Guest guest Posted July 31, 2005 Report Share Posted July 31, 2005 Meris, I feel your pain. I recently wrote a rant about poor management in EMS, and I am convinced that EMS suffers from a very high incidence of poor management. EMS managers typically have become managers without ever studying management. Employee retention ought to be a high priority because it costs so much to replace an employee. But EMS managers are not taught to look at factor like that. They're only interested in producing income and cutting tangible costs. Intangibles are beyond them. Companies like Mcs invest mega bucks in training people for management. EMS invests zilch. I don't see a change in this until all the big company managers and their progeny have retired or died. That won't be soon. As usual, I make some generalizations, and it should be noted that there are always exceptions to every rule. Unfortunatately not enough exceptions. Gene G. > OK... > > Is it just me, or is there a sickening trend in EMS to > have a high turnover rate? I can't seem to find any > statistics or other data on this, but I feel that it > happens more than we'd like to think. Am I alone in > this feeling? > > If anyone has any hard numbers, I'd like to see them. > I think the last data I heard from 3 or 4 years ago > was about 25%. I don't think we turn over as much as > Mcs employees, but lately I'm not so sure about > that either. > > Matter of fact, I think I'd make more money if I went > to work at Mcs. My last job I made $10 an hour > as a Paramedic. That's absolutely absurd! It's > almost poverty level! I was working 4 jobs just to > make ends meet, and not doing it. I made $11 an hour > as an Intermediate at a very small, very rural > service, before, with about 1/4 the income of the $10 > an hour place. Where does all the money go? > Certainly not back into employees, safety equipment, > better supplies, etc... > > I believe it is something SO many services have no > concept of, even though the business world has known > for YEARS that you have to take care of your > employees. EMS services (for the most part) tend to > get by with giving as little to their employees as > possible, seeing how much flack they can take before > breaking, and still have the audacity to wonder why > people call in sick, get unlikely " injuries " and > refuse to work OT. They wonder why people leave as > fast as possible to go to bigger services, where they > may be treated the same, but the money is a good > enough band-aid that they keep their heads down. > > I have seen the apathy growing, not only in myself, > but in others. If we continue this disturbing trend, > we may soon run out of Medics. Nobody is getting into > EMS because it's " noble " anymore. It's just a job, > and not a great one at that, for the lack of benifits > and support we get. Where do we go from here? > > Feeling burned, and burned out...... > -Meris :-| > > > > ____________________________________________________ > Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page > http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 31, 2005 Report Share Posted July 31, 2005 Not only do I agree with Gene I will also say that as a career, EMS sucks big time. I cannot now nor will I ever tell anyone that EMS is a good job. Bad pay, bad hours, It hurts the social life due to the stresses involved, not much of a chance to advance unless you are in a large system such as Houston, Dallas and the such, management may or may not be good, owners do not give a flying rats ..... About the employees, shall I continue? Yea I said it. I think that the profession would do very well with a state wide union. I have no doubt that there will be a few people here who will have something negative to say about this post so bring it on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 1, 2005 Report Share Posted August 1, 2005 Gene, Why is it that the folks who are not in management the ones that are always complaining about poor management. Too many times the issue in a service is something that a manager has no control over. If Mcs is damn good, how come they can never get my order straight? I have heard you rant on this subj many times before and I would ask: From where do you get your perspective in regards to EMS management. Are you a manager? Have you ever been one? Have you worked for Mcs? Where? Henry Heh Heh wegandy1938@... wrote: > Meris, > > I feel your pain. I recently wrote a rant about poor management in EMS, and > I am convinced that EMS suffers from a very high incidence of poor > management. > > EMS managers typically have become managers without ever studying management. > > > Employee retention ought to be a high priority because it costs so much to > replace an employee. But EMS managers are not taught to look at factor like > that. They're only interested in producing income and cutting tangible costs. > Intangibles are beyond them. > > Companies like Mcs invest mega bucks in training people for management. > EMS invests zilch. > > I don't see a change in this until all the big company managers and their > progeny have retired or died. That won't be soon. > > As usual, I make some generalizations, and it should be noted that there are > always exceptions to every rule. Unfortunatately not enough exceptions. > > Gene G. > > > > OK... > > > > Is it just me, or is there a sickening trend in EMS to > > have a high turnover rate? I can't seem to find any > > statistics or other data on this, but I feel that it > > happens more than we'd like to think. Am I alone in > > this feeling? > > > > If anyone has any hard numbers, I'd like to see them. > > I think the last data I heard from 3 or 4 years ago > > was about 25%. I don't think we turn over as much as > > Mcs employees, but lately I'm not so sure about > > that either. > > > > Matter of fact, I think I'd make more money if I went > > to work at Mcs. My last job I made $10 an hour > > as a Paramedic. That's absolutely absurd! It's > > almost poverty level! I was working 4 jobs just to > > make ends meet, and not doing it. I made $11 an hour > > as an Intermediate at a very small, very rural > > service, before, with about 1/4 the income of the $10 > > an hour place. Where does all the money go? > > Certainly not back into employees, safety equipment, > > better supplies, etc... > > > > I believe it is something SO many services have no > > concept of, even though the business world has known > > for YEARS that you have to take care of your > > employees. EMS services (for the most part) tend to > > get by with giving as little to their employees as > > possible, seeing how much flack they can take before > > breaking, and still have the audacity to wonder why > > people call in sick, get unlikely " injuries " and > > refuse to work OT. They wonder why people leave as > > fast as possible to go to bigger services, where they > > may be treated the same, but the money is a good > > enough band-aid that they keep their heads down. > > > > I have seen the apathy growing, not only in myself, > > but in others. If we continue this disturbing trend, > > we may soon run out of Medics. Nobody is getting into > > EMS because it's " noble " anymore. It's just a job, > > and not a great one at that, for the lack of benifits > > and support we get. Where do we go from here? > > > > Feeling burned, and burned out...... > > -Meris :-| > > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________ > > Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page > > http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 1, 2005 Report Share Posted August 1, 2005 The problem you are talking about relates to most EMS managers coming up from the ranks. Employee retention can be achieved not by paying more but having respect for your employees. When I took over as the Operations Manger of a company in SW Florida I had a meeting with all the employees. I told them that " While I do the hiring and firing I work for You " I don't just preach this, I practice it. Our call volume has tripled since I took the position. Facility staff love our paramedics- Not because the are always on time but because the attitude they project is one of I like my company. This is a great place to work. Of course they want more money but they look past it and say I would rather have a huge Christmas party and a July picnic and all the other benefits that come with working here. The harder they work the more they make ( bonus program on top of their salary). We give our employee of the month 8 hours paid time off, $100.00 Dinner certificate of their choice. Take it all in cash we don't care it all cost the same to us. Our turnover rate is well below any averages I lose employees who really want to work at the fire department, So I help them get the things they need to do that. Its a give and take. We have great relationships with the Fire departments and the fire department staff. They appreciate my help with training their employees. If we were a company that just went out and said do this do that you work for me and if you don't like leave (they will) great pay or not. Many EMS managers come up through the ranks and do not have the management skills needed to run a successful company. Most would be better off hiring a recent college grad to run their company then take the best paramedic off the street to run it. Just my two cents. Re: Employee Retention? Gene, Why is it that the folks who are not in management the ones that are always complaining about poor management. Too many times the issue in a service is something that a manager has no control over. If Mcs is damn good, how come they can never get my order straight? I have heard you rant on this subj many times before and I would ask: From where do you get your perspective in regards to EMS management. Are you a manager? Have you ever been one? Have you worked for Mcs? Where? Henry Heh Heh wegandy1938@... wrote: > Meris, > > I feel your pain. I recently wrote a rant about poor management in EMS, and > I am convinced that EMS suffers from a very high incidence of poor > management. > > EMS managers typically have become managers without ever studying management. > > > Employee retention ought to be a high priority because it costs so much to > replace an employee. But EMS managers are not taught to look at factor like > that. They're only interested in producing income and cutting tangible costs. > Intangibles are beyond them. > > Companies like Mcs invest mega bucks in training people for management. > EMS invests zilch. > > I don't see a change in this until all the big company managers and their > progeny have retired or died. That won't be soon. > > As usual, I make some generalizations, and it should be noted that there are > always exceptions to every rule. Unfortunatately not enough exceptions. > > Gene G. > > > > OK... > > > > Is it just me, or is there a sickening trend in EMS to > > have a high turnover rate? I can't seem to find any > > statistics or other data on this, but I feel that it > > happens more than we'd like to think. Am I alone in > > this feeling? > > > > If anyone has any hard numbers, I'd like to see them. > > I think the last data I heard from 3 or 4 years ago > > was about 25%. I don't think we turn over as much as > > Mcs employees, but lately I'm not so sure about > > that either. > > > > Matter of fact, I think I'd make more money if I went > > to work at Mcs. My last job I made $10 an hour > > as a Paramedic. That's absolutely absurd! It's > > almost poverty level! I was working 4 jobs just to > > make ends meet, and not doing it. I made $11 an hour > > as an Intermediate at a very small, very rural > > service, before, with about 1/4 the income of the $10 > > an hour place. Where does all the money go? > > Certainly not back into employees, safety equipment, > > better supplies, etc... > > > > I believe it is something SO many services have no > > concept of, even though the business world has known > > for YEARS that you have to take care of your > > employees. EMS services (for the most part) tend to > > get by with giving as little to their employees as > > possible, seeing how much flack they can take before > > breaking, and still have the audacity to wonder why > > people call in sick, get unlikely " injuries " and > > refuse to work OT. They wonder why people leave as > > fast as possible to go to bigger services, where they > > may be treated the same, but the money is a good > > enough band-aid that they keep their heads down. > > > > I have seen the apathy growing, not only in myself, > > but in others. If we continue this disturbing trend, > > we may soon run out of Medics. Nobody is getting into > > EMS because it's " noble " anymore. It's just a job, > > and not a great one at that, for the lack of benifits > > and support we get. Where do we go from here? > > > > Feeling burned, and burned out...... > > -Meris :-| > > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________ > > Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page > > http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 1, 2005 Report Share Posted August 1, 2005 Yes Mike that is what we strive for here in our company. However we do also have a retirement plan. Our employees make more than a livable wage with or without our bonus plan. If one of the employees here gets upset with me or something I do the door is always open for a frank and honest discussion on the matter. I can even change my mind based on the Opinions that the employees give. However sometimes I have to make the decision that is not always popular. As far as the comment of wanting more money than having a party- I don't not disagree that if we would only pay them more some of them would be happier. Its a matter of fact that the more some one makes the more they spend. I am not talking about basic bills and not being able to afforded to pay electric or buy a house ( over 90% of our employees are home owners ) the other ten may not be ready. If you salary doubled today do you think that you would be better off in a year? Surveys show that most are not.. What would you do with he extra money? Invest it save it or try to pay off some bills? Most people just raise the monthly bills why not buy the bigger car you've always wanted it? That's how businesses stay in business. Wealthy people live within their means. They just happened to save a lot more that the average person. (they are cheap). So our little party in December where we give away ticket to Tampa BUCS games Ticket to Disney world A free Caribbean Cruise flat screen TV's DVD players, Surround sound systems may not sound like much but over 50 percent of our employees win something and that's why they stay. Nate P.S. I always help my employees solve any problem I can or direct them where to go to fix it. That's Me working for them. RE: Employee Retention? Here's my take on what you need for employee retention, at least from my own perspective. In a nutshell, I want a livable wage, if I choose to work 2 jobs, it's because I want to, not because I have to in order to pay the rent and put food on my table. I hate to disagree, but I would rather have a check in my pocket, than a Christmas party and a picnic. I want decent insurance, one that pays the bills (excluding my copay), and one that doesn't insist on me seeing a quack because that's the one on their list. I want a retirement plan where after 20 years, I don't have to retire to get my pension, then immediately find a job to make ends meet. I want to respect EVERYONE in my chain of command, from the lowest level supervisor to the top dog, I don't want to work for someone (no matter what link they are in the chain) who is lazy, or has the feeling 'I've done that already, now I am a supervisor so I don't have to do it again' (regarding anything from stocking a truck, to mopping floors, to taking a call). I want a fair and impartial director, one who listens to everything, then makes a decision, regarding not only employees, but the need for new equipment, protocols etc. I want a medical director that knows my name, how many kids I have, and where I love, not someone who wouldn't recognize me if I hit him at an intersection. I want to pick where I live, I like the school district that my boys are in, they have the same group of friends that they have had for years, and I want them to finish high school like that. Why should I have to move? What if there isn't anything in your town that appeals to me (housing, schools, etc.)? I want decent trucks and equipment, if your idea of a decent truck and equipment is an 80's model van and a LP5, you're obsolete. I want to know that if I go to my boss with a problem, he'll either help me fix it, give me some advice, or tell me he has no earthly idea how to help me. I want an opportunity to move up within the ranks with competing with those that have no other ambition in life except to kiss the bosses...well...you know, and a boss that will recognize that such activities do not necessarily mean that such a person has the intelligence, or fortitude to lead when he is gone. I want to work with a group of people who are not afraid to jump a call when they know the other crew is wiped out and not totally restocked, " just because they can " , a group of people who are not insistent on writing up a missing alcohol wipe from your truck, but rather, stock it and make mention of it in a civilized manner. I want to work with a group of people that were hired because they were good, people that I would feel comfortable with if they were caring for me, not people who were hired for a patch and a pulse. You got that, you got me. I am lucky enough to have that where I am, good people, good boss, great equipment, incredible protocols. The only shortfall is the retirement, therefore, with my paycheck, (which pays the bills) I also invest towards my own retirement. Mike Hatfield FF/EMT-P Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 1, 2005 Report Share Posted August 1, 2005 First of all, Henry, you're granted an exemption from any derogatory comment I may make about management. You're not the kind of manager I'm talking about, and I believe you know that. Any more of this nonsense I shall not up with put! (Aside for potential employees: If you have a chance to go to work for Henry, jump on it!). I study management theory. I have managed a volunteer service for 10 years, a law practice specializing in labor law, a large college department for 15 years, and I have served on the Texas Leadership Management Task Force, which developed the curriculum for the Leadership Academy, so somebody thought I knew something about management. I use Mcs as an example because I have studied their management manuals. Further, I have read all the materials my wife read in getting her MBA. I have seen good managers in action, and I have seen bad managers in action, and I know the difference. Good management principles are not secret. How do I know how management works in EMS? I get dozens of communications yearly from employees describing the horrible working conditions under which they labor. It doesn't take an Einstein to see the differences in good and bad management. Now get back to your fishing and leave me alone! Gene > Gene, > > Why is it that the folks who are not in management the ones that are always > complaining about poor management. Too many times the issue in a service is > something that a manager has no control over. If Mcs is damn good, how > come they can never get my order straight? I have heard you rant on this subj > many times before and I would ask: From where do you get your perspective in > regards to EMS management. Are you a > manager? Have you ever been one? Have you worked for Mcs? Where? > > Henry > Heh Heh > > wegandy1938@... wrote: > > > Meris, > > > > I feel your pain. I recently wrote a rant about poor management in EMS, > and > > I am convinced that EMS suffers from a very high incidence of poor > > management. > > > > EMS managers typically have become managers without ever studying > management. > > > > > > Employee retention ought to be a high priority because it costs so much to > > replace an employee. But EMS managers are not taught to look at factor > like > > that. They're only interested in producing income and cutting tangible > costs. > > Intangibles are beyond them. > > > > Companies like Mcs invest mega bucks in training people for > management. > > EMS invests zilch. > > > > I don't see a change in this until all the big company managers and their > > progeny have retired or died. That won't be soon. > > > > As usual, I make some generalizations, and it should be noted that there > are > > always exceptions to every rule. Unfortunatately not enough exceptions. > > > > Gene G. > > > > > > > OK... > > > > > > Is it just me, or is there a sickening trend in EMS to > > > have a high turnover rate? I can't seem to find any > > > statistics or other data on this, but I feel that it > > > happens more than we'd like to think. Am I alone in > > > this feeling? > > > > > > If anyone has any hard numbers, I'd like to see them. > > > I think the last data I heard from 3 or 4 years ago > > > was about 25%. I don't think we turn over as much as > > > Mcs employees, but lately I'm not so sure about > > > that either. > > > > > > Matter of fact, I think I'd make more money if I went > > > to work at Mcs. My last job I made $10 an hour > > > as a Paramedic. That's absolutely absurd! It's > > > almost poverty level! I was working 4 jobs just to > > > make ends meet, and not doing it. I made $11 an hour > > > as an Intermediate at a very small, very rural > > > service, before, with about 1/4 the income of the $10 > > > an hour place. Where does all the money go? > > > Certainly not back into employees, safety equipment, > > > better supplies, etc... > > > > > > I believe it is something SO many services have no > > > concept of, even though the business world has known > > > for YEARS that you have to take care of your > > > employees. EMS services (for the most part) tend to > > > get by with giving as little to their employees as > > > possible, seeing how much flack they can take before > > > breaking, and still have the audacity to wonder why > > > people call in sick, get unlikely " injuries " and > > > refuse to work OT. They wonder why people leave as > > > fast as possible to go to bigger services, where they > > > may be treated the same, but the money is a good > > > enough band-aid that they keep their heads down. > > > > > > I have seen the apathy growing, not only in myself, > > > but in others. If we continue this disturbing trend, > > > we may soon run out of Medics. Nobody is getting into > > > EMS because it's " noble " anymore. It's just a job, > > > and not a great one at that, for the lack of benifits > > > and support we get. Where do we go from here? > > > > > > Feeling burned, and burned out...... > > > -Meris :-| > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________ > > > Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page > > > http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 1, 2005 Report Share Posted August 1, 2005 Fortunately, I have all of that also, plus 20 year retirement no matter what my age. Andy Foote In a message dated 8/1/2005 12:59:45 P.M. Central Standard Time, hatfield@... writes: Here's my take on what you need for employee retention, at least from my own perspective. In a nutshell, I want a livable wage, if I choose to work 2 jobs, it's because I want to, not because I have to in order to pay the rent and put food on my table. I hate to disagree, but I would rather have a check in my pocket, than a Christmas party and a picnic. I want decent insurance, one that pays the bills (excluding my copay), and one that doesn't insist on me seeing a quack because that's the one on their list. I want a retirement plan where after 20 years, I don't have to retire to get my pension, then immediately find a job to make ends meet. I want to respect EVERYONE in my chain of command, from the lowest level supervisor to the top dog, I don't want to work for someone (no matter what link they are in the chain) who is lazy, or has the feeling 'I've done that already, now I am a supervisor so I don't have to do it again' (regarding anything from stocking a truck, to mopping floors, to taking a call). I want a fair and impartial director, one who listens to everything, then makes a decision, regarding not only employees, but the need for new equipment, protocols etc. I want a medical director that knows my name, how many kids I have, and where I love, not someone who wouldn't recognize me if I hit him at an intersection. I want to pick where I live, I like the school district that my boys are in, they have the same group of friends that they have had for years, and I want them to finish high school like that. Why should I have to move? What if there isn't anything in your town that appeals to me (housing, schools, etc.)? I want decent trucks and equipment, if your idea of a decent truck and equipment is an 80's model van and a LP5, you're obsolete. I want to know that if I go to my boss with a problem, he'll either help me fix it, give me some advice, or tell me he has no earthly idea how to help me. I want an opportunity to move up within the ranks with competing with those that have no other ambition in life except to kiss the bosses...well...you know, and a boss that will recognize that such activities do not necessarily mean that such a person has the intelligence, or fortitude to lead when he is gone. I want to work with a group of people who are not afraid to jump a call when they know the other crew is wiped out and not totally restocked, " just because they can " , a group of people who are not insistent on writing up a missing alcohol wipe from your truck, but rather, stock it and make mention of it in a civilized manner. I want to work with a group of people that were hired because they were good, people that I would feel comfortable with if they were caring for me, not people who were hired for a patch and a pulse. You got that, you got me. I am lucky enough to have that where I am, good people, good boss, great equipment, incredible protocols. The only shortfall is the retirement, therefore, with my paycheck, (which pays the bills) I also invest towards my own retirement. Mike Hatfield FF/EMT-P Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 1, 2005 Report Share Posted August 1, 2005 Here's my take on what you need for employee retention, at least from my own perspective. In a nutshell, I want a livable wage, if I choose to work 2 jobs, it's because I want to, not because I have to in order to pay the rent and put food on my table. I hate to disagree, but I would rather have a check in my pocket, than a Christmas party and a picnic. I want decent insurance, one that pays the bills (excluding my copay), and one that doesn't insist on me seeing a quack because that's the one on their list. I want a retirement plan where after 20 years, I don't have to retire to get my pension, then immediately find a job to make ends meet. I want to respect EVERYONE in my chain of command, from the lowest level supervisor to the top dog, I don't want to work for someone (no matter what link they are in the chain) who is lazy, or has the feeling 'I've done that already, now I am a supervisor so I don't have to do it again' (regarding anything from stocking a truck, to mopping floors, to taking a call). I want a fair and impartial director, one who listens to everything, then makes a decision, regarding not only employees, but the need for new equipment, protocols etc. I want a medical director that knows my name, how many kids I have, and where I love, not someone who wouldn't recognize me if I hit him at an intersection. I want to pick where I live, I like the school district that my boys are in, they have the same group of friends that they have had for years, and I want them to finish high school like that. Why should I have to move? What if there isn't anything in your town that appeals to me (housing, schools, etc.)? I want decent trucks and equipment, if your idea of a decent truck and equipment is an 80's model van and a LP5, you're obsolete. I want to know that if I go to my boss with a problem, he'll either help me fix it, give me some advice, or tell me he has no earthly idea how to help me. I want an opportunity to move up within the ranks with competing with those that have no other ambition in life except to kiss the bosses...well...you know, and a boss that will recognize that such activities do not necessarily mean that such a person has the intelligence, or fortitude to lead when he is gone. I want to work with a group of people who are not afraid to jump a call when they know the other crew is wiped out and not totally restocked, " just because they can " , a group of people who are not insistent on writing up a missing alcohol wipe from your truck, but rather, stock it and make mention of it in a civilized manner. I want to work with a group of people that were hired because they were good, people that I would feel comfortable with if they were caring for me, not people who were hired for a patch and a pulse. You got that, you got me. I am lucky enough to have that where I am, good people, good boss, great equipment, incredible protocols. The only shortfall is the retirement, therefore, with my paycheck, (which pays the bills) I also invest towards my own retirement. Mike Hatfield FF/EMT-P Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 1, 2005 Report Share Posted August 1, 2005 I have to agree with Gene on this one, purely from personal experience. He never sais all EMS management was bad.... but I would say a lot it. There are some really great EMS managers out there (I could brown nose and name a few here…. but I’ll defer at this time), but so many are " corporate executives " that could give a rats %*$ about their employees. Their only thoughts are of the well being of their bottom line and they fail to remember Management 101 principles. While thinking about this, let’s all keep that Maslow guy in mind. Take care of the basic human needs first….Management 101. A well paid professional workforce with job security and good benefits is a company’s best asset. Tao Zhu Gong said, “Treating people with respect will gain one wide acceptance and improve the business.” Chrétien said, “Leadership means making people feel good.” This seems simple, so why is it so hard? Think about the people you’ve worked for. Did you respect them? Why, or why not? Did they respect you? How? Which of your previous bosses would you be most willing to “obey”? Why? Think about the real gist of this matter. There is a HUGE difference in management and leadership. F. Drucker said, “Management is doing things right; leadership is doing the right things.” Being in a management position does not make one a manager, nor does it make them a leader. “Leaders must encourage their organizations to dance to forms of music yet to be heard.” - Warren G. Bennis Leadership development in its most primitive form begins with education. This is the primary reason EMS education MUST be moved from “Bill & Ted’s Excellent EMS Academy” and into a collegiate setting. As long as we continue “training” our “leaders” of tomorrow, there will be no “education”. Food for thought, E. Tate, LP P.S. It’s because of an AAS in EMS in case you wondered, and a management course was included. Henry wrote: Gene, Why is it that the folks who are not in management the ones that are always complaining about poor management. Too many times the issue in a service is something that a manager has no control over. If Mcs is damn good, how come they can never get my order straight? I have heard you rant on this subj many times before and I would ask: From where do you get your perspective in regards to EMS management. Are you a manager? Have you ever been one? Have you worked for Mcs? Where? Henry Heh Heh wegandy1938@... wrote: > Meris, > > I feel your pain. I recently wrote a rant about poor management in EMS, and > I am convinced that EMS suffers from a very high incidence of poor > management. > > EMS managers typically have become managers without ever studying management. > > > Employee retention ought to be a high priority because it costs so much to > replace an employee. But EMS managers are not taught to look at factor like > that. They're only interested in producing income and cutting tangible costs. > Intangibles are beyond them. > > Companies like Mcs invest mega bucks in training people for management. > EMS invests zilch. > > I don't see a change in this until all the big company managers and their > progeny have retired or died. That won't be soon. > > As usual, I make some generalizations, and it should be noted that there are > always exceptions to every rule. Unfortunatately not enough exceptions. > > Gene G. > > > > OK... > > > > Is it just me, or is there a sickening trend in EMS to > > have a high turnover rate? I can't seem to find any > > statistics or other data on this, but I feel that it > > happens more than we'd like to think. Am I alone in > > this feeling? > > > > If anyone has any hard numbers, I'd like to see them. > > I think the last data I heard from 3 or 4 years ago > > was about 25%. I don't think we turn over as much as > > Mcs employees, but lately I'm not so sure about > > that either. > > > > Matter of fact, I think I'd make more money if I went > > to work at Mcs. My last job I made $10 an hour > > as a Paramedic. That's absolutely absurd! It's > > almost poverty level! I was working 4 jobs just to > > make ends meet, and not doing it. I made $11 an hour > > as an Intermediate at a very small, very rural > > service, before, with about 1/4 the income of the $10 > > an hour place. Where does all the money go? > > Certainly not back into employees, safety equipment, > > better supplies, etc... > > > > I believe it is something SO many services have no > > concept of, even though the business world has known > > for YEARS that you have to take care of your > > employees. EMS services (for the most part) tend to > > get by with giving as little to their employees as > > possible, seeing how much flack they can take before > > breaking, and still have the audacity to wonder why > > people call in sick, get unlikely " injuries " and > > refuse to work OT. They wonder why people leave as > > fast as possible to go to bigger services, where they > > may be treated the same, but the money is a good > > enough band-aid that they keep their heads down. > > > > I have seen the apathy growing, not only in myself, > > but in others. If we continue this disturbing trend, > > we may soon run out of Medics. Nobody is getting into > > EMS because it's " noble " anymore. It's just a job, > > and not a great one at that, for the lack of benifits > > and support we get. Where do we go from here? > > > > Feeling burned, and burned out...... > > -Meris :-| > > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________ > > Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page > > http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 1, 2005 Report Share Posted August 1, 2005 AMEN! AMEN! AMEN! AMEN! AMEN! AMEN! AMEN! AMEN! AMEN! iel Cooley wrote:The problem you are talking about relates to most EMS managers coming up from the ranks. Employee retention can be achieved not by paying more but having respect for your employees. When I took over as the Operations Manger of a company in SW Florida I had a meeting with all the employees. I told them that " While I do the hiring and firing I work for You " I don't just preach this, I practice it. Our call volume has tripled since I took the position. Facility staff love our paramedics- Not because the are always on time but because the attitude they project is one of I like my company. This is a great place to work. Of course they want more money but they look past it and say I would rather have a huge Christmas party and a July picnic and all the other benefits that come with working here. The harder they work the more they make ( bonus program on top of their salary). We give our employee of the month 8 hours paid time off, $100.00 Dinner certificate of their choice. Take it all in cash we don't care it all cost the same to us. Our turnover rate is well below any averages I lose employees who really want to work at the fire department, So I help them get the things they need to do that. Its a give and take. We have great relationships with the Fire departments and the fire department staff. They appreciate my help with training their employees. If we were a company that just went out and said do this do that you work for me and if you don't like leave (they will) great pay or not. Many EMS managers come up through the ranks and do not have the management skills needed to run a successful company. Most would be better off hiring a recent college grad to run their company then take the best paramedic off the street to run it. Just my two cents. Re: Employee Retention? Gene, Why is it that the folks who are not in management the ones that are always complaining about poor management. Too many times the issue in a service is something that a manager has no control over. If Mcs is damn good, how come they can never get my order straight? I have heard you rant on this subj many times before and I would ask: From where do you get your perspective in regards to EMS management. Are you a manager? Have you ever been one? Have you worked for Mcs? Where? Henry Heh Heh wegandy1938@... wrote: > Meris, > > I feel your pain. I recently wrote a rant about poor management in EMS, and > I am convinced that EMS suffers from a very high incidence of poor > management. > > EMS managers typically have become managers without ever studying management. > > > Employee retention ought to be a high priority because it costs so much to > replace an employee. But EMS managers are not taught to look at factor like > that. They're only interested in producing income and cutting tangible costs. > Intangibles are beyond them. > > Companies like Mcs invest mega bucks in training people for management. > EMS invests zilch. > > I don't see a change in this until all the big company managers and their > progeny have retired or died. That won't be soon. > > As usual, I make some generalizations, and it should be noted that there are > always exceptions to every rule. Unfortunatately not enough exceptions. > > Gene G. > > > > OK... > > > > Is it just me, or is there a sickening trend in EMS to > > have a high turnover rate? I can't seem to find any > > statistics or other data on this, but I feel that it > > happens more than we'd like to think. Am I alone in > > this feeling? > > > > If anyone has any hard numbers, I'd like to see them. > > I think the last data I heard from 3 or 4 years ago > > was about 25%. I don't think we turn over as much as > > Mcs employees, but lately I'm not so sure about > > that either. > > > > Matter of fact, I think I'd make more money if I went > > to work at Mcs. My last job I made $10 an hour > > as a Paramedic. That's absolutely absurd! It's > > almost poverty level! I was working 4 jobs just to > > make ends meet, and not doing it. I made $11 an hour > > as an Intermediate at a very small, very rural > > service, before, with about 1/4 the income of the $10 > > an hour place. Where does all the money go? > > Certainly not back into employees, safety equipment, > > better supplies, etc... > > > > I believe it is something SO many services have no > > concept of, even though the business world has known > > for YEARS that you have to take care of your > > employees. EMS services (for the most part) tend to > > get by with giving as little to their employees as > > possible, seeing how much flack they can take before > > breaking, and still have the audacity to wonder why > > people call in sick, get unlikely " injuries " and > > refuse to work OT. They wonder why people leave as > > fast as possible to go to bigger services, where they > > may be treated the same, but the money is a good > > enough band-aid that they keep their heads down. > > > > I have seen the apathy growing, not only in myself, > > but in others. If we continue this disturbing trend, > > we may soon run out of Medics. Nobody is getting into > > EMS because it's " noble " anymore. It's just a job, > > and not a great one at that, for the lack of benifits > > and support we get. Where do we go from here? > > > > Feeling burned, and burned out...... > > -Meris :-| > > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________ > > Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page > > http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 1, 2005 Report Share Posted August 1, 2005 > >Hay Kieth what book did those quotes come from and where can I get a copy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 1, 2005 Report Share Posted August 1, 2005 Mike, I personally don't care where you " love " . It's your right to " love " anywhere you please as far as I'm concerned, but I think it is a little kinky that you want your medical director to know..... LOL Tater Hatfield wrote: <BEGIN SNIP> I want a medical director that knows my name, how many kids I have, and where I love, not someone who wouldn't recognize me if I hit him at an intersection. <END SNIP> Mike Hatfield FF/EMT-P What’s stopping you from joining EMSAT? http://www.TexasEMSAT.org E. Tate, LP Whitehouse, Texas http://www.EMStock.com http://www.TEMSF.org --------------------------------- Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 1, 2005 Report Share Posted August 1, 2005 Well said , Leadership and Education is the Key. We have grown out of the 1930's sweat shops. It just always seemed to me, that is how Many in EMS Management tries to run things. Ask your self this question- who is in a position of authority in your organization, and who is in a position of responsibility. I bet the one with the responsibility has more respect. We have no one in this organization with authority, everyone has responsibility. Simple respect and a listening ear will go a lot further then just do it because I said so. Nate Re: Employee Retention? I have to agree with Gene on this one, purely from personal experience. He never sais all EMS management was bad.... but I would say a lot it. There are some really great EMS managers out there (I could brown nose and name a few here…. but I’ll defer at this time), but so many are " corporate executives " that could give a rats %*$ about their employees. Their only thoughts are of the well being of their bottom line and they fail to remember Management 101 principles. While thinking about this, let’s all keep that Maslow guy in mind. Take care of the basic human needs first….Management 101. A well paid professional workforce with job security and good benefits is a company’s best asset. Tao Zhu Gong said, “Treating people with respect will gain one wide acceptance and improve the business.” Chrétien said, “Leadership means making people feel good.” This seems simple, so why is it so hard? Think about the people you’ve worked for. Did you respect them? Why, or why not? Did they respect you? How? Which of your previous bosses would you be most willing to “obey”? Why? Think about the real gist of this matter. There is a HUGE difference in management and leadership. F. Drucker said, “Management is doing things right; leadership is doing the right things.” Being in a management position does not make one a manager, nor does it make them a leader. “Leaders must encourage their organizations to dance to forms of music yet to be heard.” - Warren G. Bennis Leadership development in its most primitive form begins with education. This is the primary reason EMS education MUST be moved from “Bill & Ted’s Excellent EMS Academy” and into a collegiate setting. As long as we continue “training” our “leaders” of tomorrow, there will be no “education”. Food for thought, E. Tate, LP P.S. It’s because of an AAS in EMS in case you wondered, and a management course was included. Henry wrote: Gene, Why is it that the folks who are not in management the ones that are always complaining about poor management. Too many times the issue in a service is something that a manager has no control over. If Mcs is damn good, how come they can never get my order straight? I have heard you rant on this subj many times before and I would ask: From where do you get your perspective in regards to EMS management. Are you a manager? Have you ever been one? Have you worked for Mcs? Where? Henry Heh Heh wegandy1938@... wrote: > Meris, > > I feel your pain. I recently wrote a rant about poor management in EMS, and > I am convinced that EMS suffers from a very high incidence of poor > management. > > EMS managers typically have become managers without ever studying management. > > > Employee retention ought to be a high priority because it costs so much to > replace an employee. But EMS managers are not taught to look at factor like > that. They're only interested in producing income and cutting tangible costs. > Intangibles are beyond them. > > Companies like Mcs invest mega bucks in training people for management. > EMS invests zilch. > > I don't see a change in this until all the big company managers and their > progeny have retired or died. That won't be soon. > > As usual, I make some generalizations, and it should be noted that there are > always exceptions to every rule. Unfortunatately not enough exceptions. > > Gene G. > > > > OK... > > > > Is it just me, or is there a sickening trend in EMS to > > have a high turnover rate? I can't seem to find any > > statistics or other data on this, but I feel that it > > happens more than we'd like to think. Am I alone in > > this feeling? > > > > If anyone has any hard numbers, I'd like to see them. > > I think the last data I heard from 3 or 4 years ago > > was about 25%. I don't think we turn over as much as > > Mcs employees, but lately I'm not so sure about > > that either. > > > > Matter of fact, I think I'd make more money if I went > > to work at Mcs. My last job I made $10 an hour > > as a Paramedic. That's absolutely absurd! It's > > almost poverty level! I was working 4 jobs just to > > make ends meet, and not doing it. I made $11 an hour > > as an Intermediate at a very small, very rural > > service, before, with about 1/4 the income of the $10 > > an hour place. Where does all the money go? > > Certainly not back into employees, safety equipment, > > better supplies, etc... > > > > I believe it is something SO many services have no > > concept of, even though the business world has known > > for YEARS that you have to take care of your > > employees. EMS services (for the most part) tend to > > get by with giving as little to their employees as > > possible, seeing how much flack they can take before > > breaking, and still have the audacity to wonder why > > people call in sick, get unlikely " injuries " and > > refuse to work OT. They wonder why people leave as > > fast as possible to go to bigger services, where they > > may be treated the same, but the money is a good > > enough band-aid that they keep their heads down. > > > > I have seen the apathy growing, not only in myself, > > but in others. If we continue this disturbing trend, > > we may soon run out of Medics. Nobody is getting into > > EMS because it's " noble " anymore. It's just a job, > > and not a great one at that, for the lack of benifits > > and support we get. Where do we go from here? > > > > Feeling burned, and burned out...... > > -Meris :-| > > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________ > > Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page > > http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 1, 2005 Report Share Posted August 1, 2005 First of all, Henry, you're granted an exemption from any derogatory comment I may make about management. You're not the kind of manager I'm talking about, and I believe you know that. Any more of this nonsense I shall not up with put! (Aside for potential employees: If you have a chance to go to work for Henry, jump on it!). Gene Well, Gene, I have only met Henry at GETAC meetings and do not really know him. However, over the years on this listserver and at GETAC meetings I have developed a respect for Henry. Seeing things that he has written on the server and hearing him at meetings has taught me this respect. I can't say that about many people but Henry deserves respect from others in EMS, regardless of their time in the profession. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 1, 2005 Report Share Posted August 1, 2005 I know my rights. I don't hafta say nuthin! GG > OK Gene, how much did Henry pay you to say that? Are you recruiting for > him > now? I agree wholeheartedly it is now, and has always been one of the best > services and managers in the state to work for. (Just make my check out to > cash Henry) > > Chambers, LP > Calhoun County EMS > > > First of all, Henry, you're granted an exemption from any derogatory comment > I may make about management. You're not the kind of manager I'm talking > about, and I believe you know that. Any more of this nonsense I shall not > up > with put! (Aside for potential employees: If you have a chance to go to > work > for Henry, jump on it!). > > Gene > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 1, 2005 Report Share Posted August 1, 2005 Since I personally know Nate's ambulance company, his management style, and what that company gives, I can assure you, he is telling the truth. His employees get a yearly raise, bonuses, extra pay for unusual hours, or late nights, and I believe he still pays extra when they work over their assigned shift hours. That's not counting the management open door policy. Even the owner had the managers evaluate HIS style and weak areas and dared them to try to sugar coat it. Not only do they have a retirement plan, but the owner adds to it from the year end profits and gives profit sharing. And, that's not counting getting all the holidays paid or off, lucrative vacations, the owner pays 100% of the health insurance premiums when you've been there over a certain length of time, the employees earn CEU's at company expense all the time, PLUS, if an EMT wants to become a paramedic, the company will pay for it. PLUS, the owner makes personal loans to employees when they need help, and does not charge interest. AND, that company makes profits and it's integrity is above reproach. There is not one part of that company that commits any kind of fraud. Daphne --------- RE: Employee Retention? Here's my take on what you need for employee retention, at least from my own perspective. In a nutshell, I want a livable wage, if I choose to work 2 jobs, it's because I want to, not because I have to in order to pay the rent and put food on my table. I hate to disagree, but I would rather have a check in my pocket, than a Christmas party and a picnic. I want decent insurance, one that pays the bills (excluding my copay), and one that doesn't insist on me seeing a quack because that's the one on their list. I want a retirement plan where after 20 years, I don't have to retire to get my pension, then immediately find a job to make ends meet. I want to respect EVERYONE in my chain of command, from the lowest level supervisor to the top dog, I don't want to work for someone (no matter what link they are in the chain) who is lazy, or has the feeling 'I've done that already, now I am a supervisor so I don't have to do it again' (regarding anything from stocking a truck, to mopping floors, to taking a call). I want a fair and impartial director, one who listens to everything, then makes a decision, regarding not only employees, but the need for new equipment, protocols etc. I want a medical director that knows my name, how many kids I have, and where I love, not someone who wouldn't recognize me if I hit him at an intersection. I want to pick where I live, I like the school district that my boys are in, they have the same group of friends that they have had for years, and I want them to finish high school like that. Why should I have to move? What if there isn't anything in your town that appeals to me (housing, schools, etc.)? I want decent trucks and equipment, if your idea of a decent truck and equipment is an 80's model van and a LP5, you're obsolete. I want to know that if I go to my boss with a problem, he'll either help me fix it, give me some advice, or tell me he has no earthly idea how to help me. I want an opportunity to move up within the ranks with competing with those that have no other ambition in life except to kiss the bosses...well...you know, and a boss that will recognize that such activities do not necessarily mean that such a person has the intelligence, or fortitude to lead when he is gone. I want to work with a group of people who are not afraid to jump a call when they know the other crew is wiped out and not totally restocked, " just because they can " , a group of people who are not insistent on writing up a missing alcohol wipe from your truck, but rather, stock it and make mention of it in a civilized manner. I want to work with a group of people that were hired because they were good, people that I would feel comfortable with if they were caring for me, not people who were hired for a patch and a pulse. You got that, you got me. I am lucky enough to have that where I am, good people, good boss, great equipment, incredible protocols. The only shortfall is the retirement, therefore, with my paycheck, (which pays the bills) I also invest towards my own retirement. Mike Hatfield FF/EMT-P Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 1, 2005 Report Share Posted August 1, 2005 lverrett, Gotta get in on this one...I cannot say my career has sucked. I have been at this over 20 years...worked for a number of providers....achieved my definition of success on many fronts...and look forward to many more years into the future. I often encourage folks to look at this field as a career or a great way to get involved in the health care system. I encourage them to pursue THEIR dreams while realizing a position, patch, or organization does not make you happy....you have to be happy with who you are...and use the other things to help you along the way. I wish you well in your future endeavors, where ever they may take you. Good luck to you, but I would bet you are going to have a miserable time of it trying to find something that pleases you...I know that EMS will be a better profession without you. Dudley RE: Employee Retention? Not only do I agree with Gene I will also say that as a career, EMS sucks big time. I cannot now nor will I ever tell anyone that EMS is a good job. Bad pay, bad hours, It hurts the social life due to the stresses involved, not much of a chance to advance unless you are in a large system such as Houston, Dallas and the such, management may or may not be good, owners do not give a flying rats ..... About the employees, shall I continue? Yea I said it. I think that the profession would do very well with a state wide union. I have no doubt that there will be a few people here who will have something negative to say about this post so bring it on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 1, 2005 Report Share Posted August 1, 2005 Nate, A couple of things, and by no means am I trying to instigate anything here, but your theory seems to be that by NOT giving your employees a raise, you are helping them be financially responsible? Sorry, but I can't buy that. In so much as a party instead of a raise, from the employers perspective, depending on how many employees you have, it's a lot cheaper than giving raises, so I can't accept that either. If it works for you, that's great. I am curious though, if you actually polled your employees to ask them if they would prefer a raise, or a Christmas party? Tickets to the Bucs would be awesome, but if you give me a 50 cent per hour raise, that's an extra 1000.00 (not inclusive of overtime) per year. I wish you the best, and if you are successful that's great too. Having been in a supervisory position with a private service in the past, we were encouraged to supply picnics and barbecues from petty cash because it was cheaper than giving raises, of course this was also the same company that left 21 " television sets and 6 months of pre paid cable at the homes of potential dialysis transport patients too, hence the reason I don't work for them anymore..... Mike Hatfield FF/EMT-P RE: Employee Retention? Here's my take on what you need for employee retention, at least from my own perspective. In a nutshell, I want a livable wage, if I choose to work 2 jobs, it's because I want to, not because I have to in order to pay the rent and put food on my table. I hate to disagree, but I would rather have a check in my pocket, than a Christmas party and a picnic. I want decent insurance, one that pays the bills (excluding my copay), and one that doesn't insist on me seeing a quack because that's the one on their list. I want a retirement plan where after 20 years, I don't have to retire to get my pension, then immediately find a job to make ends meet. I want to respect EVERYONE in my chain of command, from the lowest level supervisor to the top dog, I don't want to work for someone (no matter what link they are in the chain) who is lazy, or has the feeling 'I've done that already, now I am a supervisor so I don't have to do it again' (regarding anything from stocking a truck, to mopping floors, to taking a call). I want a fair and impartial director, one who listens to everything, then makes a decision, regarding not only employees, but the need for new equipment, protocols etc. I want a medical director that knows my name, how many kids I have, and where I love, not someone who wouldn't recognize me if I hit him at an intersection. I want to pick where I live, I like the school district that my boys are in, they have the same group of friends that they have had for years, and I want them to finish high school like that. Why should I have to move? What if there isn't anything in your town that appeals to me (housing, schools, etc.)? I want decent trucks and equipment, if your idea of a decent truck and equipment is an 80's model van and a LP5, you're obsolete. I want to know that if I go to my boss with a problem, he'll either help me fix it, give me some advice, or tell me he has no earthly idea how to help me. I want an opportunity to move up within the ranks with competing with those that have no other ambition in life except to kiss the bosses...well...you know, and a boss that will recognize that such activities do not necessarily mean that such a person has the intelligence, or fortitude to lead when he is gone. I want to work with a group of people who are not afraid to jump a call when they know the other crew is wiped out and not totally restocked, " just because they can " , a group of people who are not insistent on writing up a missing alcohol wipe from your truck, but rather, stock it and make mention of it in a civilized manner. I want to work with a group of people that were hired because they were good, people that I would feel comfortable with if they were caring for me, not people who were hired for a patch and a pulse. You got that, you got me. I am lucky enough to have that where I am, good people, good boss, great equipment, incredible protocols. The only shortfall is the retirement, therefore, with my paycheck, (which pays the bills) I also invest towards my own retirement. Mike Hatfield FF/EMT-P Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 1, 2005 Report Share Posted August 1, 2005 LMAO, ahhhh Tater, I knew someone would catch it, besides, you really gotta know my Medical Director!!! Mike RE: Employee Retention? Mike, I personally don't care where you " love " . It's your right to " love " anywhere you please as far as I'm concerned, but I think it is a little kinky that you want your medical director to know..... LOL Tater Hatfield wrote: <BEGIN SNIP> I want a medical director that knows my name, how many kids I have, and where I love, not someone who wouldn't recognize me if I hit him at an intersection. <END SNIP> Mike Hatfield FF/EMT-P What's stopping you from joining EMSAT? http://www.TexasEMSAT.org E. Tate, LP Whitehouse, Texas http://www.EMStock.com http://www.TEMSF.org --------------------------------- Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 1, 2005 Report Share Posted August 1, 2005 My only question about all this, and it sounds good, is how does any organization, private, public, 911, transfer...afford to do all of this with reimbursement the way it is. Is it a matter of taking care of the employees but not the equipment?? Working them like dogs??? Doesn't add up. I am not doubting anything you say, just wondering how? Chambers, LP -- RE: Employee Retention? Since I personally know Nate's ambulance company, his management style, and what that company gives, I can assure you, he is telling the truth. His employees get a yearly raise, bonuses, extra pay for unusual hours, or late nights, and I believe he still pays extra when they work over their assigned shift hours. That's not counting the management open door policy. Even the owner had the managers evaluate HIS style and weak areas and dared them to try to sugar coat it. Not only do they have a retirement plan, but the owner adds to it from the year end profits and gives profit sharing. And, that's not counting getting all the holidays paid or off, lucrative vacations, the owner pays 100% of the health insurance premiums when you've been there over a certain length of time, the employees earn CEU's at company expense all the time, PLUS, if an EMT wants to become a paramedic, the company will pay for it. PLUS, the owner makes personal loans to employees when they need help, and doe Daphne --------- RE: Employee Retention? Here's my take on what you need for employee retention, at least from my own perspective. In a nutshell, I want a livable wage, if I choose to work 2 jobs, it's because I want to, not because I have to in order to pay the rent and put food on my table. I hate to disagree, but I would rather have a check in my pocket, than a Christmas party and a picnic. I want decent insurance, one that pays the bills (excluding my copay), and one that doesn't insist on me seeing a quack because that's the one on their list. I want a retirement plan where after 20 years, I don't have to retire to get my pension, then immediately find a job to make ends meet. I want to respect EVERYONE in my chain of command, from the lowest level supervisor to the top dog, I don't want to work for someone (no matter what link they are in the chain) who is lazy, or has the feeling 'I've done that already, now I am a supervisor so I don't have to do it again' (regarding anything from stocking a truck, to mopping floors, to taking a call). I want a fair and impartial director, one who listens to everything, then makes a decision, regarding not only employees, but the need for new equipment, protocols etc. I want a medical director that knows my name, how many kids I have, and where I love, not someone who wouldn't recognize me if I hit him at an intersection. I want to pick where I live, I like the school district that my boys are in, they have the same group of friends that they have had for years, and I want them to finish high school like that. Why should I have to move? What if there isn't anything in your town that appeals to me (housing, schools, etc.)? I want decent trucks and equipment, if your idea of a decent truck and equipment is an 80's model van and a LP5, you're obsolete. I want to know that if I go to my boss with a problem, he'll either help me fix it, give me some advice, or tell me he has no earthly idea how to help me. I want an opportunity to move up within the ranks with competing with those that have no other ambition in life except to kiss the bosses...well...you know, and a boss that will recognize that such activities do not necessarily mean that such a person has the intelligence, or fortitude to lead when he is gone. I want to work with a group of people who are not afraid to jump a call when they know the other crew is wiped out and not totally restocked, " just because they can " , a group of people who are not insistent on writing up a missing alcohol wipe from your truck, but rather, stock it and make mention of it in a civilized manner. I want to work with a group of people that were hired because they were good, people that I would feel comfortable with if they were caring for me, not people who were hired for a patch and a pulse. You got that, you got me. I am lucky enough to have that where I am, good people, good boss, great equipment, incredible protocols. The only shortfall is the retirement, therefore, with my paycheck, (which pays the bills) I also invest towards my own retirement. Mike Hatfield FF/EMT-P Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 1, 2005 Report Share Posted August 1, 2005 OK Gene, how much did Henry pay you to say that? Are you recruiting for him now? I agree wholeheartedly it is now, and has always been one of the best services and managers in the state to work for. (Just make my check out to cash Henry) Chambers, LP Calhoun County EMS First of all, Henry, you're granted an exemption from any derogatory comment I may make about management. You're not the kind of manager I'm talking about, and I believe you know that. Any more of this nonsense I shall not up with put! (Aside for potential employees: If you have a chance to go to work for Henry, jump on it!). Gene Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 1, 2005 Report Share Posted August 1, 2005 They do it by carefully planning their budget, by making sure that their dispatchers are trained well and understand what pays and what does not, and if it is not a covered service, collecting up front, including by credit cards.....plus, that service does one hellava marketing job and has some good contracts. They are willing to take long distance trips when there is a definitive payer, and their marketing director stays in close contact with case managers at facilities. The entire staff makes very sure the facilities are getting the best bang for their buck....and making sure the service is quality from every employee and manager. In addition, it helps that they are in a market area where the majority of their patients are snow birds that have money and pay their bills. That's a huge part of good profits......knowing your market and the demographics of the area and going where the money is. In addition, they do not have the competiveness that is so prevalent in some areas of Texas. They also watch where the market is going, the trends, and adapt accordingly. It makes a huge difference to plan for the future, and do it well. Daphne --------- RE: Employee Retention? Here's my take on what you need for employee retention, at least from my own perspective. In a nutshell, I want a livable wage, if I choose to work 2 jobs, it's because I want to, not because I have to in order to pay the rent and put food on my table. I hate to disagree, but I would rather have a check in my pocket, than a Christmas party and a picnic. I want decent insurance, one that pays the bills (excluding my copay), and one that doesn't insist on me seeing a quack because that's the one on their list. I want a retirement plan where after 20 years, I don't have to retire to get my pension, then immediately find a job to make ends meet. I want to respect EVERYONE in my chain of command, from the lowest level supervisor to the top dog, I don't want to work for someone (no matter what link they are in the chain) who is lazy, or has the feeling 'I've done that already, now I am a supervisor so I don't have to do it again' (regarding anything from stocking a truck, to mopping floors, to taking a call). I want a fair and impartial director, one who listens to everything, then makes a decision, regarding not only employees, but the need for new equipment, protocols etc. I want a medical director that knows my name, how many kids I have, and where I love, not someone who wouldn't recognize me if I hit him at an intersection. I want to pick where I live, I like the school district that my boys are in, they have the same group of friends that they have had for years, and I want them to finish high school like that. Why should I have to move? What if there isn't anything in your town that appeals to me (housing, schools, etc.)? I want decent trucks and equipment, if your idea of a decent truck and equipment is an 80's model van and a LP5, you're obsolete. I want to know that if I go to my boss with a problem, he'll either help me fix it, give me some advice, or tell me he has no earthly idea how to help me. I want an opportunity to move up within the ranks with competing with those that have no other ambition in life except to kiss the bosses...well...you know, and a boss that will recognize that such activities do not necessarily mean that such a person has the intelligence, or fortitude to lead when he is gone. I want to work with a group of people who are not afraid to jump a call when they know the other crew is wiped out and not totally restocked, " just because they can " , a group of people who are not insistent on writing up a missing alcohol wipe from your truck, but rather, stock it and make mention of it in a civilized manner. I want to work with a group of people that were hired because they were good, people that I would feel comfortable with if they were caring for me, not people who were hired for a patch and a pulse. You got that, you got me. I am lucky enough to have that where I am, good people, good boss, great equipment, incredible protocols. The only shortfall is the retirement, therefore, with my paycheck, (which pays the bills) I also invest towards my own retirement. Mike Hatfield FF/EMT-P Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 2, 2005 Report Share Posted August 2, 2005 What company is this? Mike Behalf Of daphne.neill@... Since I personally know Nate's ambulance company, his management style, and what that company gives, I can assure you, he is telling the truth. His employees get a yearly raise, bonuses, extra pay for unusual hours, or late nights, and I believe he still pays extra when they work over their assigned shift hours. That's not counting the management open door policy. Even the owner had the managers evaluate HIS style and weak areas and dared them to try to sugar coat it. Not only do they have a retirement plan, but the owner adds to it from the year end profits and gives profit sharing. And, that's not counting getting all the holidays paid or off, lucrative vacations, the owner pays 100% of the health insurance premiums when you've been there over a certain length of time, the employees earn CEU's at company expense all the time, PLUS, if an EMT wants to become a paramedic, the company will pay for it. PLUS, the owner makes personal loans to employees when they need help, and does not charge interest. AND, that company makes profits and it's integrity is above reproach. There is not one part of that company that commits any kind of fraud. Daphne Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 2, 2005 Report Share Posted August 2, 2005 Man you cut deep! However, just once I would like to see someone put out there the managers point of view. Even good EMS employees will bitch about everything. You and I both know that sometimes respect is the only thing a manager can give to the employee. Respect does not necessarily mean a pat on the back every damn day. When I hire an employee, I expect them to do the job I hired them to do. I expect them to do it right and I mean right every time. I don't give out ATTA Boys. I do however, go to bat for the employee when necessary and support them when they are right. You come to work for me, doing a good job is expected. If you base everything in regards to management on complaints from employees, you are getting just one side of the story. I am a believer that rank and file Paramedics can be good managers. Sometimes their manager school comes from experience. So does almost all of life learning. How do you become a people? You learn it the hard way in life. I wasn't picking on you and I am sure you have studied your subject. I do not always agree with you in regards to management. EMS is a tough business that needs tough managers and even tougher medics. I sometimes wonder if all those folks that wrote management books were really good managers or just good book writers. Sometimes it is eaiser to be a good manager when you have a business that has the potential to make money and thus allow you to do more for your employees. EMS is a money looser where our stockholders all think we charge to much anyway. Still buds, Henry wegandy1938@... wrote: > First of all, Henry, you're granted an exemption from any derogatory comment > I may make about management. You're not the kind of manager I'm talking > about, and I believe you know that. Any more of this nonsense I shall not up > with put! (Aside for potential employees: If you have a chance to go to work > for Henry, jump on it!). > > I study management theory. I have managed a volunteer service for 10 years, > a law practice specializing in labor law, a large college department for 15 > years, and I have served on the Texas Leadership Management Task Force, which > developed the curriculum for the Leadership Academy, so somebody thought I knew > something about management. > > I use Mcs as an example because I have studied their management > manuals. Further, I have read all the materials my wife read in getting her MBA. > I have seen good managers in action, and I have seen bad managers in action, > and I know the difference. > > Good management principles are not secret. How do I know how management > works in EMS? I get dozens of communications yearly from employees describing > the horrible working conditions under which they labor. > > It doesn't take an Einstein to see the differences in good and bad > management. Now get back to your fishing and leave me alone! > > Gene > > > > Gene, > > > > Why is it that the folks who are not in management the ones that are always > > complaining about poor management. Too many times the issue in a service is > > something that a manager has no control over. If Mcs is damn good, how > > come they can never get my order straight? I have heard you rant on this subj > > many times before and I would ask: From where do you get your perspective in > > regards to EMS management. Are you a > > manager? Have you ever been one? Have you worked for Mcs? Where? > > > > Henry > > Heh Heh > > > > wegandy1938@... wrote: > > > > > Meris, > > > > > > I feel your pain. I recently wrote a rant about poor management in EMS, > > and > > > I am convinced that EMS suffers from a very high incidence of poor > > > management. > > > > > > EMS managers typically have become managers without ever studying > > management. > > > > > > > > > Employee retention ought to be a high priority because it costs so much to > > > replace an employee. But EMS managers are not taught to look at factor > > like > > > that. They're only interested in producing income and cutting tangible > > costs. > > > Intangibles are beyond them. > > > > > > Companies like Mcs invest mega bucks in training people for > > management. > > > EMS invests zilch. > > > > > > I don't see a change in this until all the big company managers and their > > > progeny have retired or died. That won't be soon. > > > > > > As usual, I make some generalizations, and it should be noted that there > > are > > > always exceptions to every rule. Unfortunatately not enough exceptions. > > > > > > Gene G. > > > > > > > > > > OK... > > > > > > > > Is it just me, or is there a sickening trend in EMS to > > > > have a high turnover rate? I can't seem to find any > > > > statistics or other data on this, but I feel that it > > > > happens more than we'd like to think. Am I alone in > > > > this feeling? > > > > > > > > If anyone has any hard numbers, I'd like to see them. > > > > I think the last data I heard from 3 or 4 years ago > > > > was about 25%. I don't think we turn over as much as > > > > Mcs employees, but lately I'm not so sure about > > > > that either. > > > > > > > > Matter of fact, I think I'd make more money if I went > > > > to work at Mcs. My last job I made $10 an hour > > > > as a Paramedic. That's absolutely absurd! It's > > > > almost poverty level! I was working 4 jobs just to > > > > make ends meet, and not doing it. I made $11 an hour > > > > as an Intermediate at a very small, very rural > > > > service, before, with about 1/4 the income of the $10 > > > > an hour place. Where does all the money go? > > > > Certainly not back into employees, safety equipment, > > > > better supplies, etc... > > > > > > > > I believe it is something SO many services have no > > > > concept of, even though the business world has known > > > > for YEARS that you have to take care of your > > > > employees. EMS services (for the most part) tend to > > > > get by with giving as little to their employees as > > > > possible, seeing how much flack they can take before > > > > breaking, and still have the audacity to wonder why > > > > people call in sick, get unlikely " injuries " and > > > > refuse to work OT. They wonder why people leave as > > > > fast as possible to go to bigger services, where they > > > > may be treated the same, but the money is a good > > > > enough band-aid that they keep their heads down. > > > > > > > > I have seen the apathy growing, not only in myself, > > > > but in others. If we continue this disturbing trend, > > > > we may soon run out of Medics. Nobody is getting into > > > > EMS because it's " noble " anymore. It's just a job, > > > > and not a great one at that, for the lack of benifits > > > > and support we get. Where do we go from here? > > > > > > > > Feeling burned, and burned out...... > > > > -Meris :-| > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________ > > > > Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page > > > > http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 2, 2005 Report Share Posted August 2, 2005 It is a simple principle of rewarding people who work. Yes reimbursement is declining, however there are other ways to stay profitable without doing anything wrong, illegal, ect. Our employees want to work for us. The average Paramedic in our company makes $12.00 PER HOUR Plus bonuses based on the amount of money their ambulance makes in a day, double time for being on call. (Our formula) We just bought three new ambulances and will be buying 2 more this year so no our equipment doesn't suffer If anyone would like, I extend a personal invitation to come to visit our company to see how we do it. Working like dogs yes I would say that our employees do work hard. And when they do we reward them for it. Our company is run by people who have M.B.A. B.A. and Years of experience in the industry. We pay for services that we utilize to the max. We developed relationships with the hospitals fire departments and other services in our area. Not to mention that we were hit directly by hurricane Charley last year (this will tell you where we are at) our staff came from all over to work and never wanted to leave. Not for the money but because they didn't want to see our company fold with the big Company in town trying to say that we weren't in business anymore and they weren't going anywhere soon. They left quick because they didn't get any work while they were here becuase of the relationships that we have. People, that is our business our customers, our Hospitals, Patients, Nursing homes and our staff. Come see for yourself! Nate RE: Employee Retention? Since I personally know Nate's ambulance company, his management style, and what that company gives, I can assure you, he is telling the truth. His employees get a yearly raise, bonuses, extra pay for unusual hours, or late nights, and I believe he still pays extra when they work over their assigned shift hours. That's not counting the management open door policy. Even the owner had the managers evaluate HIS style and weak areas and dared them to try to sugar coat it. Not only do they have a retirement plan, but the owner adds to it from the year end profits and gives profit sharing. And, that's not counting getting all the holidays paid or off, lucrative vacations, the owner pays 100% of the health insurance premiums when you've been there over a certain length of time, the employees earn CEU's at company expense all the time, PLUS, if an EMT wants to become a paramedic, the company will pay for it. PLUS, the owner makes personal loans to employees when they need help, and doe Daphne --------- RE: Employee Retention? Here's my take on what you need for employee retention, at least from my own perspective. In a nutshell, I want a livable wage, if I choose to work 2 jobs, it's because I want to, not because I have to in order to pay the rent and put food on my table. I hate to disagree, but I would rather have a check in my pocket, than a Christmas party and a picnic. I want decent insurance, one that pays the bills (excluding my copay), and one that doesn't insist on me seeing a quack because that's the one on their list. I want a retirement plan where after 20 years, I don't have to retire to get my pension, then immediately find a job to make ends meet. I want to respect EVERYONE in my chain of command, from the lowest level supervisor to the top dog, I don't want to work for someone (no matter what link they are in the chain) who is lazy, or has the feeling 'I've done that already, now I am a supervisor so I don't have to do it again' (regarding anything from stocking a truck, to mopping floors, to taking a call). I want a fair and impartial director, one who listens to everything, then makes a decision, regarding not only employees, but the need for new equipment, protocols etc. I want a medical director that knows my name, how many kids I have, and where I love, not someone who wouldn't recognize me if I hit him at an intersection. I want to pick where I live, I like the school district that my boys are in, they have the same group of friends that they have had for years, and I want them to finish high school like that. Why should I have to move? What if there isn't anything in your town that appeals to me (housing, schools, etc.)? I want decent trucks and equipment, if your idea of a decent truck and equipment is an 80's model van and a LP5, you're obsolete. I want to know that if I go to my boss with a problem, he'll either help me fix it, give me some advice, or tell me he has no earthly idea how to help me. I want an opportunity to move up within the ranks with competing with those that have no other ambition in life except to kiss the bosses...well...you know, and a boss that will recognize that such activities do not necessarily mean that such a person has the intelligence, or fortitude to lead when he is gone. I want to work with a group of people who are not afraid to jump a call when they know the other crew is wiped out and not totally restocked, " just because they can " , a group of people who are not insistent on writing up a missing alcohol wipe from your truck, but rather, stock it and make mention of it in a civilized manner. I want to work with a group of people that were hired because they were good, people that I would feel comfortable with if they were caring for me, not people who were hired for a patch and a pulse. You got that, you got me. I am lucky enough to have that where I am, good people, good boss, great equipment, incredible protocols. The only shortfall is the retirement, therefore, with my paycheck, (which pays the bills) I also invest towards my own retirement. Mike Hatfield FF/EMT-P Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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