Is pasteurized milk really bad?

[Guest guest]

On Wed, 20 Mar 2002 19:27:00 " Berg " <brberg@...> writes:

>From: " r_rom " <r_rom@...>

>Making one fallacious statement (such as " pasteurized milk kills

>calves " ) in a court would shooting yourself in a foot... if you are

>caught, of course. Your credibility in the court would probably not

>rise much above zero afterwards.

Unless you represent the state, of course.

How true!

Bianca

[Guest guest]

On Wed, 20 Mar 2002 23:02:26 -0500 Idol <Idol@...>

writes:

Bianca-

>I think we need to slow down a bit before we charge Sally with an

>unvalidated, unscientific statement. She could be wrong, but she might

be

>right too, and I need more than what I'm seeing so far before I dismiss

>her statement as false.

For sure, but statements like that which just _seem_ wrong ought to be

footnoted if possible to avoid this very kind of problem.

-

Agreed.

-Bianca

[Guest guest]

Great job Carmen! I agree completely and share your reservations. I

would feel a lot more comfortable if the statement were removed.

[Guest guest]

Carmen,

Wow!

I'd say based on what I've seen so far that there can be no rational

justification for leaving the comments about pasteurized milk and calves on

the RealMilk website. If such a claim is desperately desired, it should

only be presented in the context of the specific study that showed it.

Even if somebody is able to show that the claim is technically true in some

sense(which I honestly doubt), the credibility damage done by the statement

in its current form (uncited and overstated) is huge.

[Guest guest]

<<<<<Sally Wrote: He remembers a study that was done in

Australia (but I don't have a reference for this) in which they fed

calves pasteurized milk and they died. >>>>>>

Carmen Writes:

Apparently Sally doesn't have a reference for that study and so far no one

else has come up with one either, I did an internet search and came up with

the following:

" Calf health improvement.

According to farm manager Gilliland, the calves perform " better on

milk than powered milk, " and even better on pasteurized milk than

unpasteurized milk. This, along with knowing the calves are drinking a

quality feed free of bacteria, are perhaps the biggest advantages of feeding

pasteurized milk. "

Full Article Here:

http://www.goodnature.com/case studies

" Pasteurization of Waste Milk Fed to Calves

Pasteurization safely decreases pathogens in all types of milk fed to

young calves. Recently, University of California at researchers

(Jamaluddin et al., 1996) reported that calves fed pasteurized milk had

fewer days with diarrhea and pneumonia than calves fed nonpasteurized milk.

Also, calves fed pasteurized milk had greater average weight gain than

calves fed nonpasteurized milk. Calves fed pasteurized milk grossed an extra

$8.13 per head, attributed to reduced health complications and treatment

costs, when compared with calves fed nonpasteurized milk. "

" Calves fed pasteurized waste milk have fewer illnesses than those fed

unpasteurized waste milk. "

Full Article Here:

http://www.cahe.nmsu.edu/pubs/_d/d-208.html

" 3. To minimize any possible exposure to disease through its mother's

milk, we quickly separate the newborn calf from its mother, and milk

the mother into a stainless steel bucket, then pasteurize the milk

prior

to feeding the calf. This milk is known as colostrum (rich in fat,

protein

and antibodies). Calves are fed this pasteurized milk for 60 days. "

Full Article Here:

http://www.fiscalinifarms.com/food_safety.htm

Sally Wrote:

I then had a long conversation with his nephew who raises calves in

New Zealand. ..He raises the calves on raw milk. He confirmed the truth of

the

statement--if the calves are fed pasteurized milk, they do not reach

maturity. >>>

Carmen Writes:

What is the basis of the nephew's statement? Since he's raising calves on

raw milk, how does he know they will die if raised on pasteurized milk? Is

he merely repeating a statement he heard from his Uncle who remembers a

study, but doesn't have the reference?

Sally Wrote:

<<<< I asked him whether he thought using the milk

replacement was one reason that dairy cows now have such short lives

and he thought this might be so. >>>>>>

Carmen Writes:

This is mere conjecture on his part. What is considered a " short life " of

a dairy cow? The farm where I get my raw milk, has cows in the milking line

everyday that are as much as 10 years old. They were raised as calves on

milk replacer and are still earning their keep even at 10 years old.

Sally Wrote:

<< As for goats, I had an email conversation with a friend who is just

getting in to raising goats.She confirmed that goats are given a

combination of dried colostrum and a milk replacment to avoid passing

CAE. " >>>

Carmen Writes:

Perhaps Sally is comfortable with the testimony of someone " who is just

getting in to goats " . The statement that goats are given " a combination of

dried colostrum and a milk replacement " is sometimes true. It is also common

for kids to be raised on pasteurized milk. I live about five miles from a

large dairy goat farm. They milk roughly 150 does per day, sell goat cheese

all over the country, and at one time were the largest farmstead in the

southeast. They have been dairy goat farming for approximately 30 years.

Guess what? They have raised hundreds of kids on pasteurized goat milk.

Here is a testimony on the Caprine Supply website:

Raising Kids on Pasteurized Milk

While pasteurizing milk seems like a lot of trouble, we’re sold on it. We’

ve eliminated “big knees” and swollen joints in our herd, and we have fewer

cases of pneumonia. When “pasteurized does” freshen, there’s no more udder

edema, and their production is superior to our “nonpasteurized does’.” Best

of all, we’re raising healthy, robust kids who grow up to be good

milk-producing, long-lived, healthy does.

Full Article Here:

http://www.caprinesupply.com/shop/past_milk.html

Here is a statement from the website of Buckwheat Acres in Wisconsin, who

is milking 23 does per day:

" Doe kids get heat-treated colostrum and pasteurized milk from the bottle

from day one, as a preventative against ne's and CAE (an arthritic

disease in goats). "

Full Article Here:

http://buckwheat.hypermart.net/goats.htm

Sally Wrote:

<<< So the statement on the website is basically correct. >>>>

Carmen Writes:

Quite frankly I don't see how Sally can stand by the statement that

" calves raised on pasteurized milk die before reaching maturity " . There may

possibly have been a study that involved pasteurized milk and calves

dieing, but there are certainly are numerous studies and real life

situations where calves and goats have been raised on pasteurized milk and

have grown to maturity and have led productive lives. Which leads me to

believe, if such a study exist, the calves may have died for some other

reason than just the fact the milk was pasteurized.

I will continue to drink raw milk. I respect Sally and admire her hard

work, but as for calves raised on pasteurized milk dying before reaching

maturity.......???? I also think that this statement could cast a shadow of

doubt on the rest of her work.

Carmen

[Guest guest]

Carmen,

let me join in the choir of people to thank you for your work on this.

Great job!

From some of the posts on the thread I gathered that the point that Sally

was making is that calves fed exclusively on pasteurized milk will not

survive. The word *exclusively*, and also the time framework, need to be

clearly stated in my opinion--if this is indeed what she is saying.

J.

Carmen schrieb:

> Hi & ,

>

> Thanks. I was terrified of being flamed to death

>

> Carmen

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi & ,

Thanks. I was terrified of being flamed to death

Carmen

[Guest guest]

What's BARF?

NAPD?

RMBs - red meat bones?

Peace,

Kris , gardening in northwest Ohio

----- Original Message -----

From: s.fisher22 <s.fisher22@...>

< >

Sent: Monday, March 25, 2002 8:12 AM

Subject: RE: Re: Is pasteurized milk really bad?

> Hi ,

>

> >***I'm afraid that this book is not a good example of well-documented

[Guest guest]

Sally's study is from Australia . Becky's below from Scotland.

Here is one reference I found:

From Food is Your Best Medicine, by Henry Bieler, pg 213

" Thomson of Edinburgh reports another test with twin calves, one

suckled, and the other fed on pasteurized milk. The first was

healthy but the second died within sixty days. This experiment was

repeated many times. "

The more I look at farming methods, food quality and population health of

other

countries the more my " bs " meter goes off at U.S. research. Probably began

when

I saw Canada's results on the same testing the U.S. did that ok'd Rgbh.

Wanita

At 12:12 PM 3/27/02 -0800, you wrote:

>   <<<<<Sally Wrote: He remembers a study that was done in

>  Australia (but I don't have a reference for this) in which they fed

>  calves pasteurized milk and they died.   >>>>>>

>

>  Carmen Writes:

>

>  Apparently Sally doesn't have a reference for that study and so far no one

>else has come up with one either, I did an internet search and came up with

>the following:

>   " Calf health improvement.

>  According to farm manager Gilliland, the calves perform " better on

>milk than powered milk, " and even better on pasteurized milk than

>unpasteurized milk. This, along with knowing the calves are drinking a

>quality feed free of bacteria, are perhaps the biggest advantages of feeding

>pasteurized milk. "

>

>  Full Article Here:

>

>  <http://www.goodnature.com/case>http://www.goodnature.com/case studies

>

>  " Pasteurization of Waste Milk Fed to Calves

>  Pasteurization safely decreases pathogens in all types of milk fed to

>young calves. Recently, University of California at researchers

>(Jamaluddin et al., 1996) reported that calves fed pasteurized milk had

>fewer days with diarrhea and pneumonia than calves fed nonpasteurized milk.

>Also, calves fed pasteurized milk had greater average weight gain than

>calves fed nonpasteurized milk. Calves fed pasteurized milk grossed an extra

>$8.13 per head, attributed to reduced health complications and treatment

>costs, when compared with calves fed nonpasteurized milk. "

>

>  " Calves fed pasteurized waste milk have fewer illnesses than those fed

>unpasteurized waste milk. "

>

>  Full Article Here:

>

> 

<http://www.cahe.nmsu.edu/pubs/_d/d-208.html>http://www.cahe.nmsu.edu/pubs/_

d/d-208.html

>

>   " 3. To minimize any possible exposure to disease through its mother's

>      milk, we quickly separate the newborn calf from its mother, and milk

>      the mother into a stainless steel bucket, then pasteurize the milk

>prior

>      to feeding the calf. This milk is known as colostrum (rich in fat,

>protein

>      and antibodies). Calves are fed this pasteurized milk for 60 days. "

>

>  Full Article Here:

>

> 

<http://www.fiscalinifarms.com/food_safety.htm>http://www.fiscalinifarms.com

/food_safety.htm

>

>  Sally Wrote:

>  I then had a long conversation with his nephew who raises calves in

>  New Zealand. ..He raises the calves on raw milk. He confirmed the truth of

>the

>  statement--if the calves are fed pasteurized milk, they do not reach

>  maturity. >>>

>

>  Carmen Writes:

>

>  What is the basis of the nephew's statement? Since he's raising calves on

>raw milk, how does he know they will die if raised on pasteurized milk? Is

>he merely repeating a statement he heard from his Uncle who remembers a

>study, but doesn't have the reference?

>

>   Sally Wrote:

>

>  <<<< I asked him whether he thought using the milk

>  replacement was one reason that dairy cows now have such short lives

>  and he thought this might be so.  >>>>>>

>

>  Carmen Writes:

>  This is mere conjecture on his part. What is considered a " short life " of

>a dairy cow? The farm where I get my raw milk, has cows in the milking line

>everyday that are as much as 10 years old. They were raised as calves on

>milk replacer and are still earning their keep even at 10 years old.

>

>   Sally Wrote:

>

>   << As for goats, I had an email conversation with a friend who is just

>  getting in to raising goats.She confirmed that goats are given  a

>  combination of dried colostrum and a milk replacment to avoid passing

>  CAE. "   >>>

>

>  Carmen Writes:

>  Perhaps Sally is comfortable with the testimony of someone " who is just

>getting in to goats " . The statement that goats are given " a combination of

>dried colostrum and a milk replacement " is sometimes true. It is also common

>for kids to be raised on pasteurized milk.  I live about five miles from a

>large dairy goat farm. They milk roughly 150 does per day, sell goat cheese

>all over the country, and at one time were the largest farmstead in the

>southeast. They have been dairy goat farming for approximately 30 years.

>Guess what? They have raised hundreds of kids on pasteurized goat milk.

>

>  Here is a testimony on the Caprine Supply website:

>

>  Raising Kids on Pasteurized Milk

>  While pasteurizing milk seems like a lot of trouble, we’re sold on it. We’

>ve eliminated “big knees” and swollen joints in our herd, and we have fewer

>cases of pneumonia. When “pasteurized does” freshen, there’s no more udder

>edema, and their production is superior to our “nonpasteurized does’.” Best

>of all, we’re raising healthy, robust kids who grow up to be good

>milk-producing, long-lived, healthy does.

>

>  Full Article Here:

>

> 

<http://www.caprinesupply.com/shop/past_milk.html>http://www.caprinesupply.c

om/shop/past_milk.html

>

>  Here is a statement from the website of Buckwheat Acres in Wisconsin, who

>is milking 23 does per day:

>

>  " Doe kids get heat-treated colostrum and pasteurized milk from the bottle

>from day one, as a preventative against ne's and CAE (an arthritic

>disease in goats). "

>

>  Full Article Here:

>

> 

<http://buckwheat.hypermart.net/goats.htm>http://buckwheat.hypermart.net/goa

ts.htm

>

>  Sally Wrote:

>  <<< So the statement on the website is basically correct. >>>>

>

>  Carmen Writes:

>

>  Quite frankly I don't see how Sally can stand by the statement that

> " calves raised on pasteurized milk die before reaching maturity " . There may

>possibly have been a study  that involved pasteurized milk and calves

>dieing, but there are certainly are numerous studies and real life

>situations where calves and goats have been raised on pasteurized milk and

>have grown to maturity and have led productive lives. Which leads me to

>believe, if such a study exist, the calves may have died for some other

>reason than just the fact the milk was pasteurized.

>  I will continue to drink raw milk. I respect Sally and admire her hard

>work, but as for calves raised on pasteurized milk dying before reaching

>maturity.......???? I also think that this statement could cast a shadow of

>doubt on the rest of her work.

>

>  Carmen

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

He remembers a study that was done in

> Australia (but I don't have a reference for this) in which they

fed

> calves pasteurized milk and they died. >>>>>>

>

> Carmen Writes:

>

> Apparently Sally doesn't have a reference for that study and so

far no one

> else has come up with one either, I did an internet search and came

up with

> the following:

> >>>>clipped by dennis>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

>

> " Pasteurization of Waste Milk Fed to Calves

> Pasteurization safely decreases pathogens in all types of milk fed

to

> young calves. Recently, University of California at

researchers

> (Jamaluddin et al., 1996) reported that calves fed pasteurized milk

had

> fewer days with diarrhea and pneumonia than calves fed

nonpasteurized milk.

> Also, calves fed pasteurized milk had greater average weight gain

than

> calves fed nonpasteurized milk. Calves fed pasteurized milk grossed

an extra

> $8.13 per head, attributed to reduced health complications and

treatment

> costs, when compared with calves fed nonpasteurized milk. "

>

> " Calves fed pasteurized waste milk have fewer illnesses than those

fed

> unpasteurized waste milk. "

>

> Full Article Here:

>

> http://www.cahe.nmsu.edu/pubs/_d/d-208.html

>

> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>clipped by dennis>>>>>>>>>>>>>.

> Carmen

>

>

>

> >>>>>>>>>>>>>I just perused the above article and found several

items worthy of note:It states pasteurization of colostrum is not

recommended. And further the entire study is based on using WASTE

milk which is defined as mostly milk with either antibiotics in it or

mastitic milk, which would most likely IMO, have high numbers of

infectuous microorganisms in it. I don't have time to read and report

on the others yet but I will. I didn't bucket feed my calf with WASTE

milk, but with whole raw fresh milk. You can bet WAP research wasn't

done with WASTE milk. (You might lose the bet but I don't think so.)

The next reference Carmen refers to is the one which apparently

pasteurizes colostrum before feeding calves. In reading one article

(the above article) and Carmen's #3 reference (the sentence she

posted) to the other article there is disagreement over pasteurization

of colostrum! I realize I've proven little other than there is

controversy in reading just one article and one sentence from

another. Enjoy the discussion BUT lots more research is needed

before determining the controversial sentence in NT is a throw away

sentence! Dennis

>

>

[Guest guest]

He remembers a study that was done in

> > Australia (but I don't have a reference for this) in which they

> fed

> > calves pasteurized milk and they died. >>>>>>

> >

> > Carmen Writes:

> >

> > Apparently Sally doesn't have a reference for that study and so

> far no one

> > else has come up with one either, I did an internet search and

came

> up with

> > the following:

> > >>>>clipped by dennis>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

> >

> > " Pasteurization of Waste Milk Fed to Calves

> > Pasteurization safely decreases pathogens in all types of milk

fed

> to

> > young calves. Recently, University of California at

> researchers

> > (Jamaluddin et al., 1996) reported that calves fed pasteurized

milk

> had

> > fewer days with diarrhea and pneumonia than calves fed

> nonpasteurized milk.

> > Also, calves fed pasteurized milk had greater average weight gain

> than

> > calves fed nonpasteurized milk. Calves fed pasteurized milk

grossed

> an extra

> > $8.13 per head, attributed to reduced health complications and

> treatment

> > costs, when compared with calves fed nonpasteurized milk. "

> >

> > " Calves fed pasteurized waste milk have fewer illnesses than

those

> fed

> > unpasteurized waste milk. "

> >

> > Full Article Here:

> >

> > http://www.cahe.nmsu.edu/pubs/_d/d-208.html

> >

> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>clipped by dennis>>>>>>>>>>>>>.

> > Carmen

> >

> >

> >

> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>I just perused the above article and found several

> items worthy of note:It states pasteurization of colostrum is not

> recommended. And further the entire study is based on using WASTE

> milk which is defined as mostly milk with either antibiotics in it

or

> mastitic milk, which would most likely IMO, have high numbers of

> infectuous microorganisms in it. I don't have time to read and

report

> on the others yet but I will. I didn't bucket feed my calf with

WASTE

> milk, but with whole raw fresh milk. You can bet WAP research

wasn't

> done with WASTE milk. (You might lose the bet but I don't think

so.)

> The next reference Carmen refers to is the one which apparently

> pasteurizes colostrum before feeding calves. In reading one

article

> (the above article) and Carmen's #3 reference (the sentence she

> posted) to the other article there is disagreement over

pasteurization

> of colostrum! I realize I've proven little other than there is

> controversy in reading just one article and one sentence from

> another. Enjoy the discussion BUT lots more research is needed

> before determining the controversial sentence in NT is a throw

away

> sentence!

Dennis, I don't believe you are following the debate. No one is

disputing that calves fed raw milk aren't healthier. The point is

that calves fed pastuerized milk *don't* die before maturity.

[Guest guest]

<<<<And further the entire study is based on using WASTE

milk which is defined as mostly milk with either antibiotics in it or

mastitic milk, which would most likely IMO, have high numbers of

infectuous microorganisms in it. I don't have time to read and report

on the others yet but I will. I didn't bucket feed my calf with WASTE

milk, but with whole raw fresh milk. You can bet WAP research wasn't

done with WASTE milk. (You might lose the bet but I don't think so.)

>>>>>>>>

Dennis,

The point is still not whether or not they used waste milk. The point is

very simple. The milk was PASTEURIZED and the calves didn't die.

<<< The next reference Carmen refers to is the one which apparently

pasteurizes colostrum before feeding calves. In reading one article

(the above article) and Carmen's #3 reference (the sentence she

posted) to the other article there is disagreement over pasteurization

of colostrum! >>>

You are right that I gave references that had contradicting opinions as to

the value of pasteurized colostrum vs.. raw. Again, that's not the point.

The point is the calves didn't die when fed pasteurized colostrum. In some

instances there is no other option than to give pasteurized colostrom or

even a colostrom replacer. Pasteurized colostrom is better than no

colostrom. In certain scenarios pasteurized would even be better than raw.

When you know a cow has a disease that can be passed to her calf through the

colostrom or milk, it would certainly be better to pasteurize. In a perfect

world all calves would get raw colostrom and milk from their mother, but

that's not reality.

Carmen

[Guest guest]

> <<<<And further the entire study is based on using WASTE

> milk which is defined as mostly milk with either antibiotics in it

or

> mastitic milk, which would most likely IMO, have high numbers of

> infectuous microorganisms in it. I don't have time to read and

report

> on the others yet but I will. I didn't bucket feed my calf with

WASTE

> milk, but with whole raw fresh milk. You can bet WAP research

wasn't

> done with WASTE milk. (You might lose the bet but I don't think

so.)

> >>>>>>>>

>

> Dennis,

> The point is still not whether or not they used waste milk. The

point is

> very simple. The milk was PASTEURIZED and the calves didn't die.

>

> <<< The next reference Carmen refers to is the one which

apparently

> pasteurizes colostrum before feeding calves. In reading one

article

> (the above article) and Carmen's #3 reference (the sentence she

> posted) to the other article there is disagreement over

pasteurization

> of colostrum! >>>

>

> Clipped by dennis>>>>>>>>>>>

> even a colostrom replacer. Pasteurized colostrom is better than no

> colostrom. In certain scenarios pasteurized would even be better

than raw.

> When you know a cow has a disease that can be passed to her calf

through the

> colostrom or milk, it would certainly be better to pasteurize. In a

perfect

> world all calves would get raw colostrom and milk from their mother,

but

> that's not reality.

>

> Carmen

>

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Do you folks feed pasteurized colostrum?

In reality how many dairy calves did you feed today? In the " perfect

world " sentence you sound like you feed lots of them,IMO.Do you manage

a farm/dairy? How do you know pasteurized colostrum is better than no

colostrum? What facts and assumptions are you making? Dennis

[Guest guest]

--- In native-nu

> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Do you folks feed pasteurized

colostrum?

> In reality how many dairy calves did you feed today? In

the " perfect

> world " sentence you sound like you feed lots of them,IMO.Do you

manage

> a farm/dairy? How do you know pasteurized colostrum is better than

no

> colostrum? What facts and assumptions are you making?

sorry to post to this thread so late, but i can't find the original

thread, and i'm new to the list.

correct me if i'm mistaken, but i though coluctrum WAS an antibiotic

in and of itself, even IF a natural one (IMHO, translate BETTER one,

there are no harmful side effects) to this day i don't think

scientiss have managed to grow bacteria in any colostrum, irregardles

as to what mammal it comes from.

some would argue (myself included) that the way mil is pasteurized in

this country makes no sense. slowly heating it so that bacteria can

adjust to the temps, and not heating it high enough, and then slowly

cooling it, many bacteria are left to feed off the dead bacteria.

ultra high heat pasturization on the other hand makes mroe sense, but

i for one only do high heat paturization when i can' find raw milk (i

move often)when i can't get raw, i use organic ultra homogonized.

think about it, if you cook your veggies, you lose vitaminsminerals,

if you cook yur meat, you lose vit's & mineral, if you cook your

MILK, you lose vitamins and minerls. i know, i know someone is going

to argu about pople not getting sck noadays,btu guess what, e really

don't have scarlet fever or many other sicknesses any mroe in this

country, it is because as a whole, we have become more hygenic. what

disgusts me more than anything is the attitude in dairie that even if

alittle crap gets in the milk, it'll be ok because it'll be heated,

right?

YUCK@,

stefanie.

joyous wife to terry and proud momma to three, katarina 1.2.00 sierra

1.13.01 and a new jellybean due 12/2002 (UC of course)

[Guest guest]

>

Hi Stefanie, good to have you on the list!

Since you couldn't dig up the early thread, let me catch you up. No

one here disputes the fact that calves (or humans) are healthier on

raw milk than they are on the pasteurized stuff. The issue is a very

specific nitpick with the realmilk.com website which makes the

claim " calves fed pastuerized milk die before maturity. "

Roman was actually talking to a dairy farmer who wanted to know why

he was interested in raw milk. He said because its healthier - calves

fed pastuerized milk die before maturity. The dairy farmer was

surprised - he raised his calves on pasteurized milk and they all

lived to maturity. In fact, using pastuerized milk and milk replacers

(which have been extensively processed, including by high heat) is

standard practice in the dairy industry.

We have a few farmers on this list and they all agree that their

animals on raw milk grow up bigger and healthier, but the fact is

that the statement on the website is wrong: calves fed pastuerized

milk don't die before maturity. A lot of people who actually know

about this stuff, like Carmen, are speculating that the one

mysterious and completely unreferenced study involved feeding calves

pastuerized milk and nothing else. Normally calves have to start

eating grass or grains after a week or two or they will die before

maturity. If you feed them nothing but pastuerized milk they will die

before maturity - but not because of the poor quality of the milk,

but because they aren't getting grass or grains.

At best the statement is completely misleading because it makes

pastuerized milk look like the culprit instead of the lack of grass

or grains (it seems to be an open question whether cows fed raw milk

and nothing else die before maturity). Furthermore, it is

unreferenced. The result is that it makes the rest of the

realmilk.com website - which does raise some good points, look worse

by comparison. The general consensus on the list is that official

material from WAP should only include completely honest information

that is well supported by the evidence that is not misleading or

telling half-truths.

Again, we are all believers in raw milk here. We all agree its

healthier for calves and humans than pastuerized milk. As a matter of

fact, we believe that so strongly that we don't have to shirk away

from contradictory data. We believe a dispassionate and thorough

review of the evidence will lead to a stronger belief in the health

benefits of raw milk.

[Guest guest]

I'm new to the list, but thought I would interject my experiences here,

since we do raise calves and kids and so have a bit of hands on experience.

We have never bothered to pasteurize milk for calves, but as someone

mentioned, there is a disease, CAE that can be passed from the dam to the

kid, in goats. So most goatherders do pasteurize their milk and colostrum.

And the kids seem to grow and do fine on it (which is relative). As you can

imagine it is a pain! We test our herd regularly for this disease, and

after 3 years of completely clean tests, we went to feeding raw milk. We

found that the kids were growthier and had much better resistance to

disease. With the calves, we also found that we lost fewer, and that they

were healthier, with more resistance to not only disease but parasites,

feeding raw cow's milk over replacer.

I suppose the answer is that, you can live on pastuerized milk, but it

definitally is not optimal, as our experiences feeding the kids in

particular proved out.

Vickie

Meadowbrook Farm

Fidelity Hill Nubians

Dennis,

The point is still not whether or not they used waste milk. The point is

very simple. The milk was PASTEURIZED and the calves didn't die.

[Guest guest]

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Do you folks feed pasteurized colostrum?

No, I don't personally feed pasteurized colostrom. My goats typically get

raw colostrom and raw milk from their mom. Just because I don't personally

feed pasteurized colostrom, doesn't mean I don't have knowledge of it. I've

never seen China, but I'm fairly certain it exist. I've learned about it's

existence from other people who have experienced it.

And besides you have read other posts today from folks who have fed

pasteurized colostrom. I own Angora goats and am well acquainted with a

group called Upstate Goat Producers, which is comprised of people with every

possible level of goat husbandry experience. We are passionate about our

little goaties and talk " goat " regularly. In fact, last evening a close goat

owner friend called me very excited that her Nubian just gave birth to

triplets. As we were speaking on the phone she was pasteurizing colostrom

for their first feeding. I didn't have to be there doing it with her to know

it was actually happening. She will also raise these babies on pasteurized

milk as she has countless other kids in the past. I could give numerous

examples of folks pasteurizing colostrom, but I don't think it's necessary.

It's fairly common knowledge among farmers.

<<< In reality how many dairy calves did you feed today? In the " perfect

world " sentence you sound like you feed lots of them,IMO. >>>

I didn't feed any today. Yesterday either. I think that one of my very

best resources of information is the dairy farmer I get my raw milk from.

He's been milking and raising cows since he could walk as did his father and

grandfather. He is well educated and is in touch with other dairy farmers on

a regular basis. He is well aware of what's happening in the dairy farm

industry much like a doctor or teacher keeps up with the latest in their

field. When I asked him what he fed his calves, he said they get colostrom

form their mother for the first feeding, then milk replacer. He introduces

solid foods at ten or so days. He said even though he didn't pasteurize his

colostrom, he knew of many dairy farmers that did because of certain

diseases passed through the milk to the calf. Just because he doesn't

pasteurize his own colostrom, doesn't prevent him from having the knowledge

that it is done by others in the dairy industry.

Another great resource for information is your local library. You will

likely find some books on the very subject of dairy science, which will give

a good indication of what dairy farmers are up to.

I gave a number of references I found on the web of farmers who were

feeding calves pasteurized colostrom and/or milk. I only gave a few. There

are numerous references and testimonies of people who are doing so. Just

because I didn't physically participate in their experience doesn't prevent

me from gaining the knowledge which they chose to share. We can't experience

everything in life. Some things can be learned because someone tells us.

<<< Do you manage

a farm/dairy? >>>>

I do not manage a dairy. I have Alpine does that are pets. One was raised

on raw colostrom and milk replacer, the other raised on pasteurized

colostrom and milk replacer. I have two Angora does which were orphans. I

don't know if they got colostrom at all, but they were raised on milk

replacer. I have other Angora and Pygmy goats that were raised on raw

colostrom and raw milk. I prefer to let the doe raise my goats naturally if

at all possible. I think it's best, but I know that if a situation arises

where they can't be raised on raw colostrom/raw milk they won't die if I

give them pasteurized colostrom/milk. BTW, if it's pertinent to the

discussion, I've never had a goat die in the seven years that I've had

goats. They are growing to maturity and reproducing, whether raised on raw

or pasteurized.

<<< How do you know pasteurized colostrum is better than no

colostrum? What facts and assumptions are you making? Dennis >>>

Since folks that raise kids and calves and other mammals for that matter

go to great lengths to make sure they get colostrom, whether it be raw or

pasteurized, I'm assuming they consider it of great value. I don't think you

can find many that wouldn't feel colostrom is one of the most important

factors in raising healthy animals. Yes, raw in most cases is best, but not

always feasible. Dairy goat farmer's frequently freeze and save extra

colostrom in the event that they may need it in the future. Very valuable

stuff.... Am I assuming too much? Perhaps. Any scientific data available?

Probably. Do I want to take the time to find it? Not at the moment. Real

life testimonies of farmers who believe giving pasteurized colostrom is

better than giving none at all is good enough for me.

In addition, Dennis, I sometimes worry that things said are taken

personally. In the grand scheme of life it's not particularly relevant if

calves drink pasteurized milk or pickle juice. I esteem you highly as a

person. I gather you are involved with a farmstead of some sort and do have

a cow(s) and chickens of your own. (I have chickens too BTW.) I wish you

great happiness and enjoy what you add to our conversations. I just felt I

needed to say that. I hope our cyber food fights are not offensive to anyone

Carmen