Re: Re: Tragic story about a two year old-Scooby

[Guest guest]

“Please do share before and after stories of how ABA has helped

because I agree the focus has not been too positive and I agree that

isn't fair. For those children that do need ABA of course I

appreciate it has been a lifesaver. We don't hear that side and of

course nobody is stopping anyone from sharing it.”

I posted days ago that I have a positive experience with ABA. My son “just”

has apraxia.

Giseli (mom of Igor – 5 years – doing great!)

_____

From:

[mailto: ] On Behalf Of kiddietalk

Sent: Friday, February 03, 2006 5:43 PM

Subject: [ ] Re: Tragic story about a two year old-Scooby

nobody really owns a grouplist unless it's the majority of

the people's opinions that post you want to count.

If 100 people are on a grouplist and 95 of them want to talk about

how sunlight helps their children make vitamin D, and the other 5

say sunlight isn't healthy because it causes sunburn -the focus may

appear to be positive to sunlight. Further discussion may provide

insight to the 95% that too much of a good thing may be unhealthy -

and may make the 5% aware that sunlight can be good in moderation.

Too much water you drown as they say. I wouldn't write about ABA

other than what I have because I have no personal experience with

it. I do know it's pushed on many children that don't need it that

are misdiagnosed with " PDD NOS " and then off course if it's " PDD

NOS " then ABA has to be the way to treat it.

Jeannie Buesser who posts all the time has one child with apraxia

and one with autism. A now famous here quote from her is the

following " No matter how much speech therapy I give Josh it won't

help him talk -he needs ABA, and no matter how much ABA I gave Adam

it wouldn't help him talk, and it would frustrate him more -he needs

speech therapy "

I can acknowledge that fish oil doesn't work for all of our

children -just as I'm sure you can acknowledge that ABA isn't

appropriate for all children. We've have ABA therapists who are

part of this group who have said that (some with apraxic children by

the way who will be the first to tell you that ABA isn't right for

most apraxic children) So why so defensive guys? If speech therapy

doesn't work for autism -pure autism...then why should ABA work for

apraxia? It's not competitive -it's just using the right therapy

for that particular child. Did anyone say " don't try ABA " No -the

message is proceed with caution -and why? Again because just

recently and over and over in the archives parents have posted

horror stories about how it does and can negatively affect a child

it's not appropriate for. It is the 'only' therapy I know of like

this. You use speech therapy on an autistic child and it won't hurt

them -just won't help them (if they don't have a coexisting speech issue)

Please do share before and after stories of how ABA has helped

because I agree the focus has not been too positive and I agree that

isn't fair. For those children that do need ABA of course I

appreciate it has been a lifesaver. We don't hear that side and of

course nobody is stopping anyone from sharing it.

Posting about an ABA therapist who had a prior history of child

abuse who was still working 2 years later as an ABA therapist when

she is charged with killing a 2 year old is not an attack on ABA.

If it bothers you or anyone that much that I posted it -then perhaps

you need to explain why. If someone posted about a speech therapist

charged with child abuse 2 years ago that is today charged with

killing a 2 year old I would be angry and shocked and looking for

answers as to how that happened -not angry, shocked, and looking for

answers as to why the person posted the article here! I mean to me

it's obvious why I did.

No I don't agree this is an autism thing or an apraxia thing fight.

I admire Sallie Bernard and love sharing views with her and she is

on the board for Cure Autism Now. I have friends with autistic and

apraxic and ADHD and late talker and " normal " children. On the

board for CHERAB and Speechville Jeannie Buesser has a child with

autism and another with apraxia and Tricia Morin has a son diagnosed

with PDD and apraxia. I see lots of overlaps but I also see where

things can't overlap. ABA is one of them. We need to look at each

child and do what is right for him or her.

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[Guest guest]

>Then again I don't know of many apraxic children who need therapy for social

>language.

I think this is probably true for purely apraxic children, but if there is

something else in addition to apraxia (CAPD, recep lang issues, etc) I

think some social language help may be needed.

I think /very heavily modified/ ABA helped my son some with social verbal

communication. When it wasn't frustrating him, especially initially when

the therapist's demands weren't as high, the praise he got for verbal

attempts and the cool toys he got to explore encouraged him to try a little

harder. I also think my son needs some help with social language because

in addition to verbal dyspraxia he also has receptive delays. He doesn't

understand the questions so he is more behind in verbal social

interactions. The repetitive nature of the therapy his second therapist

used helped him understand certain questions. She backed up the verbal

questions with some signs, lots of gestures and real objects until he

understood what was being asked. I still use some of her techniques with

him at home. I'm not really sure if the techniques that worked were the

ABA ones or the adapted ones. Some his speech therapist uses in sessions

too, so I think the stuff that worked was more the non-ABA stuff.

>I have to wonder what this particular ABA therapist is

>doing that is so different than the majority Seems like you (for

>lack of better words) lucked out.

I can say that the autism therapist who helped my son some was partially

lucking out. Personality wise the two of them just clicked and I think

with my son that is more important in some ways than skill. (I've

mentioned before he spoke more and tried harder for his awesome

cranial-sacral/OT therapist than for any other therapist that he worked

with before Prompt.) The autism therapist heavily modified her typical ABA

style to my son. She realized from the start that strictly followed ABA

was not going to work for him. I'm still hesitant about ABA for /my/ child

(and he does have an autism diagnosis as well, although currently everyone

is questioning it. We have questioned it all along.) My son was supposed

to continue therapies with this therapist this school year and I had some

concerns. She really didn't understand apraxia and seemed to ignore me

when I said, " He CAN'T say that now. Please accept his gesture or

approximation! " That IS communication after all! I was going to ask for

some co-treating session with this therapist and his speech therapist so

apraxia could be better explained, but the schools haven't complied with

our IEP so we haven't had a chance to co-treat yet. I did provide her with

lots of materials on apraxia and I don't know if she read or understands it

yet. My son is the first time she's ever seen someone with verbal

dyspraxia and she worked with him prior to that diagnosis, although he had

a neurologist state apraxia as one of the possibilities and I highly

suspected it and tried to explained what it was to her.

One thing I have heard several different places is that VBA therapy can

help apraxic kids. Anyone heard something similar? Unfortunately I know

of no therapists who do it in my parts so I have no first hand experience.

Miche

[Guest guest]

hi ,

its chris rome, I am a trained ABA therapist with about 10 years experience.

I work mostly with children who have autism/PDD but most were apraxic as well.

and of course my son who right now is diagnosed with apraxia. Before I stayed

out of the conversation of ABA because its " seemed " like a touchy subject. Its

something you have to see, when it is done right. I would like to invite you to

sit on one of my sessions. You live in NYC right? if you have the time (do any

of us do?) LOL....

I am one of those modified therapists. once you have the fundamentals of ABA

and have some experience with it you can go wild with fun activities.

The way I explain ABA is that its a scientific way to record behavior. an

example is that trials are used to get a % of correct answers. how you get the

correct anwsers is up to you, you can use knee to knee or you can stand on your

head....LOL

its behavior intervention, it tells you to pay attention to the behavior of

the child and record it. its makes teachers accountable, they written proof

that this causes that.

if you would like me to answer any of those questions, please let me know.

and I really feel like you have to see it in action. My agency has a NYC

office, I could see if you sit with therapist in NYC if you would like.

Your a person who seeks answers and are passionate about children and I admire

that. you do things that you don't have to do. thanks for being such a good

person

chris

[Guest guest]

well as any good therapist would ask... what would you like to teach the child.

with most of children who had autism/PDD the speech programs were specific to

their apraxia. we would start with sounds (consonants and vowels), combinations

of sounds (consonant/vowels, vowel/consonants). we would even brake down indiv

sounds like /y/ to wwwwaaaaaeeeeeee or wwwww aaaaathe child says it then eeee

the child says it.as far as the enviornment I would do when we were dancing,

jumping on the trampline any situation that they weren't pressured to do it.

reinforcement would be anything that is hugh for them. most of the time it was

me throwing them in the air, tickling them NOT always food. I tried to get away

from food as much as I can. they should want to please me not a person giving

them food for right responses. its more social to be happy that i am verbally

praising or hugs or throwing in the air.

another thing is with ABA is that the child should want to be around the

teacher and seek the teacher out NOT to run away as soon as work is done with

reinforcement phrases such as " go play " . I would say that to my little guys and

they would stay there wanting to do more(sometimes i had to push them out of the

chair because i had to do the data or get another thing set up) so cute my

little guys. this behavior is what makes a good teacher that they stay and want

to do work with you.

another lesson is writing- you guys get writing sheets from school to practice

A well that is data based you give them a + or a - or a P for each letter is

written. + is it done right - not done right P is prompted(you helped him write

the letter).

I hope I helped any more questions just let me know.

chris

[Guest guest]

as a question of curiosity how often do you hear of therapists who

use ABA, but really aren't doing it right? Are there any certifications

that someone can undergo to be qualified to administer ABA? Is there a

database for parents to find qualified therapists?

Miche

At 12:25 PM 2/4/2006, you wrote:

>hi ,

> its chris rome, I am a trained ABA therapist with about 10 years

> experience.

[Guest guest]

miche,

yes but they aren't official. for example my agency will expect any new

therapist starting the agency to go to a full day aba training. My masters

kinda certifies me as ABA therapist I got special ed masters but an extra paper

stating that I consentrated on autism/Pdd. all my specialized classes were on

autism instead of the all the different disabilities that could be taught. you

can get your doctuate in ABA too. its from the Psychology dept, I forget what

the offical name of it is.

sorry I do not know of a data base but agency who give us our teachers and

SPL's should have a good list of good therapist. any Autism/PDD school, I know

we have school's named DDI which unfortunatley the teacher aren't paid that well

(long story) and they need extra work so do ABA on the side.

chris

Grassia <miche@...> wrote:

as a question of curiosity how often do you hear of therapists who

use ABA, but really aren't doing it right? Are there any certifications

that someone can undergo to be qualified to administer ABA? Is there a

database for parents to find qualified therapists?

Miche

At 12:25 PM 2/4/2006, you wrote:

>hi ,

> its chris rome, I am a trained ABA therapist with about 10 years

> experience.

[Guest guest]

hi lisa,

I hope I replied to this email as well with other I wrote. if not let me

know. thanks for the positive comments. they mean a lot.

Its not my agency, its the agency I work for. " Bilinguals Inc " yea florida is

really far behind with ABA. and look at the social services for children, its

criminal what they are doing to kids who need help there. so sad.

oh yes I will answer those questions in as soon as I can with spell check and

everything, my aunt also threw up when she saw my writing.... she's like so

embarrassed with my spelling and so am I.... LOL

I also want to really pay attention and give some back up articles to help

make the point maybe even real data I used with a child.

thanks again for this opportunity.

kiddietalk <kiddietalk@...> wrote:

you are a perfect parent/professional to help us put together

a " how to use modified ABA with an apraxic child " webpage together

with the information we already have from Gisele.

I could be wrong but didn't your child formally have a diagnosis of

PDD as well as apraxia? Is the PDD diagnosis now removed? Just

curious -have you personally worked with children that had no

behavior issues -just a speech impairment/motor planning

impairment?

I'd love to watch you in action during therapy (standing on your

head and all!) but I moved to Florida a few years ago from New

Jersey and am only in the NY area a few times a year now. Dr.

Marilyn Agin my co author of The Late Talker is in the Tribeca area

of NYC. Is your practice around that area -or further uptown?

When you have a moment can you answer the questions I posted prior:

How do you believe behavioral therapy can best help a child with a

motor planning disorder who desperately wants to do things on

command but can't?

How do you vary your approach while working with a child with autism

vs. a child who is not autistic but just apraxic?

Typically during therapy if you notice an apraxic child is becoming

frustrated how do you handle that?

Don't have to answer the reading one since that's not an ABA

program...but if you don't mind could you please address the topic

that's touchy. Why in your opinion is the overwhelming majority of

experiences in this group for those who have children without

autism/PDD/or behavioral problems -expressing negative experiences

with ABA therapy on a child with just apraxia? Is it because of

lack of awareness about what apraxia is -a motor planning disorder?

I mean we all use some sort of behavioral techniques in life and

work, all therapists, teachers, spouses, salespeople, neighbors,

friends, relatives, children, parents, brothers, sisters (you get

the point) use rewards and motivations or punishments and

disciplines to some degree to get what they want -but that doesn't

make them all ABA therapists, or right.

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