Re: Signing Exact English

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 7/6/2006 2:41:49 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,

emyliemarie@... writes:

Anyways, I am rambling, but my real question is: does anyone have

experience with SEE? Or SEE versus ASL?

Actually I want to skip the discussion of ASL/SEE for a moment and say that

if your choice is to use ASL, then that is what they should be supporting. You

parents choose the language for your child, not the Early Intervention

people. I would push for my choice, not accept another language solution just

because it's what they happen to have on hand.

I never fought for a language choice but other here have and perhaps they

can give you some advice on how to accomplish it.

That said, there are pros and cons for both ASL and SEE, and many people are

very opinionated about supporting their choice. In our house, we're open to

all options. And Listen-Up's stance is that neither is " better " than the

other -- the right choice is what works for your child. From my point of view

SEE

and ASL are fundamentally different and have different applications based on

your goals for your children.

When I started to sign with Ian, I used ASL signs in English word order,

what's usually referred to as " pidgin " sign. It's how I was able to open up my

very oral (and at the time, angry) son to the option of a visual language. It

could have grown into the use of either SEE or ASL.

Had Ian needed visual help to support learning English, we would probably

have used SEE. It is a visual interpretation of spoken English. The pro I see

here is that it is a visual support of the actual language and helps with

speech and reading. The con, I guess, is that it isn't an language in itself

and

involves more hand signals. I see it as a tool to support a language, not a

language itself. And others will definitely disagree with me on this point

stating that it is the visual representation of our spoken language therefore

an

extension of that language.

ASL is an acknowledged language in itself with a different word order than

English, similar to French (and the other romance languages). The pro here

would be that it is the language of the deaf community and is understood by more

people. The con would be that it doesn't reflect spoken or written English.

Verbs are not conjugated the way English is, there are no prefixes or suffixes

-- it's not a visual representation of English, but a visual language of its

own. From what I've read, learning English can be hard for some kids whose

primary language is ASL. And yet, here on this list are kids who've used

both very successfully.

So, which signing modality you choose would depend on what your goals are.

We are an oral family and Ian spoke long before we discovered his loss. He was

reading about grade level when we finally did discover it. We did not need a

visual language for him because he is about as oral as you get.

However, Ian has become more and more open to signing. At first we used my

hideous pidgin sign in water situations (pool, river, beach) and quiet places

(museums, church, etc). Once Ian expressed an interest, we chose to learn ASL

and have been for about a year. We chose it because it is the language of

the deaf community.

There are also other sign modalities (cued speech, AVT, and others) that I

know very little about. Other people here can tell you about those. These two

were the ones we considered way back at the beginning.

Hope this helps -- Jill

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 7/6/2006 2:41:49 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,

emyliemarie@... writes:

Anyways, I am rambling, but my real question is: does anyone have

experience with SEE? Or SEE versus ASL?

Actually I want to skip the discussion of ASL/SEE for a moment and say that

if your choice is to use ASL, then that is what they should be supporting. You

parents choose the language for your child, not the Early Intervention

people. I would push for my choice, not accept another language solution just

because it's what they happen to have on hand.

I never fought for a language choice but other here have and perhaps they

can give you some advice on how to accomplish it.

That said, there are pros and cons for both ASL and SEE, and many people are

very opinionated about supporting their choice. In our house, we're open to

all options. And Listen-Up's stance is that neither is " better " than the

other -- the right choice is what works for your child. From my point of view

SEE

and ASL are fundamentally different and have different applications based on

your goals for your children.

When I started to sign with Ian, I used ASL signs in English word order,

what's usually referred to as " pidgin " sign. It's how I was able to open up my

very oral (and at the time, angry) son to the option of a visual language. It

could have grown into the use of either SEE or ASL.

Had Ian needed visual help to support learning English, we would probably

have used SEE. It is a visual interpretation of spoken English. The pro I see

here is that it is a visual support of the actual language and helps with

speech and reading. The con, I guess, is that it isn't an language in itself

and

involves more hand signals. I see it as a tool to support a language, not a

language itself. And others will definitely disagree with me on this point

stating that it is the visual representation of our spoken language therefore

an

extension of that language.

ASL is an acknowledged language in itself with a different word order than

English, similar to French (and the other romance languages). The pro here

would be that it is the language of the deaf community and is understood by more

people. The con would be that it doesn't reflect spoken or written English.

Verbs are not conjugated the way English is, there are no prefixes or suffixes

-- it's not a visual representation of English, but a visual language of its

own. From what I've read, learning English can be hard for some kids whose

primary language is ASL. And yet, here on this list are kids who've used

both very successfully.

So, which signing modality you choose would depend on what your goals are.

We are an oral family and Ian spoke long before we discovered his loss. He was

reading about grade level when we finally did discover it. We did not need a

visual language for him because he is about as oral as you get.

However, Ian has become more and more open to signing. At first we used my

hideous pidgin sign in water situations (pool, river, beach) and quiet places

(museums, church, etc). Once Ian expressed an interest, we chose to learn ASL

and have been for about a year. We chose it because it is the language of

the deaf community.

There are also other sign modalities (cued speech, AVT, and others) that I

know very little about. Other people here can tell you about those. These two

were the ones we considered way back at the beginning.

Hope this helps -- Jill

[Guest guest]

no experience, but some professionals are telling me while ASL is great,

cued speech or something else might be better for children because ASL can

keep a child from using their residual hearing or attempting language at all

just what i've heard--not promoting anything

>

> Thank you to those who wrote back about CX26. I guess overall it

> matters very little what the prognosis is and only matters what

> actually happens and how we deal with it.

>

> Speaking of how we deal – my plan has been to use ASL and speech

> with my son. This was an important and difficult decision that we

> came to because our school is Oral and strongly discouraged

> signing. However, I did a lot of research and determined this was

> the right plan for our family.

>

> NOW, the ECI contact from our school district has told us that they

> use SEE (Signing Exact English) in our district and she would be

> able to come to our house and provide additional resources for SEE –

> but not ASL. I feel our hands are tied for the short term because

> we definitely want to be able to use the school's resources and if

> they only provide SEE then Donovan will need to know SEE. So I

> suppose we will have to do SEE and speech. Then after he is up and

> running with speaking, and reading, and using SEE we can send him to

> ASL camp or something. . .

>

> Anyways, I am rambling, but my real question is: does anyone have

> experience with SEE? Or SEE versus ASL?

>

> Thank you for your help,

> Emylie

> Mother of Kaiden – 6, Hearing and Donovan, 7mos, Moderate Hearing

> Loss

>

>

>

--

Robin Tomlinson

thetomlinsons@...

[Guest guest]

Hello,

I do have experience with ASL/SEE.

First of all, I personally think whatever mode you choose does not

affect whether your child speaks or not, but rather the childs

personality will often dictate how much they prefer to talk. There

is no perfect method for anyone and do not let anyone tell you your

child will not be a talker because they use sign or will never have

the ability to sign because they only talk.

I can only give you an opinion from my perspective, but I thought I

would throw out one a little different. My son has really progressed

in his talking/speech and we used sign before we knew he was HOH.

The longer he has been hearing the more he is talking, that is the

nature of being in a mainstream classroom. (Or with an oral school)

Our signing seems to make no difference except we can communicate

anytime, not just when he's wearing his hearing aids. We use pidgeon

sign at home with speech and a similar form at school. Many of the

signs used in SEE are the same as ASL but there are also many parts

of English speech which are not in ASL that are signed. We prefer to

finger spell any parts of speech he can't hear rather than another

entire pile of signs for SEE. Although many SEE signs have made

their way into ASL.

I don't think either method will hinder the child's ability to sign

with others, it may just be more difficult. The Deaf community from

my interactions would prefer a person to use Pidgeon sign (ASL signs

in English word order) over SEE. I guess my point is...do what is

right for you and your family. If you want to use ASL then do that

and don't let anyone tell you what they want you to do. You know

what you want for your child and they don't always know best! You

may find as you go along that you have changed your mind completely,

but that is your family's choice.

My two bits, good luck and keep us informed.

Regina

Mom to Max 5yrs severe/profound SNHL

and Cecelia 2 1/2 hearing

> Speaking of how we deal – my plan has been to use ASL and speech

> with my son. This was an important and difficult decision that we

> came to because our school is Oral and strongly discouraged

> signing. However, I did a lot of research and determined this was

> the right plan for our family.

>

> NOW, the ECI contact from our school district has told us that

they

> use SEE (Signing Exact English) in our district and she would be

> able to come to our house and provide additional resources for

SEE –

> but not ASL. I feel our hands are tied for the short term

because

> Anyways, I am rambling, but my real question is: does anyone have

> experience with SEE? Or SEE versus ASL?

>

> Thank you for your help,

> Emylie

> Mother of Kaiden – 6, Hearing and Donovan, 7mos, Moderate Hearing

> Loss

>

[Guest guest]

Hello,

I do have experience with ASL/SEE.

First of all, I personally think whatever mode you choose does not

affect whether your child speaks or not, but rather the childs

personality will often dictate how much they prefer to talk. There

is no perfect method for anyone and do not let anyone tell you your

child will not be a talker because they use sign or will never have

the ability to sign because they only talk.

I can only give you an opinion from my perspective, but I thought I

would throw out one a little different. My son has really progressed

in his talking/speech and we used sign before we knew he was HOH.

The longer he has been hearing the more he is talking, that is the

nature of being in a mainstream classroom. (Or with an oral school)

Our signing seems to make no difference except we can communicate

anytime, not just when he's wearing his hearing aids. We use pidgeon

sign at home with speech and a similar form at school. Many of the

signs used in SEE are the same as ASL but there are also many parts

of English speech which are not in ASL that are signed. We prefer to

finger spell any parts of speech he can't hear rather than another

entire pile of signs for SEE. Although many SEE signs have made

their way into ASL.

I don't think either method will hinder the child's ability to sign

with others, it may just be more difficult. The Deaf community from

my interactions would prefer a person to use Pidgeon sign (ASL signs

in English word order) over SEE. I guess my point is...do what is

right for you and your family. If you want to use ASL then do that

and don't let anyone tell you what they want you to do. You know

what you want for your child and they don't always know best! You

may find as you go along that you have changed your mind completely,

but that is your family's choice.

My two bits, good luck and keep us informed.

Regina

Mom to Max 5yrs severe/profound SNHL

and Cecelia 2 1/2 hearing

> Speaking of how we deal – my plan has been to use ASL and speech

> with my son. This was an important and difficult decision that we

> came to because our school is Oral and strongly discouraged

> signing. However, I did a lot of research and determined this was

> the right plan for our family.

>

> NOW, the ECI contact from our school district has told us that

they

> use SEE (Signing Exact English) in our district and she would be

> able to come to our house and provide additional resources for

SEE –

> but not ASL. I feel our hands are tied for the short term

because

> Anyways, I am rambling, but my real question is: does anyone have

> experience with SEE? Or SEE versus ASL?

>

> Thank you for your help,

> Emylie

> Mother of Kaiden – 6, Hearing and Donovan, 7mos, Moderate Hearing

> Loss

>

[Guest guest]

1. Hayley was implanted at age 10 and used ASL and a Signed English

prior to that, along with twice weekly speech therapy. Post implant,

she can voice words in English order but I have noticed that when she

signs - it is becoming more ASL as she continues to be educated in a

deaf school. I know many kids that use ASL but voice and write in

English. My personal opinion is that English fluency is important,

whether written or spoken.

Emylie - I actually dont' know too many people who use SEE (if I know

anybody at all). I've known Hayley was deaf for 12 years now, and in

that time we've used Signed English in conjunction with spoken

English, or been involved in TC programs in California and PA. As

your son gets older and as adolescence approaches, he will may drop

the Signed Exact English signs and incorporate more of the ASL

signs. Another thing you can do is you go to classes and learn the

ASL signs - from what I understand is that many of the SEE signs are

taken from ASL and then add " ing " " LY " fingerspelled after the sign.

I think that in all those years I have met ONE person who was an

interpreter who scolded himself for using " English " signs. Are you

sure they are saying SEE vs. Signed English? Signed English is more

ASL ish signs in English word order.

I hope I have not confused you too much.

>> > NOW, the ECI contact from our school district has told us that

they

> > use SEE (Signing Exact English) in our district and she would be

> > able to come to our house and provide additional resources for

SEE †"

> > but not ASL. I feel our hands are tied for the short term because

> > we definitely want to be able to use the school's resources and if

> > they only provide SEE then Donovan will need to know SEE. So I

> > suppose we will have to do SEE and speech. Then after he is up and

> > running with speaking, and reading, and using SEE we can send him

to

> > ASL camp or something. . .

> >

> > Anyways, I am rambling, but my real question is: does anyone have

> > experience with SEE? Or SEE versus ASL?

[Guest guest]

1. Hayley was implanted at age 10 and used ASL and a Signed English

prior to that, along with twice weekly speech therapy. Post implant,

she can voice words in English order but I have noticed that when she

signs - it is becoming more ASL as she continues to be educated in a

deaf school. I know many kids that use ASL but voice and write in

English. My personal opinion is that English fluency is important,

whether written or spoken.

Emylie - I actually dont' know too many people who use SEE (if I know

anybody at all). I've known Hayley was deaf for 12 years now, and in

that time we've used Signed English in conjunction with spoken

English, or been involved in TC programs in California and PA. As

your son gets older and as adolescence approaches, he will may drop

the Signed Exact English signs and incorporate more of the ASL

signs. Another thing you can do is you go to classes and learn the

ASL signs - from what I understand is that many of the SEE signs are

taken from ASL and then add " ing " " LY " fingerspelled after the sign.

I think that in all those years I have met ONE person who was an

interpreter who scolded himself for using " English " signs. Are you

sure they are saying SEE vs. Signed English? Signed English is more

ASL ish signs in English word order.

I hope I have not confused you too much.

>> > NOW, the ECI contact from our school district has told us that

they

> > use SEE (Signing Exact English) in our district and she would be

> > able to come to our house and provide additional resources for

SEE †"

> > but not ASL. I feel our hands are tied for the short term because

> > we definitely want to be able to use the school's resources and if

> > they only provide SEE then Donovan will need to know SEE. So I

> > suppose we will have to do SEE and speech. Then after he is up and

> > running with speaking, and reading, and using SEE we can send him

to

> > ASL camp or something. . .

> >

> > Anyways, I am rambling, but my real question is: does anyone have

> > experience with SEE? Or SEE versus ASL?

[Guest guest]

1. Hayley was implanted at age 10 and used ASL and a Signed English

prior to that, along with twice weekly speech therapy. Post implant,

she can voice words in English order but I have noticed that when she

signs - it is becoming more ASL as she continues to be educated in a

deaf school. I know many kids that use ASL but voice and write in

English. My personal opinion is that English fluency is important,

whether written or spoken.

Emylie - I actually dont' know too many people who use SEE (if I know

anybody at all). I've known Hayley was deaf for 12 years now, and in

that time we've used Signed English in conjunction with spoken

English, or been involved in TC programs in California and PA. As

your son gets older and as adolescence approaches, he will may drop

the Signed Exact English signs and incorporate more of the ASL

signs. Another thing you can do is you go to classes and learn the

ASL signs - from what I understand is that many of the SEE signs are

taken from ASL and then add " ing " " LY " fingerspelled after the sign.

I think that in all those years I have met ONE person who was an

interpreter who scolded himself for using " English " signs. Are you

sure they are saying SEE vs. Signed English? Signed English is more

ASL ish signs in English word order.

I hope I have not confused you too much.

>> > NOW, the ECI contact from our school district has told us that

they

> > use SEE (Signing Exact English) in our district and she would be

> > able to come to our house and provide additional resources for

SEE †"

> > but not ASL. I feel our hands are tied for the short term because

> > we definitely want to be able to use the school's resources and if

> > they only provide SEE then Donovan will need to know SEE. So I

> > suppose we will have to do SEE and speech. Then after he is up and

> > running with speaking, and reading, and using SEE we can send him

to

> > ASL camp or something. . .

> >

> > Anyways, I am rambling, but my real question is: does anyone have

> > experience with SEE? Or SEE versus ASL?

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 7/6/2006 5:36:36 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,

lavhome@... writes:

Using ASL and speech would be kind of difficult wouldn't it?

I have a terrible time signing with " voice on " because then I think in

English and I sign in English word order, which is a mess and just doesn't work.

I

can't translate it in my head. If I do, then I literally stutter as I sign,

which makes our teacher laugh. She says I'm the only person she's seen with an

ASL stutter, LOL.

Instead I tend to whisper some key words and make certain noises, just like

our teacher does when she signs. However, I pidgin sign in English word order

with my hearing daughter all the time, and can easily speak when doing that.

I do this so I can try to push her to sign and learn more vocabulary.

Just in case anyone gets the idea that I'm good at this, think again. I'm a

novice and make so many mistakes it's a wonder anyone can understand me. I

constantly confuse D and F fingerspelling signs, creating some very silly words

and I definitely stutter when I et lost in the middle of a word. I can't

watch my hand when I fingerspell or I am completely lost. I figure I'm equal to

a really little kid trying to learn the language, LOL

Best -- Jill

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 7/6/2006 5:45:08 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,

pcknott@... writes:

You may have a little struggle if you don't simply accept what they offer

you, but most parents find that what the schools offer you is not usually all

that your child needs.

Amen!

Jill

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 7/6/2006 5:45:08 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,

pcknott@... writes:

There is a big Deaf community in DC. She says this makes her mad. She

doesn't consider herself " deaf " she just wears hearing aids! Also, she feels

like

she looks stupid because she knows no sign. So it is sort of a double standard

she has!

,

That is part of the reason that Ian decided he wanted to learn to sign. When

he did that coffee break that I've told you guys about -- when it was him in

a little collection of HOH/d/Deaf people standing at a rest-stop chatting and

having coffee. They assumed he could sign, and suddenly he wished he could.

He felt something was missing. He realized he didn't even know how to offer

the signing adults a choice of coffee, juice or water.

And now he does.

For those who haven't read this story before, the short version. That day

there was an " aha " moment for my husband. Our son is a boy scout and their troop

does community service every month or so where they hand-out coffee, juice

(or cocoa) and water at a rest stop on a local interstate. That day, my

husband looked up and saw that our once painfully shy son was standing in a

little

group of deaf adults, chatting and socializing and suddenly realized that his

son really was going to be okay. The boy was becoming quite the capable

young man and he felt incredibly proud of him. One of those parental aha

moments

that take you by surprise.

Best -- Jill

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 7/6/2006 6:02:27 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,

stromms@... writes:

People who learn two spoken languages are

able to separate them because of some technical way the brain works

which my daughter has explained to me but I can't recall. In the same

way, a " speaker " of ASL and English would be able to separate them.

I suppose she could explain why I now completely meld together French and

Spanish. After 20+ years of not using either very much, I now completely mix

them. It's actually quite ridiculous.

I was conversationally fluent in Spanish when I became an exchange student.

So, where did they send me? Belgium. I learned to speak Belgian French by

almost pure emersion. For a while I could do either, now, 2-+ years later I can

translate what I hear into English but not speak either very well ... I am

hopelessly confused.

Best -- Jill

[Guest guest]

SEE is not a language, it is to ASL like " pidgin " is to spoken English.

Pidgin is not bad English, but would sound like baby talk to a native

speaker. This is not a judgement on any language, but according to my

linguist daughter.

Signing Exact English

Thank you to those who wrote back about CX26. I guess

overall it

matters very little what the prognosis is and only matters what

actually happens and how we deal with it.

Speaking of how we deal – my plan has been to use ASL and speech

with my son. This was an important and difficult decision that we

came to because our school is Oral and strongly discouraged

signing. However, I did a lot of research and determined this was

the right plan for our family.

NOW, the ECI contact from our school district has told us that they

use SEE (Signing Exact English) in our district and she would be

able to come to our house and provide additional resources for SEE –

but not ASL. I feel our hands are tied for the short term because

we definitely want to be able to use the school's resources and if

they only provide SEE then Donovan will need to know SEE. So I

suppose we will have to do SEE and speech. Then after he is up and

running with speaking, and reading, and using SEE we can send him to

ASL camp or something. . .

Anyways, I am rambling, but my real question is: does anyone have

experience with SEE? Or SEE versus ASL?

Thank you for your help,

Emylie

Mother of Kaiden – 6, Hearing and Donovan, 7mos, Moderate Hearing

Loss

________________________________________________________________________

Check out AOL.com today. Breaking news, video search, pictures, email

and IM. All on demand. Always Free.

[Guest guest]

SEE is not a language, it is to ASL like " pidgin " is to spoken English.

Pidgin is not bad English, but would sound like baby talk to a native

speaker. This is not a judgement on any language, but according to my

linguist daughter.

Signing Exact English

Thank you to those who wrote back about CX26. I guess

overall it

matters very little what the prognosis is and only matters what

actually happens and how we deal with it.

Speaking of how we deal – my plan has been to use ASL and speech

with my son. This was an important and difficult decision that we

came to because our school is Oral and strongly discouraged

signing. However, I did a lot of research and determined this was

the right plan for our family.

NOW, the ECI contact from our school district has told us that they

use SEE (Signing Exact English) in our district and she would be

able to come to our house and provide additional resources for SEE –

but not ASL. I feel our hands are tied for the short term because

we definitely want to be able to use the school's resources and if

they only provide SEE then Donovan will need to know SEE. So I

suppose we will have to do SEE and speech. Then after he is up and

running with speaking, and reading, and using SEE we can send him to

ASL camp or something. . .

Anyways, I am rambling, but my real question is: does anyone have

experience with SEE? Or SEE versus ASL?

Thank you for your help,

Emylie

Mother of Kaiden – 6, Hearing and Donovan, 7mos, Moderate Hearing

Loss

________________________________________________________________________

Check out AOL.com today. Breaking news, video search, pictures, email

and IM. All on demand. Always Free.

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 7/6/2006 6:18:40 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,

stromms@... writes:

If you're looking for research to bolster your case, I'd try

linguistics sources rather than speech/language. My linguist daughter

and her friends are shocked by some of the information I have told

them that I have heard or read by the latter. Linguists have been doing

research in this area for years. They have also been surprised by some

speech teaching techniques. Apparently some of these seem primitive,

given what is known to linguists.

,

Sounds like your daughter has a built-in source for new research and papers

to publish!

-- Jill

[Guest guest]

Emylie,

Will your son be in a self contained SEE using class or will he be mainstreamed

with an interpreter? If it is the interpreter, you may be able to make the case

for ASL being the mode of communication you have chosen and he is using. I

think there was a law case about that in Florida a number of years ago. Parents

wanted a certain type of sign and the school refused to provide it and the

school lost!

[Guest guest]

Emylie,

Will your son be in a self contained SEE using class or will he be mainstreamed

with an interpreter? If it is the interpreter, you may be able to make the case

for ASL being the mode of communication you have chosen and he is using. I

think there was a law case about that in Florida a number of years ago. Parents

wanted a certain type of sign and the school refused to provide it and the

school lost!

[Guest guest]

Emylie,

Will your son be in a self contained SEE using class or will he be mainstreamed

with an interpreter? If it is the interpreter, you may be able to make the case

for ASL being the mode of communication you have chosen and he is using. I

think there was a law case about that in Florida a number of years ago. Parents

wanted a certain type of sign and the school refused to provide it and the

school lost!

[Guest guest]

Using ASL and speech would be kind of difficult wouldn't it? I am not an

expert here so please don't think I'm opposing anything, but ASL is so

different structurally than English, isn't it?

Our church's interpreter uses ASL, and she has a really hard time with

one of our deaf daughters because she is very English. She usually has to

change to a more pidgeon sign when signing for our daughters because of

their good hearing with their C.I.'s.

Just a thought....... Tish

Signing Exact English

Thank you to those who wrote back about CX26. I guess

overall it

matters very little what the prognosis is and only matters what

actually happens and how we deal with it.

Speaking of how we deal – my plan has been to use ASL and speech

with my son. This was an important and difficult decision that we

came to because our school is Oral and strongly discouraged

signing. However, I did a lot of research and determined this was

the right plan for our family.

NOW, the ECI contact from our school district has told us that they

use SEE (Signing Exact English) in our district and she would be

able to come to our house and provide additional resources for SEE –

but not ASL. I feel our hands are tied for the short term because

we definitely want to be able to use the school's resources and if

they only provide SEE then Donovan will need to know SEE. So I

suppose we will have to do SEE and speech. Then after he is up and

running with speaking, and reading, and using SEE we can send him to

ASL camp or something. . .

Anyways, I am rambling, but my real question is: does anyone have

experience with SEE? Or SEE versus ASL?

Thank you for your help,

Emylie

Mother of Kaiden – 6, Hearing and Donovan, 7mos, Moderate Hearing

Loss

________________________________________________________________________

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[Guest guest]

Using ASL and speech would be kind of difficult wouldn't it? I am not an

expert here so please don't think I'm opposing anything, but ASL is so

different structurally than English, isn't it?

Our church's interpreter uses ASL, and she has a really hard time with

one of our deaf daughters because she is very English. She usually has to

change to a more pidgeon sign when signing for our daughters because of

their good hearing with their C.I.'s.

Just a thought....... Tish

Signing Exact English

Thank you to those who wrote back about CX26. I guess

overall it

matters very little what the prognosis is and only matters what

actually happens and how we deal with it.

Speaking of how we deal – my plan has been to use ASL and speech

with my son. This was an important and difficult decision that we

came to because our school is Oral and strongly discouraged

signing. However, I did a lot of research and determined this was

the right plan for our family.

NOW, the ECI contact from our school district has told us that they

use SEE (Signing Exact English) in our district and she would be

able to come to our house and provide additional resources for SEE –

but not ASL. I feel our hands are tied for the short term because

we definitely want to be able to use the school's resources and if

they only provide SEE then Donovan will need to know SEE. So I

suppose we will have to do SEE and speech. Then after he is up and

running with speaking, and reading, and using SEE we can send him to

ASL camp or something. . .

Anyways, I am rambling, but my real question is: does anyone have

experience with SEE? Or SEE versus ASL?

Thank you for your help,

Emylie

Mother of Kaiden – 6, Hearing and Donovan, 7mos, Moderate Hearing

Loss

________________________________________________________________________

Check out AOL.com today. Breaking news, video search, pictures, email

and IM. All on demand. Always Free.

All messages posted to this list are private and confidential. Each post is

the intellectual property of the author and therefore subject to copyright

restrictions.

[Guest guest]

Using ASL and speech would be kind of difficult wouldn't it? I am not an

expert here so please don't think I'm opposing anything, but ASL is so

different structurally than English, isn't it?

Our church's interpreter uses ASL, and she has a really hard time with

one of our deaf daughters because she is very English. She usually has to

change to a more pidgeon sign when signing for our daughters because of

their good hearing with their C.I.'s.

Just a thought....... Tish

Signing Exact English

Thank you to those who wrote back about CX26. I guess

overall it

matters very little what the prognosis is and only matters what

actually happens and how we deal with it.

Speaking of how we deal – my plan has been to use ASL and speech

with my son. This was an important and difficult decision that we

came to because our school is Oral and strongly discouraged

signing. However, I did a lot of research and determined this was

the right plan for our family.

NOW, the ECI contact from our school district has told us that they

use SEE (Signing Exact English) in our district and she would be

able to come to our house and provide additional resources for SEE –

but not ASL. I feel our hands are tied for the short term because

we definitely want to be able to use the school's resources and if

they only provide SEE then Donovan will need to know SEE. So I

suppose we will have to do SEE and speech. Then after he is up and

running with speaking, and reading, and using SEE we can send him to

ASL camp or something. . .

Anyways, I am rambling, but my real question is: does anyone have

experience with SEE? Or SEE versus ASL?

Thank you for your help,

Emylie

Mother of Kaiden – 6, Hearing and Donovan, 7mos, Moderate Hearing

Loss

________________________________________________________________________

Check out AOL.com today. Breaking news, video search, pictures, email

and IM. All on demand. Always Free.

All messages posted to this list are private and confidential. Each post is

the intellectual property of the author and therefore subject to copyright

restrictions.

[Guest guest]

Signing Exact English

>

>>

>Speaking of how we deal – my plan has been to use ASL and speech

>with my son. This was an important and difficult decision that we

>came to because our school is Oral and strongly discouraged

>signing. However, I did a lot of research and determined this was

>the right plan for our family.

>

>Emylie, you have made a choice that the " experts " or professionals find hard

to understand. If you look at the 5 modes of communication, they are on a

spectrum from auditory to visual. 1. Auditory verbal is pure auditory. 2.

Auditory-Oral is alot auditory but uses natural gestures, 3. then cued speech

is a combination of listening and lip reading with visual " cues " added to

clarify the lip reading which is also visual. 4. Then comes Sim/Com or TC

(speech with English signing at the same time.) 5. Then the most visual and

non-auditory is ASL. (You can't sign ASL and speak English at the same time

because it is two different languages.) Now that so many newborns are being

diagnosed, some parents are opting for kids learning speech via auditory verbal

or oral and sign via ASL. Basically teaching the child two separate languages

at the same time using two sensory modes. (This is pretty different - Not any

research to back this up yet. It never occurred to the professionals to try

this, because they looked at them (1/2 and 5) as contradictory to each other.

You and other parents are thinking outside the box, and who knows, you could

be right! Remember professionals built the Titanic but a family built the ark!

You've also made a choice that goes against conventional thinking about the

audiogram. Most people would recommend auditory oral or verbal for a child with

moderate loss. Mostly because they can learn alot auditorially because they

have a lot of residual hearing. Especially with early diagnosis and

intervention. (For instance, my daughter hasn't NEEDED sign, she has a

mod-severe loss. She is mainstreamed and always has been and has done well in

school, definitely kept up with her peers. She received " late intervention "

after being diagnosed at almost 4. So for us it was more important that she

learn the rest of spoken English that she had missed rather than add a second

language. We'd like to learn sign but there aren't any resources in our area -

and we have looked! So if we NEEDED sign we'd be in a pickle! ) We'd like to

learn sign, but I'd want to learn ASL not SEE. When we visit our older

daughter in DC, my HOH daughter gets people signing to her when they see her

hearing aids. There is a big Deaf community in DC. She says this makes her

mad. She doesn't consider herself " deaf " she just wears hearing aids! Also,

she feels like she looks stupid because she knows no sign. So it is sort of a

double standard she has!

So all that to say two things. I think what you are saying is that you want

choice #1 or #2 (oral/verbal) plus choice @5 ASL. They are offering you choice

#4. There is a big difference between a combo of 1/2 plus 5 and choice #4.

Choice #4 was invented back in the 60's when there was a rubella outbreak and

lots of kids born with severe to profound deafness. They thought it would give

kids the best of both worlds. But statistics have not shown that to be true. It

IS true for some kids, but it's not a good one size fits all answer. However

it is the predominant choice offered by public schools. Most deaf and HOH kids

are educated in public schools. ANd if you follow that out, most of those kids

score on testing much much lower than hearing kids. NOt because they aren't as

smart, but because the TC programs in many public schools have low expectations

and they keep on doing the same thing over and over even though it hasn't

necessarily worked in the past. One of the members that used to be on this

list calls it the dirty little secret of deaf education. (She's an ASL

interpreter and her daughter attended Gallaudet) You can read in the group

archives about test scores. Also, one of the Australian states did a recent

study involving their entire population of kids with hearing losses and they

scored 1-2 or more standard deviations below typically hearing kids. (If you

dont' know about standard deviations yet, 2 standard deviations below the norm

for IQ is the cut off for " mental retardation " . Not to say those kids are

retarded but their academic test scores are that low!) I don't know what is the

predominant method used in that Australian state however.

First, if you want to learn ASL, and I see now you are in Early INtervention

not school, stick to your guns! They are supposed to provide what your family

needs and what YOU CHOOSE as best for your family, not what they already have.

So you might ask for a Deaf mentor and ASL training for the family -then the

baby learns ASL from you just like he would if you were Deaf. And they can

separately provide auditory learning and talking with choice 1/2. Then when

school rolls around, you will have more choices to make. They may still only

offer choice #4. Or he may no longer be eligible for special ed because he does

so well. Or you may decide you want mainstream with an interpreter or even a

school for the deaf. But you dont' have to make those decisions yet, Because in

the next 2-3 years your child will teach you what works best for him! Some kids

are inherently more verbal some are more visual. He could be truly bilingual

with ASL and spoken language. Being bilingual is a great gift- my oldest child

was bilingual English and German and it has enriched her life and language

learning abilities so much. You will also see if your child loses more hearing

over the next few years. But if you have decided what is best for your family

and your child for right now, I say go for it. Your school can contract for

whatever services you need, they won't want to do it, but the law says they

have to. They may fight you. You may win, you may lose. You might find a more

win win solution than using just their services. You may use them for option 1/2

and get #5 from another source like a Deaf/HOH agency that would provide a Deaf

tutor/mentor. So keep on thinking outside the box. Kids don't usually do well

inside boxes long term! You may have a little struggle if you don't simply

accept what they offer you, but most parents find that what the schools offer

you is not usually all that your child needs.

[Guest guest]

Signing Exact English

>

>>

>Speaking of how we deal – my plan has been to use ASL and speech

>with my son. This was an important and difficult decision that we

>came to because our school is Oral and strongly discouraged

>signing. However, I did a lot of research and determined this was

>the right plan for our family.

>

>Emylie, you have made a choice that the " experts " or professionals find hard

to understand. If you look at the 5 modes of communication, they are on a

spectrum from auditory to visual. 1. Auditory verbal is pure auditory. 2.

Auditory-Oral is alot auditory but uses natural gestures, 3. then cued speech

is a combination of listening and lip reading with visual " cues " added to

clarify the lip reading which is also visual. 4. Then comes Sim/Com or TC

(speech with English signing at the same time.) 5. Then the most visual and

non-auditory is ASL. (You can't sign ASL and speak English at the same time

because it is two different languages.) Now that so many newborns are being

diagnosed, some parents are opting for kids learning speech via auditory verbal

or oral and sign via ASL. Basically teaching the child two separate languages

at the same time using two sensory modes. (This is pretty different - Not any

research to back this up yet. It never occurred to the professionals to try

this, because they looked at them (1/2 and 5) as contradictory to each other.

You and other parents are thinking outside the box, and who knows, you could

be right! Remember professionals built the Titanic but a family built the ark!

You've also made a choice that goes against conventional thinking about the

audiogram. Most people would recommend auditory oral or verbal for a child with

moderate loss. Mostly because they can learn alot auditorially because they

have a lot of residual hearing. Especially with early diagnosis and

intervention. (For instance, my daughter hasn't NEEDED sign, she has a

mod-severe loss. She is mainstreamed and always has been and has done well in

school, definitely kept up with her peers. She received " late intervention "

after being diagnosed at almost 4. So for us it was more important that she

learn the rest of spoken English that she had missed rather than add a second

language. We'd like to learn sign but there aren't any resources in our area -

and we have looked! So if we NEEDED sign we'd be in a pickle! ) We'd like to

learn sign, but I'd want to learn ASL not SEE. When we visit our older

daughter in DC, my HOH daughter gets people signing to her when they see her

hearing aids. There is a big Deaf community in DC. She says this makes her

mad. She doesn't consider herself " deaf " she just wears hearing aids! Also,

she feels like she looks stupid because she knows no sign. So it is sort of a

double standard she has!

So all that to say two things. I think what you are saying is that you want

choice #1 or #2 (oral/verbal) plus choice @5 ASL. They are offering you choice

#4. There is a big difference between a combo of 1/2 plus 5 and choice #4.

Choice #4 was invented back in the 60's when there was a rubella outbreak and

lots of kids born with severe to profound deafness. They thought it would give

kids the best of both worlds. But statistics have not shown that to be true. It

IS true for some kids, but it's not a good one size fits all answer. However

it is the predominant choice offered by public schools. Most deaf and HOH kids

are educated in public schools. ANd if you follow that out, most of those kids

score on testing much much lower than hearing kids. NOt because they aren't as

smart, but because the TC programs in many public schools have low expectations

and they keep on doing the same thing over and over even though it hasn't

necessarily worked in the past. One of the members that used to be on this

list calls it the dirty little secret of deaf education. (She's an ASL

interpreter and her daughter attended Gallaudet) You can read in the group

archives about test scores. Also, one of the Australian states did a recent

study involving their entire population of kids with hearing losses and they

scored 1-2 or more standard deviations below typically hearing kids. (If you

dont' know about standard deviations yet, 2 standard deviations below the norm

for IQ is the cut off for " mental retardation " . Not to say those kids are

retarded but their academic test scores are that low!) I don't know what is the

predominant method used in that Australian state however.

First, if you want to learn ASL, and I see now you are in Early INtervention

not school, stick to your guns! They are supposed to provide what your family

needs and what YOU CHOOSE as best for your family, not what they already have.

So you might ask for a Deaf mentor and ASL training for the family -then the

baby learns ASL from you just like he would if you were Deaf. And they can

separately provide auditory learning and talking with choice 1/2. Then when

school rolls around, you will have more choices to make. They may still only

offer choice #4. Or he may no longer be eligible for special ed because he does

so well. Or you may decide you want mainstream with an interpreter or even a

school for the deaf. But you dont' have to make those decisions yet, Because in

the next 2-3 years your child will teach you what works best for him! Some kids

are inherently more verbal some are more visual. He could be truly bilingual

with ASL and spoken language. Being bilingual is a great gift- my oldest child

was bilingual English and German and it has enriched her life and language

learning abilities so much. You will also see if your child loses more hearing

over the next few years. But if you have decided what is best for your family

and your child for right now, I say go for it. Your school can contract for

whatever services you need, they won't want to do it, but the law says they

have to. They may fight you. You may win, you may lose. You might find a more

win win solution than using just their services. You may use them for option 1/2

and get #5 from another source like a Deaf/HOH agency that would provide a Deaf

tutor/mentor. So keep on thinking outside the box. Kids don't usually do well

inside boxes long term! You may have a little struggle if you don't simply

accept what they offer you, but most parents find that what the schools offer

you is not usually all that your child needs.

[Guest guest]

Signing Exact English

>

>>

>Speaking of how we deal – my plan has been to use ASL and speech

>with my son. This was an important and difficult decision that we

>came to because our school is Oral and strongly discouraged

>signing. However, I did a lot of research and determined this was

>the right plan for our family.

>

>Emylie, you have made a choice that the " experts " or professionals find hard

to understand. If you look at the 5 modes of communication, they are on a

spectrum from auditory to visual. 1. Auditory verbal is pure auditory. 2.

Auditory-Oral is alot auditory but uses natural gestures, 3. then cued speech

is a combination of listening and lip reading with visual " cues " added to

clarify the lip reading which is also visual. 4. Then comes Sim/Com or TC

(speech with English signing at the same time.) 5. Then the most visual and

non-auditory is ASL. (You can't sign ASL and speak English at the same time

because it is two different languages.) Now that so many newborns are being

diagnosed, some parents are opting for kids learning speech via auditory verbal

or oral and sign via ASL. Basically teaching the child two separate languages

at the same time using two sensory modes. (This is pretty different - Not any

research to back this up yet. It never occurred to the professionals to try

this, because they looked at them (1/2 and 5) as contradictory to each other.

You and other parents are thinking outside the box, and who knows, you could

be right! Remember professionals built the Titanic but a family built the ark!

You've also made a choice that goes against conventional thinking about the

audiogram. Most people would recommend auditory oral or verbal for a child with

moderate loss. Mostly because they can learn alot auditorially because they

have a lot of residual hearing. Especially with early diagnosis and

intervention. (For instance, my daughter hasn't NEEDED sign, she has a

mod-severe loss. She is mainstreamed and always has been and has done well in

school, definitely kept up with her peers. She received " late intervention "

after being diagnosed at almost 4. So for us it was more important that she

learn the rest of spoken English that she had missed rather than add a second

language. We'd like to learn sign but there aren't any resources in our area -

and we have looked! So if we NEEDED sign we'd be in a pickle! ) We'd like to

learn sign, but I'd want to learn ASL not SEE. When we visit our older

daughter in DC, my HOH daughter gets people signing to her when they see her

hearing aids. There is a big Deaf community in DC. She says this makes her

mad. She doesn't consider herself " deaf " she just wears hearing aids! Also,

she feels like she looks stupid because she knows no sign. So it is sort of a

double standard she has!

So all that to say two things. I think what you are saying is that you want

choice #1 or #2 (oral/verbal) plus choice @5 ASL. They are offering you choice

#4. There is a big difference between a combo of 1/2 plus 5 and choice #4.

Choice #4 was invented back in the 60's when there was a rubella outbreak and

lots of kids born with severe to profound deafness. They thought it would give

kids the best of both worlds. But statistics have not shown that to be true. It

IS true for some kids, but it's not a good one size fits all answer. However

it is the predominant choice offered by public schools. Most deaf and HOH kids

are educated in public schools. ANd if you follow that out, most of those kids

score on testing much much lower than hearing kids. NOt because they aren't as

smart, but because the TC programs in many public schools have low expectations

and they keep on doing the same thing over and over even though it hasn't

necessarily worked in the past. One of the members that used to be on this

list calls it the dirty little secret of deaf education. (She's an ASL

interpreter and her daughter attended Gallaudet) You can read in the group

archives about test scores. Also, one of the Australian states did a recent

study involving their entire population of kids with hearing losses and they

scored 1-2 or more standard deviations below typically hearing kids. (If you

dont' know about standard deviations yet, 2 standard deviations below the norm

for IQ is the cut off for " mental retardation " . Not to say those kids are

retarded but their academic test scores are that low!) I don't know what is the

predominant method used in that Australian state however.

First, if you want to learn ASL, and I see now you are in Early INtervention

not school, stick to your guns! They are supposed to provide what your family

needs and what YOU CHOOSE as best for your family, not what they already have.

So you might ask for a Deaf mentor and ASL training for the family -then the

baby learns ASL from you just like he would if you were Deaf. And they can

separately provide auditory learning and talking with choice 1/2. Then when

school rolls around, you will have more choices to make. They may still only

offer choice #4. Or he may no longer be eligible for special ed because he does

so well. Or you may decide you want mainstream with an interpreter or even a

school for the deaf. But you dont' have to make those decisions yet, Because in

the next 2-3 years your child will teach you what works best for him! Some kids

are inherently more verbal some are more visual. He could be truly bilingual

with ASL and spoken language. Being bilingual is a great gift- my oldest child

was bilingual English and German and it has enriched her life and language

learning abilities so much. You will also see if your child loses more hearing

over the next few years. But if you have decided what is best for your family

and your child for right now, I say go for it. Your school can contract for

whatever services you need, they won't want to do it, but the law says they

have to. They may fight you. You may win, you may lose. You might find a more

win win solution than using just their services. You may use them for option 1/2

and get #5 from another source like a Deaf/HOH agency that would provide a Deaf

tutor/mentor. So keep on thinking outside the box. Kids don't usually do well

inside boxes long term! You may have a little struggle if you don't simply

accept what they offer you, but most parents find that what the schools offer

you is not usually all that your child needs.

[Guest guest]

Linguistically, ASL is a language in itself, which is why, for example,

schools give credit for learning it, like French or Japanese. Learning

it is like learning any language in terms of stimulating or calling up

different parts of the brain. Learning it also requires the same

commitment as any language. People who learn two spoken languages are

able to separate them because of some technical way the brain works

which my daughter has explained to me but I can't recall. In the same

way, a " speaker " of ASL and English would be able to separate them.

Re: Signing Exact English

Using ASL and speech would be kind of difficult wouldn't it?

I am not an

expert here so please don't think I'm opposing anything, but ASL is so

different structurally than English, isn't it?

Our church's interpreter uses ASL, and she has a really hard time with

one of our deaf daughters because she is very English. She usually has

to

change to a more pidgeon sign when signing for our daughters because

of

their good hearing with their C.I.'s.

Just a thought....... Tish

Re: Signing Exact English

________________________________________________________________________

Check out AOL.com today. Breaking news, video search, pictures, email

and IM. All on demand. Always Free.