managed to become president. I think I am a fuck up. But I think he is a really big fuck up, and he became president... that gives me hope and reminds me that I could do just about anything... which is a good belief to have. So thanks Bill Clinton, you fucker, for helping to instill that belief in me. As opposed to some asshole preacher who would have me believe I will burn in hell for eternity if I ever miss church or a stepper who would have me believe I will die the next time I take a drink. I'd rather believe something that is true and empowering than some bullshit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 11, 2001 Report Share Posted August 11, 2001 > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: cool guy > Its funny that we > humans would want to do that, but we do so often. And we hide the > truth from others and deceive them on top of it. And people who try > to show you the truth get ran into the ground... and people (Mona?) > flee from the truth... silly people. Thank you Ken! > Duaine M here: > We Humans??? We hide the truth?? Yeah dude, there are billions of people walking around that believe one sort of bullshit or another in place of the truth, and cling to that bullshit instead of discarding and finding the truth (or something closer to it). Like steppers, or Christians, or those guys into voodoo. Bullshit ad infinitum. It is really easy to admit this stuff is bullshit but we humans, yes we humans, as opposed to cows or dogs or eagles, keep on believing bullshit and don't seek truth. I don't really know what the cows dogs and eagles do, but I have experienced and witnessed what I am saying about humans. Life is an onslaught of bullshit, and people, as in we humans, become comfortable believing certain bullshit (which seems to depend entirely on the individual) and do not grow anymore once we settle in, once we (as individuals) are no longer (if ever we were) open minded and curious and questioning. > If you beleve this (Cool Guy) what are you hideing?? Where are you in all this?? Is this list about recovery?? I would realy like to know. I'd really like to know that, too, about where I am at in all this. I keep finding new things that prevent me from seeing truth. For instance today I realized that there was this belief in my head that Bill believed every word he wrote, that he really was crazy (or inspired by God) and thought he was helping people. That was a belief I had, for no particular reason, other than he wrote seemingly genuinely. Well, after reading more and more and thinking, I realized that I now believe he may not have been genuine at all, in fact I tend to believe he was very disingenuous, perhaps even more so than Clinton (or Bush). So, with this new perspective, I have a closer view of the truth, or the possible truth, that was not available with my previous assumption that he " really meant it " . By believing some bullshit, I was unable to see these other possibilities. Notably, that he was in it for the money and it was really a grand way to make some money. That he was really talented at building his little empire and that there is probably a lot to be learned from studying him not for errors about/in AA - I've seen plenty of those, but to find out what made him successful. Now, being able to see that benefits me, more than not being able to see it. I could possibly use some of his strategies (that I was blind to before) to help me make some money or help me get my points across as effectively as he did). Its basically being able to look at something from an angle that wasn't available before because that view was blocked by a pile of bullshit. I was happy to make this discovery, as I was happy to discover that AA was a sham... but not every part of learning that AA was a sham was pleasant... I learned things about myself that I didn't want to know... that were painful, that humbeled me, that made me feel stupid, or like a fool, or a stooge, but I got over the pain and disgrace of those feelings and feel a lot better now knowing more about me (and my world). OK, so yesterday I thought about Bill W as a guy almost as bad as Hitler and I hated him. But today, I must admit I dislike him still, but it is hard to hate someone that I somewhat admire, which I do now, since I no longer think he was merely a crazed brain damaged drinker who accidentally started the phenomenon of XA. OK, similarly, an average stepper believes he has an incurable disease (some bullshit). Because of that bullshit that he believes, he will believe (some more bullshit) he can cure his disease and stay alive by doing the 12 steps. So he does the 12steps. The truth though, from all known data, is that this disease does not exist, and that he does not need to do the 12steps to stay alive. But he chooses to believe bullshit instead of the truth, because... who knows why we humans make this choice.... anyway believing that bullshit ends up causing him to waste lots of his time and energy AKA his life on more bullshit and limits whatever other truth he tries to see. Its kind of like holding your fingers in front of your eyes while you try to read my email - you just can not see it, or at least not as clearly as possible. Wouldn't it be wiser to move those fingers out of your way? Of course, but a lot of times we humans (remember eagles don't have fingers) continue to try to see despite those fingers - or the bullshit that is in the way and holding them back. > If this is a place to hang and get high, I'm out. May be you could be up front and let some one who isn't a (Cool Guy) know where he stands?? I don't know where you stand. Do you go to church? Do you go to meetings? Do you vote? Do you work? Do you pay taxes? Are you in the military? Are you a cop? Are you a government employee? Its endless... I can't know what you believe and what is right or wrong about what you believe... I could make lots of assumptions or guesses if I knew something about you, but that would probably be rude and that is not my job anyway. I mentioned Clinton earlier. I hated Clinton for about 6 or 7 years of his presidency. Then I started to admire him and be inspired by him... and it is kind of hard to hate someone who can inspire you... in fact it is a chore just to hate people, in general, but I digress. Without hating the guy, I am able to look at him more objectivly. Thanks to him I have learned to look at people in general more objectively, with less prejudice and I have learned not to hate or love anyone too passionately, which helps to see what is really there... the truth about them. Anyway, Clinton is a normal man, not extraordinary at all, from Arkansas, one of the shittiest states the US has, and not extremely rich compared to a lot of others, yet somehow he managed to become president. I think I am a fuck up. But I think he is a really big fuck up, and he became president... that gives me hope and reminds me that I could do just about anything... which is a good belief to have. So thanks Bill Clinton, you fucker, for helping to instill that belief in me. As opposed to some asshole preacher who would have me believe I will burn in hell for eternity if I ever miss church or a stepper who would have me believe I will die the next time I take a drink. I'd rather believe something that is true and empowering than some bullshit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 11, 2001 Report Share Posted August 11, 2001 > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: cool guy > Its funny that we > humans would want to do that, but we do so often. And we hide the > truth from others and deceive them on top of it. And people who try > to show you the truth get ran into the ground... and people (Mona?) > flee from the truth... silly people. Thank you Ken! > Duaine M here: > We Humans??? We hide the truth?? Yeah dude, there are billions of people walking around that believe one sort of bullshit or another in place of the truth, and cling to that bullshit instead of discarding and finding the truth (or something closer to it). Like steppers, or Christians, or those guys into voodoo. Bullshit ad infinitum. It is really easy to admit this stuff is bullshit but we humans, yes we humans, as opposed to cows or dogs or eagles, keep on believing bullshit and don't seek truth. I don't really know what the cows dogs and eagles do, but I have experienced and witnessed what I am saying about humans. Life is an onslaught of bullshit, and people, as in we humans, become comfortable believing certain bullshit (which seems to depend entirely on the individual) and do not grow anymore once we settle in, once we (as individuals) are no longer (if ever we were) open minded and curious and questioning. > If you beleve this (Cool Guy) what are you hideing?? Where are you in all this?? Is this list about recovery?? I would realy like to know. I'd really like to know that, too, about where I am at in all this. I keep finding new things that prevent me from seeing truth. For instance today I realized that there was this belief in my head that Bill believed every word he wrote, that he really was crazy (or inspired by God) and thought he was helping people. That was a belief I had, for no particular reason, other than he wrote seemingly genuinely. Well, after reading more and more and thinking, I realized that I now believe he may not have been genuine at all, in fact I tend to believe he was very disingenuous, perhaps even more so than Clinton (or Bush). So, with this new perspective, I have a closer view of the truth, or the possible truth, that was not available with my previous assumption that he " really meant it " . By believing some bullshit, I was unable to see these other possibilities. Notably, that he was in it for the money and it was really a grand way to make some money. That he was really talented at building his little empire and that there is probably a lot to be learned from studying him not for errors about/in AA - I've seen plenty of those, but to find out what made him successful. Now, being able to see that benefits me, more than not being able to see it. I could possibly use some of his strategies (that I was blind to before) to help me make some money or help me get my points across as effectively as he did). Its basically being able to look at something from an angle that wasn't available before because that view was blocked by a pile of bullshit. I was happy to make this discovery, as I was happy to discover that AA was a sham... but not every part of learning that AA was a sham was pleasant... I learned things about myself that I didn't want to know... that were painful, that humbeled me, that made me feel stupid, or like a fool, or a stooge, but I got over the pain and disgrace of those feelings and feel a lot better now knowing more about me (and my world). OK, so yesterday I thought about Bill W as a guy almost as bad as Hitler and I hated him. But today, I must admit I dislike him still, but it is hard to hate someone that I somewhat admire, which I do now, since I no longer think he was merely a crazed brain damaged drinker who accidentally started the phenomenon of XA. OK, similarly, an average stepper believes he has an incurable disease (some bullshit). Because of that bullshit that he believes, he will believe (some more bullshit) he can cure his disease and stay alive by doing the 12 steps. So he does the 12steps. The truth though, from all known data, is that this disease does not exist, and that he does not need to do the 12steps to stay alive. But he chooses to believe bullshit instead of the truth, because... who knows why we humans make this choice.... anyway believing that bullshit ends up causing him to waste lots of his time and energy AKA his life on more bullshit and limits whatever other truth he tries to see. Its kind of like holding your fingers in front of your eyes while you try to read my email - you just can not see it, or at least not as clearly as possible. Wouldn't it be wiser to move those fingers out of your way? Of course, but a lot of times we humans (remember eagles don't have fingers) continue to try to see despite those fingers - or the bullshit that is in the way and holding them back. > If this is a place to hang and get high, I'm out. May be you could be up front and let some one who isn't a (Cool Guy) know where he stands?? I don't know where you stand. Do you go to church? Do you go to meetings? Do you vote? Do you work? Do you pay taxes? Are you in the military? Are you a cop? Are you a government employee? Its endless... I can't know what you believe and what is right or wrong about what you believe... I could make lots of assumptions or guesses if I knew something about you, but that would probably be rude and that is not my job anyway. I mentioned Clinton earlier. I hated Clinton for about 6 or 7 years of his presidency. Then I started to admire him and be inspired by him... and it is kind of hard to hate someone who can inspire you... in fact it is a chore just to hate people, in general, but I digress. Without hating the guy, I am able to look at him more objectivly. Thanks to him I have learned to look at people in general more objectively, with less prejudice and I have learned not to hate or love anyone too passionately, which helps to see what is really there... the truth about them. Anyway, Clinton is a normal man, not extraordinary at all, from Arkansas, one of the shittiest states the US has, and not extremely rich compared to a lot of others, yet somehow he managed to become president. I think I am a fuck up. But I think he is a really big fuck up, and he became president... that gives me hope and reminds me that I could do just about anything... which is a good belief to have. So thanks Bill Clinton, you fucker, for helping to instill that belief in me. As opposed to some asshole preacher who would have me believe I will burn in hell for eternity if I ever miss church or a stepper who would have me believe I will die the next time I take a drink. I'd rather believe something that is true and empowering than some bullshit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 11, 2001 Report Share Posted August 11, 2001 cool guy wrote: > Well what have we here... two people I generally agree with on most > things having a very exciting argument! Cool. > > > > Who cares? You have a right to believe what you want and say what > you > > want. I'm not the one who defends coercion to ideological (as > opposed > > to religious) groups. > > Oddly enough I am siding with you here, Ken. I disagree with > coercion at just about every level. Especially as a punishment for > a crime. I think " giving " something to someone who has commited a > crime is a silly thing to do. I think a violator of law should be > punished in traditional ways... either jail or fine, until someone > thinks of something better. If they choose, after enduring their > punishment, to do something that will help them better themselves > then that is wonderful - but it should remain their own choice and > their own responsibility. Not the state's. Certainly there are > plenty of " charities " (far too many, IMO) that are willing to " lend > a hand " (AA comes to mind) to people who are struggling or are > troubled. I do not agree with mixing charity and state, which is > done to a ridiculous extent already. And coercing (and funding) XA > (or other treatment/program/group/etc) is a form of charity (though > an unwanted one in most cases). In order to " give " any of this type > of " help " the state has to take from someone else. I don't like the > thought of taking from people who obey laws to give to those who > don't. This is not too hard to comprehend, is it? > Coolguy, My first line was to be: This doesn't have to stay boring. We can disagree some starting now. but it's getting late and I've got to run. I'm sure we can disagree in the near future. Ken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 11, 2001 Report Share Posted August 11, 2001 cool guy wrote: > Well what have we here... two people I generally agree with on most > things having a very exciting argument! Cool. > > > > Who cares? You have a right to believe what you want and say what > you > > want. I'm not the one who defends coercion to ideological (as > opposed > > to religious) groups. > > Oddly enough I am siding with you here, Ken. I disagree with > coercion at just about every level. Especially as a punishment for > a crime. I think " giving " something to someone who has commited a > crime is a silly thing to do. I think a violator of law should be > punished in traditional ways... either jail or fine, until someone > thinks of something better. If they choose, after enduring their > punishment, to do something that will help them better themselves > then that is wonderful - but it should remain their own choice and > their own responsibility. Not the state's. Certainly there are > plenty of " charities " (far too many, IMO) that are willing to " lend > a hand " (AA comes to mind) to people who are struggling or are > troubled. I do not agree with mixing charity and state, which is > done to a ridiculous extent already. And coercing (and funding) XA > (or other treatment/program/group/etc) is a form of charity (though > an unwanted one in most cases). In order to " give " any of this type > of " help " the state has to take from someone else. I don't like the > thought of taking from people who obey laws to give to those who > don't. This is not too hard to comprehend, is it? > Coolguy, My first line was to be: This doesn't have to stay boring. We can disagree some starting now. but it's getting late and I've got to run. I'm sure we can disagree in the near future. Ken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 11, 2001 Report Share Posted August 11, 2001 caenemy@... wrote: > > > > > > Hi All: > > > > > > Duaine M here: > > > > > > In reply to what works best? I think as far as %es go (no > > > meeting of any kind) works for more people than, I think all > > > of the different kinds of groups combined. ??? > > > > > > I could be wrong? > > > > > > It should be up to each of us what we want to use for our > > > recovery. > > > > > > > Duaine, > > > > Right on, but that is not the " recovery movement's " way of looking > at > > things. Without any hard evidence that their groups work better > than > > any other group or nothing, they seem to mostly join on the > bandwagon > > and compete, " It is not right that you coerce people to their group. > > You must allow them the choice to be coerced into mine. " > > > > Ken > > Hi Duaine, > Agree with you. > > Hi Ken, > Cute! Must be hanging around Pete-your turning into > a smart-ass too. > netty > Hi Netty, No, not Pete. I've been a smart-ass for a long, long time. However, there is a great deal of competition between SOS, LSR and SMART to be chosen by various government agencies as alternative groups to coerce people to. Ken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 11, 2001 Report Share Posted August 11, 2001 caenemy@... wrote: > > > > > > Hi All: > > > > > > Duaine M here: > > > > > > In reply to what works best? I think as far as %es go (no > > > meeting of any kind) works for more people than, I think all > > > of the different kinds of groups combined. ??? > > > > > > I could be wrong? > > > > > > It should be up to each of us what we want to use for our > > > recovery. > > > > > > > Duaine, > > > > Right on, but that is not the " recovery movement's " way of looking > at > > things. Without any hard evidence that their groups work better > than > > any other group or nothing, they seem to mostly join on the > bandwagon > > and compete, " It is not right that you coerce people to their group. > > You must allow them the choice to be coerced into mine. " > > > > Ken > > Hi Duaine, > Agree with you. > > Hi Ken, > Cute! Must be hanging around Pete-your turning into > a smart-ass too. > netty > Hi Netty, No, not Pete. I've been a smart-ass for a long, long time. However, there is a great deal of competition between SOS, LSR and SMART to be chosen by various government agencies as alternative groups to coerce people to. Ken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 11, 2001 Report Share Posted August 11, 2001 Coolguy wrote: > I could possibly use some of > his strategies (that I was blind to before) to help me make some > money or help me get my points across as effectively as he did). > Probably the best references for learning his strategies are the following: Soul Surgery, 1918, Walter is an instruction manual for converting people (e.g. ) to the Oxford Group. Though Reform and the Psychology of Totalism, RJ Lifton. One of two classic works on brainwashing in China. Has been used by modern American cult leaders to get started. Coercive Persuasion, Schein et al. The other classic work on Chinese thought reform. Years ago when I was researching and checking the UCLA library computers, I found there was one copy in the psychology library and two in the business management library. Combatting Cult Mind Control, Steve Hassan. Ex-Moonie wrote about modern American cults and their techniques. They will have plenty of references to scientific studies on opinion change. Ken P.S. If you start your own Amway, please don't credit me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 11, 2001 Report Share Posted August 11, 2001 Coolguy wrote: > I could possibly use some of > his strategies (that I was blind to before) to help me make some > money or help me get my points across as effectively as he did). > Probably the best references for learning his strategies are the following: Soul Surgery, 1918, Walter is an instruction manual for converting people (e.g. ) to the Oxford Group. Though Reform and the Psychology of Totalism, RJ Lifton. One of two classic works on brainwashing in China. Has been used by modern American cult leaders to get started. Coercive Persuasion, Schein et al. The other classic work on Chinese thought reform. Years ago when I was researching and checking the UCLA library computers, I found there was one copy in the psychology library and two in the business management library. Combatting Cult Mind Control, Steve Hassan. Ex-Moonie wrote about modern American cults and their techniques. They will have plenty of references to scientific studies on opinion change. Ken P.S. If you start your own Amway, please don't credit me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 11, 2001 Report Share Posted August 11, 2001 Coolguy wrote: > I could possibly use some of > his strategies (that I was blind to before) to help me make some > money or help me get my points across as effectively as he did). > Probably the best references for learning his strategies are the following: Soul Surgery, 1918, Walter is an instruction manual for converting people (e.g. ) to the Oxford Group. Though Reform and the Psychology of Totalism, RJ Lifton. One of two classic works on brainwashing in China. Has been used by modern American cult leaders to get started. Coercive Persuasion, Schein et al. The other classic work on Chinese thought reform. Years ago when I was researching and checking the UCLA library computers, I found there was one copy in the psychology library and two in the business management library. Combatting Cult Mind Control, Steve Hassan. Ex-Moonie wrote about modern American cults and their techniques. They will have plenty of references to scientific studies on opinion change. Ken P.S. If you start your own Amway, please don't credit me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 11, 2001 Report Share Posted August 11, 2001 > > > P.S. To above. > > > > > > I don't doubt the sincerity of those in LSR/SOS who had a coffee > > pot and > > > resentment and started a new meeting. I do question how far > > removed > > > they are from the meetings they left even if they've made some > > changes > > > in language, completely wiping out the religious and keeping the AA > > > science and alcohol as Devil Drink. I can understand the > > attraction of > > > genetics and " physiological differences. " It confers innocence on > > > repeated bad behavior while drunk. Just stop drinking, which one > > wants > > > to do anyway, and one not only has that benefit, but all bad > > behavior > > > can be ascribed to " it, " the disease, Devil Drink, genes, however > > it is > > > termed. Perhaps that is where much of the need to proseletyze > > comes > > > from. > > > > It is just easier to believe something if you can convince > > someone else of it. So these groups proselytize, since they are not > > based on things that can be proven, but on things that must be > > believed. Anything that requires belief will be proselytized, to > > make it more believable to the proselytes and the originator of the > > belief (unless he is knowingly deceiving them only for his own gain, > > in which case the proselytes proselytize to help confirm to > > themselves their own beliefs, while the originator is pushing his > > own agenda for power/money/etc). > > They believe alcohol is Devil Drink (and a million other > > assumptions) because it suits them and since they have a false > > belief, they must convince others of it to continue believing it. > > Or to keep up the game, playing the charade, maintaining their > > reality. Ultimately a way to avoid the truth. Its funny that we > > humans would want to do that, but we do so often. And we hide the > > truth from others and deceive them on top of it. And people who try > > to show you the truth get ran into the ground... and people (Mona?) > > flee from the truth... silly people. Thank you Ken! > > > > Coolguy, > > I think you are right on here. The only thing, is that in many ways I'm > sympathetic to their position. I was once a " true believer " in AA and it > took a lot of time and a lot of research to question and change beliefs that > I had picked up in the groups and/or in the media without ever questioning > them. Thanks Ken. I try to be wholly sympathetic to " them " myself. I was once a true believer in AA and in other things that I've since found out were Wrong. It took a lot of time and courage, thought and energy and... the help of others, to see these things for what they really were (not that I do completely now or ever could). Growth is painful, and I believe I have a lot more sympathy and compassion for other human beings than I did when I was younger, because I have gone through these things and they are either going through similar things or are stuck in things that hold them back, or have been in the past. Realising just how hard life is for me, and that it is probably just as hard or harder for most others makes it a little easier to empathise and not judge. > The step groups, as other groups that are commonly referred to as cults or > destructive cults generally go after people when they are at a trouble point > in their lives. After the group influences have been adopted, it is very > difficult, often very painful, to challenge the very beliefs which were used > as manipulation and as escape from an intolerable situation to start with. Exactly, painful and scary. From the movie, Dune... " Fear is the mind killer. " Paralyzes it. Makes you not question, and not want to know the answers. And makes you confused, and so do the huge helpings of BS that AA fed you. And makes you not trust (which is good in many cases). So it is not easy, by any means, with all the pain and fear to deal with, but I think eventually the (unpleasantness of) fear is what causes action, after so much inaction. And I know that most cults operate basically the same way (and I count damn near all of the world's religions in this same category). They either proselityse to the weak, infirm, troubled or young. So I seek your opinions on some somewhat related ideas. How can you teach people not to fall for it? Is it something one must learn for one's self? I think parents have to teach their children how to decipher truth from untruth, to distiguish which beliefs they hold and which are healthy, and unfortunately not everyone is very good at that by the time they have kids. Having a parent proselytise you (before you can even do anything else, practically) makes it even harder than " undoing " the beliefs learned in AA from a bunch of people who's last names you don't even know, I would think... and if the parent is fooled, the offsrping will be, too? > Moreover, so much is adopted unawares, where the influences are so subtle not > only are the influences not noticed but but the adoption of ideas as the > truth one bases one life on is done without serious questioning. Yes, this is true about AA and just about everything else that gives us the beliefs we run our lives on. It can be hard to change beliefs or to even know what you believe, and it can be hard to trust yourself after you've screwed up. And regarding " the adoption of ideas " you mentioned... it is amazing how we tend to adopt (so many bad) ideas that prevent other ideas from even being considered. It is not > surprising that they come out of their experience thinking they got away scot > free because there were sticking points on some ideas. What do you mean? > Might sound trivial and I suppose it is, but years after I left AA, my e-mail > name was Ken R. and my address book is _still_ organized by first name rather > than the pre-AA last name. Well I still retain some anonymity ;-) And I keep track of people in the organiser by first name too. I wonder how many people do that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 11, 2001 Report Share Posted August 11, 2001 > > > P.S. To above. > > > > > > I don't doubt the sincerity of those in LSR/SOS who had a coffee > > pot and > > > resentment and started a new meeting. I do question how far > > removed > > > they are from the meetings they left even if they've made some > > changes > > > in language, completely wiping out the religious and keeping the AA > > > science and alcohol as Devil Drink. I can understand the > > attraction of > > > genetics and " physiological differences. " It confers innocence on > > > repeated bad behavior while drunk. Just stop drinking, which one > > wants > > > to do anyway, and one not only has that benefit, but all bad > > behavior > > > can be ascribed to " it, " the disease, Devil Drink, genes, however > > it is > > > termed. Perhaps that is where much of the need to proseletyze > > comes > > > from. > > > > It is just easier to believe something if you can convince > > someone else of it. So these groups proselytize, since they are not > > based on things that can be proven, but on things that must be > > believed. Anything that requires belief will be proselytized, to > > make it more believable to the proselytes and the originator of the > > belief (unless he is knowingly deceiving them only for his own gain, > > in which case the proselytes proselytize to help confirm to > > themselves their own beliefs, while the originator is pushing his > > own agenda for power/money/etc). > > They believe alcohol is Devil Drink (and a million other > > assumptions) because it suits them and since they have a false > > belief, they must convince others of it to continue believing it. > > Or to keep up the game, playing the charade, maintaining their > > reality. Ultimately a way to avoid the truth. Its funny that we > > humans would want to do that, but we do so often. And we hide the > > truth from others and deceive them on top of it. And people who try > > to show you the truth get ran into the ground... and people (Mona?) > > flee from the truth... silly people. Thank you Ken! > > > > Coolguy, > > I think you are right on here. The only thing, is that in many ways I'm > sympathetic to their position. I was once a " true believer " in AA and it > took a lot of time and a lot of research to question and change beliefs that > I had picked up in the groups and/or in the media without ever questioning > them. Thanks Ken. I try to be wholly sympathetic to " them " myself. I was once a true believer in AA and in other things that I've since found out were Wrong. It took a lot of time and courage, thought and energy and... the help of others, to see these things for what they really were (not that I do completely now or ever could). Growth is painful, and I believe I have a lot more sympathy and compassion for other human beings than I did when I was younger, because I have gone through these things and they are either going through similar things or are stuck in things that hold them back, or have been in the past. Realising just how hard life is for me, and that it is probably just as hard or harder for most others makes it a little easier to empathise and not judge. > The step groups, as other groups that are commonly referred to as cults or > destructive cults generally go after people when they are at a trouble point > in their lives. After the group influences have been adopted, it is very > difficult, often very painful, to challenge the very beliefs which were used > as manipulation and as escape from an intolerable situation to start with. Exactly, painful and scary. From the movie, Dune... " Fear is the mind killer. " Paralyzes it. Makes you not question, and not want to know the answers. And makes you confused, and so do the huge helpings of BS that AA fed you. And makes you not trust (which is good in many cases). So it is not easy, by any means, with all the pain and fear to deal with, but I think eventually the (unpleasantness of) fear is what causes action, after so much inaction. And I know that most cults operate basically the same way (and I count damn near all of the world's religions in this same category). They either proselityse to the weak, infirm, troubled or young. So I seek your opinions on some somewhat related ideas. How can you teach people not to fall for it? Is it something one must learn for one's self? I think parents have to teach their children how to decipher truth from untruth, to distiguish which beliefs they hold and which are healthy, and unfortunately not everyone is very good at that by the time they have kids. Having a parent proselytise you (before you can even do anything else, practically) makes it even harder than " undoing " the beliefs learned in AA from a bunch of people who's last names you don't even know, I would think... and if the parent is fooled, the offsrping will be, too? > Moreover, so much is adopted unawares, where the influences are so subtle not > only are the influences not noticed but but the adoption of ideas as the > truth one bases one life on is done without serious questioning. Yes, this is true about AA and just about everything else that gives us the beliefs we run our lives on. It can be hard to change beliefs or to even know what you believe, and it can be hard to trust yourself after you've screwed up. And regarding " the adoption of ideas " you mentioned... it is amazing how we tend to adopt (so many bad) ideas that prevent other ideas from even being considered. It is not > surprising that they come out of their experience thinking they got away scot > free because there were sticking points on some ideas. What do you mean? > Might sound trivial and I suppose it is, but years after I left AA, my e-mail > name was Ken R. and my address book is _still_ organized by first name rather > than the pre-AA last name. Well I still retain some anonymity ;-) And I keep track of people in the organiser by first name too. I wonder how many people do that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 11, 2001 Report Share Posted August 11, 2001 > > > you conspiratorial asshole. > groundless, baseless assertion > willfully > ignorant > your narrow minded > You are being willfully perverse > > and malicious in distorting and outrightly lying > > Yes, I am calling you a malicious liar > Steve > > > Steve, > Nice words! > Are you a little threatened? > > netty No Netty that is what Stevo says when he is really happy. He was really happy because that asshole Ken is out telling " the lies about AA " again and because he doesn't have any proof that any thing Ken says is not true. He can't back this argument up with psychobabble as well as he normally can so he is happy and excited. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 11, 2001 Report Share Posted August 11, 2001 > > > you conspiratorial asshole. > groundless, baseless assertion > willfully > ignorant > your narrow minded > You are being willfully perverse > > and malicious in distorting and outrightly lying > > Yes, I am calling you a malicious liar > Steve > > > Steve, > Nice words! > Are you a little threatened? > > netty No Netty that is what Stevo says when he is really happy. He was really happy because that asshole Ken is out telling " the lies about AA " again and because he doesn't have any proof that any thing Ken says is not true. He can't back this argument up with psychobabble as well as he normally can so he is happy and excited. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 11, 2001 Report Share Posted August 11, 2001 > > > you conspiratorial asshole. > groundless, baseless assertion > willfully > ignorant > your narrow minded > You are being willfully perverse > > and malicious in distorting and outrightly lying > > Yes, I am calling you a malicious liar > Steve > > > Steve, > Nice words! > Are you a little threatened? > > netty No Netty that is what Stevo says when he is really happy. He was really happy because that asshole Ken is out telling " the lies about AA " again and because he doesn't have any proof that any thing Ken says is not true. He can't back this argument up with psychobabble as well as he normally can so he is happy and excited. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 11, 2001 Report Share Posted August 11, 2001 'Bye, Mona....I'm trying to leave, too. Well, not quite leave, actually. I was going to switch to web-only so that I don't get all these e-mails in my computer. This is not my only account, and not my only e-list. My poor computer is overflowing as I devote my time to this list. I want to switch to web-only so that I can check in from time to time and only look at certain posts, but, well, I guess I'm powerless over this list, and my computer has become unmanageable. Maybe tomorrow I can resist looking at the posts and go to Yahoo and switch.... Cheers, nz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 11, 2001 Report Share Posted August 11, 2001 'Bye, Mona....I'm trying to leave, too. Well, not quite leave, actually. I was going to switch to web-only so that I don't get all these e-mails in my computer. This is not my only account, and not my only e-list. My poor computer is overflowing as I devote my time to this list. I want to switch to web-only so that I can check in from time to time and only look at certain posts, but, well, I guess I'm powerless over this list, and my computer has become unmanageable. Maybe tomorrow I can resist looking at the posts and go to Yahoo and switch.... Cheers, nz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 11, 2001 Report Share Posted August 11, 2001 'Bye, Mona....I'm trying to leave, too. Well, not quite leave, actually. I was going to switch to web-only so that I don't get all these e-mails in my computer. This is not my only account, and not my only e-list. My poor computer is overflowing as I devote my time to this list. I want to switch to web-only so that I can check in from time to time and only look at certain posts, but, well, I guess I'm powerless over this list, and my computer has become unmanageable. Maybe tomorrow I can resist looking at the posts and go to Yahoo and switch.... Cheers, nz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 11, 2001 Report Share Posted August 11, 2001 > > > I could possibly use some of > > his strategies (that I was blind to before) to help me make some > > money or help me get my points across as effectively as he did). > > > > Probably the best references for learning his strategies are the > following: > > Soul Surgery, 1918, Walter is an instruction manual for converting > people (e.g. ) to the Oxford Group. > > Though Reform and the Psychology of Totalism, RJ Lifton. One of two > classic works on brainwashing in China. Has been used by modern > American cult leaders to get started. > > Coercive Persuasion, Schein et al. The other classic work on Chinese > thought reform. Years ago when I was researching and checking the UCLA > library computers, I found there was one copy in the psychology library > and two in the business management library. > > Combatting Cult Mind Control, Steve Hassan. Ex-Moonie wrote about > modern American cults and their techniques. > > They will have plenty of references to scientific studies on opinion > change. > > Ken > > P.S. If you start your own Amway, please don't credit me. I appreciate these links. I have been concerned with cults and the cult like aspects of various entities for quite a while now, and some serious study probably is in order. These books appear to fit the bill. And as you might suspect, I am more interested in these things from a business/marketing perspective than from a psychology perspective. Also, something I wish I could learn from Bill is to write with his style that is so readable for functionally illiterate people. It is not so easy actually - he must have been blessed with it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 11, 2001 Report Share Posted August 11, 2001 > > > I could possibly use some of > > his strategies (that I was blind to before) to help me make some > > money or help me get my points across as effectively as he did). > > > > Probably the best references for learning his strategies are the > following: > > Soul Surgery, 1918, Walter is an instruction manual for converting > people (e.g. ) to the Oxford Group. > > Though Reform and the Psychology of Totalism, RJ Lifton. One of two > classic works on brainwashing in China. Has been used by modern > American cult leaders to get started. > > Coercive Persuasion, Schein et al. The other classic work on Chinese > thought reform. Years ago when I was researching and checking the UCLA > library computers, I found there was one copy in the psychology library > and two in the business management library. > > Combatting Cult Mind Control, Steve Hassan. Ex-Moonie wrote about > modern American cults and their techniques. > > They will have plenty of references to scientific studies on opinion > change. > > Ken > > P.S. If you start your own Amway, please don't credit me. I appreciate these links. I have been concerned with cults and the cult like aspects of various entities for quite a while now, and some serious study probably is in order. These books appear to fit the bill. And as you might suspect, I am more interested in these things from a business/marketing perspective than from a psychology perspective. Also, something I wish I could learn from Bill is to write with his style that is so readable for functionally illiterate people. It is not so easy actually - he must have been blessed with it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 11, 2001 Report Share Posted August 11, 2001 > > you conspiratorial asshole. > > groundless, baseless > assertion > > willfully > > ignorant > > your narrow minded > > You are being willfully perverse > > > and malicious in distorting and outrightly lying > > > Yes, I am calling you a malicious liar > > Steve > > > > > > Steve, > > Nice words! > > Are you a little threatened? > > > > netty > > No Netty that is what Stevo says when he is really happy. He was > really happy because that asshole Ken is out telling " the lies about > AA " again and because he doesn't have any proof that any thing Ken > says is not true. He can't back this argument up with psychobabble > as well as he normally can so he is happy and excited. Wrong, Ken was telling lies about SOS... and of course, I'm sure you know about " psycho " and " babble " whenever you open your mouth, Cool Guy. Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 11, 2001 Report Share Posted August 11, 2001 > > you conspiratorial asshole. > > groundless, baseless > assertion > > willfully > > ignorant > > your narrow minded > > You are being willfully perverse > > > and malicious in distorting and outrightly lying > > > Yes, I am calling you a malicious liar > > Steve > > > > > > Steve, > > Nice words! > > Are you a little threatened? > > > > netty > > No Netty that is what Stevo says when he is really happy. He was > really happy because that asshole Ken is out telling " the lies about > AA " again and because he doesn't have any proof that any thing Ken > says is not true. He can't back this argument up with psychobabble > as well as he normally can so he is happy and excited. Wrong, Ken was telling lies about SOS... and of course, I'm sure you know about " psycho " and " babble " whenever you open your mouth, Cool Guy. Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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