Re: Signing Exact English

[Guest guest]

Linguistically, ASL is a language in itself, which is why, for example,

schools give credit for learning it, like French or Japanese. Learning

it is like learning any language in terms of stimulating or calling up

different parts of the brain. Learning it also requires the same

commitment as any language. People who learn two spoken languages are

able to separate them because of some technical way the brain works

which my daughter has explained to me but I can't recall. In the same

way, a " speaker " of ASL and English would be able to separate them.

Re: Signing Exact English

Using ASL and speech would be kind of difficult wouldn't it?

I am not an

expert here so please don't think I'm opposing anything, but ASL is so

different structurally than English, isn't it?

Our church's interpreter uses ASL, and she has a really hard time with

one of our deaf daughters because she is very English. She usually has

to

change to a more pidgeon sign when signing for our daughters because

of

their good hearing with their C.I.'s.

Just a thought....... Tish

Re: Signing Exact English

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[Guest guest]

Linguistically, ASL is a language in itself, which is why, for example,

schools give credit for learning it, like French or Japanese. Learning

it is like learning any language in terms of stimulating or calling up

different parts of the brain. Learning it also requires the same

commitment as any language. People who learn two spoken languages are

able to separate them because of some technical way the brain works

which my daughter has explained to me but I can't recall. In the same

way, a " speaker " of ASL and English would be able to separate them.

Re: Signing Exact English

Using ASL and speech would be kind of difficult wouldn't it?

I am not an

expert here so please don't think I'm opposing anything, but ASL is so

different structurally than English, isn't it?

Our church's interpreter uses ASL, and she has a really hard time with

one of our deaf daughters because she is very English. She usually has

to

change to a more pidgeon sign when signing for our daughters because

of

their good hearing with their C.I.'s.

Just a thought....... Tish

Re: Signing Exact English

________________________________________________________________________

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[Guest guest]

" Now that so many newborns are being diagnosed, some parents are opting

for kids learning speech via auditory verbal or oral and sign via ASL.

Basically teaching the child two separate languages at the same time

using two sensory modes. (This is pretty different - Not any research

to back this up yet. It never occurred to the professionals to try

this, because they looked at them (1/2 and 5) as contradictory to each

other. You and other parents are thinking outside the box, and who

knows, you could be right! Remember professionals built the Titanic but

a family built the ark! "

Emylie,

If you're looking for research to bolster your case, I'd try

linguistics sources rather than speech/language. My linguist daughter

and her friends are shocked by some of the information I have told

them that I have heard or read by the latter. Linguists have been doing

research in this area for years. They have also been surprised by some

speech teaching techniques. Apparently some of these seem primitive,

given what is known to linguists.

________________________________________________________________________

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[Guest guest]

" Now that so many newborns are being diagnosed, some parents are opting

for kids learning speech via auditory verbal or oral and sign via ASL.

Basically teaching the child two separate languages at the same time

using two sensory modes. (This is pretty different - Not any research

to back this up yet. It never occurred to the professionals to try

this, because they looked at them (1/2 and 5) as contradictory to each

other. You and other parents are thinking outside the box, and who

knows, you could be right! Remember professionals built the Titanic but

a family built the ark! "

Emylie,

If you're looking for research to bolster your case, I'd try

linguistics sources rather than speech/language. My linguist daughter

and her friends are shocked by some of the information I have told

them that I have heard or read by the latter. Linguists have been doing

research in this area for years. They have also been surprised by some

speech teaching techniques. Apparently some of these seem primitive,

given what is known to linguists.

________________________________________________________________________

Check out AOL.com today. Breaking news, video search, pictures, email

and IM. All on demand. Always Free.

[Guest guest]

" Now that so many newborns are being diagnosed, some parents are opting

for kids learning speech via auditory verbal or oral and sign via ASL.

Basically teaching the child two separate languages at the same time

using two sensory modes. (This is pretty different - Not any research

to back this up yet. It never occurred to the professionals to try

this, because they looked at them (1/2 and 5) as contradictory to each

other. You and other parents are thinking outside the box, and who

knows, you could be right! Remember professionals built the Titanic but

a family built the ark! "

Emylie,

If you're looking for research to bolster your case, I'd try

linguistics sources rather than speech/language. My linguist daughter

and her friends are shocked by some of the information I have told

them that I have heard or read by the latter. Linguists have been doing

research in this area for years. They have also been surprised by some

speech teaching techniques. Apparently some of these seem primitive,

given what is known to linguists.

________________________________________________________________________

Check out AOL.com today. Breaking news, video search, pictures, email

and IM. All on demand. Always Free.

[Guest guest]

, we have some friends whose son is deaf, and the dad is working on a

PhD in linguistics and the mom was already an SLP but got further training as a

Cert AVT. They are SOOOOOOOOOOO interesting to talk to and learn from! They

have both definitely learned a lot from each other and their son.

Re: Signing Exact English

>

>

> " Now that so many newborns are being diagnosed, some parents are opting

>for kids learning speech via auditory verbal or oral and sign via ASL.

>Basically teaching the child two separate languages at the same time

>using two sensory modes. (This is pretty different - Not any research

>to back this up yet. It never occurred to the professionals to try

>this, because they looked at them (1/2 and 5) as contradictory to each

>other. You and other parents are thinking outside the box, and who

>knows, you could be right! Remember professionals built the Titanic but

>a family built the ark! "

>

>Emylie,

>

>If you're looking for research to bolster your case, I'd try

>linguistics sources rather than speech/language. My linguist daughter

>and her friends are shocked by some of the information I have told

>them that I have heard or read by the latter. Linguists have been doing

>research in this area for years. They have also been surprised by some

>speech teaching techniques. Apparently some of these seem primitive,

>given what is known to linguists.

>

>

>________________________________________________________________________

>Check out AOL.com today. Breaking news, video search, pictures, email

>and IM. All on demand. Always Free.

>

>

>

>

>All messages posted to this list are private and confidential. Each post is

the intellectual property of the author and therefore subject to copyright

restrictions.

>

[Guest guest]

I am noticing a bunch of these posts are coming from parents who did not

have a child diagnosed as early as you, so they may not feel as helpful.

My daughter failed the newborn hearing screening and received her first

pair of loaner hearing aids at 11 weeks of age. She has a

moderate/moderately severe hearing loss. (Appears that it is actually

more in the moderate range, but the first testing put it in the moderate

to moderately severe range.)

We decided to go with ASL. We figured that since we have no idea what

caused her hearing loss, we also have no idea whether it may progress.

We would like her to know ASL so that she may communicate in another

language if she needs to later. Since our daughter is just now 19

months old, we are not worrying too much about the grammar of ASL and

are using " pidgin sign, " signing in English word order, but only using

ASL signs.

Signing is absolutely helpful with our daughter. It helps in ways that

I never even thought of when we first made the decision to sign with

her. For example, as she starts to make new sounds for words, I know

which word she is trying to say because she also signs it. That way, I

know what she is trying to say and can model it correctly. There is

much less frustration on her part because I often know what she is

trying to say.

As some others did say, it is your decision which language or mode of

communication to use with your family, not the school system or the

early intervention people.

You really do have some time to figure this out, with your child only

being seven months old. I would suggest starting out with some ASL

signs, which many have mentioned are also used in SEE and Signed

English. They will be helpful in any later choice you make.

If you want to discuss with me more about how I worked at teaching my

HOH daughter to communicate with English and ASL signs, feel free to

email me privately. Right now, my daughter signs over a hundred signs

and is probably saying at least 50 words, with some two word phrases, as

well as learning to say " May I be excused? " (which comes out as " Bay I

scu? " along with the signs.

in Manassas, VA

[Guest guest]

Hi,

Jaden is now 4 years old and just started the school

district's TC preschool class 7 months ago. He failed

newborn screening and at 2 months old we started home

visits from EI and used CASE and SEE. Jaden was also

daignosed with Auditory Neuropathy so we did not know

what or how he was hearing things so we thought TC,

signing and speaking, would be the best choice at that

point. We stopped signing all together at 2 1/2 years

old when Jaden was implanted and placed in an Oral

program. To make a long story short.....the first

implant was defective and now more then a year into

this impant he is not responding to it at all. That is

how we ended up at the TC preschool classroom, enough

was enough with the lack of language and we decided

that he needed to be in a language rich environment

all day and not just at home. There are 5 children in

his class, 3 HOH girls and 1 Deaf boy. The HOH girls

tend to have more speech so the teacher is able to use

more Pidgeon ASL with them and then switch to more of

a strict ASL with Jaden and the other Deaf boy. At the

beginning of our journey with Jaden and proper school

placement, I was very addement as to wanting him to

learn SEE so that things like reading would come much

easier to him and eventually he would have a better

understanding of English. The teacher as well as the

school districe made accomodations to make sure that

Jaden's needs were met in the language that would most

benefit him in learning the language that we chose for

him. Well, he has shown us different. He has taken off

with ASL and is very visual in his expressive

language. I'm not as concerned at this point in our

journey because Jaden has been through so much and

went so long without language that it has affected

other developmental areas and caused other issues. We

are just relieved to have a way of communicating with

him and him with us. He is still wearing his implant

and he is surrounded by speech all day everyday and

continues intense speech therapy. At this point, I

don't feel that the use of ASL is keeping him from

progressing with speech.

I guess all I wanted to say is that either way you

choose to go will benefit as long as the child is

getting language. At some point your child will show

you and as parents we must be sensitive to the subtle

signs that our children show us. They will always in

some way let us know exactly what it is that they

need.

Feel free to ask me any questions that you might have,

I'm just here to help.

le

[Guest guest]

Thank you everyone for telling me your stories. . . this is the

sanity check that I needed. You are all right -- We need to do what

we believe it right for Donovan, and I really believe we are right

going with ASL and speaking (for now).

Also your feedback was really helpful and I now understand that SEE

uses ASL -- this means that we can use ASL for key words: eat, milk,

water, mama, daddy, sister, more, etc.. while we work on speaking

and make a determination for SEE or ASL in a year or two once we

know how he is progressing Orally, etc.

I have not told my story because I feel like it is so long and who

cares, but each of your stories have been so helpful and therapeutic

I feel the need to share. Please feel free to stop reading now if

you are not up for a book ļ

Donovan was identified during newborn screening and this was our

first introduction to the Deaf world. We have a great Parent Infant

program with advisors and audiologists and a great ECI case worker.

However, we did not know anything and we were told not to sign, that

it would interfere with Donovan's speaking. We were told if his

hearing loss was to progress then we could get a CI that would " fix "

things and that was that. I am sure the intentions were good - and

initially we were satisfied with that. BUT I started wanting to

learn more.

I did some research but the information was confusing. All the

arguments seemed to adamantly argue one point vs another ¡V there is

not a lot out there about Total Communication, and I was terrified

about doing anything that might interfere with his learning to

speak. My parents had a neighbor years ago who was a professor at

Gallaudet. She is a Deaf consultant for a Cochlear Implant doctor

and is very involved in the deaf community/culture even though she

is hearing (her parents were deaf and professors at Colorado).

I also visited a deaf church, had lunch with some of the deaf

mothers. I also talked with some teachers in our community. One who

has a masters in Deaf Education and one who is a principal in our

school district who¡¦s children are hearing impaired.

Throughout this all I learned several things:

1) Language, Language, Language ¡V who cares what it is, teach

your child a language ¡V to communicate ¡V as soon as possible.

2) Success in the Oral world (listening and speaking) is not

guaranteed. Even with a moderate hearing loss, some children will

never be able to master speaking. Unfortunately, it can take several

years before this accepted and that whole time for language

development could be lost.

3) It is a lot of work for a Hearing Impaired Individual to

listen and speak. Even some of the best speakers I met (some I

would not even have known were deaf) would default to signing when

there was someone to sign with them ¡V I imagine this is similar to

my co-worker from Puerto Rico who speaks great English but meets up

with someone from their PR and immediately switches to Spanish.

4) The Deaf community is a strong and vibrant community. The

language of this community is ASL. My son will be a part of this

community ¡V it is up to him to choose how to define himself and

where he will feel the most comfortable. Not me to expect him to fit

into my world.

So while I am optimistic that Donovan will learn to speak. I feel

like teaching him a second language will only help. Like another

mom said ¡V if he is struggling to say a word, he can sign it to me

and I can help him speak it, instead of the frustration of not

knowing what he is trying to communicate. Our DR has been pretty

convincing that with CX26 at any time Donovan¡¦s hearing loss could

progress ¡V even in the next couple months, and a Cochlear Implant is

serious surgery and not to be taken lightly. So having a " back up

plan " is important to us. and Even with hearing aids or a CI ¡V we

will swim and be at the beach, or get up at night with nightmares or

sickness and need to be able to communicate -- again a second

language is a must.

So long story short ¡V we will pick a path that is speaking plus.

But I guess I am learning everyday I cannot plan it all out now,

instead I need to be proactive yet flexible and continue to grow.

Thank you all again for being here, and caring even though you don¡¦t

know us. I feel like a burden to my friends and family sometime

even though I know that is silly, even worse I feel like they don¡¦t

really know when they give advice since they don¡¦t have a kid in

this situation. I know that is just silly and I appreciate them so

much ¡V but you all and this site, its just really great. Thank you

>

> I am looking for books, or videos for this. If someone knows good

ones or

> any other information that might be helpful. Thanks.

>

> -mom to 5, severe/profound hl

> 11 hearing, and 13 hearing

>

[Guest guest]

Jill,

I wish I could convince her to work in this area. She's mostly

interested in phonology now.

Re: Signing Exact English

In a message dated 7/6/2006 6:18:40 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,

stromms@... writes:

If you're looking for research to bolster your case, I'd try

linguistics sources rather than speech/language. My linguist daughter

and her friends are shocked by some of the information I have told

them that I have heard or read by the latter. Linguists have been

doing

research in this area for years. They have also been surprised by some

speech teaching techniques. Apparently some of these seem primitive,

given what is known to linguists.

,

Sounds like your daughter has a built-in source for new research and

papers

to publish!

-- Jill

[Guest guest]

I learned French in school starting in 2nd grade. We did the first and second

years of high school level french in 7th and 8th grade. We moved to Florida

when I was in 8th, and when I got to high school and had french again, they

used the same book for French I that I had in 7th grade. Then my husband joined

the military and where did we go?? Germany! I found that as I learned German

it moved the French out of my brain. I went to buy gas once in France and

couldn't remember the word for 20 so I had to get 30 liters of gas! I

definitely only had 2 tracks in my brain for language. My oldest daughter was 2

when we went to Germany and 5 when we left. She was fluent in German and

English. She now is fluent in Italian, can speak passably in Spanish and can

mimic any accent from anywhere. She can't really speak German anymore, but when

she hears it she understands it without feeling like she is translating it. The

first time it happened she thought everyone in a German Gasthaus was speaking

English. She definitely has a brain wired for multiple languages.

Another tidbit, when doing functional MRI's of the brains of native ASL users,

the left hemisphere lights up, which is where auditory language is processed.

They were very surprised at this finding because they had hypothesized that ASL

would be processed in the visual centers of the brain.

Moral of the story, bilingual is better, trilingual is terrific! The average

European is trilinigual, while the average american is extremely monolingual.

They key is to learn early, which we don't do in the US, we wait til High

School.

[Guest guest]

> I did some research but the information was confusing.

That's for sure. But, your initial choice isn't written in stone - you can

change or modify as you gain more info or your needs change. The important

thing is to get started somewhere. And make no mistake about it, even if

you're not formally working on something, the child is learning. JD wasn't

diagnosed till 18 months partially because he was teaching himself to

speech-read and was using his vision more to help compensate for his

hearing. After he was diagnosed with severe hearing loss I tried mouthing

the words " bye-bye " . Sure enough, he would start waving.

One of the reason's there are so many approaches and paths is because there

is no one approach that is right for everyone. Think of it this way: How

many learning styles are there? Lets say a child is wired for an auditory

learning style and for whatever reason, has a hearing loss. Does that make

his optimal learning style any less than auditory? Or say a hearing child's

learning style is optimally visual. His being able to hear doesn't make his

learning style any less visual. Each of these learning styles will

ultimately affect whatever communication option is best for them. What I've

found works best for my son is to let him lead, because ultimately, he's the

one who it's going to affect the most in life.

I can't tell you how many times I've had to defend the fact that my son, now

19, was raised orally (in fact, the last time was this morning.)

Bottom line is that he's happy with his communication choice. How do I know

he is? Out of the blue last year, he came up to me and hugged me then

thanked me for making the communication choices for him that I did. All I

did was follow his lead.

>>Even some of the best speakers I met (some I would not even have known

>>were deaf) would default to signing when there was someone to sign with

>>them<<

Not my son - of course he's always been his own person. He doesn't sign with

anyone just because they both may know sign. He'll only sign if they can't

or won't use their voice.

>> Even with hearing aids or a CI we will swim and be at the beach, or get

>> up at night with nightmares or sickness and need to be able to

>> communicate -- again a second language is a must.<<

I hear these arguments a lot, but my son does quite fine with speech-reading

during these times. His knowledge of sign comes as a second language, in

High School, and mostly so he can answer the questions he gets from people

who sign - usually about his being oral or his cochlear implant. Even now,

if I try to sign to him he'll answer me orally.

So, I say again, there are so many approaches because there is no one right

approach for every child. What's important is to find one that works for

them.

-Kay

[Guest guest]

When we were in EI we did not have an official diagnosis of any hearing loss

(although it was quite obivious to us the family) but they were signing for

all the kids to have language. Most of them children in the class had no

language. Most of the signs were ASL but a few were SEE in fact when I went

to the book shelf to find a sign dictionary the only one they had was a SEE

one. We went out an bought ASL dictionaries and books. When he went to

preschool he was in a TC classroom and the teacher was great she could sign

ASL and talk (English) at the same time. She was Trilingual or more.

Amazing.

Currently I am working in the deaf/hoh classroom at our school in FL. We

are using TC. In my son's room it is Preschool and Kindergarten. For the

pre K they are just giving them the signs all ASL. Just to develop their

language. By the time they are ready to read in K they have the signs and

now can add the English signs (the, by, am, is, etc...) to the vocabulary

and the child can read the same stories as any other Kindergartener and in

English order. I believe if they have the ASL signs they can easily bridge

the gap and cross over to English when needed for Reading and other

academics. It is common for deaf/hoh children to have a delay in

language/reading skills but I believe that usually due to the fact that they

are more often than not born to hearing parents who are learning the

language (ASL) along with them rather being able to be the teacher as they

are for a hearing child. Hearing children born to Deaf parents that I have

met have not shown any delays in their academics.

I met a woman once who used CASE (all ASL signs but in English order)

basically same as TC classroom and when her children were older they went to

the state school for the deaf. She said they did get teased a bit because

of the way they signed but they quickly picked up the ASL syntex. I think

you have to decide what it is going to work for you and then do that. And

you have the right to change when it isn't working for the child.

kim in Fl