Revised Opinion of Protocol Testing

[Guest guest]

It is not about Physicians and Nurses. It is about EMS and I say EMS so

that EMT's and EMT-I's don't get the red ass when I say Paramedics. This

is our profession. It is not the Physicians or the Nurses professions.

They do a pretty good job of protecting their turf. And yes I said turf.

We had better start taking care of our own before it is taken away from

us.

Yes we need Physicians so that we may operate. Do we need to hand over

the keys to the car just because they are responsible for the insurance?

No.

For those Physicians that serve as Medical Directors: The ones that are

being paid, they are our employees, we expect them to do a good job and

to over see only the Medical Aspect of the care we deliver. That does

not mean that they determine the color of the truck, the number of

flares we carry, who we hire or how we go about our business. Medical

Aspect only. Remember, the paid Medical Directors are employees.

For those Medical Directors that do so on a volunteer basis, we have a

responsibility to provide them with as much help as possible so that

they can help us without interferring with their practice. That means we

must act responsibly and not bother them with petty BS.

Nurses: I love them and have been accused of loving them in the past.

But that is all rumor. I think that nurses played an important role in

EMS back in 1973 when we didn't not have the knowledge or ability to

train our own. They brought valuable information to the table. As long

as we allow others to tell us that if you have RN behind your name you

are smarter than a paramedic then we deserve what we get. Yes we need

more education behind Paramedic. What we don't need to do is discount

that even the Paramedic without education (college) brung us to this

dance. (Song here) All I am asking for is a little respect, I ain't

going to do you wrong.

In EMS their is no provider more important than the EMS provider. We

must take the position that it is our profession and that we must guide,

steer, move,dictate and regulate it. All others providers can be

appreciated, respected and utilized as needed to assist in making us

what we are and what we are to become but we must be the focal point. It

is our profession.

Henry

krin135@... wrote:

>

>

> In a message dated 02-Jun-06 07:44:05 Central Daylight Time,

> medicnate2004@... writes:

>

> I have yet to see a reason why nurses should test paramedics? You

> don't see paramedics testing nurses? Kind of seems like a step in the

>

> wrong direction to start having the hospital staff train/test people

> who work prehospital.

>

> IMHO, thats like asking a vet to test dental students.

>

> Nate

>

>

> Considering that there are cases where Dentists have learned to

> rebuild

> teeth and jaws on animals....who do you think did the teaching?

>

> S. Krin, DO FAAFP

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

OK, I have to stick my nose in here regarding the parts of this discussion that

have to do with " educating " the Paramedics. I have been on both sides of the

fence - certified and licensed - as a Paramedic and as an educator. I have

taught in both private and college based programs. I also have been on both

sides of the fence as the Paramedic on the truck and as the EMS Director in

charge of hiring, firing, and ensuring that the service meets the standard of

care. And I have come full circle on this part of the issue.

While there are some private programs out there that do NOT turn out quality EMS

folks, there are also many colleges who do the same. I have been finding that

just because someone has gone through the college system and obtained a degree

in EMS does NOT make them a better Paramedic. I have had students being

precepted or looking to be hired who were within weeks of graduating with a

degree in EMS and ready to sit for the NR Paramedic exam which, if they pass,

gets them a license with that degree - and many of them can't Paramedic their

way out of a paper bag with the instructions written on the inside. What is sad

is that I have seen the same AFTER they have graduated and passed the NR exam.

On the other hand, I have had some very good Paramedic students and very good

new Paramedics provide excellent assessment and care in my presence who were NOT

from college-based programs.

Don't get me wrong, I am not dissing colleges (did I spell that right?). I am

dissing bad programs - both college based and private. AND the other part of

that picture is that those programs with the highest pass rates first time on NR

does NOT mean that they are turning out candidates for employment who know their

stuff - it just means they do better on a test. Many of the programs that have

extremely high pass rates on the NR have very stringent screening procedures

that may exclude some potentially talented folks who just need a little more

help through the process for learning and retention (many of these folks once

they got it, they got it) OR they have a very high drop rate during the course

and only turn out the select few who are pretty much guaranteed to pass. You

can make numbers, percentages, and pass rates mean whatever you want them to

mean, but that doesn't make them true or correct representations of what is

really transpiring.

Anyway, I know this discussion was basically about protocols and testing and

such, but the education component is very important. And after having been

around the block with college versus private in all spectrums here, I feel I

have the right to say that the following is true in my opinion:

1. Education is very important.

2. A solid grasp of applicable anatomy and physiology concepts is important for

much of the Paramedic curriculum.

3. While I will adamantly agree that the ability to read and write the English

language proficiently is a must, it doesn't mean they had to take English 1301

and 1302 to accomplish that.

4. Having many of the other required college core courses for a degree such as

history, government, etc, has little bearing on making a " well-rounded " or

proficient Paramedic.

5. There is a place in our society for both licensed and certified Paramedics -

just as their is a place for BSN, ASN, and LVN nurses. (And all of those are

considered " professionals. " )

Sooo, for whatever it is worth, having all EMS classes taught in the college

would, in my opinion, only limit the availability of good programs. Right now

we have the best of both worlds - some good college programs and some good

private programs. Why don't we focus our energy on figuring out which programs

are NOT teaching the depth and breadth of the NSC for each level and are

basically short-changing their students and the communities they serve? Why

don't we review what is working and build on those things rather than try to

force everyone into a mold that also doesn't work consistently? Whether the

educational program is private or college-based is NOT the problem - the quality

of the programs from school to school is the problem.

Jane Hill

-------------- Original message from Henry :

--------------

It is not about Physicians and Nurses. It is about EMS and I say EMS so

that EMT's and EMT-I's don't get the red ass when I say Paramedics. This

is our profession. It is not the Physicians or the Nurses professions.

They do a pretty good job of protecting their turf. And yes I said turf.

We had better start taking care of our own before it is taken away from

us.

Yes we need Physicians so that we may operate. Do we need to hand over

the keys to the car just because they are responsible for the insurance?

No.

For those Physicians that serve as Medical Directors: The ones that are

being paid, they are our employees, we expect them to do a good job and

to over see only the Medical Aspect of the care we deliver. That does

not mean that they determine the color of the truck, the number of

flares we carry, who we hire or how we go about our business. Medical

Aspect only. Remember, the paid Medical Directors are employees.

For those Medical Directors that do so on a volunteer basis, we have a

responsibility to provide them with as much help as possible so that

they can help us without interferring with their practice. That means we

must act responsibly and not bother them with petty BS.

Nurses: I love them and have been accused of loving them in the past.

But that is all rumor. I think that nurses played an important role in

EMS back in 1973 when we didn't not have the knowledge or ability to

train our own. They brought valuable information to the table. As long

as we allow others to tell us that if you have RN behind your name you

are smarter than a paramedic then we deserve what we get. Yes we need

more education behind Paramedic. What we don't need to do is discount

that even the Paramedic without education (college) brung us to this

dance. (Song here) All I am asking for is a little respect, I ain't

going to do you wrong.

In EMS their is no provider more important than the EMS provider. We

must take the position that it is our profession and that we must guide,

steer, move,dictate and regulate it. All others providers can be

appreciated, respected and utilized as needed to assist in making us

what we are and what we are to become but we must be the focal point. It

is our profession.

Henry

krin135@... wrote:

>

>

> In a message dated 02-Jun-06 07:44:05 Central Daylight Time,

> medicnate2004@... writes:

>

> I have yet to see a reason why nurses should test paramedics? You

> don't see paramedics testing nurses? Kind of seems like a step in the

>

> wrong direction to start having the hospital staff train/test people

> who work prehospital.

>

> IMHO, thats like asking a vet to test dental students.

>

> Nate

>

>

> Considering that there are cases where Dentists have learned to

> rebuild

> teeth and jaws on animals....who do you think did the teaching?

>

> S. Krin, DO FAAFP

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Jane,

Before I jump in, let me say I agree with a lot of what you have said here...but

I do want to point out a couple of things....(BTW, we have both the excellent

college and private programs...and some of the others too here...)

But you made some points...if students can't pass a stringent entrance exams it

may leave really talented people behind who just need help with learning and

retention...so which Medical Schools discount the MCAT in favor of helping

people with their learning and retention?

I will argue all day long that courses such as humanities, a foreign language,

history and other " basics " goes a long way to making a more well-rounded

paramedic...it is at least one who has learned more than what they were taught

in a garage somewhere and has had their basic way of thinking they arrived with

from home challenged and thought through.

Lastly, what good RN and MD/DO programs are taught in hospital cafeterias and

motorpool garages?

So...I do agree...for now...but we need to work on moving everything up...not

making excuses for keeping it the same. Like I suggested in the past about

other things that are in need of improvment in the State...when home-grown

non-college programs end or go away....the number of those should decline

permanently...and then if the number of training programs increases anywhere in

the state...it should be at a collegiate level....

Dudley

Re: Revised Opinion of Protocol Testing

OK, I have to stick my nose in here regarding the parts of this discussion that

have to do with " educating " the Paramedics. I have been on both sides of the

fence - certified and licensed - as a Paramedic and as an educator. I have

taught in both private and college based programs. I also have been on both

sides of the fence as the Paramedic on the truck and as the EMS Director in

charge of hiring, firing, and ensuring that the service meets the standard of

care. And I have come full circle on this part of the issue.

While there are some private programs out there that do NOT turn out quality EMS

folks, there are also many colleges who do the same. I have been finding that

just because someone has gone through the college system and obtained a degree

in EMS does NOT make them a better Paramedic. I have had students being

precepted or looking to be hired who were within weeks of graduating with a

degree in EMS and ready to sit for the NR Paramedic exam which, if they pass,

gets them a license with that degree - and many of them can't Paramedic their

way out of a paper bag with the instructions written on the inside. What is sad

is that I have seen the same AFTER they have graduated and passed the NR exam.

On the other hand, I have had some very good Paramedic students and very good

new Paramedics provide excellent assessment and care in my presence who were NOT

from college-based programs.

Don't get me wrong, I am not dissing colleges (did I spell that right?). I am

dissing bad programs - both college based and private. AND the other part of

that picture is that those programs with the highest pass rates first time on NR

does NOT mean that they are turning out candidates for employment who know their

stuff - it just means they do better on a test. Many of the programs that have

extremely high pass rates on the NR have very stringent screening procedures

that may exclude some potentially talented folks who just need a little more

help through the process for learning and retention (many of these folks once

they got it, they got it) OR they have a very high drop rate during the course

and only turn out the select few who are pretty much guaranteed to pass. You

can make numbers, percentages, and pass rates mean whatever you want them to

mean, but that doesn't make them true or correct representations of what is

really transpiring.

Anyway, I know this discussion was basically about protocols and testing and

such, but the education component is very important. And after having been

around the block with college versus private in all spectrums here, I feel I

have the right to say that the following is true in my opinion:

1. Education is very important.

2. A solid grasp of applicable anatomy and physiology concepts is important for

much of the Paramedic curriculum.

3. While I will adamantly agree that the ability to read and write the English

language proficiently is a must, it doesn't mean they had to take English 1301

and 1302 to accomplish that.

4. Having many of the other required college core courses for a degree such as

history, government, etc, has little bearing on making a " well-rounded " or

proficient Paramedic.

5. There is a place in our society for both licensed and certified Paramedics -

just as their is a place for BSN, ASN, and LVN nurses. (And all of those are

considered " professionals. " )

Sooo, for whatever it is worth, having all EMS classes taught in the college

would, in my opinion, only limit the availability of good programs. Right now

we have the best of both worlds - some good college programs and some good

private programs. Why don't we focus our energy on figuring out which programs

are NOT teaching the depth and breadth of the NSC for each level and are

basically short-changing their students and the communities they serve? Why

don't we review what is working and build on those things rather than try to

force everyone into a mold that also doesn't work consistently? Whether the

educational program is private or college-based is NOT the problem - the quality

of the programs from school to school is the problem.

Jane Hill

-------------- Original message from Henry :

--------------

It is not about Physicians and Nurses. It is about EMS and I say EMS so

that EMT's and EMT-I's don't get the red ass when I say Paramedics. This

is our profession. It is not the Physicians or the Nurses professions.

They do a pretty good job of protecting their turf. And yes I said turf.

We had better start taking care of our own before it is taken away from

us.

Yes we need Physicians so that we may operate. Do we need to hand over

the keys to the car just because they are responsible for the insurance?

No.

For those Physicians that serve as Medical Directors: The ones that are

being paid, they are our employees, we expect them to do a good job and

to over see only the Medical Aspect of the care we deliver. That does

not mean that they determine the color of the truck, the number of

flares we carry, who we hire or how we go about our business. Medical

Aspect only. Remember, the paid Medical Directors are employees.

For those Medical Directors that do so on a volunteer basis, we have a

responsibility to provide them with as much help as possible so that

they can help us without interferring with their practice. That means we

must act responsibly and not bother them with petty BS.

Nurses: I love them and have been accused of loving them in the past.

But that is all rumor. I think that nurses played an important role in

EMS back in 1973 when we didn't not have the knowledge or ability to

train our own. They brought valuable information to the table. As long

as we allow others to tell us that if you have RN behind your name you

are smarter than a paramedic then we deserve what we get. Yes we need

more education behind Paramedic. What we don't need to do is discount

that even the Paramedic without education (college) brung us to this

dance. (Song here) All I am asking for is a little respect, I ain't

going to do you wrong.

In EMS their is no provider more important than the EMS provider. We

must take the position that it is our profession and that we must guide,

steer, move,dictate and regulate it. All others providers can be

appreciated, respected and utilized as needed to assist in making us

what we are and what we are to become but we must be the focal point. It

is our profession.

Henry

krin135@... wrote:

>

>

> In a message dated 02-Jun-06 07:44:05 Central Daylight Time,

> medicnate2004@... writes:

>

> I have yet to see a reason why nurses should test paramedics? You

> don't see paramedics testing nurses? Kind of seems like a step in the

>

> wrong direction to start having the hospital staff train/test people

> who work prehospital.

>

> IMHO, thats like asking a vet to test dental students.

>

> Nate

>

>

> Considering that there are cases where Dentists have learned to

> rebuild

> teeth and jaws on animals....who do you think did the teaching?

>

> S. Krin, DO FAAFP

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Bravo, Henry Bravo!!!!!

Henry wrote: It is not about Physicians and Nurses. It

is about EMS and I say EMS so

that EMT's and EMT-I's don't get the red ass when I say Paramedics. This

is our profession. It is not the Physicians or the Nurses professions.

They do a pretty good job of protecting their turf. And yes I said turf.

We had better start taking care of our own before it is taken away from

us.

Yes we need Physicians so that we may operate. Do we need to hand over

the keys to the car just because they are responsible for the insurance?

No.

For those Physicians that serve as Medical Directors: The ones that are

being paid, they are our employees, we expect them to do a good job and

to over see only the Medical Aspect of the care we deliver. That does

not mean that they determine the color of the truck, the number of

flares we carry, who we hire or how we go about our business. Medical

Aspect only. Remember, the paid Medical Directors are employees.

For those Medical Directors that do so on a volunteer basis, we have a

responsibility to provide them with as much help as possible so that

they can help us without interferring with their practice. That means we

must act responsibly and not bother them with petty BS.

Nurses: I love them and have been accused of loving them in the past.

But that is all rumor. I think that nurses played an important role in

EMS back in 1973 when we didn't not have the knowledge or ability to

train our own. They brought valuable information to the table. As long

as we allow others to tell us that if you have RN behind your name you

are smarter than a paramedic then we deserve what we get. Yes we need

more education behind Paramedic. What we don't need to do is discount

that even the Paramedic without education (college) brung us to this

dance. (Song here) All I am asking for is a little respect, I ain't

going to do you wrong.

In EMS their is no provider more important than the EMS provider. We

must take the position that it is our profession and that we must guide,

steer, move,dictate and regulate it. All others providers can be

appreciated, respected and utilized as needed to assist in making us

what we are and what we are to become but we must be the focal point. It

is our profession.

Henry

krin135@... wrote:

>

>

> In a message dated 02-Jun-06 07:44:05 Central Daylight Time,

> medicnate2004@... writes:

>

> I have yet to see a reason why nurses should test paramedics? You

> don't see paramedics testing nurses? Kind of seems like a step in the

>

> wrong direction to start having the hospital staff train/test people

> who work prehospital.

>

> IMHO, thats like asking a vet to test dental students.

>

> Nate

>

>

> Considering that there are cases where Dentists have learned to

> rebuild

> teeth and jaws on animals....who do you think did the teaching?

>

> S. Krin, DO FAAFP

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

All I can say, Dudley, is that I cannot agree that putting EMS

training exclusively in the college environment will in the best

interest of EMS education, communities served, etc. So we will just

have to respectfully agree to disagree on this point.

Jane Hill

>

> >

> >

> > In a message dated 02-Jun-06 07:44:05 Central Daylight Time,

> > medicnate2004@... writes:

> >

> > I have yet to see a reason why nurses should test paramedics?

You

> > don't see paramedics testing nurses? Kind of seems like a step

in the

> >

> > wrong direction to start having the hospital staff train/test

people

> > who work prehospital.

> >

> > IMHO, thats like asking a vet to test dental students.

> >

> > Nate

> >

> >

> > Considering that there are cases where Dentists have learned to

> > rebuild

> > teeth and jaws on animals....who do you think did the teaching?

> >

> > S. Krin, DO FAAFP

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Stated by Dudley:

....when home-grown non-college programs end or go away....the number of

those should decline permanently...and then if the number of training

programs increases anywhere in the state...it should be at a collegiate

level....

Ah..there's the key. But this is not happening at this time and until

there are an adequate number of quality college-based programs the

independent programs best keep it up. The statement above is probably

everyone's goal (except those who are trying hard to make a living with

their own program) but when will it happen? No foreseeability now. We

cannot get enough medics from colleges. Nor enough generally. And we all

know there is a well-established industry shortage of medics. And many

applicants don't pass the grade. We HAVE to keep a program and we are

not a college. Bottom line.

Don, Tyler

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[Guest guest]

The other reason that many private training programs still exist is some of the

inherent inflexibility in the colleges' respective educational bureaucracies.

There are often issues with degree requirements (particularly for those

transferring from other institutions or who already have a degree) and with a

schedule that assumes one is a full-time student (individual classes that meet

three times a week, only during the daytime).

Community colleges and junior colleges were often formed as a reaction to the

perception that traditional universities were unreceptive to the needs of

working or non-traditional students. Unfortunately, many of them have forgotten

such a mission in their well-intentioned desires to become " respected " members

of the educational establishment.

-Wes Ogilvie

Austin, Texas

Re: Revised Opinion of Protocol Testing

Stated by Dudley:

....when home-grown non-college programs end or go away....the number of

those should decline permanently...and then if the number of training

programs increases anywhere in the state...it should be at a collegiate

level....

Ah..there's the key. But this is not happening at this time and until

there are an adequate number of quality college-based programs the

independent programs best keep it up. The statement above is probably

everyone's goal (except those who are trying hard to make a living with

their own program) but when will it happen? No foreseeability now. We

cannot get enough medics from colleges. Nor enough generally. And we all

know there is a well-established industry shortage of medics. And many

applicants don't pass the grade. We HAVE to keep a program and we are

not a college. Bottom line.

Don, Tyler

===========================================================

This message is confidential, intended only

for the named recipient(s) and may contain

information that is privileged or exempt from

disclosure under applicable law. If you are

not the intended recipient(s), you are notified

that the dissemination, distribution or copying

of this message is strictly prohibited. If you

received this message in error, or are not the

named recipient(s), please notify the sender

and delete this e-mail from your computer.

ETMC has implemented secure messaging for

certain types of messages. For more information

about our secure messaging system, go to:

http://www.etmc.org/mail/

Thank you.

===========================================================

________________________________________________________________________

Check out AOL.com today. Breaking news, video search, pictures, email and IM.

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[Guest guest]

Here is an easy fix to the debate. Compare NR statistics on Texas programs

and you will find the answer.

Lee

Re: Revised Opinion of Protocol Testing

All I can say, Dudley, is that I cannot agree that putting EMS

training exclusively in the college environment will in the best

interest of EMS education, communities served, etc. So we will just

have to respectfully agree to disagree on this point.

Jane Hill

>

> >

> >

> > In a message dated 02-Jun-06 07:44:05 Central Daylight Time,

> > medicnate2004@... writes:

> >

> > I have yet to see a reason why nurses should test paramedics?

You

> > don't see paramedics testing nurses? Kind of seems like a step

in the

> >

> > wrong direction to start having the hospital staff train/test

people

> > who work prehospital.

> >

> > IMHO, thats like asking a vet to test dental students.

> >

> > Nate

> >

> >

> > Considering that there are cases where Dentists have learned to

> > rebuild

> > teeth and jaws on animals....who do you think did the teaching?

> >

> > S. Krin, DO FAAFP

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Don...

One thing I have to disagree on...I do not see a shortage of paramedics...I do

see a shortage of quality paramedics...we get 10 to 15 applicants each time we

open our intake...if we get one to make it through the testing we are

fortunate...

Dudley

Re: Revised Opinion of Protocol Testing

Stated by Dudley:

....when home-grown non-college programs end or go away....the number of

those should decline permanently...and then if the number of training

programs increases anywhere in the state...it should be at a collegiate

level....

Ah..there's the key. But this is not happening at this time and until

there are an adequate number of quality college-based programs the

independent programs best keep it up. The statement above is probably

everyone's goal (except those who are trying hard to make a living with

their own program) but when will it happen? No foreseeability now. We

cannot get enough medics from colleges. Nor enough generally. And we all

know there is a well-established industry shortage of medics. And many

applicants don't pass the grade. We HAVE to keep a program and we are

not a college. Bottom line.

Don, Tyler

===========================================================

This message is confidential, intended only

for the named recipient(s) and may contain

information that is privileged or exempt from

disclosure under applicable law. If you are

not the intended recipient(s), you are notified

that the dissemination, distribution or copying

of this message is strictly prohibited. If you

received this message in error, or are not the

named recipient(s), please notify the sender

and delete this e-mail from your computer.

ETMC has implemented secure messaging for

certain types of messages. For more information

about our secure messaging system, go to:

http://www.etmc.org/mail/

Thank you.

===========================================================

________________________________________________________________________

Check out AOL.com today. Breaking news, video search, pictures, email and IM.

All on demand. Always Free.

[Guest guest]

Dudley, I think that is really the issue here in this whole discussion - quality

of programs, quality of product. And the only real way you can assess quality is

not by looking at NR test scores or pass/fail rates by themselves - you have to

also look at the quality of the final employee candidate coming out of the

schools. Are these folks street ready or not? Are they able to function at an

entry level competency? Has the program prepared them adequately to be able to

function in the streets, in the back of a unit? So that is really the real

disparity between programs both college-based and private. Some colleges and

some privates put out a VERY good product in the form of very solid EMS

personnel who don't have to be completely retrained before you can put them on

the truck. Others..... well, that is no so good.

Jane Hill

--------- Re: Revised Opinion of Protocol Testing

Stated by Dudley:

....when home-grown non-college programs end or go away....the number of

those should decline permanently...and then if the number of training

programs increases anywhere in the state...it should be at a collegiate

level....

Ah..there's the key. But this is not happening at this time and until

there are an adequate number of quality college-based programs the

independent programs best keep it up. The statement above is probably

everyone's goal (except those who are trying hard to make a living with

their own program) but when will it happen? No foreseeability now. We

cannot get enough medics from colleges. Nor enough generally. And we all

know there is a well-established industry shortage of medics. And many

applicants don't pass the grade. We HAVE to keep a program and we are

not a college. Bottom line.

Don, Tyler

===========================================================

This message is confidential, intended only

for the named recipient(s) and may contain

information that is privileged or exempt from

disclosure under applicable law. If you are

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[Guest guest]

In a message dated 6/8/2006 4:13:25 P.M. Central Daylight Time,

kcmedic904@... writes:

Yeah, but Money talks and BS walks!!!!!!!!!!!

OK but why is it that in most EMS systems the only ones making any money are

not the guys and gals in the trucks? (If money is being made that is?)

Louis N. Molino, Sr., CET

FF/NREMT-B/FSI/EMSI

Freelance Consultant/Trainer/Author/Journalist/Fire Protection Consultant

LNMolino@...

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" A Texan with a Jersey Attitude "

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discuss people " Eleanor Roosevelt - US diplomat & reformer (1884 - 1962)

The comments contained in this E-mail are the opinions of the author and the

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[Guest guest]

Dudley, Is it just a shortage of quality paramedics or is it a shortage of

quality paramedics who are willing to work for the pay range that you offer? We

run into the same problem, it is hard to compete with agencies like ATCEMS. The

medics who are properly trained and capable of providing quality care are

usually not willing to accept the starting pay that we offer.

Danny Denson, EMT-P

THEDUDMAN@... wrote:

Don...

One thing I have to disagree on...I do not see a shortage of paramedics...I do

see a shortage of quality paramedics...we get 10 to 15 applicants each time we

open our intake...if we get one to make it through the testing we are

fortunate...

Dudley

Re: Revised Opinion of Protocol Testing

Stated by Dudley:

....when home-grown non-college programs end or go away....the number of

those should decline permanently...and then if the number of training

programs increases anywhere in the state...it should be at a collegiate

level....

Ah..there's the key. But this is not happening at this time and until

there are an adequate number of quality college-based programs the

independent programs best keep it up. The statement above is probably

everyone's goal (except those who are trying hard to make a living with

their own program) but when will it happen? No foreseeability now. We

cannot get enough medics from colleges. Nor enough generally. And we all

know there is a well-established industry shortage of medics. And many

applicants don't pass the grade. We HAVE to keep a program and we are

not a college. Bottom line.

Don, Tyler

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[Guest guest]

In my opinion, the way to compete with an agency like ATCEMS is not by trying to

match salary, but by comparing intangibles.

To many people, quality of life and working conditions are every bit as

important as salary.

-Wes Ogilvie

Austin, Texas

Re: Revised Opinion of Protocol Testing

Stated by Dudley:

....when home-grown non-college programs end or go away....the number of

those should decline permanently...and then if the number of training

programs increases anywhere in the state...it should be at a collegiate

level....

Ah..there's the key. But this is not happening at this time and until

there are an adequate number of quality college-based programs the

independent programs best keep it up. The statement above is probably

everyone's goal (except those who are trying hard to make a living with

their own program) but when will it happen? No foreseeability now. We

cannot get enough medics from colleges. Nor enough generally. And we all

know there is a well-established industry shortage of medics. And many

applicants don't pass the grade. We HAVE to keep a program and we are

not a college. Bottom line.

Don, Tyler

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[Guest guest]

Agreed. Our service increased starting pay nearly 35% over the last few

years and a Paramedic with 5 years experience now starts at an hourly

rate at or above what the local hospitals are paying RN's. Although we

have another dynamic working against us, increased population from

hurricane evacuees, we are still having a difficult time in filling

vacant positions.

AJL

________________________________

From: texasems-l [mailto:texasems-l ] On

Behalf Of ExLngHrn@...

Sent: Thursday, June 08, 2006 1:51 PM

To: texasems-l

Subject: Re: Re: Revised Opinion of Protocol Testing

In my opinion, the way to compete with an agency like ATCEMS is not by

trying to match salary, but by comparing intangibles.

To many people, quality of life and working conditions are every bit as

important as salary.

-Wes Ogilvie

Austin, Texas

Re: Revised Opinion of Protocol Testing

Stated by Dudley:

....when home-grown non-college programs end or go away....the number of

those should decline permanently...and then if the number of training

programs increases anywhere in the state...it should be at a collegiate

level....

Ah..there's the key. But this is not happening at this time and until

there are an adequate number of quality college-based programs the

independent programs best keep it up. The statement above is probably

everyone's goal (except those who are trying hard to make a living with

their own program) but when will it happen? No foreseeability now. We

cannot get enough medics from colleges. Nor enough generally. And we all

know there is a well-established industry shortage of medics. And many

applicants don't pass the grade. We HAVE to keep a program and we are

not a college. Bottom line.

Don, Tyler

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[Guest guest]

Yeah, but Money talks and BS walks!!!!!!!!!!!

ExLngHrn@... wrote: In my opinion, the way to compete with an

agency like ATCEMS is not by trying to match salary, but by comparing

intangibles.

To many people, quality of life and working conditions are every bit as

important as salary.

-Wes Ogilvie

Austin, Texas

Re: Revised Opinion of Protocol Testing

Stated by Dudley:

....when home-grown non-college programs end or go away....the number of

those should decline permanently...and then if the number of training

programs increases anywhere in the state...it should be at a collegiate

level....

Ah..there's the key. But this is not happening at this time and until

there are an adequate number of quality college-based programs the

independent programs best keep it up. The statement above is probably

everyone's goal (except those who are trying hard to make a living with

their own program) but when will it happen? No foreseeability now. We

cannot get enough medics from colleges. Nor enough generally. And we all

know there is a well-established industry shortage of medics. And many

applicants don't pass the grade. We HAVE to keep a program and we are

not a college. Bottom line.

Don, Tyler

===========================================================

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information that is privileged or exempt from

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received this message in error, or are not the

named recipient(s), please notify the sender

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[Guest guest]

Definately could be the pay...but we are highest paid 3rd service in our area

and only outpaced by ATCEMS....although that difference is large....

Dudley

Re: Revised Opinion of Protocol Testing

Stated by Dudley:

....when home-grown non-college programs end or go away....the number of

those should decline permanently...and then if the number of training

programs increases anywhere in the state...it should be at a collegiate

level....

Ah..there's the key. But this is not happening at this time and until

there are an adequate number of quality college-based programs the

independent programs best keep it up. The statement above is probably

everyone's goal (except those who are trying hard to make a living with

their own program) but when will it happen? No foreseeability now. We

cannot get enough medics from colleges. Nor enough generally. And we all

know there is a well-established industry shortage of medics. And many

applicants don't pass the grade. We HAVE to keep a program and we are

not a college. Bottom line.

Don, Tyler

===========================================================

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Thank you.

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