Guest guest Posted January 22, 2007 Report Share Posted January 22, 2007 If the patient wants to jump, let him jump. If a medic locks the doors and the patient cannot get out the patient could potentially turn on the medic. A medic is unable to stop the patient from jumping. Any physical contact between the care giver and the patient without the patients permission makes for a precarious legal situation. Getting physical i.e. tackling or physically restraining a patient who is combative is not a good answer. Ask the driver of the ambulance to slow down as quickly as possible and try to make the patients landing a little easier. If the patient then becomes unconscious...you have implied consent. ________________________________________________________________________ Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from across the web, free AOL Mail and more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 22, 2007 Report Share Posted January 22, 2007 " If the patient wants to jump, let him jump. " - I don't think that's exactly the philsophy we want to teach in the classroom. Don >>> 01/22/07 12:55 PM >>> If the patient wants to jump, let him jump. If a medic locks the doors and the patient cannot get out the patient could potentially turn on the medic. A medic is unable to stop the patient from jumping. Any physical contact between the care giver and the patient without the patients permission makes for a precarious legal situation. Getting physical i.e. tackling or physically restraining a patient who is combative is not a good answer. Ask the driver of the ambulance to slow down as quickly as possible and try to make the patients landing a little easier. If the patient then becomes unconscious...you have implied consent. ________________________________________________________________________ Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from across the web, free AOL Mail and more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 22, 2007 Report Share Posted January 22, 2007 I've got an observation about dealing with violent patients. We teach nothing about physical takedowns and restraints in EMS. We do teach how to administer medications, particularly at the intermediate and paramedic levels. Why then, do we insist on using physical restraints first as opposed to using the skills we're actually trained on -- like administering chemical restraint? Seems rather counterintuitive to me. -Wes Ogilvie, MPA, JD, EMT Austin, Texas Re: Man Jumps From Ambulance " If the patient wants to jump, let him jump. " - I don't think that's exactly the philsophy we want to teach in the classroom. Don >>> 01/22/07 12:55 PM >>> If the patient wants to jump, let him jump. If a medic locks the doors and the patient cannot get out the patient could potentially turn on the medic. A medic is unable to stop the patient from jumping. Any physical contact between the care giver and the patient without the patients permission makes for a precarious legal situation. Getting physical i.e. tackling or physically restraining a patient who is combative is not a good answer. Ask the driver of the ambulance to slow down as quickly as possible and try to make the patients landing a little easier. If the patient then becomes unconscious...you have implied consent. __________________________________________________________ Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from across the web, free AOL Mail and more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 22, 2007 Report Share Posted January 22, 2007 Bless the atomizer and vitamin V ht ExLngHrn@... wrote: I've got an observation about dealing with violent patients. We teach nothing about physical takedowns and restraints in EMS. We do teach how to administer medications, particularly at the intermediate and paramedic levels. Why then, do we insist on using physical restraints first as opposed to using the skills we're actually trained on -- like administering chemical restraint? Seems rather counterintuitive to me. -Wes Ogilvie, MPA, JD, EMT Austin, Texas Re: Man Jumps From Ambulance " If the patient wants to jump, let him jump. " - I don't think that's exactly the philsophy we want to teach in the classroom. Don >>> 01/22/07 12:55 PM >>> If the patient wants to jump, let him jump. If a medic locks the doors and the patient cannot get out the patient could potentially turn on the medic. A medic is unable to stop the patient from jumping. Any physical contact between the care giver and the patient without the patients permission makes for a precarious legal situation. Getting physical i.e. tackling or physically restraining a patient who is combative is not a good answer. Ask the driver of the ambulance to slow down as quickly as possible and try to make the patients landing a little easier. If the patient then becomes unconscious...you have implied consent. __________________________________________________________ Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from across the web, free AOL Mail and more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 22, 2007 Report Share Posted January 22, 2007 Mr. Nichkin522, please follow list protocol and sign your post. Now, as a lawyer, I must advise caution to others if tempted to believe your admonition that " if the patient wants to jump, let him jump. " It is common to seek simple solutions to complex problems. Dealing with a patient with behavioral problems is complex. Solutions are not simple. To say that a medic is " unable to stop the patient from jumping " is too broad. The medic has the duty to prevent harm to the patient. With a patient exhibiting behavioral problems, the medic has the duty to do everything reasonable to keep the patient from either hurting himself or others. Therefore, it is too simplistic to say that the medic is unable to stop the patient from jumping. That may, or may not, be true. It is also a misconception that " Any physical contact between the care giver and the patient without the patients permission makes for a precarious legal situation. " When the patient lacks the present mental capacity to care for himself, it is the medic's duty to do everything reasonably possible to prevent harm to the patient, and if that entails physically restraining the patient, that's fine. It is not the law that every unauthorized touching is bad. The law accommodates the facts of the situation. Whether or not to tackle or physically restrain the patient depends upon myriad circumstances. One cannot say as a matter of law that to do so is wrong. In fact, it may indeed be what the law required under the facts of the case. Remember, all cases are unique. Each case has a factual life of its own. Slowing down before the patient is able to jump is reasonable; however, to say that it should be done to " make the patients landing a little easier " is a stretch. The law says that if a risk is reasonably foreseeable, then one who has the power to minimize the risk must do so. That means that a medic has a duty to think ahead of the moment and prepare for extraordinary events such as a patient trying to exit the ambulance. Once aware that the patient is trying to escape, the medic has the duty to do everything reasonable to prevent harm to the patient and to others. What actions are required depend upon the factual situation. But to say that " if the patient wants to jump, let him jump " is too easy. That attitude is sure to get you into court. Gene Gandy, JD, LP > > If the patient wants to jump, let him jump. If a medic locks the doors and > the patient cannot get out the patient could potentially turn on the medic. A > medic is unable to stop the patient from jumping. Any physical contact > between the care giver and the patient without the patients permission makes for a > precarious legal situation. Getting physical i.e. tackling or physically > restraining a patient who is combative is not a good answer. Ask the driver of > the ambulance to slow down as quickly as possible and try to make the patients > landing a little easier. If the patient then becomes unconscious.If the > patient wants to jum > ____________ ________ ________ ________ ________ ________ > Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and security > tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from across the web, free > AOL Mail and more. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 22, 2007 Report Share Posted January 22, 2007 I don't disagree. Our safety is always first. We can only do so much. Once we have done what we can, then whatever happens happens. Gene > > I see your point Gene, but my life is more important > than his. My safety is first. If the guy wants to > jump I am not getting in the way therefore letting him > take me down with him. Now that being said, the > patient should have been restrained to prevent this, > chemically or otherwise. If he gets loose from this > and still jumps, then guess what? I did my part to > restrain him. I think in our area we call PD to > section a patient like this which then puts him under > PD custody. Cuff him to the stretcher with PD right > behnd or in the unit. > Sal Capuchino > EMT-Paramedic > --- wegandy1938@wegandy wrote: > > > Mr. Nichkin522, please follow list protocol and sign > > your post. > > > > Now, as a lawyer, I must advise caution to others if > > tempted to believe your > > admonition that " if the patient wants to jump, let > > him jump. " > > > > It is common to seek simple solutions to complex > > problems. Dealing with a > > patient with behavioral problems is complex. > > Solutions are not simple. > > > > To say that a medic is " unable to stop the patient > > from jumping " is too > > broad. The medic has the duty to prevent harm to > > the patient. With a patient > > exhibiting behavioral problems, the medic has the > > duty to do everything > > reasonable to keep the patient from either hurting > > himself or others. > > > > Therefore, it is too simplistic to say that the > > medic is unable to stop the > > patient from jumping. That may, or may not, be > > true. > > > > It is also a misconception that " Any physical > > contact between the care giver > > and the patient without the patients permission > > makes for a precarious legal > > situation. " When the patient lacks the present > > mental capacity to care for > > himself, it is the medic's duty to do everything > > reasonably possible to prevent > > harm to the patient, and if that entails physically > > restraining the patient, > > that's fine. It is not the law that every > > unauthorized touching is bad. The > > law accommodates the facts of the situation. > > > > Whether or not to tackle or physically restrain the > > patient depends upon > > myriad circumstances. One cannot say as a matter > > of law that to do so is wrong. > > In fact, it may indeed be what the law required > > under the facts of the case. > > Remember, all cases are unique. Each case has a > > factual life of its own. > > > > Slowing down before the patient is able to jump is > > reasonable; however, to > > say that it should be done to " make the patients > > landing a little easier " is a > > stretch. > > > > The law says that if a risk is reasonably > > foreseeable, then one who has the > > power to minimize the risk must do so. That means > > that a medic has a duty to > > think ahead of the moment and prepare for > > extraordinary events such as a > > patient trying to exit the ambulance. Once aware > > that the patient is trying to > > escape, the medic has the duty to do everything > > reasonable to prevent harm to > > the patient and to others. > > > > What actions are required depend upon the factual > > situation. But to say > > that " if the patient wants to jump, let him jump " is > > too easy. That attitude is > > sure to get you into court. > > > > Gene Gandy, JD, LP > > In a message dated 1/22/07 3:28:19 PM, > > Nishkin522@... writes: > > > > > > > > > > If the patient wants to jump, let him jump. If a > > medic locks the doors and > > > the patient cannot get out the patient could > > potentially turn on the medic. A > > > medic is unable to stop the patient from jumping. > > Any physical contact > > > between the care giver and the patient without the > > patients permission makes for a > > > precarious legal situation. Getting physical i.e. > > tackling or physically > > > restraining a patient who is combative is not a > > good answer. Ask the driver of > > > the ambulance to slow down as quickly as possible > > and try to make the patients > > > landing a little easier. If the patient then > > becomes unconscious. become > > > patient wants to jum > > > ____________ ________ ________ ________ ________ > > ________ > > > Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of > > free safety and security > > > tools, free access to millions of high-quality > > videos from across the web, free > > > AOL Mail and more. > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > > removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > > removed] > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 22, 2007 Report Share Posted January 22, 2007 I see your point Gene, but my life is more important than his. My safety is first. If the guy wants to jump I am not getting in the way therefore letting him take me down with him. Now that being said, the patient should have been restrained to prevent this, chemically or otherwise. If he gets loose from this and still jumps, then guess what? I did my part to restrain him. I think in our area we call PD to section a patient like this which then puts him under PD custody. Cuff him to the stretcher with PD right behnd or in the unit. Sal Capuchino EMT-Paramedic --- wegandy1938@... wrote: > Mr. Nichkin522, please follow list protocol and sign > your post. > > Now, as a lawyer, I must advise caution to others if > tempted to believe your > admonition that " if the patient wants to jump, let > him jump. " > > It is common to seek simple solutions to complex > problems. Dealing with a > patient with behavioral problems is complex. > Solutions are not simple. > > To say that a medic is " unable to stop the patient > from jumping " is too > broad. The medic has the duty to prevent harm to > the patient. With a patient > exhibiting behavioral problems, the medic has the > duty to do everything > reasonable to keep the patient from either hurting > himself or others. > > Therefore, it is too simplistic to say that the > medic is unable to stop the > patient from jumping. That may, or may not, be > true. > > It is also a misconception that " Any physical > contact between the care giver > and the patient without the patients permission > makes for a precarious legal > situation. " When the patient lacks the present > mental capacity to care for > himself, it is the medic's duty to do everything > reasonably possible to prevent > harm to the patient, and if that entails physically > restraining the patient, > that's fine. It is not the law that every > unauthorized touching is bad. The > law accommodates the facts of the situation. > > Whether or not to tackle or physically restrain the > patient depends upon > myriad circumstances. One cannot say as a matter > of law that to do so is wrong. > In fact, it may indeed be what the law required > under the facts of the case. > Remember, all cases are unique. Each case has a > factual life of its own. > > Slowing down before the patient is able to jump is > reasonable; however, to > say that it should be done to " make the patients > landing a little easier " is a > stretch. > > The law says that if a risk is reasonably > foreseeable, then one who has the > power to minimize the risk must do so. That means > that a medic has a duty to > think ahead of the moment and prepare for > extraordinary events such as a > patient trying to exit the ambulance. Once aware > that the patient is trying to > escape, the medic has the duty to do everything > reasonable to prevent harm to > the patient and to others. > > What actions are required depend upon the factual > situation. But to say > that " if the patient wants to jump, let him jump " is > too easy. That attitude is > sure to get you into court. > > Gene Gandy, JD, LP > In a message dated 1/22/07 3:28:19 PM, > Nishkin522@... writes: > > > > > > If the patient wants to jump, let him jump. If a > medic locks the doors and > > the patient cannot get out the patient could > potentially turn on the medic. A > > medic is unable to stop the patient from jumping. > Any physical contact > > between the care giver and the patient without the > patients permission makes for a > > precarious legal situation. Getting physical i.e. > tackling or physically > > restraining a patient who is combative is not a > good answer. Ask the driver of > > the ambulance to slow down as quickly as possible > and try to make the patients > > landing a little easier. If the patient then > becomes unconscious.If the > > patient wants to jum > > ____________ ________ ________ ________ ________ > ________ > > Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of > free safety and security > > tools, free access to millions of high-quality > videos from across the web, free > > AOL Mail and more. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > removed] > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > removed] > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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