Guest guest Posted August 2, 2005 Report Share Posted August 2, 2005 Well, you've presented some good arguments, but we haven't heard from managers at AMR, R/M, ETMC, Acadian, and other large companies. And I predict we never will. I know some good managers in those companies and some very bad ones. But they're not interested in this list or in debating these issues. As for management theory, it is well documented that use of good management theory pays off. Study the Japanese car manufacturers, the computer industry, General Electric, Chrysler, and other companies where good management practices have changed the company culture, increased retention and productivity, and so forth. The information is out there. I would LOVE for one EMS manager to go to bat for management and show how s/he has used good management techniques to improve employee satisfaction and productivity. There must be SOMEBODY out there. And yes, if one only listens to one side of the story, one gets a skewed picture. But keep in mind, the sorts of things that most of these employees relate demonstrate pure Theory X management, the worst model. Employees are management's only really valuable asset. Bells, whistles and toys are just pieces of junk in the making. An employee who feels that he's just a pawn on the company's chessboard has little incentive to go above and beyond the minimum requirements, while one who feels that he makes a difference and that's appreciated will go that extra mile for the company. You say that you don't hand out attaboys, but, of course you do. You do it all the time. Your employees know you appreciate them. That's why they stay with you. So you understand more about great management than you let on, and you apply it every day. EMS is a tough business, and it's difficult to get employees to buy into it. But it can be done. Having a happy place to work, supporting the troops when they do a good job, and not sending them directly to the guillotine for minor screwups are all a part of it. Communication is also essential. When you cannot give them that raise even though you'd like to, show them why. It's all about leadership and teamwork. Thanks for encouraging me to keep sounding off! LOL. Gene > Man you cut deep! However, just once I would like to see someone put out > there the managers point of view. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 2, 2005 Report Share Posted August 2, 2005 Mike, Thanks for jumping in and for the insights into AMR's programs. At least they have SOME improvement programs in place, and that's good. As for how to deal with the " it's all about me " generation, I offer the following thoughts. It's really all about the corporation. As a result of the economic policies that have developed over the last two decades, wages for workers have not kept pace with what it takes to live comfortably, so that both partners in a family have to work. This was almost unheard of when I was growing up. Now, the urgency of pulling in enough income to feed and clothe the kids, pay for all the ridiculous claptrap they have to have in school, and get health care for them, leave most folks no choice but to seek the best paying jobs. Families are struggling as never before since the Depression, and our government's policies toward workers only gets worse. It's fortunate that medic jobs cannot be outsourced, or we'd be in worse condition than we are. But the reimbursement policies of Medicare and other insurance carriers keep EMS at the bottom of the ladder in wages. Companies can still make it, but when their management betrays its employees, as we have seen recently, it gives the worker little incentive for loyalty. It may be time for a new labor movement in the healthcare industry. Texas would be a very difficult place to get that started because of our traditional animosity toward labor organizations. So, bottom line, I don't know how to deal with the current situation with EMS pay. Gene G. > > Hey Gene, I've watched this thread with some interest over the last week and > I have some comments to add. Some of these comments may be similar to > yours, but there have been SOO many messages that I just cant keep up with > what's already been said! > > First, I agree with the general sentiment of all your posts. Leadership and > management are HUGE disappointments in this industry, because we generally > promote the best medic and not the guy with the best leadership abilities. > > Second, NO formal education as a rule. > > I am a former AMR manager, and former Rural/Metro Manager and I can tell you > that AMR has the foundation of an excellent training program, but some of > the topics are misguided. Another flaw is external value. AMR doesn't seem > to grasp the idea that there is value in attending courses NOT provided by > AMR. I can say, that I received MUCH more education from that company > regarding leadership and management than I EVER would have working for a 3rd > city service or an FD. I know a number of FD based systems that have > excellent leaders, but the basis for their education as a leader is the Fire > Officer courses. Not bad mouthing that course by any means, but we know > there is MUCH better material out there. > > As far as retention is concerned, AMR has given lots of lip service to this > topic, and studies LOTS of statistics (as usual) but nothing definitive has > been done about it. > > What's the fundamental problem with retention? Like " Tater " said, it boils > down to needs, and there is not one answer to that NEEDS question. > > You have to be a student of PEOPLE to understand that different generations > have MANY different needs to address. > > If you were born between 1940 and 1960 you grew up in the generation of > Voluntary Military service, where you joined one company and retired with a > gold watch after 25 years. > > 1960 -1975 We began to believe that the workforce was a place to gain > experience to better us; people moved from company to company seeking the > promotion that wasn't available at company#1. Each move meant a move UP, > and a better benefits package, and a higher 401k match. > > 1975 till today, yet another NEW idea. Look for the better deal right NOW. > Who will pay me more NOW, and who will pay me the most and give me the most > time off for the money? It's a cultural mindset of all about me. > > KNOWING these mindsets exist, how do we tailor a retention program? > > Mike > > > > Re: Employee Retention? > > Well, you've presented some good arguments, but we haven't heard from > managers at AMR, R/M, ETMC, Acadian, and other large companies. And I > predict > we never will. I know some good managers in those companies and some very > bad > ones. But they're not interested in this list or in debating these issues. > > > As for management theory, it is well documented that use of good management > theory pays off. Study the Japanese car manufacturers, the computer > industry, > General Electric, Chrysler, and other companies where good management > practices have changed the company culture, increased retention and > productivity, and > so forth. The information is out there. > > I would LOVE for one EMS manager to go to bat for management and show how > s/he has used good management techniques to improve employee satisfaction > and > productivity. There must be SOMEBODY out there. > > And yes, if one only listens to one side of the story, one gets a skewed > picture. But keep in mind, the sorts of things that most of these > employees > relate demonstrate pure Theory X management, the worst model. > > Employees are management's only really valuable asset. Bells, whistles and > toys are just pieces of junk in the making. > > An employee who feels that he's just a pawn on the company's chessboard has > little incentive to go above and beyond the minimum requirements, while one > who > feels that he makes a difference and that's appreciated will go that extra > mile for the company. > > You say that you don't hand out attaboys, but, of course you do. You do it > all the time. Your employees know you appreciate them. That's why they > stay with you. So you understand more about great management than you let > on, > and you apply it every day. > > EMS is a tough business, and it's difficult to get employees to buy into it. > But it can be done. Having a happy place to work, supporting the troops > when they do a good job, and not sending them directly to the guillotine for > minor screwups are all a part of it. Communication is also essential. > When > you cannot give them that raise even though you'd like to, show them why. > It's > all about leadership and teamwork. > > Thanks for encouraging me to keep sounding off! LOL. > > Gene > > > > > > > > > Man you cut deep! However, just once I would like to see someone put out > > there the managers point of view. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 2, 2005 Report Share Posted August 2, 2005 Hey Gene, I've watched this thread with some interest over the last week and I have some comments to add. Some of these comments may be similar to yours, but there have been SOO many messages that I just cant keep up with what's already been said! First, I agree with the general sentiment of all your posts. Leadership and management are HUGE disappointments in this industry, because we generally promote the best medic and not the guy with the best leadership abilities. Second, NO formal education as a rule. I am a former AMR manager, and former Rural/Metro Manager and I can tell you that AMR has the foundation of an excellent training program, but some of the topics are misguided. Another flaw is external value. AMR doesn't seem to grasp the idea that there is value in attending courses NOT provided by AMR. I can say, that I received MUCH more education from that company regarding leadership and management than I EVER would have working for a 3rd city service or an FD. I know a number of FD based systems that have excellent leaders, but the basis for their education as a leader is the Fire Officer courses. Not bad mouthing that course by any means, but we know there is MUCH better material out there. As far as retention is concerned, AMR has given lots of lip service to this topic, and studies LOTS of statistics (as usual) but nothing definitive has been done about it. What's the fundamental problem with retention? Like " Tater " said, it boils down to needs, and there is not one answer to that NEEDS question. You have to be a student of PEOPLE to understand that different generations have MANY different needs to address. If you were born between 1940 and 1960 you grew up in the generation of Voluntary Military service, where you joined one company and retired with a gold watch after 25 years. 1960 -1975 We began to believe that the workforce was a place to gain experience to better us; people moved from company to company seeking the promotion that wasn't available at company#1. Each move meant a move UP, and a better benefits package, and a higher 401k match. 1975 till today, yet another NEW idea. Look for the better deal right NOW. Who will pay me more NOW, and who will pay me the most and give me the most time off for the money? It's a cultural mindset of all about me. KNOWING these mindsets exist, how do we tailor a retention program? Mike Re: Employee Retention? Well, you've presented some good arguments, but we haven't heard from managers at AMR, R/M, ETMC, Acadian, and other large companies. And I predict we never will. I know some good managers in those companies and some very bad ones. But they're not interested in this list or in debating these issues. As for management theory, it is well documented that use of good management theory pays off. Study the Japanese car manufacturers, the computer industry, General Electric, Chrysler, and other companies where good management practices have changed the company culture, increased retention and productivity, and so forth. The information is out there. I would LOVE for one EMS manager to go to bat for management and show how s/he has used good management techniques to improve employee satisfaction and productivity. There must be SOMEBODY out there. And yes, if one only listens to one side of the story, one gets a skewed picture. But keep in mind, the sorts of things that most of these employees relate demonstrate pure Theory X management, the worst model. Employees are management's only really valuable asset. Bells, whistles and toys are just pieces of junk in the making. An employee who feels that he's just a pawn on the company's chessboard has little incentive to go above and beyond the minimum requirements, while one who feels that he makes a difference and that's appreciated will go that extra mile for the company. You say that you don't hand out attaboys, but, of course you do. You do it all the time. Your employees know you appreciate them. That's why they stay with you. So you understand more about great management than you let on, and you apply it every day. EMS is a tough business, and it's difficult to get employees to buy into it. But it can be done. Having a happy place to work, supporting the troops when they do a good job, and not sending them directly to the guillotine for minor screwups are all a part of it. Communication is also essential. When you cannot give them that raise even though you'd like to, show them why. It's all about leadership and teamwork. Thanks for encouraging me to keep sounding off! LOL. Gene > Man you cut deep! However, just once I would like to see someone put out > there the managers point of view. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 2, 2005 Report Share Posted August 2, 2005 I agree whole-heartedly. The issue of “good” pay transcends the private vs. public lines as well, there are city run departments in Texas with pay LOWER than what the “privates” pay. But WE, the EMS community, continue to accept these jobs. Why? Because no matter how much those of us who’ve been around the block protest, there will always be a new 19-year-old EMT school graduate willing to do it, because the job is “cool”. I agree with you about apathetic managers too. The problem is, when a good one does rise through the ranks, the old dogs get rid of them as fast as they can, to keep from “looking bad”. Moral of this rant? Enroll in EVERY management course that you can. You can learn something from everyone, even if it’s what NOT to do! If I could be so bold as to make a recommendation… Fitch and Associates sponsors a Leadership course through The American Ambulance Association that is AWESOME. They do the same course for Communications Managers through NAED. Its not cheap, but well worth the money. Mike Re: Employee Retention? Well, you've presented some good arguments, but we haven't heard from managers at AMR, R/M, ETMC, Acadian, and other large companies. And I predict we never will. I know some good managers in those companies and some very bad ones. But they're not interested in this list or in debating these issues. As for management theory, it is well documented that use of good management theory pays off. Study the Japanese car manufacturers, the computer industry, General Electric, Chrysler, and other companies where good management practices have changed the company culture, increased retention and productivity, and so forth. The information is out there. I would LOVE for one EMS manager to go to bat for management and show how s/he has used good management techniques to improve employee satisfaction and productivity. There must be SOMEBODY out there. And yes, if one only listens to one side of the story, one gets a skewed picture. But keep in mind, the sorts of things that most of these employees relate demonstrate pure Theory X management, the worst model. Employees are management's only really valuable asset. Bells, whistles and toys are just pieces of junk in the making. An employee who feels that he's just a pawn on the company's chessboard has little incentive to go above and beyond the minimum requirements, while one who feels that he makes a difference and that's appreciated will go that extra mile for the company. You say that you don't hand out attaboys, but, of course you do. You do it all the time. Your employees know you appreciate them. That's why they stay with you. So you understand more about great management than you let on, and you apply it every day. EMS is a tough business, and it's difficult to get employees to buy into it. But it can be done. Having a happy place to work, supporting the troops when they do a good job, and not sending them directly to the guillotine for minor screwups are all a part of it. Communication is also essential. When you cannot give them that raise even though you'd like to, show them why. It's all about leadership and teamwork. Thanks for encouraging me to keep sounding off! LOL. Gene > Man you cut deep! However, just once I would like to see someone put out > there the managers point of view. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 2, 2005 Report Share Posted August 2, 2005 , you are absolutely right....that set of classes with Fitch is excellent. I attended it several years ago, and we called it " an experience " and it sure was. GREAT learning....great instructors.....great classes. --------- Re: Employee Retention? Well, you've presented some good arguments, but we haven't heard from managers at AMR, R/M, ETMC, Acadian, and other large companies. And I predict we never will. I know some good managers in those companies and some very bad ones. But they're not interested in this list or in debating these issues. As for management theory, it is well documented that use of good management theory pays off. Study the Japanese car manufacturers, the computer industry, General Electric, Chrysler, and other companies where good management practices have changed the company culture, increased retention and productivity, and so forth. The information is out there. I would LOVE for one EMS manager to go to bat for management and show how s/he has used good management techniques to improve employee satisfaction and productivity. There must be SOMEBODY out there. And yes, if one only listens to one side of the story, one gets a skewed picture. But keep in mind, the sorts of things that most of these employees relate demonstrate pure Theory X management, the worst model. Employees are management's only really valuable asset. Bells, whistles and toys are just pieces of junk in the making. An employee who feels that he's just a pawn on the company's chessboard has little incentive to go above and beyond the minimum requirements, while one who feels that he makes a difference and that's appreciated will go that extra mile for the company. You say that you don't hand out attaboys, but, of course you do. You do it all the time. Your employees know you appreciate them. That's why they stay with you. So you understand more about great management than you let on, and you apply it every day. EMS is a tough business, and it's difficult to get employees to buy into it. But it can be done. Having a happy place to work, supporting the troops when they do a good job, and not sending them directly to the guillotine for minor screwups are all a part of it. Communication is also essential. When you cannot give them that raise even though you'd like to, show them why. It's all about leadership and teamwork. Thanks for encouraging me to keep sounding off! LOL. Gene > Man you cut deep! However, just once I would like to see someone put out > there the managers point of view. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 2, 2005 Report Share Posted August 2, 2005 Gene, One potential solution is to get educators to understand and better educate EMT's and Paramedics about how the industry works. Instead of only teaching the legal ramifications of patient documentation (which rarely occurs with any paramedic or EMT) start teaching about documentation and medical necessity...helping the technician to understand the proper charting not only protects you legally and provides other health care providers with vital information regarding your patient...but charted LEGALLY and Properly it also helps your employer get reimbursed which leads to more money available which, in a lot of systems would lead to more wages. The business aspect of EMS is not taught in the clinical side and as such, I can get a medic that writes a mediocre SOAP chart out of school that is not at all clear on showing the medical necessity of the transport although it was there without a doubt at the time time of transport. And, before anyone get off on the track of telling medics to document things that didn't happen or not document things that did....when I see " patient walked to stretcher " I don't ask why did you put that in the run report....I ask why the patient walked!!!!! Either they shouldn't have waliked or the reason they did, if properly explained, can keep medical necessity from being thrown out.... Just my thoughts. Dudley Re: Employee Retention? > > Well, you've presented some good arguments, but we haven't heard from > managers at AMR, R/M, ETMC, Acadian, and other large companies. And I > predict > we never will. I know some good managers in those companies and some very > bad > ones. But they're not interested in this list or in debating these issues. > > > As for management theory, it is well documented that use of good management > theory pays off. Study the Japanese car manufacturers, the computer > industry, > General Electric, Chrysler, and other companies where good management > practices have changed the company culture, increased retention and > productivity, and > so forth. The information is out there. > > I would LOVE for one EMS manager to go to bat for management and show how > s/he has used good management techniques to improve employee satisfaction > and > productivity. There must be SOMEBODY out there. > > And yes, if one only listens to one side of the story, one gets a skewed > picture. But keep in mind, the sorts of things that most of these > employees > relate demonstrate pure Theory X management, the worst model. > > Employees are management's only really valuable asset. Bells, whistles and > toys are just pieces of junk in the making. > > An employee who feels that he's just a pawn on the company's chessboard has > little incentive to go above and beyond the minimum requirements, while one > who > feels that he makes a difference and that's appreciated will go that extra > mile for the company. > > You say that you don't hand out attaboys, but, of course you do. You do it > all the time. Your employees know you appreciate them. That's why they > stay with you. So you understand more about great management than you let > on, > and you apply it every day. > > EMS is a tough business, and it's difficult to get employees to buy into it. > But it can be done. Having a happy place to work, supporting the troops > when they do a good job, and not sending them directly to the guillotine for > minor screwups are all a part of it. Communication is also essential. > When > you cannot give them that raise even though you'd like to, show them why. > It's > all about leadership and teamwork. > > Thanks for encouraging me to keep sounding off! LOL. > > Gene > > > > > > > > > Man you cut deep! However, just once I would like to see someone put out > > there the managers point of view. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 3, 2005 Report Share Posted August 3, 2005 I don't mean to spark another debate on this, but don't the EMS Education Programs work for us? WE are THEIR customers, but yet, this isn't the first time this lack of education has been noted. Why don't they change to meet the industry needs? Re: Employee Retention? > > Well, you've presented some good arguments, but we haven't heard from > managers at AMR, R/M, ETMC, Acadian, and other large companies. And I > predict > we never will. I know some good managers in those companies and some very > bad > ones. But they're not interested in this list or in debating these issues. > > > As for management theory, it is well documented that use of good management > theory pays off. Study the Japanese car manufacturers, the computer > industry, > General Electric, Chrysler, and other companies where good management > practices have changed the company culture, increased retention and > productivity, and > so forth. The information is out there. > > I would LOVE for one EMS manager to go to bat for management and show how > s/he has used good management techniques to improve employee satisfaction > and > productivity. There must be SOMEBODY out there. > > And yes, if one only listens to one side of the story, one gets a skewed > picture. But keep in mind, the sorts of things that most of these > employees > relate demonstrate pure Theory X management, the worst model. > > Employees are management's only really valuable asset. Bells, whistles and > toys are just pieces of junk in the making. > > An employee who feels that he's just a pawn on the company's chessboard has > little incentive to go above and beyond the minimum requirements, while one > who > feels that he makes a difference and that's appreciated will go that extra > mile for the company. > > You say that you don't hand out attaboys, but, of course you do. You do it > all the time. Your employees know you appreciate them. That's why they > stay with you. So you understand more about great management than you let > on, > and you apply it every day. > > EMS is a tough business, and it's difficult to get employees to buy into it. > But it can be done. Having a happy place to work, supporting the troops > when they do a good job, and not sending them directly to the guillotine for > minor screwups are all a part of it. Communication is also essential. > When > you cannot give them that raise even though you'd like to, show them why. > It's > all about leadership and teamwork. > > Thanks for encouraging me to keep sounding off! LOL. > > Gene > > > > > > > > > Man you cut deep! However, just once I would like to see someone put out > > there the managers point of view. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 3, 2005 Report Share Posted August 3, 2005 Dudley, Excellent points, all. I have been teaching just what you describe for years. The importance cannot be underestimated. When you read my next post about a Medicare fraud case, you'll see that what you've said is right on target. Gene > Gene, > > One potential solution is to get educators to understand and better > educate EMT's and Paramedics about how the industry works. Instead of > only teaching the legal ramifications of patient documentation (which > rarely occurs with any paramedic or EMT) start teaching about > documentation and medical necessity...helping the technician to > understand the proper charting not only protects you legally and > provides other health care providers with vital information regarding > your patient...but charted LEGALLY and Properly it also helps your > employer get reimbursed which leads to more money available which, in a > lot of systems would lead to more wages. > > The business aspect of EMS is not taught in the clinical side and as > such, I can get a medic that writes a mediocre SOAP chart out of school > that is not at all clear on showing the medical necessity of the > transport although it was there without a doubt at the time of > transport. > > And, before anyone get off on the track of telling medics to document > things that didn't happen or not document things that did....when I see > " patient walked to stretcher " I don't ask why did you put that in the > run report....I ask why the patient walked!!!!! Either they shouldn't > have walked or the reason they did, if properly explained, can keep > medical necessity from being thrown out.... > > Just my thoughts. > > Dudley > > Re: Employee Retention? > > Mike, > > Thanks for jumping in and for the insights into AMR's programs. At > least > they have SOME improvement programs in place, and that's good. > > As for how to deal with the " it's all about me " generation, I offer the > following thoughts. > > It's really all about the corporation. As a result of the economic > policies > that have developed over the last two decades, wages for workers have > not > kept pace with what it takes to live comfortably, so that both partners > in a > family have to work. This was almost unheard of when I was growing > up. Now, > the urgency of pulling in enough income to feed and clothe the kids, > pay for > all the ridiculous claptrap they have to have in school, and get health > care > for them, leave most folks no choice but to seek the best paying jobs. > > Families are struggling as never before since the Depression, and our > government's > policies toward workers only gets worse. It's fortunate that medic > jobs cannot > > be outsourced, or we'd be in worse condition than we are. But the > reimbursement policies of Medicare and other insurance carriers keep > EMS at the > bottom > of the ladder in wages. > > Companies can still make it, but when their management betrays its > employees, > as we have seen recently, it gives the worker little incentive for > loyalty. > > > It may be time for a new labor movement in the healthcare industry. > Texas > would be a very difficult place to get that started because of our > traditional > animosity toward labor organizations. > > So, bottom line, I don't know how to deal with the current situation > with EMS > pay. > > Gene G. > > > > > > > > > Hey Gene, I've watched this thread with some interest over the last > week and > > I have some comments to add. Some of these comments may be similar to > > yours, but there have been SOO many messages that I just cant keep up > with > > what's already been said! > > > > First, I agree with the general sentiment of all your posts. > Leadership and > > management are HUGE disappointments in this industry, because we > generally > > promote the best medic and not the guy with the best leadership > abilities. > > > > Second, NO formal education as a rule. > > > > I am a former AMR manager, and former Rural/Metro Manager and I can > tell you > > that AMR has the foundation of an excellent training program, but > some of > > the topics are misguided. Another flaw is external value. AMR > doesn't seem > > to grasp the idea that there is value in attending courses NOT > provided by > > AMR. I can say, that I received MUCH more education from that company > > regarding leadership and management than I EVER would have working > for a 3rd > > city service or an FD. I know a number of FD based systems that have > > excellent leaders, but the basis for their education as a leader is > the Fire > > Officer courses. Not bad mouthing that course by any means, but we > know > > there is MUCH better material out there. > > > > As far as retention is concerned, AMR has given lots of lip service > to this > > topic, and studies LOTS of statistics (as usual) but nothing > definitive has > > been done about it. > > > > What's the fundamental problem with retention? Like " Tater " said, it > boils > > down to needs, and there is not one answer to that NEEDS question. > > > > You have to be a student of PEOPLE to understand that different > generations > > have MANY different needs to address. > > > > If you were born between 1940 and 1960 you grew up in the generation > of > > Voluntary Military service, where you joined one company and retired > with a > > gold watch after 25 years. > > > > 1960 -1975 We began to believe that the workforce was a place to gain > > experience to better us; people moved from company to company seeking > the > > promotion that wasn't available at company#1. Each move meant a move > UP, > > and a better benefits package, and a higher 401k match. > > > > 1975 till today, yet another NEW idea. Look for the better deal right > NOW. > > Who will pay me more NOW, and who will pay me the most and give me > the most > > time off for the money? It's a cultural mindset of all about me. > > > > KNOWING these mindsets exist, how do we tailor a retention program? > > > > Mike > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 3, 2005 Report Share Posted August 3, 2005 " , " wrote: > I don't mean to spark another debate on this, but don't the EMS Education > Programs work for us? WE are THEIR customers, but yet, this isn't the first > time this lack of education has been noted. Why don't they change to meet > the industry needs? I believe that you are making a very broad generalization regarding EMS Education Programs. You are saying that ALL programs are deficient in what they are teaching. This is simply not true. There are some very, very good programs available. Yes, there are some very poor quality education programs, as well. I, among several other people, am a National Registry Representative in Texas. I see many, many students who come to take the NR test. I know those who do very well and those who do poorly, and usually what education program they came through. Although I will not name those good ones or those poor ones that I am aware of, I firmly believe that there are still some very good programs, programs which far exceed others in their instruction and education offered. I can speak for Gene Gandy, Jane Hill, and myself when I say that when we were all 3 at Tyler Junior College, we all worked very hard to provide the very best training and educational opportunities available, and I believe this is what we delivered. There are still other institutions out there doing this. " Meet the industry needs " you say. I say that we need to meet the patient's needs. We need to teach whatever is necessary to medically help the patient in the very best and most efficient way. So programs do, some programs don't. I urge each person who is to take EMS courses to study the programs available. Talk to people knowledgable regarding the education opportunities available and the quality of the program. Do not simply go to a program because it is the cheapest. Go to one where you will get the very best education. Select a program with quality equipment. Apply yourself to the very best of your abilities and make up your mind that you don't simply want to be a certified EMT, Intermediate, or Paramedic, make up you mind that you want to be the very best in these fields. I guess I have said my .07 cents worth, sorry for rambling but education is something that I take very seriously. Have a Great Day! Education Coordinator Champion EMS Longview, Texas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 3, 2005 Report Share Posted August 3, 2005 Before I jump into this one, I would love to hear a lot more about what the educators are doing for us. Don't worry, I will jump in and will certainly take a lot of heat for it. Henry " , " wrote: > I don't mean to spark another debate on this, but don't the EMS Education > Programs work for us? WE are THEIR customers, but yet, this isn't the first > time this lack of education has been noted. Why don't they change to meet > the industry needs? > > Re: Employee Retention? > > > > Well, you've presented some good arguments, but we haven't heard > from > > managers at AMR, R/M, ETMC, Acadian, and other large companies. And > I > > predict > > we never will. I know some good managers in those companies and > some very > > bad > > ones. But they're not interested in this list or in debating these > issues. > > > > > > As for management theory, it is well documented that use of good > management > > theory pays off. Study the Japanese car manufacturers, the computer > > industry, > > General Electric, Chrysler, and other companies where good management > > practices have changed the company culture, increased retention and > > productivity, and > > so forth. The information is out there. > > > > I would LOVE for one EMS manager to go to bat for management and show > how > > s/he has used good management techniques to improve employee > satisfaction > > and > > productivity. There must be SOMEBODY out there. > > > > And yes, if one only listens to one side of the story, one gets a > skewed > > picture. But keep in mind, the sorts of things that most of these > > employees > > relate demonstrate pure Theory X management, the worst model. > > > > Employees are management's only really valuable asset. Bells, > whistles and > > toys are just pieces of junk in the making. > > > > An employee who feels that he's just a pawn on the company's > chessboard has > > little incentive to go above and beyond the minimum requirements, > while one > > who > > feels that he makes a difference and that's appreciated will go that > extra > > mile for the company. > > > > You say that you don't hand out attaboys, but, of course you do. > You do it > > all the time. Your employees know you appreciate them. That's why > they > > stay with you. So you understand more about great management than > you let > > on, > > and you apply it every day. > > > > EMS is a tough business, and it's difficult to get employees to buy > into it. > > But it can be done. Having a happy place to work, supporting the > troops > > when they do a good job, and not sending them directly to the > guillotine for > > minor screwups are all a part of it. Communication is also > essential. > > When > > you cannot give them that raise even though you'd like to, show them > why. > > It's > > all about leadership and teamwork. > > > > Thanks for encouraging me to keep sounding off! LOL. > > > > Gene > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Man you cut deep! However, just once I would like to see someone > put out > > > there the managers point of view. > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 3, 2005 Report Share Posted August 3, 2005 In a message dated 8/3/2005 7:19:25 PM Central Daylight Time, ksfuzzy@... writes: If the EMS education system tought everything that is needed in the field the class would be twice as long or more. And as one thing leads to another the price of the class wold greatly increase. Don't get me wrong I think that all EMS students and some that are not in classes need a lot more information. But as an instructor I am confined to the constraints of the system. I do hope you do not teach spelling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 3, 2005 Report Share Posted August 3, 2005 Dudley, So you want a dumber paramedic? Is that what you're saying? Don't bother to teach them good medicine, just teach them the minimums that your service can pay for? But do teach them how to write a good report so that they can write a good description of their negligence? I'll be careful not to drive through your service area. G > , > > <<< " Meet the industry needs " you say. I say that we need to meet the > patient's needs. We need to teach whatever is necessary to medically help the > patient in the very best and most efficient way. So programs do, some programs > don't.>>> > > This is the gist of what I was talking about. EMS Operations are your > customer...because we purchase the commodity that you produce. Go ahead and > produce the " Teach whatever is necessary to medically help the patient in the very > best and most efficient way " ...and it becomes something that the industry > cannot pay to the level these individuals expect because they have knowledge > and abilities beyond what the industry can bear. > > So...the EMS operations folks get more than they need/can afford and the > students get positions that do not meet their expectations so operators are > disgruntled and graduate students are dis-illusioned....quickly starting to look > for areas where they can be appropriately compensated for their skill set > while doing skills and tasks far beyond what we need to do in the field.... > > Dudley > > Re: Employee Retention? > > > " , " wrote: > > > I don't mean to spark another debate on this, but don't the EMS Education > > Programs work for us? WE are THEIR customers, but yet, this isn't the > first > > time this lack of education has been noted. Why don't they change to meet > > the industry needs? > I believe that you are making a very broad generalization regarding EMS > Education Programs. You are saying that ALL programs are deficient in what > they > > are teaching. This is simply not true. > > There are some very, very good programs available. Yes, there are some very > poor quality education programs, as well. I, among several other people, > am > a National Registry Representative in Texas. I see many, many students who > come to take the NR test. I know those who do very well and those who do > poorly, and usually what education program they came through. Although I > will > not > name those good ones or those poor ones that I am aware of, I firmly believe > that there are still some very good programs, programs which far exceed > others > in their instruction and education offered. > > I can speak for Gene Gandy, Jane Hill, and myself when I say that when we > were all 3 at Tyler Junior College, we all worked very hard to provide the > very > best training and educational opportunities available, and I believe this is > what we delivered. There are still other institutions out there doing > this. > > " Meet the industry needs " you say. I say that we need to meet the patient's > needs. We need to teach whatever is necessary to medically help the patient > in the very best and most efficient way. So programs do, some programs > don't. > > I urge each person who is to take EMS courses to study the programs > available. Talk to people knowledgable regarding the education > opportunities > available > and the quality of the program. Do not simply go to a program because it is > the cheapest. Go to one where you will get the very best education. Select > a > program with quality equipment. Apply yourself to the very best of your > abilities and make up your mind that you don't simply want to be a certified > EMT, > Intermediate, or Paramedic, make up you mind that you want to be the very > best > in these fields. > > I guess I have said my .07 cents worth, sorry for rambling but education is > something that I take very seriously. > > Have a Great Day! > > > Education Coordinator > Champion EMS > Longview, Texas > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 3, 2005 Report Share Posted August 3, 2005 , I thank you for bringing the Education perspective to light, but no where in your post did you mention any of the points that Dudley or I were questioning. When will the EMS education programs begin to teach EVERYTHING about EMS, and not just the 50% that covers patient care? I agree with you, I too am involved in a number of different NR offerings in North Texas and Central Texas. I too have seen excellent candidates, and terrible candidates. National Registry does not, however, test on the ability to document a patient encounter from a medical, legal, or business standpoint. National Registry does not test the candidates knowledge of HIPPA, EMTALA or COBRA to a level of even basic functionality in the field. When was the last time you saw a CEVO or EVOC course done in a BASIC course? Maybe I'm just too far removed from initial training and I don't see this, but I have been on the hiring end of new graduates, and those basic things WERE NOT there. I'm open for more discussion on this subject, I'd even be willing sit in a round table over some chili one one of these days and brain storm this into a curriculum. Re: Employee Retention? " , " wrote: > I don't mean to spark another debate on this, but don't the EMS Education > Programs work for us? WE are THEIR customers, but yet, this isn't the first > time this lack of education has been noted. Why don't they change to meet > the industry needs? I believe that you are making a very broad generalization regarding EMS Education Programs. You are saying that ALL programs are deficient in what they are teaching. This is simply not true. There are some very, very good programs available. Yes, there are some very poor quality education programs, as well. I, among several other people, am a National Registry Representative in Texas. I see many, many students who come to take the NR test. I know those who do very well and those who do poorly, and usually what education program they came through. Although I will not name those good ones or those poor ones that I am aware of, I firmly believe that there are still some very good programs, programs which far exceed others in their instruction and education offered. I can speak for Gene Gandy, Jane Hill, and myself when I say that when we were all 3 at Tyler Junior College, we all worked very hard to provide the very best training and educational opportunities available, and I believe this is what we delivered. There are still other institutions out there doing this. " Meet the industry needs " you say. I say that we need to meet the patient's needs. We need to teach whatever is necessary to medically help the patient in the very best and most efficient way. So programs do, some programs don't. I urge each person who is to take EMS courses to study the programs available. Talk to people knowledgable regarding the education opportunities available and the quality of the program. Do not simply go to a program because it is the cheapest. Go to one where you will get the very best education. Select a program with quality equipment. Apply yourself to the very best of your abilities and make up your mind that you don't simply want to be a certified EMT, Intermediate, or Paramedic, make up you mind that you want to be the very best in these fields. I guess I have said my .07 cents worth, sorry for rambling but education is something that I take very seriously. Have a Great Day! Education Coordinator Champion EMS Longview, Texas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 3, 2005 Report Share Posted August 3, 2005 When I was at TJC, we had an advisory committee that was quite representative of the industry. And we had meetings, they made recommendations, and after the meeting was over the administrators did exactly what they wanted to without regard to the committee's recommendations. There were no educator types on the committee. But the administrators had their way. I left the college world because I became completely sick and tired with dealing with college administrators. In their defense, the rules set up by the Legislature and Higher Education Coordinating Board are so arcane that nobody can understand them. But they are not in the business of teaching people what they need to know. They are in the business of Education, an entirely different thing. In other words, their true agenda is the perpetuation of their own jobs and the bureaucracy that goes with them. The business of education is a business about everything except great instruction. One of the interesting things about community colleges is that they have a gentlemen's agreement among the presidents that they will not compete with each other. That effectively keeps a great program from expanding and taking courses where the demand is. So, as Dudley knows, it's impossible to get courses added to the curriculum just because they're what's needed. Now, if you're rich (and you have to be to get on a college Board of Trustees) you might be able to exert some influence, but even then, the administrators will find a way to get around you. OK Dudley and Henry, I've switched from bashing EMS managers to college administrators. So many bad guys, so little time. Gene > And that is getting to the root of the issue...yes I do sit on advisory > committees...have for years....but what I want has to take a second seat to what > is mandated...and the groups that mandate these items are largely educators > and minimally operations folks....so I can advise all I want but if it takes > 800 hours to teach what is mandated and the program can only have students > for 830 hours....doesn't really matter what I want unless it is less than 30 > hours. > > Dudley > > Re: Employee Retention? > > > I'd like to jump in on this one if I may. > > If an EMS service does not get what they wish from any training program, its > the responsibility of that service to say so. All training programs have > advisory committees of one type or another. Join up. Get involved. Tell > the training programs what you do need if they are not meeting your needs. > Help them meet your goals. > > All must keep in mind one other thing when talking about content of any > level of training in EMS education. EMS educator serve many masters. The > operations folks do get the final result of the program, but local, > regional, state, and federal agencies mandate content. > > The bottom line is that we all must get involved if a " better product " is > required or desired. > > Just a couple of more pennies thrown into the mix...... > > Mike > Longview > > Re: Employee Retention? > > > " , " wrote: > > > I don't mean to spark another debate on this, but don't the EMS Education > > Programs work for us? WE are THEIR customers, but yet, this isn't the > > first > > time this lack of education has been noted. Why don't they change to meet > > the industry needs? > I believe that you are making a very broad generalization regarding EMS > Education Programs. You are saying that ALL programs are deficient in what > they > > are teaching. This is simply not true. > > There are some very, very good programs available. Yes, there are some very > poor quality education programs, as well. I, among several other people, > am > a National Registry Representative in Texas. I see many, many students who > come to take the NR test. I know those who do very well and those who do > poorly, and usually what education program they came through. Although I > will > not > name those good ones or those poor ones that I am aware of, I firmly believe > that there are still some very good programs, programs which far exceed > others > in their instruction and education offered. > > I can speak for Gene Gandy, Jane Hill, and myself when I say that when we > were all 3 at Tyler Junior College, we all worked very hard to provide the > very > best training and educational opportunities available, and I believe this is > what we delivered. There are still other institutions out there doing this. > > " Meet the industry needs " you say. I say that we need to meet the patient's > needs. We need to teach whatever is necessary to medically help the patient > in the very best and most efficient way. So programs do, some programs > don't. > > I urge each person who is to take EMS courses to study the programs > available. Talk to people knowledgeable regarding the education > opportunities > available > and the quality of the program. Do not simply go to a program because it is > the cheapest. Go to one where you will get the very best education. Select > a > program with quality equipment. Apply yourself to the very best of your > abilities and make up your mind that you don't simply want to be a certified > EMT, > Intermediate, or Paramedic, make up you mind that you want to be the very > best > in these fields. > > I guess I have said my .07 cents worth, sorry for rambling but education is > something that I take very seriously. > > Have a Great Day! > > > Education Coordinator > Champion EMS > Longview, Texas > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 3, 2005 Report Share Posted August 3, 2005 If the EMS education system tought everything that is needed in the field the class would be twice as long or more. And as one thing leads to another the price of the class wold greatly increase. Don't get me wrong I think that all EMS students and some that are not in classes need a lot more information. But as an instructor I am confined to the constraints of the system. " , " wrote: , I thank you for bringing the Education perspective to light, but no where in your post did you mention any of the points that Dudley or I were questioning. When will the EMS education programs begin to teach EVERYTHING about EMS, and not just the 50% that covers patient care? I agree with you, I too am involved in a number of different NR offerings in North Texas and Central Texas. I too have seen excellent candidates, and terrible candidates. National Registry does not, however, test on the ability to document a patient encounter from a medical, legal, or business standpoint. National Registry does not test the candidates knowledge of HIPPA, EMTALA or COBRA to a level of even basic functionality in the field. When was the last time you saw a CEVO or EVOC course done in a BASIC course? Maybe I'm just too far removed from initial training and I don't see this, but I have been on the hiring end of new graduates, and those basic things WERE NOT there. I'm open for more discussion on this subject, I'd even be willing sit in a round table over some chili one one of these days and brain storm this into a curriculum. Re: Employee Retention? " , " wrote: > I don't mean to spark another debate on this, but don't the EMS Education > Programs work for us? WE are THEIR customers, but yet, this isn't the first > time this lack of education has been noted. Why don't they change to meet > the industry needs? I believe that you are making a very broad generalization regarding EMS Education Programs. You are saying that ALL programs are deficient in what they are teaching. This is simply not true. There are some very, very good programs available. Yes, there are some very poor quality education programs, as well. I, among several other people, am a National Registry Representative in Texas. I see many, many students who come to take the NR test. I know those who do very well and those who do poorly, and usually what education program they came through. Although I will not name those good ones or those poor ones that I am aware of, I firmly believe that there are still some very good programs, programs which far exceed others in their instruction and education offered. I can speak for Gene Gandy, Jane Hill, and myself when I say that when we were all 3 at Tyler Junior College, we all worked very hard to provide the very best training and educational opportunities available, and I believe this is what we delivered. There are still other institutions out there doing this. " Meet the industry needs " you say. I say that we need to meet the patient's needs. We need to teach whatever is necessary to medically help the patient in the very best and most efficient way. So programs do, some programs don't. I urge each person who is to take EMS courses to study the programs available. Talk to people knowledgable regarding the education opportunities available and the quality of the program. Do not simply go to a program because it is the cheapest. Go to one where you will get the very best education. Select a program with quality equipment. Apply yourself to the very best of your abilities and make up your mind that you don't simply want to be a certified EMT, Intermediate, or Paramedic, make up you mind that you want to be the very best in these fields. I guess I have said my .07 cents worth, sorry for rambling but education is something that I take very seriously. Have a Great Day! Education Coordinator Champion EMS Longview, Texas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 3, 2005 Report Share Posted August 3, 2005 , <<< " Meet the industry needs " you say. I say that we need to meet the patient's needs. We need to teach whatever is necessary to medically help the patient in the very best and most efficient way. So programs do, some programs don't.>>> This is the gist of what I was talking about. EMS Operations are your customer...because we purchase the commodity that you produce. Go ahead and produce the " Teach whatever is necessary to medically help the patient in the very best and most efficient way " ...and it becomes something that the industry cannot pay to the level these individuals expect because they have knowledge and abilities beyond what the industry can bear. So...the EMS operations folks get more than they need/can afford and the students get positions that do not meet their expectations so operators are disgruntled and graduate students are dis-illusioned....quickly starting to look for areas where they can be appropriately compensated for their skill set while doing skills and tasks far beyond what we need to do in the field.... Dudley Re: Employee Retention? " , " wrote: > I don't mean to spark another debate on this, but don't the EMS Education > Programs work for us? WE are THEIR customers, but yet, this isn't the first > time this lack of education has been noted. Why don't they change to meet > the industry needs? I believe that you are making a very broad generalization regarding EMS Education Programs. You are saying that ALL programs are deficient in what they are teaching. This is simply not true. There are some very, very good programs available. Yes, there are some very poor quality education programs, as well. I, among several other people, am a National Registry Representative in Texas. I see many, many students who come to take the NR test. I know those who do very well and those who do poorly, and usually what education program they came through. Although I will not name those good ones or those poor ones that I am aware of, I firmly believe that there are still some very good programs, programs which far exceed others in their instruction and education offered. I can speak for Gene Gandy, Jane Hill, and myself when I say that when we were all 3 at Tyler Junior College, we all worked very hard to provide the very best training and educational opportunities available, and I believe this is what we delivered. There are still other institutions out there doing this. " Meet the industry needs " you say. I say that we need to meet the patient's needs. We need to teach whatever is necessary to medically help the patient in the very best and most efficient way. So programs do, some programs don't. I urge each person who is to take EMS courses to study the programs available. Talk to people knowledgable regarding the education opportunities available and the quality of the program. Do not simply go to a program because it is the cheapest. Go to one where you will get the very best education. Select a program with quality equipment. Apply yourself to the very best of your abilities and make up your mind that you don't simply want to be a certified EMT, Intermediate, or Paramedic, make up you mind that you want to be the very best in these fields. I guess I have said my .07 cents worth, sorry for rambling but education is something that I take very seriously. Have a Great Day! Education Coordinator Champion EMS Longview, Texas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 3, 2005 Report Share Posted August 3, 2005 I'd like to jump in on this one if I may. If an EMS service does not get what they wish from any training program, its the responsibility of that service to say so. All training programs have advisory committees of one type or another. Join up. Get involved. Tell the training programs what you do need if they are not meeting your needs. Help them meet your goals. All must keep in mind one other thing when talking about content of any level of training in EMS education. EMS educator serve many masters. The operations folks do get the final result of the program, but local, regional, state, and federal agencies mandate content. The bottom line is that we all must get involved if a " better product " is required or desired. Just a couple of more pennies thrown into the mix...... Mike Longview Re: Employee Retention? " , " wrote: > I don't mean to spark another debate on this, but don't the EMS Education > Programs work for us? WE are THEIR customers, but yet, this isn't the > first > time this lack of education has been noted. Why don't they change to meet > the industry needs? I believe that you are making a very broad generalization regarding EMS Education Programs. You are saying that ALL programs are deficient in what they are teaching. This is simply not true. There are some very, very good programs available. Yes, there are some very poor quality education programs, as well. I, among several other people, am a National Registry Representative in Texas. I see many, many students who come to take the NR test. I know those who do very well and those who do poorly, and usually what education program they came through. Although I will not name those good ones or those poor ones that I am aware of, I firmly believe that there are still some very good programs, programs which far exceed others in their instruction and education offered. I can speak for Gene Gandy, Jane Hill, and myself when I say that when we were all 3 at Tyler Junior College, we all worked very hard to provide the very best training and educational opportunities available, and I believe this is what we delivered. There are still other institutions out there doing this. " Meet the industry needs " you say. I say that we need to meet the patient's needs. We need to teach whatever is necessary to medically help the patient in the very best and most efficient way. So programs do, some programs don't. I urge each person who is to take EMS courses to study the programs available. Talk to people knowledgable regarding the education opportunities available and the quality of the program. Do not simply go to a program because it is the cheapest. Go to one where you will get the very best education. Select a program with quality equipment. Apply yourself to the very best of your abilities and make up your mind that you don't simply want to be a certified EMT, Intermediate, or Paramedic, make up you mind that you want to be the very best in these fields. I guess I have said my .07 cents worth, sorry for rambling but education is something that I take very seriously. Have a Great Day! Education Coordinator Champion EMS Longview, Texas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 3, 2005 Report Share Posted August 3, 2005 Yes, that's a part of it, but the main part is the administrators kissing up to each other, scratching each other's backs, and screwing the faculty. They take theirs off the top and faculty and instruction get the crumbs. Faculty are second class. But, as you say, you'd better put butts in seats and your " retention " had better be high. So much for selective enrollment and getting rid of bozos who don't have a clue and never will have a clue. The counselors started putting anybody who didn't have a clue about what they wanted to do in our program. They never provided adequate administrative help (or any at all) so the department chair was a highly paid file clerk. Then they load you down with so many meetings where all that happens is mental masturbation, that you don't have time to prepare for instruction, but you're expected to exceed all standards for good instruction. And then when you can't keep your records up, they crucify you for not maintaining statistics on your " outcomes and success rates. " Education politics is vicious, and it's all so petty. I suppose that the more petty things become, the more vicious they become. Gene G. > Gene, > > Sooooo, by the " business " of Education, you mean put butt's in seats to get > contact hour dollars? > > Mike > --- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 3, 2005 Report Share Posted August 3, 2005 No Gene...that is not it at all....what I want is what I can afford and what is important for both patient care and what the market can bear...I DO NOT want the highest trained, most capable, physicians bow in their presence paramedics if no one can afford them... Dudley Re: Employee Retention? " , " wrote: > I don't mean to spark another debate on this, but don't the EMS Education > Programs work for us? WE are THEIR customers, but yet, this isn't the first > time this lack of education has been noted. Why don't they change to meet > the industry needs? I believe that you are making a very broad generalization regarding EMS Education Programs. You are saying that ALL programs are deficient in what they are teaching. This is simply not true. There are some very, very good programs available. Yes, there are some very poor quality education programs, as well. I, among several other people, am a National Registry Representative in Texas. I see many, many students who come to take the NR test. I know those who do very well and those who do poorly, and usually what education program they came through. Although I will not name those good ones or those poor ones that I am aware of, I firmly believe that there are still some very good programs, programs which far exceed others in their instruction and education offered. I can speak for Gene Gandy, Jane Hill, and myself when I say that when we were all 3 at Tyler Junior College, we all worked very hard to provide the very best training and educational opportunities available, and I believe this is what we delivered. There are still other institutions out there doing this. " Meet the industry needs " you say. I say that we need to meet the patient's needs. We need to teach whatever is necessary to medically help the patient in the very best and most efficient way. So programs do, some programs don't. I urge each person who is to take EMS courses to study the programs available. Talk to people knowledgable regarding the education opportunities available and the quality of the program. Do not simply go to a program because it is the cheapest. Go to one where you will get the very best education. Select a program with quality equipment. Apply yourself to the very best of your abilities and make up your mind that you don't simply want to be a certified EMT, Intermediate, or Paramedic, make up you mind that you want to be the very best in these fields. I guess I have said my .07 cents worth, sorry for rambling but education is something that I take very seriously. Have a Great Day! Education Coordinator Champion EMS Longview, Texas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 3, 2005 Report Share Posted August 3, 2005 And that is getting to the root of the issue...yes I do sit on advisory committees...have for years....but what I want has to take a second seat to what is mandated...and the groups that mandate these items are largely educators and minimally operations folks....so I can advise all I want but if it takes 800 hours to teach what is mandated and the program can only have students for 830 hours....doesn't really matter what I want unless it is less than 30 hours. Dudley Re: Employee Retention? I'd like to jump in on this one if I may. If an EMS service does not get what they wish from any training program, its the responsibility of that service to say so. All training programs have advisory committees of one type or another. Join up. Get involved. Tell the training programs what you do need if they are not meeting your needs. Help them meet your goals. All must keep in mind one other thing when talking about content of any level of training in EMS education. EMS educator serve many masters. The operations folks do get the final result of the program, but local, regional, state, and federal agencies mandate content. The bottom line is that we all must get involved if a " better product " is required or desired. Just a couple of more pennies thrown into the mix...... Mike Longview Re: Employee Retention? " , " wrote: > I don't mean to spark another debate on this, but don't the EMS Education > Programs work for us? WE are THEIR customers, but yet, this isn't the > first > time this lack of education has been noted. Why don't they change to meet > the industry needs? I believe that you are making a very broad generalization regarding EMS Education Programs. You are saying that ALL programs are deficient in what they are teaching. This is simply not true. There are some very, very good programs available. Yes, there are some very poor quality education programs, as well. I, among several other people, am a National Registry Representative in Texas. I see many, many students who come to take the NR test. I know those who do very well and those who do poorly, and usually what education program they came through. Although I will not name those good ones or those poor ones that I am aware of, I firmly believe that there are still some very good programs, programs which far exceed others in their instruction and education offered. I can speak for Gene Gandy, Jane Hill, and myself when I say that when we were all 3 at Tyler Junior College, we all worked very hard to provide the very best training and educational opportunities available, and I believe this is what we delivered. There are still other institutions out there doing this. " Meet the industry needs " you say. I say that we need to meet the patient's needs. We need to teach whatever is necessary to medically help the patient in the very best and most efficient way. So programs do, some programs don't. I urge each person who is to take EMS courses to study the programs available. Talk to people knowledgable regarding the education opportunities available and the quality of the program. Do not simply go to a program because it is the cheapest. Go to one where you will get the very best education. Select a program with quality equipment. Apply yourself to the very best of your abilities and make up your mind that you don't simply want to be a certified EMT, Intermediate, or Paramedic, make up you mind that you want to be the very best in these fields. I guess I have said my .07 cents worth, sorry for rambling but education is something that I take very seriously. Have a Great Day! Education Coordinator Champion EMS Longview, Texas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 3, 2005 Report Share Posted August 3, 2005 You might be surprised just how many decisions in EMS education are not made by EMS educators, but by bureaucrats who sit hundreds, if not thousands of miles away from the stations they affect. And that number will only increase in the future. Honestly, I agree with you. And I am glad to hear you do participate in advisory committees. I hope you continue. And I wish I could have better news in this arena, but many of our hands are tied by those above the classroom level. To improve the situation, we must change the mindset of those who control the training programs and the purse strings Mike Longview Re: Employee Retention? > > > " , " wrote: > >> I don't mean to spark another debate on this, but don't the EMS Education >> Programs work for us? WE are THEIR customers, but yet, this isn't the >> first >> time this lack of education has been noted. Why don't they change to >> meet >> the industry needs? > I believe that you are making a very broad generalization regarding EMS > Education Programs. You are saying that ALL programs are deficient in > what > they > > are teaching. This is simply not true. > > There are some very, very good programs available. Yes, there are some > very > poor quality education programs, as well. I, among several other people, > am > a National Registry Representative in Texas. I see many, many students > who > come to take the NR test. I know those who do very well and those who do > poorly, and usually what education program they came through. Although I > will > not > name those good ones or those poor ones that I am aware of, I firmly > believe > that there are still some very good programs, programs which far exceed > others > in their instruction and education offered. > > I can speak for Gene Gandy, Jane Hill, and myself when I say that when we > were all 3 at Tyler Junior College, we all worked very hard to provide the > very > best training and educational opportunities available, and I believe this > is > what we delivered. There are still other institutions out there doing > this. > > " Meet the industry needs " you say. I say that we need to meet the > patient's > needs. We need to teach whatever is necessary to medically help the > patient > in the very best and most efficient way. So programs do, some programs > don't. > > I urge each person who is to take EMS courses to study the programs > available. Talk to people knowledgable regarding the education > opportunities > available > and the quality of the program. Do not simply go to a program because it > is > the cheapest. Go to one where you will get the very best education. > Select > a > program with quality equipment. Apply yourself to the very best of your > abilities and make up your mind that you don't simply want to be a > certified > EMT, > Intermediate, or Paramedic, make up you mind that you want to be the very > best > in these fields. > > I guess I have said my .07 cents worth, sorry for rambling but education > is > something that I take very seriously. > > Have a Great Day! > > > Education Coordinator > Champion EMS > Longview, Texas > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 3, 2005 Report Share Posted August 3, 2005 I'd agree with the part about the politicians. As far as the college administrators, that's crosswise with their " mission statement. " They're BIG on mission statements. Their mission statement misstates the true agenda. That's all. Gene > Gene, > > You wrote about educators: > > <<< In other words, their true agenda is the perpetuation of their own jobs > and the bureaucracy that goes with them. >>> > > Can you name a field, worker, or position that this statement cannot be made > about? Maybe a President in the 2nd term? > > Dudley > > > Re: Employee Retention? > > > > > > I'd like to jump in on this one if I may. > > > > If an EMS service does not get what they wish from any training program, > its > > the responsibility of that service to say so. All training programs have > > advisory committees of one type or another. Join up. Get involved. Tell > > the training programs what you do need if they are not meeting your needs. > > Help them meet your goals. > > > > All must keep in mind one other thing when talking about content of any > > level of training in EMS education. EMS educator serve many masters. The > > operations folks do get the final result of the program, but local, > > regional, state, and federal agencies mandate content. > > > > The bottom line is that we all must get involved if a " better product " is > > required or desired. > > > > Just a couple of more pennies thrown into the mix...... > > > > Mike > > Longview > > > > Re: Employee Retention? > > > > > > " , " wrote: > > > > > I don't mean to spark another debate on this, but don't the EMS > Education > > > Programs work for us? WE are THEIR customers, but yet, this isn't the > > > first > > > time this lack of education has been noted. Why don't they change to > meet > > > the industry needs? > > I believe that you are making a very broad generalization regarding EMS > > Education Programs. You are saying that ALL programs are deficient in > what > > they > > > > are teaching. This is simply not true. > > > > There are some very, very good programs available. Yes, there are some > very > > poor quality education programs, as well. I, among several other people, > > am > > a National Registry Representative in Texas. I see many, many students > who > > come to take the NR test. I know those who do very well and those who do > > poorly, and usually what education program they came through. Although I > > will > > not > > name those good ones or those poor ones that I am aware of, I firmly > believe > > that there are still some very good programs, programs which far exceed > > others > > in their instruction and education offered. > > > > I can speak for Gene Gandy, Jane Hill, and myself when I say that when we > > were all 3 at Tyler Junior College, we all worked very hard to provide the > > very > > best training and educational opportunities available, and I believe this > is > > what we delivered. There are still other institutions out there doing > this. > > > > " Meet the industry needs " you say. I say that we need to meet the > patient's > > needs. We need to teach whatever is necessary to medically help the > patient > > in the very best and most efficient way. So programs do, some programs > > don't. > > > > I urge each person who is to take EMS courses to study the programs > > available. Talk to people knowledgeable regarding the education > > opportunities > > available > > and the quality of the program. Do not simply go to a program because it > is > > the cheapest. Go to one where you will get the very best education. > Select > > a > > program with quality equipment. Apply yourself to the very best of your > > abilities and make up your mind that you don't simply want to be a > certified > > EMT, > > Intermediate, or Paramedic, make up you mind that you want to be the very > > best > > in these fields. > > > > I guess I have said my .07 cents worth, sorry for rambling but education > is > > something that I take very seriously. > > > > Have a Great Day! > > > > > > Education Coordinator > > Champion EMS > > Longview, Texas > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 3, 2005 Report Share Posted August 3, 2005 Typically, they only mandate MINIMUM content (the feds, state and local). Mike _____ From: [mailto: ] On Behalf Of Mike Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 9:26 PM To: Subject: Re: Employee Retention? I'd like to jump in on this one if I may. If an EMS service does not get what they wish from any training program, its the responsibility of that service to say so. All training programs have advisory committees of one type or another. Join up. Get involved. Tell the training programs what you do need if they are not meeting your needs. Help them meet your goals. All must keep in mind one other thing when talking about content of any level of training in EMS education. EMS educator serve many masters. The operations folks do get the final result of the program, but local, regional, state, and federal agencies mandate content. The bottom line is that we all must get involved if a " better product " is required or desired. Just a couple of more pennies thrown into the mix...... Mike Longview Re: Employee Retention? " , " wrote: > I don't mean to spark another debate on this, but don't the EMS Education > Programs work for us? WE are THEIR customers, but yet, this isn't the > first > time this lack of education has been noted. Why don't they change to meet > the industry needs? I believe that you are making a very broad generalization regarding EMS Education Programs. You are saying that ALL programs are deficient in what they are teaching. This is simply not true. There are some very, very good programs available. Yes, there are some very poor quality education programs, as well. I, among several other people, am a National Registry Representative in Texas. I see many, many students who come to take the NR test. I know those who do very well and those who do poorly, and usually what education program they came through. Although I will not name those good ones or those poor ones that I am aware of, I firmly believe that there are still some very good programs, programs which far exceed others in their instruction and education offered. I can speak for Gene Gandy, Jane Hill, and myself when I say that when we were all 3 at Tyler Junior College, we all worked very hard to provide the very best training and educational opportunities available, and I believe this is what we delivered. There are still other institutions out there doing this. " Meet the industry needs " you say. I say that we need to meet the patient's needs. We need to teach whatever is necessary to medically help the patient in the very best and most efficient way. So programs do, some programs don't. I urge each person who is to take EMS courses to study the programs available. Talk to people knowledgable regarding the education opportunities available and the quality of the program. Do not simply go to a program because it is the cheapest. Go to one where you will get the very best education. Select a program with quality equipment. Apply yourself to the very best of your abilities and make up your mind that you don't simply want to be a certified EMT, Intermediate, or Paramedic, make up you mind that you want to be the very best in these fields. I guess I have said my .07 cents worth, sorry for rambling but education is something that I take very seriously. Have a Great Day! Education Coordinator Champion EMS Longview, Texas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 3, 2005 Report Share Posted August 3, 2005 I would like for someone to outline exactly what a " Paramedic " is, what they are worth (not what they are paid), and how education should approach the creation of a competent " Paramedic " . I am a Paramedic (certified in TX) and I see both sides of the tracks. Some managers expect PA-level medicine while others will chastise you for performing at or above the minimums. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 3, 2005 Report Share Posted August 3, 2005 Gene, Sooooo, by the " business " of Education, you mean put butt's in seats to get contact hour dollars? Mike Re: Employee Retention? > > > I'd like to jump in on this one if I may. > > If an EMS service does not get what they wish from any training program, its > the responsibility of that service to say so. All training programs have > advisory committees of one type or another. Join up. Get involved. Tell > the training programs what you do need if they are not meeting your needs. > Help them meet your goals. > > All must keep in mind one other thing when talking about content of any > level of training in EMS education. EMS educator serve many masters. The > operations folks do get the final result of the program, but local, > regional, state, and federal agencies mandate content. > > The bottom line is that we all must get involved if a " better product " is > required or desired. > > Just a couple of more pennies thrown into the mix...... > > Mike > Longview > > Re: Employee Retention? > > > " , " wrote: > > > I don't mean to spark another debate on this, but don't the EMS Education > > Programs work for us? WE are THEIR customers, but yet, this isn't the > > first > > time this lack of education has been noted. Why don't they change to meet > > the industry needs? > I believe that you are making a very broad generalization regarding EMS > Education Programs. You are saying that ALL programs are deficient in what > they > > are teaching. This is simply not true. > > There are some very, very good programs available. Yes, there are some very > poor quality education programs, as well. I, among several other people, > am > a National Registry Representative in Texas. I see many, many students who > come to take the NR test. I know those who do very well and those who do > poorly, and usually what education program they came through. Although I > will > not > name those good ones or those poor ones that I am aware of, I firmly believe > that there are still some very good programs, programs which far exceed > others > in their instruction and education offered. > > I can speak for Gene Gandy, Jane Hill, and myself when I say that when we > were all 3 at Tyler Junior College, we all worked very hard to provide the > very > best training and educational opportunities available, and I believe this is > what we delivered. There are still other institutions out there doing this. > > " Meet the industry needs " you say. I say that we need to meet the patient's > needs. We need to teach whatever is necessary to medically help the patient > in the very best and most efficient way. So programs do, some programs > don't. > > I urge each person who is to take EMS courses to study the programs > available. Talk to people knowledgeable regarding the education > opportunities > available > and the quality of the program. Do not simply go to a program because it is > the cheapest. Go to one where you will get the very best education. Select > a > program with quality equipment. Apply yourself to the very best of your > abilities and make up your mind that you don't simply want to be a certified > EMT, > Intermediate, or Paramedic, make up you mind that you want to be the very > best > in these fields. > > I guess I have said my .07 cents worth, sorry for rambling but education is > something that I take very seriously. > > Have a Great Day! > > > Education Coordinator > Champion EMS > Longview, Texas > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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