Good Bye

August 11, 2001

Ken: Thanks for creating the list. There are a few questions I would like

to throw your way, via email, before I drop out of sight completely. BTW

From coercion to the way one tried to weasel out of what's plainly intended

by insisting the exact words were never said, done more than once no less,

to the genetics arguments and simply the nasty way they post when it's clear

someone isn't having it. It's XA deja vu all over again. It's not just

them though when I read Decarlo's account of what happened on the MM

board and thought about the above I came to realize just how destructive

recovery by group, any group, actually is/can be/most likely will be if one

hangs around long enough. AA may be the worst but at the moment LSR and MM

don't seem much better to me.

Apple: We both know it's not an anti AA site. It's an " anti-nonsense/crimes

that go on in and around AA " site. Someday who knows maybe they will.

Groupers, as a group, say some of the most hateful hurtful things I've ever

seen. They may not like what you have to say Apple but they're damn sure

listening. You've made a serious impact. I find it's helpful to try and

keep in mind it's fear talking. Thanx.

Ben: I think if I ever decide to write a book about life inside AA I would

consult you first of all. Your knowledge and memory of it are simply

amazing. I think what I respected most about you Ben was in the way you

related what you had to say. Like the time you talked about how you found a

therapist.

CG: It's a process brother and you've got one of the better starts I've

ever seen. Live it.

Dave Marcoot: Keep the quotes coming. They're amazing in their ability to

cut through the bs. You had me rolling when you suggested I bring a copy of

" Combating Mind Control Cults " to AA meetings to avoid the insanity I was

hearing. Thanks.

Joe: It's like with Ben. You're right btw there isn't one stinking aspect

of AA that's wholly beneficial.

Judith Stillwater: Be You. I know you can because you are. You have been

great and I'll continue to miss you.

Kay: Sorry to hear about your medical stuff. Wishing you the best. Though

I'm ashamed to admit it you've been right more often than not when you

nicely told me to shut the hell up. PS I really miss the snoozing kitty.

:0)

: The spawnsor is sumpthin else. Thanks for that. When Pete's

screwing up you hold his feet to the fire no matter how loud he screams.

Trust he can scream with the best of them so be forewarned.

Bjorn: I included Scandinavia in with Europe a fact which no doubt

confirmed some suspicions you had about American's and geography. Can you

tell me where Minnesota is after you point out Indiana, Kentucky, Louisiana,

Michigan, Ohio, New Mexico, Nevada, etc and their capitals? :0) Don't worry

neither can Pete. ;0) And even though it confirms some things I've always

thought about Scandinavians and Europeons I won't hold it against either of

you. :0) Look at it this way. At least I said good bye to you before

Pete. ;0) Good luck over there and I'll forward a copy of the VA report as

soon as I can get my hands on it. Promise! PS Dogs not cats.

Pete: Your sponsor was a number one class A freaking jerk. Your crazy

neighbor is just that. You're better than your environment and Good luck

God bless. Oh Ya give Joe back his book. He's been asking for it for quite a

while now. I'd like to keep my account intact so that you're not later

plagued with a clone.

: Ever thought about looking into Cable Access TV? Dupe the

broadcasts forward them to us across the country and we can negotiate the

terms of airing them through our local cable co's. I'm still avail to make

the radio broadcasts available online when/if you get the audio tapes. You

know where to reach me.

Rita: You're one tough chick. (sorry) I like that. When you've kicked them

to the ground there's this one move I learned in the Marine Corps where

you..... Ooops ..... never mind. Just keep it up Rita.

Warner: I know steppers constantly second guessing your motives gets

to be a pain in the ass. Please don't let that keep you from putting a foot

up their a.... every once in awhile.

Tommy: You know where I am if you need me on the military boards.

List: Good bye it's been mostly fun while it lasted. I don't think I can

convey to you all the depth of emotion I feel for you right now at this

moment. So I won't even try. Just know that hitting the send key is

probably one of the hardest things I've found myself doing in quite some

time.

Oh hell I'm just delaying now.

Bye

August 11, 2001

The discouragement of criticism has come from both you and Mona.

That is another of your lies, Ken Ragge. What I have objected to are your blatant falsehoods and hysterical accusations that LSR and SOS are exactly like AA without god. Since I myself disagree with certain aspects of LSR, and am always open to serious and constructive discussion of real or perceived deficiencies in it, you are again revealed as a liar.

You have greatly disappointed me. You are not what your reputation led me to expect. You appear to be mindless and neurotic in your hatred of XA, to the point where anyone who shares anything at all in common with it, or who stops short of unbridled castigation, is the enemy, and no better than a Stepper.

Well, I didn't accept purge mentalities in XA, and I equally reject it from you. I adhere to no one's orthodoxy, and that includes your fevered brand.

As soon as I send this I'm unsubscribing. Life is too short for anything as unproductive as your (and it really is your) list.

Anyone wishing to contact me in the future will be able to do so through unhooked.com. I am moving to Dallas this coming Thursday, and as soon as I have another email address it will be linked to my name on the online meeting schedule there.

Some of you I have greatly enjoyed, and hope to hear from again.

--Mona--

August 11, 2001

The discouragement of criticism has come from both you and Mona.

That is another of your lies, Ken Ragge. What I have objected to are your blatant falsehoods and hysterical accusations that LSR and SOS are exactly like AA without god. Since I myself disagree with certain aspects of LSR, and am always open to serious and constructive discussion of real or perceived deficiencies in it, you are again revealed as a liar.

You have greatly disappointed me. You are not what your reputation led me to expect. You appear to be mindless and neurotic in your hatred of XA, to the point where anyone who shares anything at all in common with it, or who stops short of unbridled castigation, is the enemy, and no better than a Stepper.

Well, I didn't accept purge mentalities in XA, and I equally reject it from you. I adhere to no one's orthodoxy, and that includes your fevered brand.

As soon as I send this I'm unsubscribing. Life is too short for anything as unproductive as your (and it really is your) list.

Anyone wishing to contact me in the future will be able to do so through unhooked.com. I am moving to Dallas this coming Thursday, and as soon as I have another email address it will be linked to my name on the online meeting schedule there.

Some of you I have greatly enjoyed, and hope to hear from again.

--Mona--

August 11, 2001

The discouragement of criticism has come from both you and Mona.

That is another of your lies, Ken Ragge. What I have objected to are your blatant falsehoods and hysterical accusations that LSR and SOS are exactly like AA without god. Since I myself disagree with certain aspects of LSR, and am always open to serious and constructive discussion of real or perceived deficiencies in it, you are again revealed as a liar.

You have greatly disappointed me. You are not what your reputation led me to expect. You appear to be mindless and neurotic in your hatred of XA, to the point where anyone who shares anything at all in common with it, or who stops short of unbridled castigation, is the enemy, and no better than a Stepper.

Well, I didn't accept purge mentalities in XA, and I equally reject it from you. I adhere to no one's orthodoxy, and that includes your fevered brand.

As soon as I send this I'm unsubscribing. Life is too short for anything as unproductive as your (and it really is your) list.

Anyone wishing to contact me in the future will be able to do so through unhooked.com. I am moving to Dallas this coming Thursday, and as soon as I have another email address it will be linked to my name on the online meeting schedule there.

Some of you I have greatly enjoyed, and hope to hear from again.

--Mona--

August 11, 2001

, best of luck and I will be in touch.

Respectfully,

Tommy

>

> Ken: Thanks for creating the list. There are a few questions I

would like

> to throw your way, via email, before I drop out of sight

completely. BTW

> From coercion to the way one tried to weasel out of what's plainly

intended

> by insisting the exact words were never said, done more than once

no less,

> to the genetics arguments and simply the nasty way they post when

it's clear

> someone isn't having it. It's XA deja vu all over again. It's not

just

> them though when I read Decarlo's account of what happened on

the MM

> board and thought about the above I came to realize just how

destructive

> recovery by group, any group, actually is/can be/most likely will

be if one

> hangs around long enough. AA may be the worst but at the moment LSR

and MM

> don't seem much better to me.

>

> Apple: We both know it's not an anti AA site. It's an " anti-

nonsense/crimes

> that go on in and around AA " site. Someday who knows maybe they

will.

> Groupers, as a group, say some of the most hateful hurtful things

I've ever

> seen. They may not like what you have to say Apple but they're

damn sure

> listening. You've made a serious impact. I find it's helpful to

try and

> keep in mind it's fear talking. Thanx.

>

> Ben: I think if I ever decide to write a book about life inside AA

I would

> consult you first of all. Your knowledge and memory of it are

simply

> amazing. I think what I respected most about you Ben was in the

way you

> related what you had to say. Like the time you talked about how

you found a

> therapist.

>

> CG: It's a process brother and you've got one of the better starts

I've

> ever seen. Live it.

>

> Dave Marcoot: Keep the quotes coming. They're amazing in their

ability to

> cut through the bs. You had me rolling when you suggested I bring

a copy of

> " Combating Mind Control Cults " to AA meetings to avoid the insanity

I was

> hearing. Thanks.

>

> Joe: It's like with Ben. You're right btw there isn't one stinking

aspect

> of AA that's wholly beneficial.

>

> Judith Stillwater: Be You. I know you can because you are. You

have been

> great and I'll continue to miss you.

>

> Kay: Sorry to hear about your medical stuff. Wishing you the

best. Though

> I'm ashamed to admit it you've been right more often than not when

you

> nicely told me to shut the hell up. PS I really miss the snoozing

kitty.

> :0)

>

> : The spawnsor is sumpthin else. Thanks for that. When

Pete's

> screwing up you hold his feet to the fire no matter how loud he

screams.

> Trust he can scream with the best of them so be forewarned.

>

> Bjorn: I included Scandinavia in with Europe a fact which no doubt

> confirmed some suspicions you had about American's and geography.

Can you

> tell me where Minnesota is after you point out Indiana, Kentucky,

Louisiana,

> Michigan, Ohio, New Mexico, Nevada, etc and their capitals? :0)

Don't worry

> neither can Pete. ;0) And even though it confirms some things I've

always

> thought about Scandinavians and Europeons I won't hold it against

either of

> you. :0) Look at it this way. At least I said good bye to you

before

> Pete. ;0) Good luck over there and I'll forward a copy of the VA

report as

> soon as I can get my hands on it. Promise! PS Dogs not cats.

>

> Pete: Your sponsor was a number one class A freaking jerk. Your

crazy

> neighbor is just that. You're better than your environment and

Good luck

> God bless. Oh Ya give Joe back his book. He's been asking for it

for quite a

> while now. I'd like to keep my account intact so that you're not

later

> plagued with a clone.

>

> : Ever thought about looking into Cable Access TV? Dupe the

> broadcasts forward them to us across the country and we can

negotiate the

> terms of airing them through our local cable co's. I'm still avail

to make

> the radio broadcasts available online when/if you get the audio

tapes. You

> know where to reach me.

>

> Rita: You're one tough chick. (sorry) I like that. When you've

kicked them

> to the ground there's this one move I learned in the Marine Corps

where

> you..... Ooops ..... never mind. Just keep it up Rita.

>

> Warner: I know steppers constantly second guessing your

motives gets

> to be a pain in the ass. Please don't let that keep you from

putting a foot

> up their a.... every once in awhile.

>

> Tommy: You know where I am if you need me on the military boards.

>

> List: Good bye it's been mostly fun while it lasted. I don't

think I can

> convey to you all the depth of emotion I feel for you right now at

this

> moment. So I won't even try. Just know that hitting the send key

is

> probably one of the hardest things I've found myself doing in quite

some

> time.

>

> Oh hell I'm just delaying now.

>

> Bye

August 11, 2001

, best of luck and I will be in touch.

Respectfully,

Tommy

>

> Ken: Thanks for creating the list. There are a few questions I

would like

> to throw your way, via email, before I drop out of sight

completely. BTW

> From coercion to the way one tried to weasel out of what's plainly

intended

> by insisting the exact words were never said, done more than once

no less,

> to the genetics arguments and simply the nasty way they post when

it's clear

> someone isn't having it. It's XA deja vu all over again. It's not

just

> them though when I read Decarlo's account of what happened on

the MM

> board and thought about the above I came to realize just how

destructive

> recovery by group, any group, actually is/can be/most likely will

be if one

> hangs around long enough. AA may be the worst but at the moment LSR

and MM

> don't seem much better to me.

>

> Apple: We both know it's not an anti AA site. It's an " anti-

nonsense/crimes

> that go on in and around AA " site. Someday who knows maybe they

will.

> Groupers, as a group, say some of the most hateful hurtful things

I've ever

> seen. They may not like what you have to say Apple but they're

damn sure

> listening. You've made a serious impact. I find it's helpful to

try and

> keep in mind it's fear talking. Thanx.

>

> Ben: I think if I ever decide to write a book about life inside AA

I would

> consult you first of all. Your knowledge and memory of it are

simply

> amazing. I think what I respected most about you Ben was in the

way you

> related what you had to say. Like the time you talked about how

you found a

> therapist.

>

> CG: It's a process brother and you've got one of the better starts

I've

> ever seen. Live it.

>

> Dave Marcoot: Keep the quotes coming. They're amazing in their

ability to

> cut through the bs. You had me rolling when you suggested I bring

a copy of

> " Combating Mind Control Cults " to AA meetings to avoid the insanity

I was

> hearing. Thanks.

>

> Joe: It's like with Ben. You're right btw there isn't one stinking

aspect

> of AA that's wholly beneficial.

>

> Judith Stillwater: Be You. I know you can because you are. You

have been

> great and I'll continue to miss you.

>

> Kay: Sorry to hear about your medical stuff. Wishing you the

best. Though

> I'm ashamed to admit it you've been right more often than not when

you

> nicely told me to shut the hell up. PS I really miss the snoozing

kitty.

> :0)

>

> : The spawnsor is sumpthin else. Thanks for that. When

Pete's

> screwing up you hold his feet to the fire no matter how loud he

screams.

> Trust he can scream with the best of them so be forewarned.

>

> Bjorn: I included Scandinavia in with Europe a fact which no doubt

> confirmed some suspicions you had about American's and geography.

Can you

> tell me where Minnesota is after you point out Indiana, Kentucky,

Louisiana,

> Michigan, Ohio, New Mexico, Nevada, etc and their capitals? :0)

Don't worry

> neither can Pete. ;0) And even though it confirms some things I've

always

> thought about Scandinavians and Europeons I won't hold it against

either of

> you. :0) Look at it this way. At least I said good bye to you

before

> Pete. ;0) Good luck over there and I'll forward a copy of the VA

report as

> soon as I can get my hands on it. Promise! PS Dogs not cats.

>

> Pete: Your sponsor was a number one class A freaking jerk. Your

crazy

> neighbor is just that. You're better than your environment and

Good luck

> God bless. Oh Ya give Joe back his book. He's been asking for it

for quite a

> while now. I'd like to keep my account intact so that you're not

later

> plagued with a clone.

>

> : Ever thought about looking into Cable Access TV? Dupe the

> broadcasts forward them to us across the country and we can

negotiate the

> terms of airing them through our local cable co's. I'm still avail

to make

> the radio broadcasts available online when/if you get the audio

tapes. You

> know where to reach me.

>

> Rita: You're one tough chick. (sorry) I like that. When you've

kicked them

> to the ground there's this one move I learned in the Marine Corps

where

> you..... Ooops ..... never mind. Just keep it up Rita.

>

> Warner: I know steppers constantly second guessing your

motives gets

> to be a pain in the ass. Please don't let that keep you from

putting a foot

> up their a.... every once in awhile.

>

> Tommy: You know where I am if you need me on the military boards.

>

> List: Good bye it's been mostly fun while it lasted. I don't

think I can

> convey to you all the depth of emotion I feel for you right now at

this

> moment. So I won't even try. Just know that hitting the send key

is

> probably one of the hardest things I've found myself doing in quite

some

> time.

>

> Oh hell I'm just delaying now.

>

> Bye

August 11, 2001

, best of luck and I will be in touch.

Respectfully,

Tommy

>

> Ken: Thanks for creating the list. There are a few questions I

would like

> to throw your way, via email, before I drop out of sight

completely. BTW

> From coercion to the way one tried to weasel out of what's plainly

intended

> by insisting the exact words were never said, done more than once

no less,

> to the genetics arguments and simply the nasty way they post when

it's clear

> someone isn't having it. It's XA deja vu all over again. It's not

just

> them though when I read Decarlo's account of what happened on

the MM

> board and thought about the above I came to realize just how

destructive

> recovery by group, any group, actually is/can be/most likely will

be if one

> hangs around long enough. AA may be the worst but at the moment LSR

and MM

> don't seem much better to me.

>

> Apple: We both know it's not an anti AA site. It's an " anti-

nonsense/crimes

> that go on in and around AA " site. Someday who knows maybe they

will.

> Groupers, as a group, say some of the most hateful hurtful things

I've ever

> seen. They may not like what you have to say Apple but they're

damn sure

> listening. You've made a serious impact. I find it's helpful to

try and

> keep in mind it's fear talking. Thanx.

>

> Ben: I think if I ever decide to write a book about life inside AA

I would

> consult you first of all. Your knowledge and memory of it are

simply

> amazing. I think what I respected most about you Ben was in the

way you

> related what you had to say. Like the time you talked about how

you found a

> therapist.

>

> CG: It's a process brother and you've got one of the better starts

I've

> ever seen. Live it.

>

> Dave Marcoot: Keep the quotes coming. They're amazing in their

ability to

> cut through the bs. You had me rolling when you suggested I bring

a copy of

> " Combating Mind Control Cults " to AA meetings to avoid the insanity

I was

> hearing. Thanks.

>

> Joe: It's like with Ben. You're right btw there isn't one stinking

aspect

> of AA that's wholly beneficial.

>

> Judith Stillwater: Be You. I know you can because you are. You

have been

> great and I'll continue to miss you.

>

> Kay: Sorry to hear about your medical stuff. Wishing you the

best. Though

> I'm ashamed to admit it you've been right more often than not when

you

> nicely told me to shut the hell up. PS I really miss the snoozing

kitty.

> :0)

>

> : The spawnsor is sumpthin else. Thanks for that. When

Pete's

> screwing up you hold his feet to the fire no matter how loud he

screams.

> Trust he can scream with the best of them so be forewarned.

>

> Bjorn: I included Scandinavia in with Europe a fact which no doubt

> confirmed some suspicions you had about American's and geography.

Can you

> tell me where Minnesota is after you point out Indiana, Kentucky,

Louisiana,

> Michigan, Ohio, New Mexico, Nevada, etc and their capitals? :0)

Don't worry

> neither can Pete. ;0) And even though it confirms some things I've

always

> thought about Scandinavians and Europeons I won't hold it against

either of

> you. :0) Look at it this way. At least I said good bye to you

before

> Pete. ;0) Good luck over there and I'll forward a copy of the VA

report as

> soon as I can get my hands on it. Promise! PS Dogs not cats.

>

> Pete: Your sponsor was a number one class A freaking jerk. Your

crazy

> neighbor is just that. You're better than your environment and

Good luck

> God bless. Oh Ya give Joe back his book. He's been asking for it

for quite a

> while now. I'd like to keep my account intact so that you're not

later

> plagued with a clone.

>

> : Ever thought about looking into Cable Access TV? Dupe the

> broadcasts forward them to us across the country and we can

negotiate the

> terms of airing them through our local cable co's. I'm still avail

to make

> the radio broadcasts available online when/if you get the audio

tapes. You

> know where to reach me.

>

> Rita: You're one tough chick. (sorry) I like that. When you've

kicked them

> to the ground there's this one move I learned in the Marine Corps

where

> you..... Ooops ..... never mind. Just keep it up Rita.

>

> Warner: I know steppers constantly second guessing your

motives gets

> to be a pain in the ass. Please don't let that keep you from

putting a foot

> up their a.... every once in awhile.

>

> Tommy: You know where I am if you need me on the military boards.

>

> List: Good bye it's been mostly fun while it lasted. I don't

think I can

> convey to you all the depth of emotion I feel for you right now at

this

> moment. So I won't even try. Just know that hitting the send key

is

> probably one of the hardest things I've found myself doing in quite

some

> time.

>

> Oh hell I'm just delaying now.

>

> Bye

August 11, 2001

Arroyo wrote:

> Ken: Thanks for creating the list. There are a few questions I would like

> to throw your way, via email, before I drop out of sight completely.

,

Can't say I blame you for going. Much on the list makes me want to barf.

Best of luck whereever you go and whatever you do.

Regards,

Ken

August 11, 2001

>

>,

>

>I hate to see you leave.

>

>I share your judgement that it is XA all over again. Last night I spend a

>few

>minutes on unhooked.com and it seems to be rife with the writings of

> " disease

>pimps " including Blum who made headlines across the country with his

> " finding "

>of a gene responsible for alcoholism. Also, references are made to

>articles at

>step-group front NCADD. Bill White, from what I've heard, is a hard-core

>stepper. Links to two pieces of his titled " Toward a New Recovery Movement "

>and

> " The Rhetoric of Recovery Advocacy " are featured prominently on the home

>page.

Jeesus, Buddha, Muhammed, Yahweh and Zoroaster! Just because a website has

reviews of certain books, that doesn't mean it endorses them

unconditionally. And Marty's review doesn't.

And just because NCADD is " referenced " doesn't mean all of its work is

endorsed, either, you conspiratorial asshole.

>

>Of course, LSR/SOS requires no beliefs, not even in disease theory.

>However,

>neither does AA. With 30-40% of members " owing their life to AA, " and

>discouragement of criticism of AA (at least on other than religious

>grounds), it

>is hard to imagine that there is much difference in meetings than the way

>group

>members are here.

Where the fuck does it say " discouragement of AA is prohibited? " I challenge

you to show one spot on unhooked's website that says that. And, if you were

ever in LSR's email group, or at a face to face SOS meeting, you would

quickly find out your groundless, baseless assertion simply is incorrect.

I believe you are willfully ignorant of secular abstinence groups because

they don't fit your narrow minded agenda.

I've asked before, how many LSR or SOS meetings have you gone to, Beloved

Leader? And you haven't answered.

Where is the " erudite Ken Ragge " that some 12-step-free groupies long for?

>

>I think it was Ben who not long ago wondered why AA didn't object more

>strenuously to the move of SOS into the Texas prison system. Why in the

>world

>should they? Their back is being put to the wall on the religious issue

>and who

>better to use to keep the coerced attendees coming than SOS/LSR? SOS/LSR

>is

>cooperating on all the coercion issues and is the perfect place to do the

>first

>Step of AA, even if members don't know it. You have a disease, your life

>is

>unmanageable without the " help " from a group. (Yes, I know belief in a

>disease

>is not required. It isn't in AA either.) The vast majority of the

>population

>believes in God and so the _rest_ that is wrong with AA won't be pointed

>out to

>people, at least not by SOS/LSR and they can continue to coerce so long as

>they

>have such a benevolent " competitor. " So they give up a tiny percent of the

>one

>to two million coerced every year to a group that holds most of their

>central

>ideas. Better than not having anyone coerced.

We do not hold most of AA's central ideas. You are being willfully perverse

and malicious in distorting and outrightly lying about what LSR and SOS

believe.

Yes, I am calling you a malicious liar, Ken Ragge. Period.

Steve

_________________________________________________________________

Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp

August 11, 2001

>

>,

>

>I hate to see you leave.

>

>I share your judgement that it is XA all over again. Last night I spend a

>few

>minutes on unhooked.com and it seems to be rife with the writings of

> " disease

>pimps " including Blum who made headlines across the country with his

> " finding "

>of a gene responsible for alcoholism. Also, references are made to

>articles at

>step-group front NCADD. Bill White, from what I've heard, is a hard-core

>stepper. Links to two pieces of his titled " Toward a New Recovery Movement "

>and

> " The Rhetoric of Recovery Advocacy " are featured prominently on the home

>page.

Jeesus, Buddha, Muhammed, Yahweh and Zoroaster! Just because a website has

reviews of certain books, that doesn't mean it endorses them

unconditionally. And Marty's review doesn't.

And just because NCADD is " referenced " doesn't mean all of its work is

endorsed, either, you conspiratorial asshole.

>

>Of course, LSR/SOS requires no beliefs, not even in disease theory.

>However,

>neither does AA. With 30-40% of members " owing their life to AA, " and

>discouragement of criticism of AA (at least on other than religious

>grounds), it

>is hard to imagine that there is much difference in meetings than the way

>group

>members are here.

Where the fuck does it say " discouragement of AA is prohibited? " I challenge

you to show one spot on unhooked's website that says that. And, if you were

ever in LSR's email group, or at a face to face SOS meeting, you would

quickly find out your groundless, baseless assertion simply is incorrect.

I believe you are willfully ignorant of secular abstinence groups because

they don't fit your narrow minded agenda.

I've asked before, how many LSR or SOS meetings have you gone to, Beloved

Leader? And you haven't answered.

Where is the " erudite Ken Ragge " that some 12-step-free groupies long for?

>

>I think it was Ben who not long ago wondered why AA didn't object more

>strenuously to the move of SOS into the Texas prison system. Why in the

>world

>should they? Their back is being put to the wall on the religious issue

>and who

>better to use to keep the coerced attendees coming than SOS/LSR? SOS/LSR

>is

>cooperating on all the coercion issues and is the perfect place to do the

>first

>Step of AA, even if members don't know it. You have a disease, your life

>is

>unmanageable without the " help " from a group. (Yes, I know belief in a

>disease

>is not required. It isn't in AA either.) The vast majority of the

>population

>believes in God and so the _rest_ that is wrong with AA won't be pointed

>out to

>people, at least not by SOS/LSR and they can continue to coerce so long as

>they

>have such a benevolent " competitor. " So they give up a tiny percent of the

>one

>to two million coerced every year to a group that holds most of their

>central

>ideas. Better than not having anyone coerced.

We do not hold most of AA's central ideas. You are being willfully perverse

and malicious in distorting and outrightly lying about what LSR and SOS

believe.

Yes, I am calling you a malicious liar, Ken Ragge. Period.

Steve

_________________________________________________________________

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August 11, 2001

>

>,

>

>I hate to see you leave.

>

>I share your judgement that it is XA all over again. Last night I spend a

>few

>minutes on unhooked.com and it seems to be rife with the writings of

> " disease

>pimps " including Blum who made headlines across the country with his

> " finding "

>of a gene responsible for alcoholism. Also, references are made to

>articles at

>step-group front NCADD. Bill White, from what I've heard, is a hard-core

>stepper. Links to two pieces of his titled " Toward a New Recovery Movement "

>and

> " The Rhetoric of Recovery Advocacy " are featured prominently on the home

>page.

Jeesus, Buddha, Muhammed, Yahweh and Zoroaster! Just because a website has

reviews of certain books, that doesn't mean it endorses them

unconditionally. And Marty's review doesn't.

And just because NCADD is " referenced " doesn't mean all of its work is

endorsed, either, you conspiratorial asshole.

>

>Of course, LSR/SOS requires no beliefs, not even in disease theory.

>However,

>neither does AA. With 30-40% of members " owing their life to AA, " and

>discouragement of criticism of AA (at least on other than religious

>grounds), it

>is hard to imagine that there is much difference in meetings than the way

>group

>members are here.

Where the fuck does it say " discouragement of AA is prohibited? " I challenge

you to show one spot on unhooked's website that says that. And, if you were

ever in LSR's email group, or at a face to face SOS meeting, you would

quickly find out your groundless, baseless assertion simply is incorrect.

I believe you are willfully ignorant of secular abstinence groups because

they don't fit your narrow minded agenda.

I've asked before, how many LSR or SOS meetings have you gone to, Beloved

Leader? And you haven't answered.

Where is the " erudite Ken Ragge " that some 12-step-free groupies long for?

>

>I think it was Ben who not long ago wondered why AA didn't object more

>strenuously to the move of SOS into the Texas prison system. Why in the

>world

>should they? Their back is being put to the wall on the religious issue

>and who

>better to use to keep the coerced attendees coming than SOS/LSR? SOS/LSR

>is

>cooperating on all the coercion issues and is the perfect place to do the

>first

>Step of AA, even if members don't know it. You have a disease, your life

>is

>unmanageable without the " help " from a group. (Yes, I know belief in a

>disease

>is not required. It isn't in AA either.) The vast majority of the

>population

>believes in God and so the _rest_ that is wrong with AA won't be pointed

>out to

>people, at least not by SOS/LSR and they can continue to coerce so long as

>they

>have such a benevolent " competitor. " So they give up a tiny percent of the

>one

>to two million coerced every year to a group that holds most of their

>central

>ideas. Better than not having anyone coerced.

We do not hold most of AA's central ideas. You are being willfully perverse

and malicious in distorting and outrightly lying about what LSR and SOS

believe.

Yes, I am calling you a malicious liar, Ken Ragge. Period.

Steve

_________________________________________________________________

Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp

August 11, 2001

> > Where is the " erudite Ken Ragge " that some 12-step-free groupies

long for?

I hate it when I forget what erudite means and have to look it up in

the dictionary. It just makes me feel so... well, not erudite.

August 11, 2001

> > Where is the " erudite Ken Ragge " that some 12-step-free groupies

long for?

I hate it when I forget what erudite means and have to look it up in

the dictionary. It just makes me feel so... well, not erudite.

August 11, 2001

> > Where is the " erudite Ken Ragge " that some 12-step-free groupies

long for?

I hate it when I forget what erudite means and have to look it up in

the dictionary. It just makes me feel so... well, not erudite.

August 11, 2001

Steve Snyder wrote:

> >

> >,

> >

> >I hate to see you leave.

> >

> >I share your judgement that it is XA all over again. Last night I spend a

> >few

> >minutes on unhooked.com and it seems to be rife with the writings of

> > " disease

> >pimps " including Blum who made headlines across the country with his

> > " finding "

> >of a gene responsible for alcoholism. Also, references are made to

> >articles at

> >step-group front NCADD. Bill White, from what I've heard, is a hard-core

> >stepper. Links to two pieces of his titled " Toward a New Recovery Movement "

> >and

> > " The Rhetoric of Recovery Advocacy " are featured prominently on the home

> >page.

>

> Jeesus, Buddha, Muhammed, Yahweh and Zoroaster! Just because a website has

> reviews of certain books, that doesn't mean it endorses them

> unconditionally. And Marty's review doesn't.

> And just because NCADD is " referenced " doesn't mean all of its work is

> endorsed, either, you conspiratorial asshole.

> >

> >Of course, LSR/SOS requires no beliefs, not even in disease theory.

> >However,

> >neither does AA. With 30-40% of members " owing their life to AA, " and

> >discouragement of criticism of AA (at least on other than religious

> >grounds), it

> >is hard to imagine that there is much difference in meetings than the way

> >group

> >members are here.

>

> Where the fuck does it say " discouragement of AA is prohibited? " I challenge

> you to show one spot on unhooked's website that says that. And, if you were

> ever in LSR's email group, or at a face to face SOS meeting, you would

> quickly find out your groundless, baseless assertion simply is incorrect.

> I believe you are willfully ignorant of secular abstinence groups because

> they don't fit your narrow minded agenda.

> I've asked before, how many LSR or SOS meetings have you gone to, Beloved

> Leader? And you haven't answered.

> Where is the " erudite Ken Ragge " that some 12-step-free groupies long for?

Steve,

" 12-step-free groupies " ? Interesting choice of words. I might also ask you

where is the scientific evidence that SOS/LSR " works " any better than AA or

nothing.

The discouragement of criticism has come from both you and Mona.

Yes, NCADD is referenced as a source of facts.

>

> >

> >I think it was Ben who not long ago wondered why AA didn't object more

> >strenuously to the move of SOS into the Texas prison system. Why in the

> >world

> >should they? Their back is being put to the wall on the religious issue

> >and who

> >better to use to keep the coerced attendees coming than SOS/LSR? SOS/LSR

> >is

> >cooperating on all the coercion issues and is the perfect place to do the

> >first

> >Step of AA, even if members don't know it. You have a disease, your life

> >is

> >unmanageable without the " help " from a group. (Yes, I know belief in a

> >disease

> >is not required. It isn't in AA either.) The vast majority of the

> >population

> >believes in God and so the _rest_ that is wrong with AA won't be pointed

> >out to

> >people, at least not by SOS/LSR and they can continue to coerce so long as

> >they

> >have such a benevolent " competitor. " So they give up a tiny percent of the

> >one

> >to two million coerced every year to a group that holds most of their

> >central

> >ideas. Better than not having anyone coerced.

>

> We do not hold most of AA's central ideas.

Nonsense. You hold _their_ science most dear.

Ken Ragge

> You are being willfully perverse

> and malicious in distorting and outrightly lying about what LSR and SOS

> believe.

> Yes, I am calling you a malicious liar, Ken Ragge. Period.

It seems like I've heard that many times before from members of another group.

Ken Ragge

>

> Steve

>

> _________________________________________________________________

> Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp

August 11, 2001

Hi All: Duaine M here: In reply to what works best? I think as far as %es go (no meeting of any kind) works for more people than, I think all of the different kinds of groups combined. ??? I could be wrong? It should be up to each of us what we want to use for our recovery.Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com

August 11, 2001

Hi All: Duaine M here: In reply to what works best? I think as far as %es go (no meeting of any kind) works for more people than, I think all of the different kinds of groups combined. ??? I could be wrong? It should be up to each of us what we want to use for our recovery.Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com

August 11, 2001

Hi All: Duaine M here: In reply to what works best? I think as far as %es go (no meeting of any kind) works for more people than, I think all of the different kinds of groups combined. ??? I could be wrong? It should be up to each of us what we want to use for our recovery.Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com

August 11, 2001

P.S. To above.

I don't doubt the sincerity of those in LSR/SOS who had a coffee pot and

resentment and started a new meeting. I do question how far removed

they are from the meetings they left even if they've made some changes

in language, completely wiping out the religious and keeping the AA

science and alcohol as Devil Drink. I can understand the attraction of

genetics and " physiological differences. " It confers innocence on

repeated bad behavior while drunk. Just stop drinking, which one wants

to do anyway, and one not only has that benefit, but all bad behavior

can be ascribed to " it, " the disease, Devil Drink, genes, however it is

termed. Perhaps that is where much of the need to proseletyze comes

from.

Ken

August 11, 2001