Guest guest Posted January 15, 2007 Report Share Posted January 15, 2007 The reason that I brought this up in the first place is the civilian availability of the C2, a " personal taser " (yes, with darts, not just a stun gun) and the price point of $300, which makes it VERY affordable. It's pretty likely that we'll see more and more of these used, and the police officer in me worries that we'll see more deadly-force encounters because of it (an officer threatened with a taser will likely be deadly force as the taser can incapacitate an officer leaving them vulnerable). Then, too, there's the issue of personal safety for medics. Sure, medics shouldn't be getting into situations where they need tasers in the first place, and should have adequate protection on scene. We also know that's not always the case and that situations evolve quickly. I don't know that it's completely unreasonable to consider providing medics with tasers and training, and adopting policies for personal defense and retreat. If you think you're not liable and that your medics won't use their Maglite/Streamlight, handheld radio and/or their LP12 as an impact weapon when/if threatened, you're very, very mistaken. Most medics carry pocket knives (as rescue tools/utility knives) already, and I doubt that many EMS organizations have policies and procedures in place for personal defense in deadly situations. I don't know of any that provide any sort of training for physical engagements (not to subdue anyone, but to break holds, hit that orange button on the radio, and run like hell), but I do remember a class at a conference YEARS ago that touched on that aspect - but never saw any follow up. Just a thought... Mike > Reply to those overly concerned about taser barbs. > > I will send the protocol via texasems-I this Tuesday. As we always > agree, > protocols are guidelines. Depending on the gene pool of our medics > each week, > we re-evaluate all of our protocols on a weekly basis. > Sometimes even on a daily basis. Come on guys, it is a taser barb, > not a > harpoon. We are smart enough to use our good judgement on each > removal call. > Anyone that cannot make that judgement usually doesn't work for me > that long. > > I wear a size 8 on Monday and it goes down to a 7 1/4 by Friday. > Thanks for > asking Dudley. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 16, 2007 Report Share Posted January 16, 2007 Mike: Your post raises pertinent questions. In the " Yeah, But Can You Defend It? " class at the EMS Conference in Dallas, they discussed a case where a medic and patient became involved in an altercation which resulted in the medic striking the patient and breaking the patient's jaw. Of course, the medic was found to be at fault (as I remember - maybe Wes could post the case.) It's a fine line between self-defense and assault. Most of the time it seems that you have to show that you took steps to get away from the imminent attack or took defensive measures at least. I agree with your assessment that a " Mag Light " defense on the part of the medic would probably occur, since I have heard of that happening. Our people are naturally inclined toward controlling the scene and the patient if they present a threat of harm to themselves. Some in our field have VERY LARGE egos that would not be inclined to retreat if threatened. Some EMS people(;P) are also law enforcement officers which also complicates things. We have recently changed medical directors and are discussing a self-defense component to be given to our personnel at the time we verify skills such as airway when we hold a training class in March. Lt. Steve Lemming, AAS, LP EMS Administration Officer C-Shift Azle, Texas Fire Department This e-mail is confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual (s) to whom it is addressed. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of The City of Azle or its policies. If you have received this e-mail message in error, please phone Steve Lemming (817)444-7108. Please also destroy and delete the message from your computer. For more information on The City of Azle, visit our web site at: <http://azle.govoffice.com/> Personal Defense The reason that I brought this up in the first place is the civilian availability of the C2, a " personal taser " (yes, with darts, not just a stun gun) and the price point of $300, which makes it VERY affordable. It's pretty likely that we'll see more and more of these used, and the police officer in me worries that we'll see more deadly-force encounters because of it (an officer threatened with a taser will likely be deadly force as the taser can incapacitate an officer leaving them vulnerable). Then, too, there's the issue of personal safety for medics. Sure, medics shouldn't be getting into situations where they need tasers in the first place, and should have adequate protection on scene. We also know that's not always the case and that situations evolve quickly. I don't know that it's completely unreasonable to consider providing medics with tasers and training, and adopting policies for personal defense and retreat. If you think you're not liable and that your medics won't use their Maglite/Streamlight, handheld radio and/or their LP12 as an impact weapon when/if threatened, you're very, very mistaken. Most medics carry pocket knives (as rescue tools/utility knives) already, and I doubt that many EMS organizations have policies and procedures in place for personal defense in deadly situations. I don't know of any that provide any sort of training for physical engagements (not to subdue anyone, but to break holds, hit that orange button on the radio, and run like hell), but I do remember a class at a conference YEARS ago that touched on that aspect - but never saw any follow up. Just a thought... Mike On Jan 14, 2007, at 11:50 PM, rachfoote@... <mailto:rachfoote%40aol.com> wrote: > Reply to those overly concerned about taser barbs. > > I will send the protocol via texasems-I this Tuesday. As we always > agree, > protocols are guidelines. Depending on the gene pool of our medics > each week, > we re-evaluate all of our protocols on a weekly basis. > Sometimes even on a daily basis. Come on guys, it is a taser barb, > not a > harpoon. We are smart enough to use our good judgement on each > removal call. > Anyone that cannot make that judgement usually doesn't work for me > that long. > > I wear a size 8 on Monday and it goes down to a 7 1/4 by Friday. > Thanks for > asking Dudley. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 16, 2007 Report Share Posted January 16, 2007 steve-how does being a cop complicate things??? ht " Lemming, Steve " wrote: Mike: Your post raises pertinent questions. In the " Yeah, But Can You Defend It? " class at the EMS Conference in Dallas, they discussed a case where a medic and patient became involved in an altercation which resulted in the medic striking the patient and breaking the patient's jaw. Of course, the medic was found to be at fault (as I remember - maybe Wes could post the case.) It's a fine line between self-defense and assault. Most of the time it seems that you have to show that you took steps to get away from the imminent attack or took defensive measures at least. I agree with your assessment that a " Mag Light " defense on the part of the medic would probably occur, since I have heard of that happening. Our people are naturally inclined toward controlling the scene and the patient if they present a threat of harm to themselves. Some in our field have VERY LARGE egos that would not be inclined to retreat if threatened. Some EMS people(;P) are also law enforcement officers which also complicates things. We have recently changed medical directors and are discussing a self-defense component to be given to our personnel at the time we verify skills such as airway when we hold a training class in March. Lt. Steve Lemming, AAS, LP EMS Administration Officer C-Shift Azle, Texas Fire Department This e-mail is confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual (s) to whom it is addressed. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of The City of Azle or its policies. If you have received this e-mail message in error, please phone Steve Lemming (817)444-7108. Please also destroy and delete the message from your computer. For more information on The City of Azle, visit our web site at: <http://azle.govoffice.com/> Personal Defense The reason that I brought this up in the first place is the civilian availability of the C2, a " personal taser " (yes, with darts, not just a stun gun) and the price point of $300, which makes it VERY affordable. It's pretty likely that we'll see more and more of these used, and the police officer in me worries that we'll see more deadly-force encounters because of it (an officer threatened with a taser will likely be deadly force as the taser can incapacitate an officer leaving them vulnerable). Then, too, there's the issue of personal safety for medics. Sure, medics shouldn't be getting into situations where they need tasers in the first place, and should have adequate protection on scene. We also know that's not always the case and that situations evolve quickly. I don't know that it's completely unreasonable to consider providing medics with tasers and training, and adopting policies for personal defense and retreat. If you think you're not liable and that your medics won't use their Maglite/Streamlight, handheld radio and/or their LP12 as an impact weapon when/if threatened, you're very, very mistaken. Most medics carry pocket knives (as rescue tools/utility knives) already, and I doubt that many EMS organizations have policies and procedures in place for personal defense in deadly situations. I don't know of any that provide any sort of training for physical engagements (not to subdue anyone, but to break holds, hit that orange button on the radio, and run like hell), but I do remember a class at a conference YEARS ago that touched on that aspect - but never saw any follow up. Just a thought... Mike On Jan 14, 2007, at 11:50 PM, rachfoote@... <mailto:rachfoote%40aol.com> wrote: > Reply to those overly concerned about taser barbs. > > I will send the protocol via texasems-I this Tuesday. As we always > agree, > protocols are guidelines. Depending on the gene pool of our medics > each week, > we re-evaluate all of our protocols on a weekly basis. > Sometimes even on a daily basis. Come on guys, it is a taser barb, > not a > harpoon. We are smart enough to use our good judgement on each > removal call. > Anyone that cannot make that judgement usually doesn't work for me > that long. > > I wear a size 8 on Monday and it goes down to a 7 1/4 by Friday. > Thanks for > asking Dudley. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 16, 2007 Report Share Posted January 16, 2007 You might want to check out the PMAB (Preventive Management of Agressive Behavior) course that is taught in the state hospitals. It was developed to teach employees to deal with being attacked by clients in a psychotic state without resorting to physical harm. It could easily be modified to fit the needs inside a rig etc. I used it when I worked at Wichita Falls State Hospital and in a couple of drunk situtaions with good results . It is a good tool to use when confronted with a potentially explosive situation. I can't get to the site at TD MHMR but the class is being taught across the country. It is worth checking out. http://www.mindsetconsulting.net/companyprofile.htm Raina > >Reply-To: texasems-l >To: <texasems-l > >Subject: RE: Personal Defense >Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2007 11:17:20 -0600 > >Mike: Your post raises pertinent questions. In the " Yeah, But Can You >Defend It? " class at the EMS Conference in Dallas, they discussed a case >where a medic and patient became involved in an altercation which >resulted in the medic striking the patient and breaking the patient's >jaw. Of course, the medic was found to be at fault (as I remember - >maybe Wes could post the case.) It's a fine line between self-defense >and assault. Most of the time it seems that you have to show that you >took steps to get away from the imminent attack or took defensive >measures at least. I agree with your assessment that a " Mag Light " >defense on the part of the medic would probably occur, since I have >heard of that happening. Our people are naturally inclined toward >controlling the scene and the patient if they present a threat of harm >to themselves. Some in our field have VERY LARGE egos that would not be >inclined to retreat if threatened. Some EMS people(;P) are also law >enforcement officers which also complicates things. > >We have recently changed medical directors and are discussing a >self-defense component to be given to our personnel at the time we >verify skills such as airway when we hold a training class in March. > >Lt. Steve Lemming, AAS, LP >EMS Administration Officer >C-Shift >Azle, Texas Fire Department > >This e-mail is confidential and intended solely for the use of the >individual (s) to whom it is addressed. Any views or opinions presented >are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of >The City of Azle or its policies. If you have received this e-mail >message in error, please phone Steve Lemming (817)444-7108. Please also >destroy and delete the message from your computer. > >For more information on The City of Azle, visit our web site at: ><http://azle.govoffice.com/> > > > > > > > > > > Personal Defense > > > > The reason that I brought this up in the first place is the >civilian > availability of the C2, a " personal taser " (yes, with darts, not >just > a stun gun) and the price point of $300, which makes it VERY > affordable. It's pretty likely that we'll see more and more of > these used, and the police officer in me worries that we'll see >more > deadly-force encounters because of it (an officer threatened >with a > taser will likely be deadly force as the taser can incapacitate >an > officer leaving them vulnerable). > > Then, too, there's the issue of personal safety for medics. >Sure, > medics shouldn't be getting into situations where they need >tasers in > the first place, and should have adequate protection on scene. >We > also know that's not always the case and that situations evolve > quickly. I don't know that it's completely unreasonable to >consider > providing medics with tasers and training, and adopting policies >for > personal defense and retreat. > > If you think you're not liable and that your medics won't use >their > Maglite/Streamlight, handheld radio and/or their LP12 as an >impact > weapon when/if threatened, you're very, very mistaken. Most >medics > carry pocket knives (as rescue tools/utility knives) already, >and I > doubt that many EMS organizations have policies and procedures >in > place for personal defense in deadly situations. I don't know of >any > that provide any sort of training for physical engagements (not >to > subdue anyone, but to break holds, hit that orange button on the > > radio, and run like hell), but I do remember a class at a >conference > YEARS ago that touched on that aspect - but never saw any follow >up. > > Just a thought... > > Mike > > On Jan 14, 2007, at 11:50 PM, rachfoote@... ><mailto:rachfoote%40aol.com> wrote: > > > Reply to those overly concerned about taser barbs. > > > > I will send the protocol via texasems-I this Tuesday. As we >always > > agree, > > protocols are guidelines. Depending on the gene pool of our >medics > > each week, > > we re-evaluate all of our protocols on a weekly basis. > > Sometimes even on a daily basis. Come on guys, it is a taser >barb, > > not a > > harpoon. We are smart enough to use our good judgement on each > > > removal call. > > Anyone that cannot make that judgement usually doesn't work >for me > > that long. > > > > I wear a size 8 on Monday and it goes down to a 7 1/4 by >Friday. > > Thanks for > > asking Dudley. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 16, 2007 Report Share Posted January 16, 2007 According to Google, TDH used to " own " that course, but the link points to a dead page - looks like it's still got a TDH. address instead of a DSHS. web address - so it's probably a long gone page that Google just has a snapshot of. <http://archive.tdh.state.tx.us/legacymhmr/centraloffice/ HumanResourcesDevelopment/SHRDPMABOverview.html > Here's the text - appears it was an MHMR program: " Prevention and Management of Aggressive Behavior (PMAB®) is a risk management program designed specifically for the Texas Department of Mental Health and Mental Retardation (TDMHMR) for use with persons they serve who have mental illness/mental retardation. PMAB® is used to prevent and manage aggressive behavior only when such behavior cannot be anticipated. It is not a behavior modification program and does not include the use of mechanical restraints. PMAB® uses a graduated system of interventions that rely on the least restrictive approaches possible to handle a given situation. The training program consists of 50 procedures for preventing and managing aggressive behavior, as well as background information related to the use of these procedures. Background PMAB® was designed in 1980 by TDMHMR to reduce the number of client and staff injuries that resulted from physical aggression. In the four years after the course was started, injuries to persons served were reduced by 43% and injuries to employees were reduced by 73% at the facility selected for the pilot program. Since that time, aggression-related injuries have continued to decrease throughout the agency. Because PMAB® focuses on using communication skills to prevent aggression and on using the least restrictive option if aggression does occur, it's use significantly decreases the instances of abuse. PMAB® Training Delivery System The PMAB® training program is supported by a service delivery system of master trainers and instructors. There is a centralized PMAB® coordinator for the TDMHMR system who administers the training delivery system with the assistance of a PMAB® faculty of master trainers. It is recommended that organizations that purchase PMAB® and use its procedures support the training program with an infrastructure of instructors, instructor trainers and program coordinator. Instructors and Instructor trainers can support and reinforce classroom training by: * Providing coaching and feedback in the work-place to ensure competence in PMAB® skills * Consulting with supervisors and administrators about the appropriate use of PMAB® procedures * Reviewing injuries caused by aggression Purchasing PMAB® PMAB® Training Materials may be purchased from TDMHMR. Cost: $600 Special pricing is available for Texas state government entities. For additional purchasing information: 512/206-4576. Restrictions on the Use of PMAB® Materials Before purchasing the PMAB® program you should consider the following restrictions: * The letters " PMAB " cannot be used to refer to any training program conducted by and/or for individuals and organizations that are not a part of the TDMHMR system, even when using the PMAB® materials purchased from TDMHMR. * TDMHMR will not be held responsible for how PMAB® materials are used and for how courses using the materials are taught outside of TDMHMR. * The copying of the PMAB® materials for distribution outside of a class or outside of the organization for which they were purchased is prohibited. * Although TDMHMR sells the PMAB® training program to other private and public entities, TDMHMR cannot authorize or provide PMAB® training to anyone who is not employed by TDMHMR, unless there is a contractual agreement or written policy to that effect. Physical Capacity Before students attend a PMAB® course, they should know about the physical requirements necessary for performing procedures safely. If students are expected to demonstrate restraint procedures (sections 4,5.1 and 5.2), it is recommended that they be able to lift 55 pounds. PMAB® Master Trainer and Instructor Training TDMHMR does not provide PMAB® Instructor or Master Trainer certification training to any individuals or organizations outside of the TDMHMR system. Instructors/Master Trainers who conduct training outside of TDMHMR, using PMAB® training materials, do so without the endorsement or legal/organizational support of TDMHMR. Instructor and master trainer certifications are valid for 2 years. When PMAB® Instructors/Master Trainers leave employment with TDMHMR, their certifications terminate. For More Information For additional purchasing information, contact: Walter Gragg, Instructional Design Specialist: or e- mail walter.gragg@... For additional information about PMAB® content and/or delivery system, contact: Janet Thiemermann, Training Specialist: (512) 206-4507 or e-mail janet.thiemermann@... " Mike > You might want to check out the PMAB (Preventive Management of > Agressive > Behavior) course that is taught in the state hospitals. It was > developed to > teach employees to deal with being attacked by clients in a > psychotic state > without resorting to physical harm. It could easily be modified to > fit the > needs inside a rig etc. I used it when I worked at Wichita Falls State > Hospital and in a couple of drunk situtaions with good results . > It is a > good tool to use when confronted with a potentially explosive > situation. I > can't get to the site at TD MHMR but the class is being taught > across the > country. It is worth checking out. > > http://www.mindsetconsulting.net/companyprofile.htm > > Raina > > > > >Reply-To: texasems-l > >To: <texasems-l > > >Subject: RE: Personal Defense > >Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2007 11:17:20 -0600 > > > >Mike: Your post raises pertinent questions. In the " Yeah, But Can You > >Defend It? " class at the EMS Conference in Dallas, they discussed > a case > >where a medic and patient became involved in an altercation which > >resulted in the medic striking the patient and breaking the patient's > >jaw. Of course, the medic was found to be at fault (as I remember - > >maybe Wes could post the case.) It's a fine line between self-defense > >and assault. Most of the time it seems that you have to show that you > >took steps to get away from the imminent attack or took defensive > >measures at least. I agree with your assessment that a " Mag Light " > >defense on the part of the medic would probably occur, since I have > >heard of that happening. Our people are naturally inclined toward > >controlling the scene and the patient if they present a threat of > harm > >to themselves. Some in our field have VERY LARGE egos that would > not be > >inclined to retreat if threatened. Some EMS people(;P) are also law > >enforcement officers which also complicates things. > > > >We have recently changed medical directors and are discussing a > >self-defense component to be given to our personnel at the time we > >verify skills such as airway when we hold a training class in March. > > > >Lt. Steve Lemming, AAS, LP > >EMS Administration Officer > >C-Shift > >Azle, Texas Fire Department > > > >This e-mail is confidential and intended solely for the use of the > >individual (s) to whom it is addressed. Any views or opinions > presented > >are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent > those of > >The City of Azle or its policies. If you have received this e-mail > >message in error, please phone Steve Lemming (817)444-7108. Please > also > >destroy and delete the message from your computer. > > > >For more information on The City of Azle, visit our web site at: > ><http://azle.govoffice.com/> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Personal Defense > > > > > > > > The reason that I brought this up in the first place is the > >civilian > > availability of the C2, a " personal taser " (yes, with darts, not > >just > > a stun gun) and the price point of $300, which makes it VERY > > affordable. It's pretty likely that we'll see more and more of > > these used, and the police officer in me worries that we'll see > >more > > deadly-force encounters because of it (an officer threatened > >with a > > taser will likely be deadly force as the taser can incapacitate > >an > > officer leaving them vulnerable). > > > > Then, too, there's the issue of personal safety for medics. > >Sure, > > medics shouldn't be getting into situations where they need > >tasers in > > the first place, and should have adequate protection on scene. > >We > > also know that's not always the case and that situations evolve > > quickly. I don't know that it's completely unreasonable to > >consider > > providing medics with tasers and training, and adopting policies > >for > > personal defense and retreat. > > > > If you think you're not liable and that your medics won't use > >their > > Maglite/Streamlight, handheld radio and/or their LP12 as an > >impact > > weapon when/if threatened, you're very, very mistaken. Most > >medics > > carry pocket knives (as rescue tools/utility knives) already, > >and I > > doubt that many EMS organizations have policies and procedures > >in > > place for personal defense in deadly situations. I don't know of > >any > > that provide any sort of training for physical engagements (not > >to > > subdue anyone, but to break holds, hit that orange button on the > > > > radio, and run like hell), but I do remember a class at a > >conference > > YEARS ago that touched on that aspect - but never saw any follow > >up. > > > > Just a thought... > > > > Mike > > > > On Jan 14, 2007, at 11:50 PM, rachfoote@... > ><mailto:rachfoote%40aol.com> wrote: > > > > > Reply to those overly concerned about taser barbs. > > > > > > I will send the protocol via texasems-I this Tuesday. As we > >always > > > agree, > > > protocols are guidelines. Depending on the gene pool of our > >medics > > > each week, > > > we re-evaluate all of our protocols on a weekly basis. > > > Sometimes even on a daily basis. Come on guys, it is a taser > >barb, > > > not a > > > harpoon. We are smart enough to use our good judgement on each > > > > > removal call. > > > Anyone that cannot make that judgement usually doesn't work > >for me > > > that long. > > > > > > I wear a size 8 on Monday and it goes down to a 7 1/4 by > >Friday. > > > Thanks for > > > asking Dudley. > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 16, 2007 Report Share Posted January 16, 2007 Your local ISD probably teaches it also... >>> " RE Dodson " 1/16/2007 12:01 pm >>> You might want to check out the PMAB (Preventive Management of Agressive Behavior) course that is taught in the state hospitals. It was developed to teach employees to deal with being attacked by clients in a psychotic state without resorting to physical harm. It could easily be modified to fit the needs inside a rig etc. I used it when I worked at Wichita Falls State Hospital and in a couple of drunk situtaions with good results . It is a good tool to use when confronted with a potentially explosive situation. I can't get to the site at TD MHMR but the class is being taught across the country. It is worth checking out. http://www.mindsetconsulting.net/companyprofile.htm Raina > >Reply-To: texasems-l >To: <texasems-l > >Subject: RE: Personal Defense >Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2007 11:17:20 -0600 > >Mike: Your post raises pertinent questions. In the " Yeah, But Can You >Defend It? " class at the EMS Conference in Dallas, they discussed a case >where a medic and patient became involved in an altercation which >resulted in the medic striking the patient and breaking the patient's >jaw. Of course, the medic was found to be at fault (as I remember - >maybe Wes could post the case.) It's a fine line between self-defense >and assault. Most of the time it seems that you have to show that you >took steps to get away from the imminent attack or took defensive >measures at least. I agree with your assessment that a " Mag Light " >defense on the part of the medic would probably occur, since I have >heard of that happening. Our people are naturally inclined toward >controlling the scene and the patient if they present a threat of harm >to themselves. Some in our field have VERY LARGE egos that would not be >inclined to retreat if threatened. Some EMS people(;P) are also law >enforcement officers which also complicates things. > >We have recently changed medical directors and are discussing a >self-defense component to be given to our personnel at the time we >verify skills such as airway when we hold a training class in March. > >Lt. Steve Lemming, AAS, LP >EMS Administration Officer >C-Shift >Azle, Texas Fire Department > >This e-mail is confidential and intended solely for the use of the >individual (s) to whom it is addressed. Any views or opinions presented >are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of >The City of Azle or its policies. If you have received this e-mail >message in error, please phone Steve Lemming (817)444-7108. Please also >destroy and delete the message from your computer. > >For more information on The City of Azle, visit our web site at: ><http://azle.govoffice.com/> > > > > > > > > > > Personal Defense > > > > The reason that I brought this up in the first place is the >civilian > availability of the C2, a " personal taser " (yes, with darts, not >just > a stun gun) and the price point of $300, which makes it VERY > affordable. It's pretty likely that we'll see more and more of > these used, and the police officer in me worries that we'll see >more > deadly-force encounters because of it (an officer threatened >with a > taser will likely be deadly force as the taser can incapacitate >an > officer leaving them vulnerable). > > Then, too, there's the issue of personal safety for medics. >Sure, > medics shouldn't be getting into situations where they need >tasers in > the first place, and should have adequate protection on scene. >We > also know that's not always the case and that situations evolve > quickly. I don't know that it's completely unreasonable to >consider > providing medics with tasers and training, and adopting policies >for > personal defense and retreat. > > If you think you're not liable and that your medics won't use >their > Maglite/Streamlight, handheld radio and/or their LP12 as an >impact > weapon when/if threatened, you're very, very mistaken. Most >medics > carry pocket knives (as rescue tools/utility knives) already, >and I > doubt that many EMS organizations have policies and procedures >in > place for personal defense in deadly situations. I don't know of >any > that provide any sort of training for physical engagements (not >to > subdue anyone, but to break holds, hit that orange button on the > > radio, and run like hell), but I do remember a class at a >conference > YEARS ago that touched on that aspect - but never saw any follow >up. > > Just a thought... > > Mike > > On Jan 14, 2007, at 11:50 PM, rachfoote@... ><mailto:rachfoote%40aol.com> wrote: > > > Reply to those overly concerned about taser barbs. > > > > I will send the protocol via texasems-I this Tuesday. As we >always > > agree, > > protocols are guidelines. Depending on the gene pool of our >medics > > each week, > > we re-evaluate all of our protocols on a weekly basis. > > Sometimes even on a daily basis. Come on guys, it is a taser >barb, > > not a > > harpoon. We are smart enough to use our good judgement on each > > > removal call. > > Anyone that cannot make that judgement usually doesn't work >for me > > that long. > > > > I wear a size 8 on Monday and it goes down to a 7 1/4 by >Friday. > > Thanks for > > asking Dudley. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 16, 2007 Report Share Posted January 16, 2007 Thanks for the lead. Steve Personal Defense > > > > The reason that I brought this up in the first place is the >civilian > availability of the C2, a " personal taser " (yes, with darts, not >just > a stun gun) and the price point of $300, which makes it VERY > affordable. It's pretty likely that we'll see more and more of > these used, and the police officer in me worries that we'll see >more > deadly-force encounters because of it (an officer threatened >with a > taser will likely be deadly force as the taser can incapacitate >an > officer leaving them vulnerable). > > Then, too, there's the issue of personal safety for medics. >Sure, > medics shouldn't be getting into situations where they need >tasers in > the first place, and should have adequate protection on scene. >We > also know that's not always the case and that situations evolve > quickly. I don't know that it's completely unreasonable to >consider > providing medics with tasers and training, and adopting policies >for > personal defense and retreat. > > If you think you're not liable and that your medics won't use >their > Maglite/Streamlight, handheld radio and/or their LP12 as an >impact > weapon when/if threatened, you're very, very mistaken. Most >medics > carry pocket knives (as rescue tools/utility knives) already, >and I > doubt that many EMS organizations have policies and procedures >in > place for personal defense in deadly situations. I don't know of >any > that provide any sort of training for physical engagements (not >to > subdue anyone, but to break holds, hit that orange button on the > > radio, and run like hell), but I do remember a class at a >conference > YEARS ago that touched on that aspect - but never saw any follow >up. > > Just a thought... > > Mike > > On Jan 14, 2007, at 11:50 PM, rachfoote@... <mailto:rachfoote%40aol.com> ><mailto:rachfoote%40aol.com> wrote: > > > Reply to those overly concerned about taser barbs. > > > > I will send the protocol via texasems-I this Tuesday. As we >always > > agree, > > protocols are guidelines. Depending on the gene pool of our >medics > > each week, > > we re-evaluate all of our protocols on a weekly basis. > > Sometimes even on a daily basis. Come on guys, it is a taser >barb, > > not a > > harpoon. We are smart enough to use our good judgement on each > > > removal call. > > Anyone that cannot make that judgement usually doesn't work >for me > > that long. > > > > I wear a size 8 on Monday and it goes down to a 7 1/4 by >Friday. > > Thanks for > > asking Dudley. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 16, 2007 Report Share Posted January 16, 2007 I believe only MHMR or DADS will handle instruction of PMAB, I also worked at a residence facility[school and had this training, IT works!! but it is designed for small stature people to be able to handle larger persons. Myron Hudson wrote: Your local ISD probably teaches it also... >>> " RE Dodson " 1/16/2007 12:01 pm >>> You might want to check out the PMAB (Preventive Management of Agressive Behavior) course that is taught in the state hospitals. It was developed to teach employees to deal with being attacked by clients in a psychotic state without resorting to physical harm. It could easily be modified to fit the needs inside a rig etc. I used it when I worked at Wichita Falls State Hospital and in a couple of drunk situtaions with good results . It is a good tool to use when confronted with a potentially explosive situation. I can't get to the site at TD MHMR but the class is being taught across the country. It is worth checking out. http://www.mindsetconsulting.net/companyprofile.htm Raina > >Reply-To: texasems-l >To: <texasems-l > >Subject: RE: Personal Defense >Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2007 11:17:20 -0600 > >Mike: Your post raises pertinent questions. In the " Yeah, But Can You >Defend It? " class at the EMS Conference in Dallas, they discussed a case >where a medic and patient became involved in an altercation which >resulted in the medic striking the patient and breaking the patient's >jaw. Of course, the medic was found to be at fault (as I remember - >maybe Wes could post the case.) It's a fine line between self-defense >and assault. Most of the time it seems that you have to show that you >took steps to get away from the imminent attack or took defensive >measures at least. I agree with your assessment that a " Mag Light " >defense on the part of the medic would probably occur, since I have >heard of that happening. Our people are naturally inclined toward >controlling the scene and the patient if they present a threat of harm >to themselves. Some in our field have VERY LARGE egos that would not be >inclined to retreat if threatened. Some EMS people(;P) are also law >enforcement officers which also complicates things. > >We have recently changed medical directors and are discussing a >self-defense component to be given to our personnel at the time we >verify skills such as airway when we hold a training class in March. > >Lt. Steve Lemming, AAS, LP >EMS Administration Officer >C-Shift >Azle, Texas Fire Department > >This e-mail is confidential and intended solely for the use of the >individual (s) to whom it is addressed. Any views or opinions presented >are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of >The City of Azle or its policies. If you have received this e-mail >message in error, please phone Steve Lemming (817)444-7108. Please also >destroy and delete the message from your computer. > >For more information on The City of Azle, visit our web site at: ><http://azle.govoffice.com/> > > > > > > > > > > Personal Defense > > > > The reason that I brought this up in the first place is the >civilian > availability of the C2, a " personal taser " (yes, with darts, not >just > a stun gun) and the price point of $300, which makes it VERY > affordable. It's pretty likely that we'll see more and more of > these used, and the police officer in me worries that we'll see >more > deadly-force encounters because of it (an officer threatened >with a > taser will likely be deadly force as the taser can incapacitate >an > officer leaving them vulnerable). > > Then, too, there's the issue of personal safety for medics. >Sure, > medics shouldn't be getting into situations where they need >tasers in > the first place, and should have adequate protection on scene. >We > also know that's not always the case and that situations evolve > quickly. I don't know that it's completely unreasonable to >consider > providing medics with tasers and training, and adopting policies >for > personal defense and retreat. > > If you think you're not liable and that your medics won't use >their > Maglite/Streamlight, handheld radio and/or their LP12 as an >impact > weapon when/if threatened, you're very, very mistaken. Most >medics > carry pocket knives (as rescue tools/utility knives) already, >and I > doubt that many EMS organizations have policies and procedures >in > place for personal defense in deadly situations. I don't know of >any > that provide any sort of training for physical engagements (not >to > subdue anyone, but to break holds, hit that orange button on the > > radio, and run like hell), but I do remember a class at a >conference > YEARS ago that touched on that aspect - but never saw any follow >up. > > Just a thought... > > Mike > > On Jan 14, 2007, at 11:50 PM, rachfoote@... ><mailto:rachfoote%40aol.com> wrote: > > > Reply to those overly concerned about taser barbs. > > > > I will send the protocol via texasems-I this Tuesday. As we >always > > agree, > > protocols are guidelines. Depending on the gene pool of our >medics > > each week, > > we re-evaluate all of our protocols on a weekly basis. > > Sometimes even on a daily basis. Come on guys, it is a taser >barb, > > not a > > harpoon. We are smart enough to use our good judgement on each > > > removal call. > > Anyone that cannot make that judgement usually doesn't work >for me > > that long. > > > > I wear a size 8 on Monday and it goes down to a 7 1/4 by >Friday. > > Thanks for > > asking Dudley. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 16, 2007 Report Share Posted January 16, 2007 HT had some difficulties in getting his message through. Apparently there was a delay. The message below was my message to him. Opinions are my own - SL Hi H.T. Sorry your comment didn't make the list. What I was referring to, is I've seen people who have both certs/licenses carry the " cop " attitude with them and sometimes tend to forget the uniform they are wearing that day. Now I fully realize that not everyone is like that. I realize that probably most law enforcement people like yourself are fully professional people who could function in all three roles (police, fire, EMS) comfortably and professionally. I just know from some of the people I have worked with in different places previously would get their hackles up when somebody invaded their space and may revert to " cop mode " if somebody tried to get confrontational. Sad, but true. I personally don't take most things people do personally, short of a full-on assault. I have heard of a case from another service in the past where somebody used a mag light on a restrained patient! No disrespect to my law enforcement brothers, I hope you understand what I'm saying! Be safe out there. Steve Personal Defense The reason that I brought this up in the first place is the civilian availability of the C2, a " personal taser " (yes, with darts, not just a stun gun) and the price point of $300, which makes it VERY affordable. It's pretty likely that we'll see more and more of these used, and the police officer in me worries that we'll see more deadly-force encounters because of it (an officer threatened with a taser will likely be deadly force as the taser can incapacitate an officer leaving them vulnerable). Then, too, there's the issue of personal safety for medics. Sure, medics shouldn't be getting into situations where they need tasers in the first place, and should have adequate protection on scene. We also know that's not always the case and that situations evolve quickly. I don't know that it's completely unreasonable to consider providing medics with tasers and training, and adopting policies for personal defense and retreat. If you think you're not liable and that your medics won't use their Maglite/Streamlight, handheld radio and/or their LP12 as an impact weapon when/if threatened, you're very, very mistaken. Most medics carry pocket knives (as rescue tools/utility knives) already, and I doubt that many EMS organizations have policies and procedures in place for personal defense in deadly situations. I don't know of any that provide any sort of training for physical engagements (not to subdue anyone, but to break holds, hit that orange button on the radio, and run like hell), but I do remember a class at a conference YEARS ago that touched on that aspect - but never saw any follow up. Just a thought... Mike On Jan 14, 2007, at 11:50 PM, rachfoote@... <mailto:rachfoote%40aol.com> <mailto:rachfoote%40aol.com> wrote: > Reply to those overly concerned about taser barbs. > > I will send the protocol via texasems-I this Tuesday. As we always > agree, > protocols are guidelines. Depending on the gene pool of our medics > each week, > we re-evaluate all of our protocols on a weekly basis. > Sometimes even on a daily basis. Come on guys, it is a taser barb, > not a > harpoon. We are smart enough to use our good judgement on each > removal call. > Anyone that cannot make that judgement usually doesn't work for me > that long. > > I wear a size 8 on Monday and it goes down to a 7 1/4 by Friday. > Thanks for > asking Dudley. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 17, 2007 Report Share Posted January 17, 2007 I was trained at Terrell state hospital in PMAB and it worked well when I had to use it in the emergency department and in an abbulance. M. Shane R.N., CEN, EMT-P myron schmiedekamp wrote: I believe only MHMR or DADS will handle instruction of PMAB, I also worked at a residence facility[school and had this training, IT works!! but it is designed for small stature people to be able to handle larger persons. Myron Hudson wrote: Your local ISD probably teaches it also... >>> " RE Dodson " 1/16/2007 12:01 pm >>> You might want to check out the PMAB (Preventive Management of Agressive Behavior) course that is taught in the state hospitals. It was developed to teach employees to deal with being attacked by clients in a psychotic state without resorting to physical harm. It could easily be modified to fit the needs inside a rig etc. I used it when I worked at Wichita Falls State Hospital and in a couple of drunk situtaions with good results . It is a good tool to use when confronted with a potentially explosive situation. I can't get to the site at TD MHMR but the class is being taught across the country. It is worth checking out. http://www.mindsetconsulting.net/companyprofile.htm Raina > >Reply-To: texasems-l >To: <texasems-l > >Subject: RE: Personal Defense >Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2007 11:17:20 -0600 > >Mike: Your post raises pertinent questions. In the " Yeah, But Can You >Defend It? " class at the EMS Conference in Dallas, they discussed a case >where a medic and patient became involved in an altercation which >resulted in the medic striking the patient and breaking the patient's >jaw. Of course, the medic was found to be at fault (as I remember - >maybe Wes could post the case.) It's a fine line between self-defense >and assault. Most of the time it seems that you have to show that you >took steps to get away from the imminent attack or took defensive >measures at least. I agree with your assessment that a " Mag Light " >defense on the part of the medic would probably occur, since I have >heard of that happening. Our people are naturally inclined toward >controlling the scene and the patient if they present a threat of harm >to themselves. Some in our field have VERY LARGE egos that would not be >inclined to retreat if threatened. Some EMS people(;P) are also law >enforcement officers which also complicates things. > >We have recently changed medical directors and are discussing a >self-defense component to be given to our personnel at the time we >verify skills such as airway when we hold a training class in March. > >Lt. Steve Lemming, AAS, LP >EMS Administration Officer >C-Shift >Azle, Texas Fire Department > >This e-mail is confidential and intended solely for the use of the >individual (s) to whom it is addressed. Any views or opinions presented >are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of >The City of Azle or its policies. If you have received this e-mail >message in error, please phone Steve Lemming (817)444-7108. Please also >destroy and delete the message from your computer. > >For more information on The City of Azle, visit our web site at: ><http://azle.govoffice.com/> > > > > > > > > > > Personal Defense > > > > The reason that I brought this up in the first place is the >civilian > availability of the C2, a " personal taser " (yes, with darts, not >just > a stun gun) and the price point of $300, which makes it VERY > affordable. It's pretty likely that we'll see more and more of > these used, and the police officer in me worries that we'll see >more > deadly-force encounters because of it (an officer threatened >with a > taser will likely be deadly force as the taser can incapacitate >an > officer leaving them vulnerable). > > Then, too, there's the issue of personal safety for medics. >Sure, > medics shouldn't be getting into situations where they need >tasers in > the first place, and should have adequate protection on scene. >We > also know that's not always the case and that situations evolve > quickly. I don't know that it's completely unreasonable to >consider > providing medics with tasers and training, and adopting policies >for > personal defense and retreat. > > If you think you're not liable and that your medics won't use >their > Maglite/Streamlight, handheld radio and/or their LP12 as an >impact > weapon when/if threatened, you're very, very mistaken. Most >medics > carry pocket knives (as rescue tools/utility knives) already, >and I > doubt that many EMS organizations have policies and procedures >in > place for personal defense in deadly situations. I don't know of >any > that provide any sort of training for physical engagements (not >to > subdue anyone, but to break holds, hit that orange button on the > > radio, and run like hell), but I do remember a class at a >conference > YEARS ago that touched on that aspect - but never saw any follow >up. > > Just a thought... > > Mike > > On Jan 14, 2007, at 11:50 PM, rachfoote@... ><mailto:rachfoote%40aol.com> wrote: > > > Reply to those overly concerned about taser barbs. > > > > I will send the protocol via texasems-I this Tuesday. As we >always > > agree, > > protocols are guidelines. Depending on the gene pool of our >medics > > each week, > > we re-evaluate all of our protocols on a weekly basis. > > Sometimes even on a daily basis. Come on guys, it is a taser >barb, > > not a > > harpoon. We are smart enough to use our good judgement on each > > > removal call. > > Anyone that cannot make that judgement usually doesn't work >for me > > that long. > > > > I wear a size 8 on Monday and it goes down to a 7 1/4 by >Friday. > > Thanks for > > asking Dudley. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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