guaifenesin

[Guest guest]

Phil,

I will post every month or so on my status. You can find all of the

information on the Guaifenesin protocal by just typing it in your web

search. Also, Dr St Amand wrote a book on the therapy.

> Bob

>

> Please keep us informed. How does the guaifensin work?

>

> Phil

> Guaifenesin

>

>

> >

> > Hello Group,

> > It has been a while since I posted and I will try to give you all

a

> > heads up on my past 5 months. I did the

> > Heparin/Imuplus/Oliveleaf/T3/Adreneal/ Licorice/$$$$$$$$$ etc...

> > thing for quite a while. I got some benefit after a couple

months.

> > What I thought was feeling better. Then the process shifted again

and

> > I totally crashed. I began to realize that this approach while

> > provides some benefit, overall it was a drop in the bucket. Now

don't

> > get me wrong it has helped a few. But those of us who fall in the

> > category of being progressive, lose weight, fatigue, terrible

nauseau

> > just isn't happening.

> > About 7 weeks ago I pulled the plug on everything and started the

> > Guaifenesin protocal outlined by Dr St Amand. The first 3 weeks I

> >

[Guest guest]

lou,

I am taking Guai right now..It has been a couple of months and I haven't

noticed anything yet...I'm sure I am not blocking and I am at 3600mg...so I

don't know why I am responding. I haven't heard anything negative about it

not working or anything...How long have you been on it and what is your

dosage?

Take care,

Suzanne

[Guest guest]

Hi Suzanne,

I'm on 800mg daily and I feel like I am cycling but I feel better a lot more

than I feel bad lol. I belong to a support group on Egroups, GuaiSupport and

it's great to havce someone to tlak to about it. And I've been on since

August off and on ..... no doctor, no mapper, all on my own.

Lou

>From: " SUZANNE L MAYBELL " <MAYCROSS@...>

>Reply-egroups

><egroups>

>Subject: Re: Guaifenesin

>Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2000 20:04:18 -0600

>

> lou,

>

>I am taking Guai right now..It has been a couple of months and I haven't

>noticed anything yet...I'm sure I am not blocking and I am at 3600mg...so I

>don't know why I am responding. I haven't heard anything negative about it

>not working or anything...How long have you been on it and what is your

>dosage?

>

>Take care,

>Suzanne

>

>

>

>

>This list is intended for patients to share personal experiences with each

>other, not to give medical advice. If you are interested in any treatment

>discussed here, please consult your doctor.

>

_________________________________________________________________________

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[Guest guest]

Lou -

I tried this and my FM pain got much worse. make sure

you are not using any salicylates with this - any

herbal remedies will cancel the effect.

Best, Jennie

--- Lou <stockdalegirl@...> wrote:

>

> Hello everyone. I'm new, joined last night and

> wonder if anyone is tryin

> Guafenesin??? I've had FM since a hysterectomy in 84

> and so far the

> guaifenesin is the only thing that has helped me at

> all.

>

> MAry Lou

>

>

>

_________________________________________________________________________

> Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at

> http://www.hotmail.com.

>

> Share information about yourself, create your own

> public profile at

> http://profiles.msn.com.

>

>

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

a asks how she can find a doctor in her area who knows about guai and

mapping.

The answer is not an easy one. Go to the www.guaidoc.com site and see if

there is one listed there in your area.

Or you can do it the way I did before Dr.St. Amand's book came out. I copied

everything I could that I thought my doctor would read and I gave it to him.

When he realized how safe gaui was he wrote me a prescription. I was not

mapped, I based my dose purely on my symptoms and got help from the folks on

the guai support list. You can do this on your own. It is harder but you

don't need a doctor for it. It is better if your doctor knows what you are

doing so that he can help you get through painful times. I was lucky and

didn't need that sort of help.

Gretchen

[Guest guest]

Margret,

Does everyone experience the degree of burning that you have described in

your email when you are taking guaif.?

Is there not any test that you could take to find out if phosphate build-up

is the problem.

Thanks Jill

[Guest guest]

> Margret,

> Does everyone experience the degree of burning that you have

described in

> your email when you are taking guaif.?

> Is there not any test that you could take to find out if phosphate

build-up

> is the problem.

> Thanks Jill

Hi Jill,

No not everyone. Not a lot of people do have the burning mouth. Most

people do have the burning, gunky eyes and urine in a heavy cycle. A

lot of people talk about burning feet even before reversal with

Guaifenesin. What ever the worst symptom before Guaifenesin will be

the worst in reversal. If your worst symptom is fatigue,insommnia,

pain or whatever will be the worst.

No there is no test, too many variables.

You could do a Guai trial yourself..if you do not have FM all you

will get is a runny nose. If you have FM you will get worse..when you

hit the right dose. You will, however, be reverse cycling to better.

A good massage therapist or chiropractor can feel abnormal areas. It

is NOT the trigger points that are mapped but the lumps abd bunps.

A tip for mapping is that the earliest site to reverse in most

patients is the left thigh. When the left thigh is examined it is

often described as one on the most tender areas of the body. On

proper dosage this is the first to clear and as soon as one month or

at least partially in that time. The dose is either too low or the

person is blocked by salicylate, if there is at least no partial

clearing.

Margaret

[Guest guest]

Hi Jeff,

> I am about to start on this drug.

Did you know has a guaifenesin group that's great.

Also, this group is huge at 1500 with lots of experts and is not

http://maelstrom.stjohns.edu/archives/Guai-Support.html

Plus, I'm on my forth year of guai'

Bob Joy , http://pages.cthome.net/xx/guait.htm

[Guest guest]

> I am about to start on this drug. One person posted that she had

> been on this for 11 months but no opinion as to benefit. Can we

have

> one for the sake of the group--not to mention my sake?

> I don't mean to sound contrarian or combative--especially in my

> first post to this group-- but as for the message at the bottom in

> terms of " consulting the doctor on any treatment, " there are many

> treatments they don't even know about (which would include

> Kutapressin, Guaifenesin, Imunovir, and undoubtedly others), so in

> those cases I say " s_ _ _ _ 'em. " (doctors, ie.). Yes, of course you

> need to know potential risks and interactions, but most reasonably

> intelligent persons can handle these issues if they are

responsiblly

> minded. --Jeff, stealth virus positive, CFIDS for decades

[Guest guest]

> I am about to start on this drug. One person posted that she had

> been on this for 11 months but no opinion as to benefit. Can we

have

> one for the sake of the group--not to mention my sake?

> I don't mean to sound contrarian or combative--especially in my

> first post to this group-- but as for the message at the bottom in

> terms of " consulting the doctor on any treatment, " there are many

> treatments they don't even know about (which would include

> Kutapressin, Guaifenesin, Imunovir, and undoubtedly others), so in

> those cases I say " s_ _ _ _ 'em. " (doctors, ie.). Yes, of course you

> need to know potential risks and interactions, but most reasonably

> intelligent persons can handle these issues if they are

responsiblly

> minded. --Jeff, stealth virus positive, CFIDS for decades

Jeff, In my humble opinion, this is by far the best answer,not just

for any particular subgroup, but for everyone with CFS/FM. My wife

and I both have this dreaded disease. For me its been 10 years and

for her its been five. Yesterday, after three months on the

protocal, it happened for my wife. A completely normal day! For me,

it will take longer. It's very difficult to convince people of this.

(Understandably). My suggestion is to read the archives at

http://www.linkcounter.com/go.php?linkid=42273 and look for progress

reports. Compare this to the archives of any other group. The proof

is in the pudding. If this gets you interested, buy the book and read

it.

It's a tough protocal because you get worse before you get

better. I think now after 5 months I am as good as I was when I

started, but it's been very tough at times. It's critically

important to know and understand the protocol and to do it

correctly. If you don't you will fail. If you do it correctly and

for as long as it takes, you will succeeed. It's as simple as that.

Dan

[Guest guest]

Jeff,

Dr. St. Amand, the major proponent of using guaifenesin for the

treatment of fibromyalgia, found that it was good at expelling

inorganic phosphates, Pi, from the body. From cell physiology it has

been found that in an acidic cellular environment there is a greater

accumulation of Pi. While many people with FMS/CFIDS have found good

results taking guaifenesin, I believe that it is a lifetime regimen.

When they stop taking guai the symptoms eventually return. One key, I

believe, is to restore the alkalinity to the cell so that the Pi is

not accumulating to begin with.

I wish you the best success with your experimentation. Looking

forward to seeing some positive results posted to the group.

Remember, consult with your doctor first In this day of

litigation everything must carry a disclaimer for protection.

All the best,

Jim

clements@...

Fibromyalgia: A hypothesis of etiology

http://www.xmission.com/~total/temple/index.html

> I am about to start on this drug. One person posted that she had

> been on this for 11 months but no opinion as to benefit. Can we have

> one for the sake of the group--not to mention my sake?

> I don't mean to sound contrarian or combative--especially in my

> first post to this group-- but as for the message at the bottom in

> terms of " consulting the doctor on any treatment, " there are many

> treatments they don't even know about (which would include

> Kutapressin, Guaifenesin, Imunovir, and undoubtedly others), so in

> those cases I say " s_ _ _ _ 'em. " (doctors, ie.). Yes, of course you

> need to know potential risks and interactions, but most reasonably

> intelligent persons can handle these issues if they are responsiblly

> minded. --Jeff, stealth virus positive, CFIDS for decades

[Guest guest]

> > I am about to start on this drug. One person posted that she had

> > been on this for 11 months but no opinion as to benefit. Can we

have

> > one for the sake of the group--not to mention my sake?

> > I don't mean to sound contrarian or combative--especially in my

> > first post to this group-- but as for the message at the bottom

in

> > terms of " consulting the doctor on any treatment, " there are many

> > treatments they don't even know about (which would include

> > Kutapressin, Guaifenesin, Imunovir, and undoubtedly others), so

in

> > those cases I say " s_ _ _ _ 'em. " (doctors, ie.). Yes, of course

you

> > need to know potential risks and interactions, but most

reasonably

> > intelligent persons can handle these issues if they are

responsiblly

> > minded. --Jeff, stealth virus positive, CFIDS for decades

[Guest guest]

Hi -

Re the post on Guai last week - I tried this for a

while last year for my FM pain. It increased so much

in the first week that I had to discontinue the

product, which I understand is normal if you really

need to take it. I just wasn't strong enough. Since

then I have started taking plaquenil which has really

helped my FM pain, so I haven't tried Guai again. But

both my internist and my rheumatologist were not

opposed to me using it if I wanted - they said it is a

benign treatment that does help some people, although

they said the percentage of their patients helped was

not high.

That's about all I know - Jennie

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

This particular idea that Phoshpate accumulation is behind the mess called

CFS/FM has apparently been disproven by 's study. So the mechanism

must be different. There are different ideas about this and I got an email

from a guy who swears that combining undenatured whey protein with Guai is

the key toward quicker

results. Go figure.... Jeff >>>

Jeff,

I am only aware of one study Dr. did with regards to Guai, so if we

are referring to different studies please excuse the misinerpretation. Dr.

's study was done before the importance of abstaining from all forms

of salicylates (except for foods, but including herbal supplements, topical

preparations with herbal ingredients, etc.) was knoen, therefore it was

fundamentally unsound. The protocol per St. Amand requires strict avoidance

of all forms of salicylates, which is one of the aspects of the protocol

that make it difficult for some. I took Guai for almost two years, and

could definitely see changes in my " map " of the fms lumps to which St. Amand

refers when i inadvertently got some exposure to salicylates. When i was

totally free of salicylates, and at my correct cycling dose, my maps

noticeably improved.

I'm no longer on it because my correct cycling dose was removing heavy

metals as well as phosphates, and i was becoming more debilitated, as my

poorly funtioning gut/liver and kidneys could not excrete all the toxins

that were being released fast enough. so i am working on improving my

liver/gut function as well as my immune system so that i can handle the

release of the mercury and lead, particularly, that are stored in large

amounts in my tissues and organs. (Yes, I have been found to be mercury

toxic and suffered severe lead poisoning as a baby, and neither was being

releasd until starting guai - maybe another potential use for guai down the

long road of research)

donna in NC

PS - Cheney staes that Guai is a cellular detoxicant (which is what happened

in my case), and so is undenatured whey, or rather glutathione which the

whey is supposed to increase, therefore the combination of the two makes for

pretty potent medicine in my opinion. And it could be another reason why my

" detox " was so strong at the correct dose, for i was taking both at the same

time.

[Guest guest]

> Hi -

> Re the post on Guai last week - I tried this for a

> while last year for my FM pain. It increased so much

> in the first week that I had to discontinue the

> product, which I understand is normal if you really

> need to take it. I just wasn't strong enough. Since

> then I have started taking plaquenil which has really

> helped my FM pain, so I haven't tried Guai again. But

> both my internist and my rheumatologist were not

> opposed to me using it if I wanted - they said it is a

> benign treatment that does help some people, although

> they said the percentage of their patients helped was

> not high.

>

> That's about all I know - Jennie

>

>Thanks much for the input. Jeff>

> __________________________________________________

>

[Guest guest]

> This particular idea that Phoshpate accumulation is behind the mess

called

> CFS/FM has apparently been disproven by 's study. So the

mechanism

> must be different. There are different ideas about this and I got

an email

> from a guy who swears that combining undenatured whey protein with

Guai is

> the key toward quicker

> results. Go figure.... Jeff >>>

>

> Jeff,

> I am only aware of one study Dr. did with regards to Guai,

so if we

> are referring to different studies please excuse the

misinerpretation. Dr.

> 's study was done before the importance of abstaining from

all forms

> of salicylates (except for foods, but including herbal supplements,

topical

> preparations with herbal ingredients, etc.) was knoen, therefore it

was

> fundamentally unsound. The protocol per St. Amand requires strict

avoidance

> of all forms of salicylates, which is one of the aspects of the

protocol

> that make it difficult for some. I took Guai for almost two years,

and

> could definitely see changes in my " map " of the fms lumps to which

St. Amand

> refers when i inadvertently got some exposure to salicylates. When

i was

> totally free of salicylates, and at my correct cycling dose, my maps

> noticeably improved.

>

> I'm no longer on it because my correct cycling dose was removing

heavy

> metals as well as phosphates, and i was becoming more debilitated,

as my

> poorly funtioning gut/liver and kidneys could not excrete all the

toxins

> that were being released fast enough. so i am working on improving

my

> liver/gut function as well as my immune system so that i can handle

the

> release of the mercury and lead, particularly, that are stored in

large

> amounts in my tissues and organs. (Yes, I have been found to be

mercury

> toxic and suffered severe lead poisoning as a baby, and neither was

being

> releasd until starting guai - maybe another potential use for guai

down the

> long road of research)

>

> donna in NC

>

> PS - Cheney staes that Guai is a cellular detoxicant (which is what

happened

> in my case), and so is undenatured whey, or rather glutathione

which the

> whey is supposed to increase, therefore the combination of the two

makes for

> pretty potent medicine in my opinion. And it could be another

reason why my

> " detox " was so strong at the correct dose, for i was taking both at

the same

> time.

>>Hmmmmmm...Velly Intellesting....!!! Thank you!!! Jeff>>

[Guest guest]

If you want further info on guaifenesin which Amand doesn't talk about,

I suggest you look at the following web page:

http://web.mit.edu/london/www/guai.html

Guaifenesin is a propanediol derivative, and these drugs act as

central-acting skeletal muscle relaxants by selectively depressing

transmission of nerve impulses at the internuncial neurons of the

spinal cord, brainstem, and subcortical regions of the brain. At low

doses they act to relax hypertonic muscles and to lower response to

sensory stimuli, i.e. pain. Robaxin, a commonly prescribed muscle

relaxant, is also in that class of drugs, and is very chemically

related to guaifenesin (it is a " carbamate " of guaifenesin, a form that

is preferred, since it doesn't get metabolized and excreted as rapidly

as guaifenesin).

> that were being released fast enough. so i am working on improving my

> liver/gut function as well as my immune system so that i can handle

> the release of the mercury and lead, particularly, that are stored

> in large amounts in my tissues and organs. (Yes, I have been found > to be

mercury toxic and suffered severe lead poisoning as a baby,

> and neither was being releasd until starting guai - maybe another

> potential use for guai down the long road of research)

Then I suggest you look for other drugs. Guaifenesin is likely not to

affect any heavy metals, considering that probenecid, another

uricosuric drug, doesn't affect heavy metal excretion either, and both

guaifenesin and probenecid's actions are blocked by salicylates, so

they likely affect the kidneys in the same manner.

On the contrary, guaifenesin's actions might actually increase heavy

metal retention. I know someone who was responding to guaifenesin, who

then did urinary tests comparing being on and off guaifenesin. Not

only did the tests not show any difference in phosphate or other

mineral excretion, but to his surprise it showed that excretion of

heavy metals, especially lead and aluminum, was decreased. I suggest

if you are trying to detox heavy metals, you might want to do a similar

urinary comparison.

> PS - Cheney staes that Guai is a cellular detoxicant

Unlikely. Guaifenesin is quickly metabolized within 20 minutes and

rapidly excreted from the body. This is why it's mainly used as a

muscle paralyzer in surgery on animals by vets, i.e. it's effects wear

off quickly after surgery. It's not used in humans, mainly because of

it's hemolytic effect. I.e., it breaks down red blood cells. At low

doses this effect might be beneficial to some people, i.e. to reduce

platelet aggregation. At high doses, this might be harmful, especially

if combined with other supplements and drugs that have similar effects,

i.e. antioxidants such pycnogenol and ginko, MSM, vitamin E, and

heparin which all have such an effect. Herbal handbooks warn against

taking guaifenesin if you are prone to bleeding problems.

Guaifenesin affects mineral excretion by blocking their reabsorption by

the kidneys, thereby releasing them into the urine rather than keeping

them in the blood. Any effect on cells would therefore be quite

indirect. And although the study has been claimed to be

flawed, it should be noted that if you look at the urinary tests from

that study, while no change in phosphate was detected, there is about a

33% increase in calcium excretion. I know someone who took guaifenesin

and felt awful, and then later discovered he was calcium deficient, so

people might want to be aware of this effect. Additionally, a study

has shown that some people with CFS actually might be misdiagnosed, and

instead have phosphate diabetes, a condition with similar symptoms to

CFS, which is caused by the kidneys not retaining enough phosphates.

If guaifenesin actually was able to increase phosphate excretion (and

there is no proof of this), it could actually be harmful to these

people. Btw, as my web page mentions, there is no proof anyway that

excess phosphate could be responsible for any of the symptoms of

fibromyalgia.

Mark London

MRL@...

[Guest guest]

Hi,

Alkalinity, hmmmm. The major metabolite of Guaifenesin is lactic

acid. Are you sure Guaifenesin creates an alkaline environment.

>

> Jeff,

>

> Dr. St. Amand, the major proponent of using guaifenesin for

the

> treatment of fibromyalgia, found that it was good at expelling

> inorganic phosphates, Pi, from the body. From cell physiology it

has

> been found that in an acidic cellular environment there is a

greater

> accumulation of Pi. While many people with FMS/CFIDS have found

good

> results taking guaifenesin, I believe that it is a lifetime

regimen.

> When they stop taking guai the symptoms eventually return. One

key, I

> believe, is to restore the alkalinity to the cell so that the Pi is

> not accumulating to begin with.

>

> I wish you the best success with your experimentation. Looking

> forward to seeing some positive results posted to the group.

>

> Remember, consult with your doctor first In this day of

> litigation everything must carry a disclaimer for protection.

>

> All the best,

> Jim

> clements@x...

> Fibromyalgia: A hypothesis of etiology

> http://www.xmission.com/~total/temple/index.html

>

>

[Guest guest]

To be exact, the metabolite is B-(2-methoxyphenoxy) lactic acid, and

the metabolite is found in the urine, not in the cells.

> >

> > Jeff,

> >

> > Dr. St. Amand, the major proponent of using guaifenesin for

> the

> > treatment of fibromyalgia, found that it was good at expelling

> > inorganic phosphates, Pi, from the body. From cell physiology it

> has

> > been found that in an acidic cellular environment there is a

> greater

> > accumulation of Pi. While many people with FMS/CFIDS have found

> good

> > results taking guaifenesin, I believe that it is a lifetime

> regimen.

> > When they stop taking guai the symptoms eventually return. One

> key, I

> > believe, is to restore the alkalinity to the cell so that the Pi is

> > not accumulating to begin with.

> >

> > I wish you the best success with your experimentation. Looking

> > forward to seeing some positive results posted to the group.

> >

> > Remember, consult with your doctor first In this day of

> > litigation everything must carry a disclaimer for protection.

> >

> > All the best,

> > Jim

> > clements@x

> > Fibromyalgia: A hypothesis of etiology

> > http://www.xmission.com/~total/temple/index.html

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Hello, . I quickly read your Guaifenisin article; I am sorry you have been

through so much. However, one of the gists I seem to get - correct me if I'm

wrong - is that Magnesium, correctly

balanced with calcium - will do largely the same thing.

I've been on guai for two months, with an initial energy dip (but not too bad),

a high, and then a steady drop. I attribute much of this to lack of discipline;

the fact that I'm getting to bed at

2 and waking 11-12, and have done a lot of running around to find a half-decent

practioner here, have taken a toll. But so has, I'm thinking now, slacking off

on the Mg and B12.

When I started Guai, I dropped Mg Glycinate from Metagenics for another brand -

an oxide - because it was cheaper and easier to swallow. As soon as I started

Guai, I got constipation - many would

expect as such, but that was not a previous symptom for me. I restarted the

glycinate under a dietician's urging two days ago, and today I got up like a

double-decker bus ran over me. I wonder

if this is Mg kicking in, because I dropped Guai this week in favor of Milk

Thistle. (I've had high liver enzymes since I've been sick; the dietician said

the thistle might fix this in 4 weeks.)

Also, I haven't been shooting up with B12 too much. Before, it was 3 times/wk.

Last week, it was once, if that. It's an odd mentality - you don't like to drug

yourself or feel like you're

dependent on drugs, so you don't take the ones you need.

Your article interested me because my FM is minor, my CFS is major; and the Mg

and B12 I felt were major helpers before I started Guai. It also hints - hints

- that the immune system is helped by

all this. Anecdotally we know this for allergies, etc., but you're talking

about killing mycoplasma (were you tested? Why aren't you on antibiotics?). I

say this because it would be interesting

if the guys at Scripps/SUNY doing the new study did PCRS for the suspected

viruses as well as immune panels; we could then see, as you mentioned, who is

being helped from what and how - i.e., sort

the bodies out.

'Nice bit of writing, and I hope you continue to clear and feel better.

- N. in CA

+ for stealth, C. Pneumoniae, Candidas now and thenm past EBV titers, sticky

blood, some FM, whacked liver, whacked brain!

[Guest guest]

I agree with everything had to say. Guaifenesin got rid of my

phosphate deposits; helping a great deal with pain, heart palpitations, and

dry eyes; but like most patients that was just one part of my illness.

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 6/3/01 11:08:33 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 2276@...

writes:

> I agree with everything had to say. Guaifenesin got rid of my

> phosphate deposits; helping a great deal with pain, heart palpitations, and

> dry eyes; but like most patients that was just one part of my illness.

>

>

>

HI ,

Could you tell me what phosphate deposits are? My phosphorous is always high

but I dont think that this is the same thing? How do you know if your

phosphates are elevated?

KRISTINA

" If we all worked on the assumption that what is

accepted as true is really true, there would be little hope of advance. "

Orville

[Guest guest]

Thanks for the enthusiastic response so far. Either I have solved the

riddle of guaifenesin and a lot of people are going to have to change

the way they think or I need you guys to help me get this sorted out.

One or two of you have suggested that I should have given a direct

URL to my paper, so here it is.

/files/RTFWeb%

20Fibroguai.htm

Good reading,

>

> The recent correspondence points up the almost total confusion that

> exists regarding the role of guaifenesin in treating fibromyalgia.

I

> have spent over a decade researching and experimenting with agents

> that share some of the effects of guaifenesin and in response to

this

> situation I have written a paper entitled FIBROMYALGIA &

GUAIFENESIN -

> THE RIGHT DRUG FOR THE WRONG REASON.

>

> In describing the FM syndrome from 1985 onwards, I have been saying

> that an important feature of it was calcium phosphate deposits.

The

> response which I got from every single medical professional was

> complete disbelief and of course for many years that included

> disbelief about the existence of the syndrome. Well, after six

> years, the American College of Rheumatologists formulated the

> diagnosis and the rest is history. As to the deposits, the

disbelief

> continued. When I found out three months ago that Dr St Amand had

> been working in parallel to me all that time, it was the first

moment

> that I knew that anyone else in the world shared my views.

>

> I mailed him immediately and offered to share my work with him,

> because I could see from his website that he did not have the whole

> picture. His description of the illness was the best I had ever

> read -- in fact the only description I have ever seen that I could

> endorse myself, he had realised the importance of hypoglycaemia, as

I

> had done myself at quite an early stage, and guaifenesin was an

> improvement on the substances that I had been testing myself.

>

> However, his description of how guaifenesin works was clearly

> flawed. For example, if I increase my dose of guaifenesin, my

> clearance pains will increase as soon as the drug gets in my

> bloodstream -- about 45 minutes after taking. This would be quite

> impossible if the drug were working the way he says it does because

> it would take many, many hours for my kidneys to lower blood

> phosphate levels. I have proposed a better theory which meets all

of

> the problems which his theory raises, but that is all in my paper

so

> I won't repeat it here. He also refuses to advise magnesium

> supplementation when all the evidence points to low tissue levels

of

> magnesium in all of the fatigue syndromes -- not just FMS.

> Furthermore, magnesium has always been the standard treatment for

> calcium phosphate deposits and a lot of the people who post on

> message boards find that they benefit from magnesium

supplementation,

> so he is ignoring the experience of researchers and rheumatologists

> as well as many of his own patients. Presumably, he doesn't want

> guai to share the credit.

>

> I first heard about guaifenesin in 1994 (though unfortunately the

> article didn't give any information about why it was being used)

but

> when I read that there was going to be a double-blind trial

conducted

> by Dr , who is one of the world's foremost authorities on

FMS,

> I decided to wait for the results. The trial was, as we all know,

a

> complete failure for Dr St Amand. Not a single patient got

better.

> Where I'm coming from is that I want to work towards getting the

> calcium phosphate aspect which he and I have both been working on

> independently taken seriously by the medical profession, and I do

not

> want the project to be put back another seven years by another

failed

> or inconclusive drug trial.

>

> Dr St Amand would dearly like his work to be accepted by

> rheumatologists, but as things stand they are unlikely to be

> convinced. I sent my paper to him in mid-April and I asked him for

> any corrections which he would like me to make or any input which

he

> might have, but despite a reminder, he has not come up with

> anything. Perhaps he thinks I'm right -- who knows?

>

> I have placed my paper in the Files section on this board - just

> click on Files in the box on the left of the screen. The response

> that I have received so far has been remarkably appreciative not

just

> about what I have to say about magnesium and guaifenesin but also

> about other sections, such as Fatigue or Neuroendocrine and

Vascular

> Insufficiency, and this has given me the courage to expose it to

some

> of the eggheads that I know are denizens of this group.

>

> So here it is, folks. Am I right or what? If you think not,

please

> straighten me out.

>

> Best wishes to all,

>

>

[Guest guest]

This is interesting, although I need more time to better digest it.

Do you believe this applies to people with CFIDS who do not have FMS?

Cindi

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 2/3/02 3:06:24 AM !!!First Boot!!!,

writes:

<<

Thanks, .

Could a doc mistake them for fatty cysts? How does one wind up w. too many

phosphates- if that is not too big a question? I am totally ignorant here.

Adrienne

>>

I'm not sure since I dont know what a fatty cyst looks/feels like. I think

its very likely that a doctor who is experienced in " mapping " a person's

body for phosphate lumps would be able to distinguish between the two.

Typically if a person has phosphates there will be several (maybe 20-40

total?) that a doctor can feel with his fingers on the legs, arms, and back.

I was never able to learn to feel these lumps in my skin; but guai

definitely works wonders for some people. There's no blood test or anything

for it. I remember dr St Amand found this massive one in my butt cheek and

sure enough after a few days on the guai I felt it starting to break up right

where he mapped it. Then by the second week my urine got this really toxic

smell which lasted for a few weeks and must have been the phosphates as they

were coming out. How a person winds up where they arent getting phosphates

out of their system is similar to mercury in my opinion. It can be a root

cause of illness or it can be the result of the body's detox being allready

compromised from years of illness. Whatever the case; I think everyone with

fibro and CFS; but especially fibro; should try guaifenesin since there are

virtually no side effects (except the flare ups if its working) and its very

cheap.