Re: Nada's enduring insistence on delusion

[Guest guest]

Whoa - - Dude!

I'm speachless!!!!

Can I ask what your nada did for a living? Just wondering - I'm very

interested in BPD and career/life impacts.

I don't even know what to say - all my hugs to you. And the devil on my

shoulders says " If you COULD do those things, it would be COOL! "

On Thu, Oct 14, 2010 at 6:12 AM, christine.depizan <

christine.depizan@...> wrote:

>

>

> When I was born my nada developed post partum psychosis.She was never

> treated for it (as far as I know/she said) and it resolved itself when I was

> about ten months old.From what I have read about post partum psychosis that

> can and does happen although obviously it's much better for all concerned if

> the mother is actually treated.

>

> I didn't even know about it until I was twenty two years old and nada

> started telling me some bizarre stuff during a conversation we were

> having,more like a sort of confession.She was sure I would understand what

> she was talking about,she said--and she had never told anyone else about

> what had happened when I was a baby.

>

> She told me that as a *newborn* I had purposefully put thoughts into her

> head,such as ordering her to get into the car and drive it into something

> " going fast " .I had also had the ability to make myself disappear within days

> of arriving home from the hospital and that by the time I was six months old

> had fine honed this skill into being able to turn myself into a series of

> floating dots that would appear and dissolve: somtimes my whole

> body,sometimes just my face.Or I could immerse us both in an otherwordly

> glowing light while she was nursing me--something I did at times to reassure

> her and at other times to torment her.

>

> Among other clearly impossible feats. " I always knew you weren't like

> anybody else " ,she said that day--while I was thinking: Ok,I always knew you

> were insane and here's real proof...

>

> I went to the library that evening and looked up her symptoms.Unfortunately

> I didn't happen across BPD but did find information about post partum

> psychosis.What I couldn't figure out was why she continued to be

> delusional,although not to that extreme degree,afterward.

>

> Since then I have read stories and testimonies from women who had post

> partum psychosis.An interesting distinction between women who had been

> mentally healthy prior to having post partum psychosis and women who had

> been mentally ill prior and/or were psychotic in addition to the post partum

> psychosis is that the mentally healthy women were able to recognize to

> varying degrees that something was very wrong with them in the

> days/weeks/months after having their babies while the mentally ill women

> uniformly took the post partum psychosis literally even when it was causing

> them distress.The other thing that struck me is that the mentally healthy

> women all knew for a fact after their post partum psychosis had subsided

> that the thoughts and ideas they had been having about their babies were

> abnormal products of the psychosis they had been suffering from.None of the

> mentally healthy women tried to justify having had any of those thoughts or

> to " normalize " them: they fully understood that they had been mentally ill

> at the time and across the board they thanked god that they hadn't harmed

> their babies.

>

> The mentally ill mothers,on the other hand,had to have this explained to

> them *even once they were no longer experiencing post partum psychosis*.

>

> All of these women had had symptoms quite similar to nada's.So,although my

> nada no longer actively believed when I was twenty two that I was " putting

> thoughts " into her head--nor had she continued to believe this after the

> post partum psychosis itself had abated--she continued to believe that all

> of it had actually happened.

>

> I'm talking about a high functioning person who had a career,was a well

> respected " pillar of the community " ; who from all outward public appearances

> was as sane as anybody else--and who was walking around thinking that a

> newborn had ordered her to go and crash her car.

>

> She had had twenty two years to figure out that it would be impossible for

> a newborn who can't even talk to formulate coherent thought " sentences "

> and/or to figure out that since a newborn cannot possibly have any

> conception of what a car is or does (let alone know that people drive them

> and can crash them),that there is no way *I* could have ordered her go kill

> herself with the family car.

>

> But none of that had occurred to her.Even though she could function so well

> out in the " world " that she was widely admired and respected,her inner

> thoughts about me were based on delusions that a mentally healthy person

> would know were false.

>

> Yet she was canny enough to know that she would be seen as insane if she

> told anyone what she really believed about me as a baby.So she only told

> me, " the guilty party " in her mind.She was canny enough to pretend to

> everyone else that I had merely been a high strung baby who had colic and

> recurrent ear infections,portraying herself as an exhausted first time

> mother.I think this is what she did even while she was actually in the grip

> of post partum psychosis.

>

> In the stories I read by mentally healthy mothers who had post partum

> psychosis they all asked themselves while it was happening: What is wrong

> with *me*? And it was when they caught themselves verging into blaming their

> babies and wanting to hurt them that they knew they needed help.None of

> them,of course,blamed their babies afterward for " causing " their post partum

> psychosis.

>

> But my nada did,continued to blame me years after the fact.Continued to

> hold me responsible.Continued to see *herself* as my innocent,hapless

> victim.Continued to believe that she had " always " known there was something

> " wrong " with *me*! And she had proof: even as a newborn I had been

> otherwordly weird and had intentionally terrorized her.

>

> All of this while being able to function in her outward life and never

> *getting* how bizarre her beliefs about me were.

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

, I too am awestruck: what a profound and very important insight you've

discovered, RE the women who were mentally healthy before post-partum psychosis

being able to perceive that something was badly wrong with their thinking /

perceptions, but the women who were mentally ill before post-partum psychosis

were not able to

perceive that they were hallucinating or having paranoid delusions; instead the

mentally-ill women believed what they were perceiving was *real* and that it was

their infant causing it, deliberately.

Holy freaking cow.

I'll say it again: you are lucky to be alive, . The fact that you

survived your childhood at all is a true miracle.

I wish you could write a paper about this and submit it to the American

Psychiatric Association so that they would have a deeper and more expanded

understanding of how the presence of personality disorder and other mental

illnesses have a profoundly negative impact on any children born to such

individuals, both with and without the complicating factor of post-partum

psychosis.

Like your nada (but not as severely) my nada also blamed me, her infant, for

rejecting and hating her, and she admitted this to me much the way yours did,

sort of casually, as though it was a normal thing that infants had the power to

do: have adult-level thoughts, the ability to make adult-level decisions, and

judge her in a negative way. My dad ended up arranging for his mother to come

and spend a few weeks (months?) taking care of newborn me and teaching my mother

how to do it, because my mother was overwhelmed and wasn't dealing well with the

whole thing. Makes me wonder if nada too had post-partum depression (or

psychosis)? Nada did not like her mother-in-law at all, so it had to be a

pretty extreme situation for dad's mom to come and stay with them. For unknown

reasons, my nada's parents were on an extended vacation at the time of my birth,

which I always thought was odd.

-Annie

>

> When I was born my nada developed post partum psychosis.She was never treated

for it (as far as I know/she said) and it resolved itself when I was about ten

months old.From what I have read about post partum psychosis that can and does

happen although obviously it's much better for all concerned if the mother is

actually treated.

>

> I didn't even know about it until I was twenty two years old and nada

started telling me some bizarre stuff during a conversation we were having,more

like a sort of confession.She was sure I would understand what she was talking

about,she said--and she had never told anyone else about what had happened when

I was a baby.

>

> She told me that as a *newborn* I had purposefully put thoughts into her

head,such as ordering her to get into the car and drive it into something " going

fast " .I had also had the ability to make myself disappear within days of

arriving home from the hospital and that by the time I was six months old had

fine honed this skill into being able to turn myself into a series of floating

dots that would appear and dissolve: somtimes my whole body,sometimes just my

face.Or I could immerse us both in an otherwordly glowing light while she was

nursing me--something I did at times to reassure her and at other times to

torment her.

>

> Among other clearly impossible feats. " I always knew you weren't like

anybody else " ,she said that day--while I was thinking: Ok,I always knew you were

insane and here's real proof...

[Guest guest]

Well,Girlscout,to answer your question:

Nada was an elementary school teacher as her main job.She was very good

at it: enthusiastically engaged with the students,very creative with her

lessons--she taught in an economically deprived town and all of her students did

well in her classes year after year and " academically struggling students " were

regularly assigned to her class so she could get them back on track.But that was

how nada was: she had to be the best; she had to shine.Nothing less than

" Teacher of the Year " would do.

In the summertime she worked as a " professional storyteller " doing

summer programs at local libraries.She was a very talented storyteller who knew

how to keep her audience riveted and she could do that with toddlers through to

teenagers.She knew hundreds of folktales and fairy tales by heart.She often had

to turn down engagements because she was overbooked.

When I was a teenager she sent some submissions to a nationally

distributed educator's magazine and they liked them so much they ended up giving

her her OWN PAGE.Not just a column but an entire section.She wrote about

specific solutions to academic problems; unusual and educational craft/science

projects (and had a photographer assigned to help her); *child abuse awareness

and reporting*--she had seen quite a bit of that in her school and she did

report suspected abuse--one section she wrote on that subject got so much

feedback a publishing house agent contacted her to write an entire book of her

own personal experience as a teacher dealing with abused students.Which she

tried to do but couldn't manage--she wasn't able to sustain interest in long

detailed projects and I think she also feared on some level exposing herself as

a fraud if she became some sort of public spokesperson for abused chldren.That

might be wishful thinking though!At any rate she was prolific with her

contributions to the magazine because she had lots and lots of ideas and knew

how to package them.She wound up on the editorial board,then also the board of

directors.

She seemed outwardly to be someone who really had it all together.With

the teaching she had perfected her technique so much she could have done it

blind folded,so even though that was a daily hours long contact thing there was

little chance her mask would slip.With the storytelling,that was only for a

couple of hours at a time at most--so it was easy to leave the impression of

someone who really had her act together because she did,literally.She excelled

at that because it was all *acting*.With the magazine,it was *nada* who chose

what to submit,so she was in control of the image she was presenting.Again with

the editorial board and board of directors,nada was the one in control and the

one calling the shots or making the suggestions.

She hadn't even wanted to go to college.My grandfather had to cajole

her into it.That was in the late 1950s and he gave her only two career options:

become a nurse or a schoolteacher.

She found the whole idea of nursing abhorrent.Taking care of sick

people--yuck!!! But she did a summer gig as a camp counselor for mentally

retarded children and came home all psyched: she had discovered that there is

*power* over others' minds if you teach and she told my grandfather: I have

decided to opt for school teaching...

Thanks for the hugs Nada was kind of a superstar in our little sphere

and I often felt like the contours of my own being were obliterated because I

was constantly standing in her shadow.

>

> Whoa - - Dude!

> I'm speachless!!!!

>

> Can I ask what your nada did for a living? Just wondering - I'm very

> interested in BPD and career/life impacts.

>

> I don't even know what to say - all my hugs to you. And the devil on my

> shoulders says " If you COULD do those things, it would be COOL! "

[Guest guest]

--

I'm so sorry. How brutal. It sounds like your lucky to be alive.

I admire you for doing your research. That brings up so many difficulties,

doesn't it? She's functional and insane. She still blames you and holds you

responsible for psychotic delusions. She's convinced everyone it was your

fault, in a subtle way. She can't even see a " flaw " in herself that was so

extremely obvious. You are now the keeper of her dirty secret. She can

ACTUALLY believe those psychotic delusions as though they were real, but somehow

she can be " normal " and functioning for everyone else. And we can go on and on.

It is earth-shattering to realize the foundation your mother chose for your

relationship was resentment, blame, and insanity. I mean . . . all of this

happened before you even spoke your first word or even smiled or rolled over by

yourself.

I'm so sorry.

Your research really helped me, though. It seems to highlight all of the stuff

about BPD we can't get our finger around sometimes. Yes, they really are that

insane. No, other people would never believe it. Yes, they actually blame

their newborns (and children, for the rest of our lives) for all of the crazy

s*** that goes on in their heads.

And yes, you are in a BPD trap. Exactly where are you supposed to go with this?

Talk to her more? Tell her she's insane? Go tell her friends and coworkers?

Announce to the world? You come out to be the bad guy, no matter what you do.

And all you did was be a precious baby twenty-two years ago.

Wow.

I'm on your side, if that makes a difference. I've been through severe

postpartum depression. It makes me even MORE angry at your nada. How dare she

blame it on you. You were a freakin' baby!!! I haven't even told my son the

extent of how sick I was, nor will I ever. How could he hear that and not feel

guilty? I would never put him through that--there would be absolutely no

benefit to anyone. The fact that your nada would exploit her illness against

you makes me sick.

((((((((((HUGS))))))))))))))

And Blessings,

Karla

>

> When I was born my nada developed post partum psychosis.She was never treated

for it (as far as I know/she said) and it resolved itself when I was about ten

months old.From what I have read about post partum psychosis that can and does

happen although obviously it's much better for all concerned if the mother is

actually treated.

>

> I didn't even know about it until I was twenty two years old and nada

started telling me some bizarre stuff during a conversation we were having,more

like a sort of confession.She was sure I would understand what she was talking

about,she said--and she had never told anyone else about what had happened when

I was a baby.

>

> She told me that as a *newborn* I had purposefully put thoughts into her

head,such as ordering her to get into the car and drive it into something " going

fast " .I had also had the ability to make myself disappear within days of

arriving home from the hospital and that by the time I was six months old had

fine honed this skill into being able to turn myself into a series of floating

dots that would appear and dissolve: somtimes my whole body,sometimes just my

face.Or I could immerse us both in an otherwordly glowing light while she was

nursing me--something I did at times to reassure her and at other times to

torment her.

>

> Among other clearly impossible feats. " I always knew you weren't like

anybody else " ,she said that day--while I was thinking: Ok,I always knew you were

insane and here's real proof...

>

> I went to the library that evening and looked up her

symptoms.Unfortunately I didn't happen across BPD but did find information about

post partum psychosis.What I couldn't figure out was why she continued to be

delusional,although not to that extreme degree,afterward.

>

> Since then I have read stories and testimonies from women who had post

partum psychosis.An interesting distinction between women who had been mentally

healthy prior to having post partum psychosis and women who had been mentally

ill prior and/or were psychotic in addition to the post partum psychosis is that

the mentally healthy women were able to recognize to varying degrees that

something was very wrong with them in the days/weeks/months after having their

babies while the mentally ill women uniformly took the post partum psychosis

literally even when it was causing them distress.The other thing that struck me

is that the mentally healthy women all knew for a fact after their post partum

psychosis had subsided that the thoughts and ideas they had been having about

their babies were abnormal products of the psychosis they had been suffering

from.None of the mentally healthy women tried to justify having had any of those

thoughts or to " normalize " them: they fully understood that they had been

mentally ill at the time and across the board they thanked god that they hadn't

harmed their babies.

>

> The mentally ill mothers,on the other hand,had to have this explained

to them *even once they were no longer experiencing post partum psychosis*.

>

> All of these women had had symptoms quite similar to

nada's.So,although my nada no longer actively believed when I was twenty two

that I was " putting thoughts " into her head--nor had she continued to believe

this after the post partum psychosis itself had abated--she continued to believe

that all of it had actually happened.

>

> I'm talking about a high functioning person who had a career,was a well

respected " pillar of the community " ; who from all outward public appearances was

as sane as anybody else--and who was walking around thinking that a newborn had

ordered her to go and crash her car.

>

> She had had twenty two years to figure out that it would be

impossible for a newborn who can't even talk to formulate coherent thought

" sentences " and/or to figure out that since a newborn cannot possibly have any

conception of what a car is or does (let alone know that people drive them and

can crash them),that there is no way *I* could have ordered her go kill herself

with the family car.

>

> But none of that had occurred to her.Even though she could function

so well out in the " world " that she was widely admired and respected,her inner

thoughts about me were based on delusions that a mentally healthy person would

know were false.

>

> Yet she was canny enough to know that she would be seen as insane if

she told anyone what she really believed about me as a baby.So she only told

me, " the guilty party " in her mind.She was canny enough to pretend to everyone

else that I had merely been a high strung baby who had colic and recurrent ear

infections,portraying herself as an exhausted first time mother.I think this is

what she did even while she was actually in the grip of post partum psychosis.

>

> In the stories I read by mentally healthy mothers who had post partum

psychosis they all asked themselves while it was happening: What is wrong with

*me*? And it was when they caught themselves verging into blaming their babies

and wanting to hurt them that they knew they needed help.None of them,of

course,blamed their babies afterward for " causing " their post partum psychosis.

>

> But my nada did,continued to blame me years after the fact.Continued

to hold me responsible.Continued to see *herself* as my innocent,hapless

victim.Continued to believe that she had " always " known there was something

" wrong " with *me*! And she had proof: even as a newborn I had been otherwordly

weird and had intentionally terrorized her.

>

> All of this while being able to function in her outward life and never

*getting* how bizarre her beliefs about me were.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Nada saying that she knew something was wrong with you is only a projection of

her " there's something wrong with me " to you ofcourse.

I have all the respect and understanding for individuals suffering from mental

illness but in case of BPDs they're not able to take responsibility for their

actions and as you said to admit that they have mental illness. God forbid, if

anyone accuse or even suggest that they have it.

>

> When I was born my nada developed post partum psychosis.She was never treated

for it (as far as I know/she said) and it resolved itself when I was about ten

months old.From what I have read about post partum psychosis that can and does

happen although obviously it's much better for all concerned if the mother is

actually treated.

>

> I didn't even know about it until I was twenty two years old and nada

started telling me some bizarre stuff during a conversation we were having,more

like a sort of confession.She was sure I would understand what she was talking

about,she said--and she had never told anyone else about what had happened when

I was a baby.

>

> She told me that as a *newborn* I had purposefully put thoughts into her

head,such as ordering her to get into the car and drive it into something " going

fast " .I had also had the ability to make myself disappear within days of

arriving home from the hospital and that by the time I was six months old had

fine honed this skill into being able to turn myself into a series of floating

dots that would appear and dissolve: somtimes my whole body,sometimes just my

face.Or I could immerse us both in an otherwordly glowing light while she was

nursing me--something I did at times to reassure her and at other times to

torment her.

>

> Among other clearly impossible feats. " I always knew you weren't like

anybody else " ,she said that day--while I was thinking: Ok,I always knew you were

insane and here's real proof...

>

> I went to the library that evening and looked up her

symptoms.Unfortunately I didn't happen across BPD but did find information about

post partum psychosis.What I couldn't figure out was why she continued to be

delusional,although not to that extreme degree,afterward.

>

> Since then I have read stories and testimonies from women who had post

partum psychosis.An interesting distinction between women who had been mentally

healthy prior to having post partum psychosis and women who had been mentally

ill prior and/or were psychotic in addition to the post partum psychosis is that

the mentally healthy women were able to recognize to varying degrees that

something was very wrong with them in the days/weeks/months after having their

babies while the mentally ill women uniformly took the post partum psychosis

literally even when it was causing them distress.The other thing that struck me

is that the mentally healthy women all knew for a fact after their post partum

psychosis had subsided that the thoughts and ideas they had been having about

their babies were abnormal products of the psychosis they had been suffering

from.None of the mentally healthy women tried to justify having had any of those

thoughts or to " normalize " them: they fully understood that they had been

mentally ill at the time and across the board they thanked god that they hadn't

harmed their babies.

>

> The mentally ill mothers,on the other hand,had to have this explained

to them *even once they were no longer experiencing post partum psychosis*.

>

> All of these women had had symptoms quite similar to

nada's.So,although my nada no longer actively believed when I was twenty two

that I was " putting thoughts " into her head--nor had she continued to believe

this after the post partum psychosis itself had abated--she continued to believe

that all of it had actually happened.

>

> I'm talking about a high functioning person who had a career,was a well

respected " pillar of the community " ; who from all outward public appearances was

as sane as anybody else--and who was walking around thinking that a newborn had

ordered her to go and crash her car.

>

> She had had twenty two years to figure out that it would be

impossible for a newborn who can't even talk to formulate coherent thought

" sentences " and/or to figure out that since a newborn cannot possibly have any

conception of what a car is or does (let alone know that people drive them and

can crash them),that there is no way *I* could have ordered her go kill herself

with the family car.

>

> But none of that had occurred to her.Even though she could function

so well out in the " world " that she was widely admired and respected,her inner

thoughts about me were based on delusions that a mentally healthy person would

know were false.

>

> Yet she was canny enough to know that she would be seen as insane if

she told anyone what she really believed about me as a baby.So she only told

me, " the guilty party " in her mind.She was canny enough to pretend to everyone

else that I had merely been a high strung baby who had colic and recurrent ear

infections,portraying herself as an exhausted first time mother.I think this is

what she did even while she was actually in the grip of post partum psychosis.

>

> In the stories I read by mentally healthy mothers who had post partum

psychosis they all asked themselves while it was happening: What is wrong with

*me*? And it was when they caught themselves verging into blaming their babies

and wanting to hurt them that they knew they needed help.None of them,of

course,blamed their babies afterward for " causing " their post partum psychosis.

>

> But my nada did,continued to blame me years after the fact.Continued

to hold me responsible.Continued to see *herself* as my innocent,hapless

victim.Continued to believe that she had " always " known there was something

" wrong " with *me*! And she had proof: even as a newborn I had been otherwordly

weird and had intentionally terrorized her.

>

> All of this while being able to function in her outward life and never

*getting* how bizarre her beliefs about me were.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

In the absence of psychosis, I agree that such a statement would be true:

" There's something wrong with you. " is 's mother is projecting her own

unwanted, negative feelings about herself onto her newborn.

But when the individual is psychotic (with post-partum psychosis, for example)

she is having a break with reality and is no longer able to discern what is real

and what is a hallucination, then its not projecting, its that she truly

believes the hallucinations are real.

(And I have to say that while some of the hallucinations were blood-chillingly

horrifying, such as believing that newborn was commanding nada via

mental telepathy to kill herself, other hallucinations were pretty creative,

such as newborn being able to break herself into floating dots,

disappear, and reappear somewhere else. Wow...!)

On the other hand, projecting is a refusal to acknowledge and own one's own

" bad " feelings or wishes, flinging them onto someone else, then believing that

the " bad " thoughts/feelings are coming from that other individual... that sure

seems like a break with reality too, now that I think about it.

I don't know; I'm just ruminating " out loud " , so to speak, and I'm no

psychologist.

-Annie

> >

> > When I was born my nada developed post partum psychosis.She was never

treated for it (as far as I know/she said) and it resolved itself when I was

about ten months old.From what I have read about post partum psychosis that can

and does happen although obviously it's much better for all concerned if the

mother is actually treated.

> >

> > I didn't even know about it until I was twenty two years old and nada

started telling me some bizarre stuff during a conversation we were having,more

like a sort of confession.She was sure I would understand what she was talking

about,she said--and she had never told anyone else about what had happened when

I was a baby.

> >

> > She told me that as a *newborn* I had purposefully put thoughts into

her head,such as ordering her to get into the car and drive it into something

" going fast " .I had also had the ability to make myself disappear within days of

arriving home from the hospital and that by the time I was six months old had

fine honed this skill into being able to turn myself into a series of floating

dots that would appear and dissolve: somtimes my whole body,sometimes just my

face.Or I could immerse us both in an otherwordly glowing light while she was

nursing me--something I did at times to reassure her and at other times to

torment her.

> >

> > Among other clearly impossible feats. " I always knew you weren't like

anybody else " ,she said that day--while I was thinking: Ok,I always knew you were

insane and here's real proof...

> >

> > I went to the library that evening and looked up her

symptoms.Unfortunately I didn't happen across BPD but did find information about

post partum psychosis.What I couldn't figure out was why she continued to be

delusional,although not to that extreme degree,afterward.

> >

> > Since then I have read stories and testimonies from women who had

post partum psychosis.An interesting distinction between women who had been

mentally healthy prior to having post partum psychosis and women who had been

mentally ill prior and/or were psychotic in addition to the post partum

psychosis is that the mentally healthy women were able to recognize to varying

degrees that something was very wrong with them in the days/weeks/months after

having their babies while the mentally ill women uniformly took the post partum

psychosis literally even when it was causing them distress.The other thing that

struck me is that the mentally healthy women all knew for a fact after their

post partum psychosis had subsided that the thoughts and ideas they had been

having about their babies were abnormal products of the psychosis they had been

suffering from.None of the mentally healthy women tried to justify having had

any of those thoughts or to " normalize " them: they fully understood that they

had been mentally ill at the time and across the board they thanked god that

they hadn't harmed their babies.

> >

> > The mentally ill mothers,on the other hand,had to have this

explained to them *even once they were no longer experiencing post partum

psychosis*.

> >

> > All of these women had had symptoms quite similar to

nada's.So,although my nada no longer actively believed when I was twenty two

that I was " putting thoughts " into her head--nor had she continued to believe

this after the post partum psychosis itself had abated--she continued to believe

that all of it had actually happened.

> >

> > I'm talking about a high functioning person who had a career,was a

well respected " pillar of the community " ; who from all outward public

appearances was as sane as anybody else--and who was walking around thinking

that a newborn had ordered her to go and crash her car.

> >

> > She had had twenty two years to figure out that it would be

impossible for a newborn who can't even talk to formulate coherent thought

" sentences " and/or to figure out that since a newborn cannot possibly have any

conception of what a car is or does (let alone know that people drive them and

can crash them),that there is no way *I* could have ordered her go kill herself

with the family car.

> >

> > But none of that had occurred to her.Even though she could function

so well out in the " world " that she was widely admired and respected,her inner

thoughts about me were based on delusions that a mentally healthy person would

know were false.

> >

> > Yet she was canny enough to know that she would be seen as insane if

she told anyone what she really believed about me as a baby.So she only told

me, " the guilty party " in her mind.She was canny enough to pretend to everyone

else that I had merely been a high strung baby who had colic and recurrent ear

infections,portraying herself as an exhausted first time mother.I think this is

what she did even while she was actually in the grip of post partum psychosis.

> >

> > In the stories I read by mentally healthy mothers who had post partum

psychosis they all asked themselves while it was happening: What is wrong with

*me*? And it was when they caught themselves verging into blaming their babies

and wanting to hurt them that they knew they needed help.None of them,of

course,blamed their babies afterward for " causing " their post partum psychosis.

> >

> > But my nada did,continued to blame me years after the fact.Continued

to hold me responsible.Continued to see *herself* as my innocent,hapless

victim.Continued to believe that she had " always " known there was something

" wrong " with *me*! And she had proof: even as a newborn I had been otherwordly

weird and had intentionally terrorized her.

> >

> > All of this while being able to function in her outward life and

never *getting* how bizarre her beliefs about me were.

> >

> >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Wow , echoing others here that it is a miracle you are alive. What

reaction did you show when she told you these things? Did she understand it was

psychosis by the time you were 22 or was she still believing those things

happened? Reading your post about how she was a school teacher it almost makes

me wonder if she has true alternate personalities. I don't know if that's even

possible - for a person to contain a saintly teacher personality and a crazy

abusive mother personality. Anyway, I'm glad you made it out of there to have a

good life.

>

> When I was born my nada developed post partum psychosis.She was never treated

for it (as far as I know/she said) and it resolved itself when I was about ten

months old.From what I have read about post partum psychosis that can and does

happen although obviously it's much better for all concerned if the mother is

actually treated.

>

> I didn't even know about it until I was twenty two years old and nada

started telling me some bizarre stuff during a conversation we were having,more

like a sort of confession.She was sure I would understand what she was talking

about,she said--and she had never told anyone else about what had happened when

I was a baby.

>

> She told me that as a *newborn* I had purposefully put thoughts into her

head,such as ordering her to get into the car and drive it into something " going

fast " .I had also had the ability to make myself disappear within days of

arriving home from the hospital and that by the time I was six months old had

fine honed this skill into being able to turn myself into a series of floating

dots that would appear and dissolve: somtimes my whole body,sometimes just my

face.Or I could immerse us both in an otherwordly glowing light while she was

nursing me--something I did at times to reassure her and at other times to

torment her.

>

> Among other clearly impossible feats. " I always knew you weren't like

anybody else " ,she said that day--while I was thinking: Ok,I always knew you were

insane and here's real proof...

>

> I went to the library that evening and looked up her

symptoms.Unfortunately I didn't happen across BPD but did find information about

post partum psychosis.What I couldn't figure out was why she continued to be

delusional,although not to that extreme degree,afterward.

>

> Since then I have read stories and testimonies from women who had post

partum psychosis.An interesting distinction between women who had been mentally

healthy prior to having post partum psychosis and women who had been mentally

ill prior and/or were psychotic in addition to the post partum psychosis is that

the mentally healthy women were able to recognize to varying degrees that

something was very wrong with them in the days/weeks/months after having their

babies while the mentally ill women uniformly took the post partum psychosis

literally even when it was causing them distress.The other thing that struck me

is that the mentally healthy women all knew for a fact after their post partum

psychosis had subsided that the thoughts and ideas they had been having about

their babies were abnormal products of the psychosis they had been suffering

from.None of the mentally healthy women tried to justify having had any of those

thoughts or to " normalize " them: they fully understood that they had been

mentally ill at the time and across the board they thanked god that they hadn't

harmed their babies.

>

> The mentally ill mothers,on the other hand,had to have this explained

to them *even once they were no longer experiencing post partum psychosis*.

>

> All of these women had had symptoms quite similar to

nada's.So,although my nada no longer actively believed when I was twenty two

that I was " putting thoughts " into her head--nor had she continued to believe

this after the post partum psychosis itself had abated--she continued to believe

that all of it had actually happened.

>

> I'm talking about a high functioning person who had a career,was a well

respected " pillar of the community " ; who from all outward public appearances was

as sane as anybody else--and who was walking around thinking that a newborn had

ordered her to go and crash her car.

>

> She had had twenty two years to figure out that it would be

impossible for a newborn who can't even talk to formulate coherent thought

" sentences " and/or to figure out that since a newborn cannot possibly have any

conception of what a car is or does (let alone know that people drive them and

can crash them),that there is no way *I* could have ordered her go kill herself

with the family car.

>

> But none of that had occurred to her.Even though she could function

so well out in the " world " that she was widely admired and respected,her inner

thoughts about me were based on delusions that a mentally healthy person would

know were false.

>

> Yet she was canny enough to know that she would be seen as insane if

she told anyone what she really believed about me as a baby.So she only told

me, " the guilty party " in her mind.She was canny enough to pretend to everyone

else that I had merely been a high strung baby who had colic and recurrent ear

infections,portraying herself as an exhausted first time mother.I think this is

what she did even while she was actually in the grip of post partum psychosis.

>

> In the stories I read by mentally healthy mothers who had post partum

psychosis they all asked themselves while it was happening: What is wrong with

*me*? And it was when they caught themselves verging into blaming their babies

and wanting to hurt them that they knew they needed help.None of them,of

course,blamed their babies afterward for " causing " their post partum psychosis.

>

> But my nada did,continued to blame me years after the fact.Continued

to hold me responsible.Continued to see *herself* as my innocent,hapless

victim.Continued to believe that she had " always " known there was something

" wrong " with *me*! And she had proof: even as a newborn I had been otherwordly

weird and had intentionally terrorized her.

>

> All of this while being able to function in her outward life and never

*getting* how bizarre her beliefs about me were.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Girlscout,

So your nada was a Special ed. teacher? My nada considered teaching

the " mentally retarded " in college--well,back in those days pretty much all

special ed was a blanket grouping of the " slow " and " retarded " .When your nada

started teaching,was there more of an awareness of the various learning

disabilities?

I got my info about nada's success mostly by seeing it for myself.At

the end of every school year she brought home dozens of gifts and thank you

cards given her by grateful parents and devoted students: " You're the best

teacher my Sally has ever had,words cannot express my thankfulness that she got

to have you for her teacher " ... " I love you so much! I wish I could stay in your

class forever! " Etc.

She was named " Teacher of the Year " several times.

With the storytelling I often accompanied her to her gigs and saw her

in action.She was very skilled at keeping her focus on both the story and the

audience at the same time.Many of her stories involved audience interaction,such

as simple songs she'd made up to punctuate the plot,so she'd get everyone going

in a little sing along that usually heightened either the drama or the silliness

of whatever story she was telling.One story she told--get this--was an African

folktale about a little girl who in retrospect sounds to me like a

Borderline.Ish.She finds a magical basket that does all of her gathering chores

for her and also procures treats for her like honey or peanut butter at her

demand.Instead of cherishing her magical basket,the little girl lays around

barking constant orders at it until the poor basket is so ragged it begs her for

mercy.She then laughs at it and tells it to go gather peanuts for her and grind

them into peanut butter.The basket pleads with her for a rest and the little

girl sneers, " Well,then,you must have lied to me.You aren't a magical basket at

all.You're just a clump of reeds.I'm going to toss you into the fire. "

The basket rushes off to gather peanuts,indignant about the insult and

the threat.But it is muttering to itself, " I must do something...I must...This

little girl is the most wicked child I have ever known... "

At that point in the story nada asked the audience to help the

basket--the poor basket was so tired,maybe the audience could at least grind the

peanuts for it.She brought along an old fashioned glass chopping gadget filled

just so with peanuts that had a secure screw on lid with a press down handle on

top that finely chopped the peanuts inside.At this point she got the audience

going in a sort of giggly " hot potato " game with each member taking turns

chopping the peanuts and passing the gadget quickly to their neighbor while in

the story the little girl is getting angrier and angrier that the basket hasn't

returned from its mission.She goes off to search for it,finds it,and berates it

at length.Nada made this part of the story much more silly sounding than scary

and broke off at points to ask the audience things like:

Is it nice of Afua (the little girl) to speak to her magic basket like

this after all it did for her?

Encouraging the audience to shout: No!

Then nada said: But the poor basket is still so tired,so it would be

nice of US to keep chopping those peanuts for it.Faster! Faster! While the

basket tries to figure out what to do!

Getting everyone back into the giggling " hot potato " game as she turned

back to the story.At that point,Afua decides to ratchet up her demand: she tells

the basket to forget about the peanut butter,what she *really* wants is

honey, " even if you must search miles and miles to find it " .

The basket suddenly has an idea.It drags itself off to go find Afua some

honey--but returns full of angry bees:

" Here you are,Afua,I've brought you the honey you really wanted " ,the

basket says in a simpering tone as it sets itself at her feet.

Afua is laying lazily on the ground,as usual.She snaps, " And when I've

finished with this,you WILL grind peanuts for me because you took so long

getting the honey,I remembered that I *really* want to eat peanut butter. "

The basket whispers, " Yes,Afua " and nada turned back to the audience to

say in a silly way, " Do we need to keep chopping peanuts? " encouraging the

chopping game to begin again.

But when Afua reaches a lazy hand into the basket to grab a fistful of

honey,a swarm of bees comes raging out of it right at her.She lurches up

screaming and takes off at a run,pursued by the swarm.

Nada ended the story with, " They say she's running still...and will

probably never stop to have her peanut butter. "

But the basket would like to thank the audience for being so kind and

helpful--nada then brought out a basket with a jar of peanut butter and a

package of crackers and everybody got to have a little snack while she told her

concluding story,a pleasant folktale about soda crackers that included a happy

sing along.

Now,we can all see how creepy that story was for a nada to tell,but she

did it so engagingly so entertainingly,I don't think people detected that " glint

of craziness " .Nada never missed a beat with her story telling and she was able

to be quite enjoyably spell binding with her inflections of voice and body

language but not in an obviously witchy way,even telling a story like that.It's

hard to describe with words--but she snowed people all the time,even when she

was actually rather gleefully playing a game *with her own issues*.Of course as

*I* listened to her tell stories like " Afua And The Basket " ,I wanted to throw

up.

I remember her speaking on the telephone to the publishing house while

she tried to put together a few sample chapters for that book.I was a

teenager--and even tried to help her by critiquing what she had written because

I knew those stories,had known some of those children because my private school

vacations were longer than her public school ones and I often " worked " on

vacation as her teacher's aide.The thought occurs to me that maybe she couldn't

maintain interest in the project because it was all about *other people's pain*

not so much about her--and because she was having to edit out alot of libelous

detail so the book would be more about what can a teacher do to assist students

in crisis in general,as in *any* teacher not nada in particular who did XYZ,so

rendering the particular into the abstract to the tune of an entire book was

simply beyond her capacity.She had managed to do that with her article for the

magazine by highlighting the brilliant idea she'd had to have all of her

students keep a journal.

She set aside a " journal entry " period every day for her students to

either write or draw *something* in their journals,even if it was only a

sentence or two or an illustration of their feelings.She was teaching third

grade at the time.Her students could take their journals home if they wanted

to,or wanted to write at more length in them,but as a general rule they kept

them at school in their cubbies.Nada didn't read their entries but only glanced

at the date to make sure they had completed the assignment as requested and put

a little star sticker next to the date to indicate this.She encouraged her

students to write about whatever they wanted or to use their journals as a safe

place to vent about anything that was bothering them.She told her students that

if for any reason at all they wanted her to read one of their entries,especially

if it was about something that was troubling them,that she most certainly would

be glad to but she promised to otherwise totally respect their privacy and never

ever to snoop in their journals.

A bit past mid year one school year a student asked her shyly if she

would read something she had written in her journal.She couldn't talk about

it,she said,but would nada just read what she wrote?

This student was being molested by her father and had been writing

successively more and more detailed entries about it in her journal.Basically

keeping a record of the abuse--which was later used as evidence for her removal

from that home when nada called CPS.

Another student used her journal as a " safe place " to record incidents

of domestic violence in her home--and felt so empowered by discovering that she

could not only find a way to " voice " those experiences but that in doing so she

wasn't punished for it but could actually read back over her past entries and

feel validated by her own words that she gathered the courage to tell nada what

was happening in her home.And nada helped her once she did.That one is a long

story but it had a good outcome.

The journal keeping worked because nada gave the students a private

means of expression and gave *them* the power of disclosure.She did lie a

bit,though: near the end of the school year she did snoop and checked over the

entries intending to report any writing about abuse to CPS if necessary.But she

never had to: time after time when one of her students really did have a

problem,they either told her outright or asked her to read what they had written

in their journals because she had gained their trust and/or they had learned by

keeping a journal that they could write down their innermost thoughts in a safe

place and not be punished or shamed for them,so they had the space and privacy

to mull it all over before opting to take up nada's offer to listen.

If one of my teachers had given me such a place to write an SOS,I would

have jumped on it.If one of my teachers had told me that they would be glad to

read my SOS *at my request* when *I* was ready,I would have jumped on it.

But that was my nada doing that for other children! And she totally

merited being voted " Teacher of the Year " for stuff like that! You see how she

appeared more caring or creative than crazy? Yet--*everything* she did was

fundamentally about nada being " the best " not really about *doing good*.As in,a

student in one of her colleague's classes *died* because that teacher wasn't

paying attention--now,that wouldn't happen on nada's beat because nada was

*better* than that; nada was on top of things; nada did it better.

She was driven to best everyone else,including me.But she knew never to

get out of her depth--and when it came down to it,she knew to abandon even the

glory of having her book published--she knew when to shift tactics for the sake

of her own self promotion so instead of doing the book she began to concentrate

more on submissions about how to help students who struggle in certain academic

areas.She had many ideas about this; it was one of her fortes.She was a master

at deflecting attention away from her weaknesses and drawing attention back onto

her strengths.She was very wiley in this way.

There's more but I've already written too much! I don't think anyone who

knew her professionally did suspect she was nuts.She had the charisma to pull it

off and to bring others over to her views even when they were a bit

unorthodox.She knew how to create a " cult of personality " for herself.

>

> - me too, nada was a school teacher. Special ed.

>

> I have to wonder - where did you get your info about nada's success? From

> her? Or from others? and were the others flying monkeys? Or credible?

>

> I just ask because to hear my nada tell it, NO ONE can compete with her

> success. But then you might hear from others, and they will drop hints that

> people could see glints of craziness.

[Guest guest]

Karla,I'm really glad to know my research was helpful to you.I'm on your

side,too,with the post partum depression.I believe that it's so vitally

important that there is some kind of assistance available to women who are

experiencing post partum mood issues after giving birth.Not just for women with

post partum psychosis who are at risk of killing either themselves or their

babies,but for any mother who is having difficulty coping.Did you know that

women with trauma histories,such as child abuse,are more likely to suffer from

hormonally induced serious depression after giving birth than women who don't

have such a history? I think this is something that obstetricians needs to be

more proactive about.There is still such a stigma attached to a mother admitting

to having a less than joyous after birth experience,when research has shown that

receiving non judgmental peer support like group therapy can go a long way

towards alleviating the burden of a mother's self blame if she is experiencing

post partum depression.

You're right that what nada was doing when she told me about this was

to,yet again,make me the bearer of her dirty little secret.You're right,she was

exploiting her illness against me--because if I was the only one who knew,who

could I tell and be believed?

Your son is fortunate indeed to have a mother who has the emotional

maturity,sanity and clarity to know that burdening him with the extent of how

depressed you were would benefit no one.That was also a theme I noticed in the

testimonies of mentally healthy mothers who had had post partum psychosis: they

weren't planning on divulging all the gory details later to their child once

they were grown because they didn't want them to suffer in any way from knowing

about it.They wanted to focus on the *healthy* bond they had developed with

their child.

I think my nada had some kind of pre-birth psychosis or something going

on because right after I was born she started to believe that I had been

switched with another baby and wasn't actually hers.She was even telling the

nurses that in all seriousness! One would hope that in this day and age that

would be some kind of red flag.Back then,in 1967 (I'm a bit older than 22,sorry

if that wasn't clear in my post),the nurses just chuckled and tut-tutted that I

was definitely her baby.Tell a BPD that they're *wrong*,right--she continued to

insist through out my childhood that I wasn't her " real " daughter.

Thank you so much for your kind and thoughtful--and totally *getting

it*--post.It IS earth shattering to realize that from the very beginning she

rejected me,that she never even gave me a chance.

How to provide post partum mental health care to *all* women who might

need it is a thorny issue.Our society assumes that a mother should simply be

happy when she has a baby and unfortunately when this isn't the case the mother

feels inadequate or flawed--post partum mood disorder awareness campaigns stress

the fact that it isn't the mother's fault; that she will not be blamed or judged

for seeking help.That approach works well with otherwise mentally sound mothers

who just happen to have been bombarded with mood altering hormones and who can

reach out and avail themselves of assistance for the sake of both themselves and

their baby--but in cases of longer standing biological dysfunctions like

BPD,that kind of approach backfires because the BPD mother will distort the

" it's not your fault " into " it's the baby's fault " .So what is helpful for

mentally healthy mothers and their babies can actually enable a BPD's delusions

and be (at times fatally) detrimental to their babies!

> >

> > When I was born my nada developed post partum psychosis.She was never

treated for it (as far as I know/she said) and it resolved itself when I was

about ten months old.From what I have read about post partum psychosis that can

and does happen although obviously it's much better for all concerned if the

mother is actually treated.

> >

> > I didn't even know about it until I was twenty two years old and nada

started telling me some bizarre stuff during a conversation we were having,more

like a sort of confession.She was sure I would understand what she was talking

about,she said--and she had never told anyone else about what had happened when

I was a baby.

> >

> > She told me that as a *newborn* I had purposefully put thoughts into

her head,such as ordering her to get into the car and drive it into something

" going fast " .I had also had the ability to make myself disappear within days of

arriving home from the hospital and that by the time I was six months old had

fine honed this skill into being able to turn myself into a series of floating

dots that would appear and dissolve: somtimes my whole body,sometimes just my

face.Or I could immerse us both in an otherwordly glowing light while she was

nursing me--something I did at times to reassure her and at other times to

torment her.

> >

> > Among other clearly impossible feats. " I always knew you weren't like

anybody else " ,she said that day--while I was thinking: Ok,I always knew you were

insane and here's real proof...

> >

> > I went to the library that evening and looked up her

symptoms.Unfortunately I didn't happen across BPD but did find information about

post partum psychosis.What I couldn't figure out was why she continued to be

delusional,although not to that extreme degree,afterward.

> >

> > Since then I have read stories and testimonies from women who had

post partum psychosis.An interesting distinction between women who had been

mentally healthy prior to having post partum psychosis and women who had been

mentally ill prior and/or were psychotic in addition to the post partum

psychosis is that the mentally healthy women were able to recognize to varying

degrees that something was very wrong with them in the days/weeks/months after

having their babies while the mentally ill women uniformly took the post partum

psychosis literally even when it was causing them distress.The other thing that

struck me is that the mentally healthy women all knew for a fact after their

post partum psychosis had subsided that the thoughts and ideas they had been

having about their babies were abnormal products of the psychosis they had been

suffering from.None of the mentally healthy women tried to justify having had

any of those thoughts or to " normalize " them: they fully understood that they

had been mentally ill at the time and across the board they thanked god that

they hadn't harmed their babies.

> >

> > The mentally ill mothers,on the other hand,had to have this

explained to them *even once they were no longer experiencing post partum

psychosis*.

> >

> > All of these women had had symptoms quite similar to

nada's.So,although my nada no longer actively believed when I was twenty two

that I was " putting thoughts " into her head--nor had she continued to believe

this after the post partum psychosis itself had abated--she continued to believe

that all of it had actually happened.

> >

> > I'm talking about a high functioning person who had a career,was a

well respected " pillar of the community " ; who from all outward public

appearances was as sane as anybody else--and who was walking around thinking

that a newborn had ordered her to go and crash her car.

> >

> > She had had twenty two years to figure out that it would be

impossible for a newborn who can't even talk to formulate coherent thought

" sentences " and/or to figure out that since a newborn cannot possibly have any

conception of what a car is or does (let alone know that people drive them and

can crash them),that there is no way *I* could have ordered her go kill herself

with the family car.

> >

> > But none of that had occurred to her.Even though she could function

so well out in the " world " that she was widely admired and respected,her inner

thoughts about me were based on delusions that a mentally healthy person would

know were false.

> >

> > Yet she was canny enough to know that she would be seen as insane if

she told anyone what she really believed about me as a baby.So she only told

me, " the guilty party " in her mind.She was canny enough to pretend to everyone

else that I had merely been a high strung baby who had colic and recurrent ear

infections,portraying herself as an exhausted first time mother.I think this is

what she did even while she was actually in the grip of post partum psychosis.

> >

> > In the stories I read by mentally healthy mothers who had post partum

psychosis they all asked themselves while it was happening: What is wrong with

*me*? And it was when they caught themselves verging into blaming their babies

and wanting to hurt them that they knew they needed help.None of them,of

course,blamed their babies afterward for " causing " their post partum psychosis.

> >

> > But my nada did,continued to blame me years after the fact.Continued

to hold me responsible.Continued to see *herself* as my innocent,hapless

victim.Continued to believe that she had " always " known there was something

" wrong " with *me*! And she had proof: even as a newborn I had been otherwordly

weird and had intentionally terrorized her.

> >

> > All of this while being able to function in her outward life and

never *getting* how bizarre her beliefs about me were.

> >

> >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Wow.

Your nada's behaviors remind me of famous psychopaths Ted Bundy

and Wayne Gacy Jr who were intelligent, ambitious, civic-minded, and

absolutely charming and charismatic when it suited them. They each had the

ability to carry off a completely double life, appearing to be concerned,

responsible adult citizens by day,... AND serial killers at night.

Psychiatrist Herve Cleckley refers to the psychopath's ability to pull off a

double life as the " mask of sanity. "

Female serial killers are rare, but they do exist. They tend to be emotionally

close to their victims and kill their spouses, children, or the elderly, and use

covert or low-profile means to do so, like poisoning. While most female serial

killers murder for material profit, some do it to gain attention; many are

diagnosed with Munchausen Syndrome (but this article I'm quoting from had no

info on Munchausen's-by-proxy, committed by a parent against her child.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serial_killer

Other posts you've shared with us, , about the repeated instances where

your mother put you in dangerous situations and even tried to orchestrate your

death (indirectly, via the insane older child who did kill another child) makes

me believe your mother was/is a genuine psychopath.

You are truly lucky to be alive at all.

-Annie

> >

> > - me too, nada was a school teacher. Special ed.

> >

> > I have to wonder - where did you get your info about nada's success? From

> > her? Or from others? and were the others flying monkeys? Or credible?

> >

> > I just ask because to hear my nada tell it, NO ONE can compete with her

> > success. But then you might hear from others, and they will drop hints that

> > people could see glints of craziness.

>

[Guest guest]

" Your nada's behaviors remind me of famous psychopaths Ted Bundy

and Wayne Gacy Jr who were intelligent, ambitious, civic-minded, and

absolutely charming and charismatic when it suited them. They each had the

ability to carry off a completely double life, appearing to be concerned,

responsible adult citizens by day,... AND serial killers at night. "

This is EXACTLY why the public doesn't " get " mental illness! The above is true

of so, so many mentally ill, and just plain abusive people as well. But no one

understands this, so when someone dealing at close quarters with such a mentally

ill person asks for help, the folks on the periphery believe what THEY see and

not what the one living with the mentally ill person is experiencing.

If we could only get just that one fact into general circulation, imagine how

much better life would be for KO's of every age.

--LL.

[Guest guest]

" I believe personally that what is required here is a massive child

abuse awareness propaganda campaign.Yes,I said propaganda.I'm fascinated with

propaganda campaigns that failed--such as feminism--and why they failed...and

with ones that worked,Israel being perceived as a sympathetic nation state being

the best example in my opinion.There is ALOT to learn from cases of both success

and failure.An isolated authority such as the APA making best practices

recommendations isn't going to turn the tide,but hearts and minds can be won and

brought over with a carefully orchestrated campaign.Sorry to sound so cynical

but simply appealing to reason with the public mind seems never to work.And

changing minds is not something that can be done over night.

We need a child abuse lobby in Washington that has TEETH. "

Uh, no. We need a child abuse lobby in Washington that has MONEY.

In this nation, nothing gets done unless it makes an unthinkably rich and

powerful person even more rich and even more powerful. Children, of course, are

poor and weak, and the people trying to help them aren't rich, either, so, no,

not a chance they'll ever be heard in Washington. Protecting kids from abuse

can't be transformed into a multi-billion dollar industry like, say, cigarettes,

fashion, or fast food. If it could, it makes my head swim to think how fast

things would change!!

What's needed is a book and/or a hit movie.

Well...it would help, at least...

--LL.

[Guest guest]

I kinda wonder what happens when a BP gets mixed up with something like post

partum depression/psycosis.  Sounds like a typical refusal to deal with

problems as usual instead of saying I have a problem I need help let's go get

some, it's a sympathy show, what is she trtying to do scare you out of having

kids????

proflaf

Subject: Re: Nada's enduring insistence on delusion

To: WTOAdultChildren1

Date: Friday, October 15, 2010, 5:59 PM

 

Wow , echoing others here that it is a miracle you are alive.

What reaction did you show when she told you these things? Did she understand

it was psychosis by the time you were 22 or was she still believing those things

happened? Reading your post about how she was a school teacher it almost makes

me wonder if she has true alternate personalities. I don't know if that's even

possible - for a person to contain a saintly teacher personality and a crazy

abusive mother personality. Anyway, I'm glad you made it out of there to have a

good life.

>

> When I was born my nada developed post partum psychosis.She was never treated

for it (as far as I know/she said) and it resolved itself when I was about ten

months old.From what I have read about post partum psychosis that can and does

happen although obviously it's much better for all concerned if the mother is

actually treated.

>

> I didn't even know about it until I was twenty two years old and nada

started telling me some bizarre stuff during a conversation we were having,more

like a sort of confession.She was sure I would understand what she was talking

about,she said--and she had never told anyone else about what had happened when

I was a baby.

>

> She told me that as a *newborn* I had purposefully put thoughts into her

head,such as ordering her to get into the car and drive it into something " going

fast " .I had also had the ability to make myself disappear within days of

arriving home from the hospital and that by the time I was six months old had

fine honed this skill into being able to turn myself into a series of floating

dots that would appear and dissolve: somtimes my whole body,sometimes just my

face.Or I could immerse us both in an otherwordly glowing light while she was

nursing me--something I did at times to reassure her and at other times to

torment her.

>

> Among other clearly impossible feats. " I always knew you weren't like

anybody else " ,she said that day--while I was thinking: Ok,I always knew you were

insane and here's real proof...

>

> I went to the library that evening and looked up her

symptoms.Unfortunately I didn't happen across BPD but did find information about

post partum psychosis.What I couldn't figure out was why she continued to be

delusional,although not to that extreme degree,afterward.

>

> Since then I have read stories and testimonies from women who had post

partum psychosis.An interesting distinction between women who had been mentally

healthy prior to having post partum psychosis and women who had been mentally

ill prior and/or were psychotic in addition to the post partum psychosis is that

the mentally healthy women were able to recognize to varying degrees that

something was very wrong with them in the days/weeks/months after having their

babies while the mentally ill women uniformly took the post partum psychosis

literally even when it was causing them distress.The other thing that struck me

is that the mentally healthy women all knew for a fact after their post partum

psychosis had subsided that the thoughts and ideas they had been having about

their babies were abnormal products of the psychosis they had been suffering

from.None of the mentally healthy women tried to justify having had any of those

thoughts or to

" normalize " them: they fully understood that they had been mentally ill at the

time and across the board they thanked god that they hadn't harmed their babies.

>

> The mentally ill mothers,on the other hand,had to have this explained

to them *even once they were no longer experiencing post partum psychosis*.

>

> All of these women had had symptoms quite similar to

nada's.So,although my nada no longer actively believed when I was twenty two

that I was " putting thoughts " into her head--nor had she continued to believe

this after the post partum psychosis itself had abated--she continued to believe

that all of it had actually happened.

>

> I'm talking about a high functioning person who had a career,was a well

respected " pillar of the community " ; who from all outward public appearances was

as sane as anybody else--and who was walking around thinking that a newborn had

ordered her to go and crash her car.

>

> She had had twenty two years to figure out that it would be

impossible for a newborn who can't even talk to formulate coherent thought

" sentences " and/or to figure out that since a newborn cannot possibly have any

conception of what a car is or does (let alone know that people drive them and

can crash them),that there is no way *I* could have ordered her go kill herself

with the family car.

>

> But none of that had occurred to her.Even though she could function

so well out in the " world " that she was widely admired and respected,her inner

thoughts about me were based on delusions that a mentally healthy person would

know were false.

>

> Yet she was canny enough to know that she would be seen as insane if

she told anyone what she really believed about me as a baby.So she only told

me, " the guilty party " in her mind.She was canny enough to pretend to everyone

else that I had merely been a high strung baby who had colic and recurrent ear

infections,portraying herself as an exhausted first time mother.I think this is

what she did even while she was actually in the grip of post partum psychosis.

>

> In the stories I read by mentally healthy mothers who had post partum

psychosis they all asked themselves while it was happening: What is wrong with

*me*? And it was when they caught themselves verging into blaming their babies

and wanting to hurt them that they knew they needed help.None of them,of

course,blamed their babies afterward for " causing " their post partum psychosis.

>

> But my nada did,continued to blame me years after the fact.Continued

to hold me responsible.Continued to see *herself* as my innocent,hapless

victim.Continued to believe that she had " always " known there was something

" wrong " with *me*! And she had proof: even as a newborn I had been otherwordly

weird and had intentionally terrorized her.

>

> All of this while being able to function in her outward life and never

*getting* how bizarre her beliefs about me were.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Yes, I think you're right, and nailed the details as to why:

Premise:

A woman who has a personality disorder or some other mental illness to begin

with *before* she becomes pregnant, is much less likely to be able to handle the

mood-affecting hormone fluctuations of pregnancy, or be able to recognize and

understand that she is experiencing serious altered emotional states like

post-partum depression or post-partum psychosis.

Why this happens:

One reason why personality disorder is currently designated in the DSM-IV as an

Axis II or " untreatable " condition is that personality disorder is " ego

syntonic. " This means that someone with personality disorder believes that

their own perceptions, beliefs, thoughts and feelings are valid, appropriate and

normal. They believe that there is nothing wrong with them at all, and all

their problems are coming from outside themselves. Its other people who are the

problem, never their own self.

A person with borderline personality disorder can have " transient,

stress-related paranoid ideation, delusions or severe dissociative symptoms "

(symptom 9) anyway. But because personality is ego-syntonic, delusions and

paranoid thoughts (breaks with reality) *seem " normal " to the person with bpd.*

That explains why, years after the fact, 's nada still persisted in her

delusional beliefs that (a) newborn was not her real daughter, that

her own baby had been swapped for , and ( infant had

supernatural powers and hostile intentions toward nada.

's nada has never accepted that these beliefs might be due to

psychosis, she persists in believing these are true facts because she has and

had severe personality disorder to begin with.

It could be due to denial, or to simply believing that in spite of all rational

logical evidence to the contrary, her perceptions were accurate and not

hallucinations at all.

I buy this theory completely; it makes sense to me.

-Annie

>

> >

>

> > When I was born my nada developed post partum psychosis.She was never

treated for it (as far as I know/she said) and it resolved itself when I was

about ten months old.From what I have read about post partum psychosis that can

and does happen although obviously it's much better for all concerned if the

mother is actually treated.

>

> >

>

> > I didn't even know about it until I was twenty two years old and nada

started telling me some bizarre stuff during a conversation we were having,more

like a sort of confession.She was sure I would understand what she was talking

about,she said--and she had never told anyone else about what had happened when

I was a baby.

>

> >

>

> > She told me that as a *newborn* I had purposefully put thoughts into

her head,such as ordering her to get into the car and drive it into something

" going fast " .I had also had the ability to make myself disappear within days of

arriving home from the hospital and that by the time I was six months old had

fine honed this skill into being able to turn myself into a series of floating

dots that would appear and dissolve: somtimes my whole body,sometimes just my

face.Or I could immerse us both in an otherwordly glowing light while she was

nursing me--something I did at times to reassure her and at other times to

torment her.

>

> >

>

> > Among other clearly impossible feats. " I always knew you weren't like

anybody else " ,she said that day--while I was thinking: Ok,I always knew you were

insane and here's real proof...

>

> >

>

> > I went to the library that evening and looked up her

symptoms.Unfortunately I didn't happen across BPD but did find information about

post partum psychosis.What I couldn't figure out was why she continued to be

delusional,although not to that extreme degree,afterward.

>

> >

>

> > Since then I have read stories and testimonies from women who had

post partum psychosis.An interesting distinction between women who had been

mentally healthy prior to having post partum psychosis and women who had been

mentally ill prior and/or were psychotic in addition to the post partum

psychosis is that the mentally healthy women were able to recognize to varying

degrees that something was very wrong with them in the days/weeks/months after

having their babies while the mentally ill women uniformly took the post partum

psychosis literally even when it was causing them distress.The other thing that

struck me is that the mentally healthy women all knew for a fact after their

post partum psychosis had subsided that the thoughts and ideas they had been

having about their babies were abnormal products of the psychosis they had been

suffering from.None of the mentally healthy women tried to justify having had

any of those thoughts or to

> " normalize " them: they fully understood that they had been mentally ill at

the time and across the board they thanked god that they hadn't harmed their

babies.

>

> >

>

> > The mentally ill mothers,on the other hand,had to have this

explained to them *even once they were no longer experiencing post partum

psychosis*.

>

> >

>

> > All of these women had had symptoms quite similar to

nada's.So,although my nada no longer actively believed when I was twenty two

that I was " putting thoughts " into her head--nor had she continued to believe

this after the post partum psychosis itself had abated--she continued to believe

that all of it had actually happened.

>

> >

>

> > I'm talking about a high functioning person who had a career,was a

well respected " pillar of the community " ; who from all outward public

appearances was as sane as anybody else--and who was walking around thinking

that a newborn had ordered her to go and crash her car.

>

> >

>

> > She had had twenty two years to figure out that it would be

impossible for a newborn who can't even talk to formulate coherent thought

" sentences " and/or to figure out that since a newborn cannot possibly have any

conception of what a car is or does (let alone know that people drive them and

can crash them),that there is no way *I* could have ordered her go kill herself

with the family car.

>

> >

>

> > But none of that had occurred to her.Even though she could function

so well out in the " world " that she was widely admired and respected,her inner

thoughts about me were based on delusions that a mentally healthy person would

know were false.

>

> >

>

> > Yet she was canny enough to know that she would be seen as insane if

she told anyone what she really believed about me as a baby.So she only told

me, " the guilty party " in her mind.She was canny enough to pretend to everyone

else that I had merely been a high strung baby who had colic and recurrent ear

infections,portraying herself as an exhausted first time mother.I think this is

what she did even while she was actually in the grip of post partum psychosis.

>

> >

>

> > In the stories I read by mentally healthy mothers who had post partum

psychosis they all asked themselves while it was happening: What is wrong with

*me*? And it was when they caught themselves verging into blaming their babies

and wanting to hurt them that they knew they needed help.None of them,of

course,blamed their babies afterward for " causing " their post partum psychosis.

>

> >

>

> > But my nada did,continued to blame me years after the fact.Continued

to hold me responsible.Continued to see *herself* as my innocent,hapless

victim.Continued to believe that she had " always " known there was something

" wrong " with *me*! And she had proof: even as a newborn I had been otherwordly

weird and had intentionally terrorized her.

>

> >

>

> > All of this while being able to function in her outward life and

never *getting* how bizarre her beliefs about me were.

>

> >

>

> >

>

> >

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hey ,

Lets see - my nada would have started teaching when I went to 7th grade.

Late 80s. She started out as an English teacher, she went to college for

English from the time I was in Kindergarten til 7th grade. You would think

she would have a PhD by then, but no. She hated 7th graders and told me

about it constantly (I'm like, look, I'm a 7th grader, do you hate me,

too?). and She tortured me with that. Then she went back and got certified

in special ed.

I feel bad for her students.

On Sat, Oct 16, 2010 at 6:20 PM, anuria67854 wrote:

>

>

> Yes, I think you're right, and nailed the details as to why:

>

> Premise:

> A woman who has a personality disorder or some other mental illness to

> begin with *before* she becomes pregnant, is much less likely to be able to

> handle the mood-affecting hormone fluctuations of pregnancy, or be able to

> recognize and understand that she is experiencing serious altered emotional

> states like post-partum depression or post-partum psychosis.

>

> Why this happens:

> One reason why personality disorder is currently designated in the DSM-IV

> as an Axis II or " untreatable " condition is that personality disorder is

> " ego syntonic. " This means that someone with personality disorder believes

> that their own perceptions, beliefs, thoughts and feelings are valid,

> appropriate and normal. They believe that there is nothing wrong with them

> at all, and all their problems are coming from outside themselves. Its other

> people who are the problem, never their own self.

>

> A person with borderline personality disorder can have " transient,

> stress-related paranoid ideation, delusions or severe dissociative symptoms "

> (symptom 9) anyway. But because personality is ego-syntonic, delusions and

> paranoid thoughts (breaks with reality) *seem " normal " to the person with

> bpd.* That explains why, years after the fact, 's nada still

> persisted in her delusional beliefs that (a) newborn was not her

> real daughter, that her own baby had been swapped for , and (

> infant had supernatural powers and hostile intentions toward nada.

>

>

> 's nada has never accepted that these beliefs might be due to

> psychosis, she persists in believing these are true facts because she has

> and had severe personality disorder to begin with.

>

> It could be due to denial, or to simply believing that in spite of all

> rational logical evidence to the contrary, her perceptions were accurate and

> not hallucinations at all.

>

> I buy this theory completely; it makes sense to me.

>

> -Annie

>

>

> >

> > >

> >

> > > When I was born my nada developed post partum psychosis.She was never

> treated for it (as far as I know/she said) and it resolved itself when I was

> about ten months old.From what I have read about post partum psychosis that

> can and does happen although obviously it's much better for all concerned if

> the mother is actually treated.

> >

> > >

> >

> > > I didn't even know about it until I was twenty two years old and nada

> started telling me some bizarre stuff during a conversation we were

> having,more like a sort of confession.She was sure I would understand what

> she was talking about,she said--and she had never told anyone else about

> what had happened when I was a baby.

> >

> > >

> >

> > > She told me that as a *newborn* I had purposefully put thoughts into

> her head,such as ordering her to get into the car and drive it into

> something " going fast " .I had also had the ability to make myself disappear

> within days of arriving home from the hospital and that by the time I was

> six months old had fine honed this skill into being able to turn myself into

> a series of floating dots that would appear and dissolve: somtimes my whole

> body,sometimes just my face.Or I could immerse us both in an otherwordly

> glowing light while she was nursing me--something I did at times to reassure

> her and at other times to torment her.

> >

> > >

> >

> > > Among other clearly impossible feats. " I always knew you weren't like

> anybody else " ,she said that day--while I was thinking: Ok,I always knew you

> were insane and here's real proof...

> >

> > >

> >

> > > I went to the library that evening and looked up her

> symptoms.Unfortunately I didn't happen across BPD but did find information

> about post partum psychosis.What I couldn't figure out was why she continued

> to be delusional,although not to that extreme degree,afterward.

> >

> > >

> >

> > > Since then I have read stories and testimonies from women who had post

> partum psychosis.An interesting distinction between women who had been

> mentally healthy prior to having post partum psychosis and women who had

> been mentally ill prior and/or were psychotic in addition to the post partum

> psychosis is that the mentally healthy women were able to recognize to

> varying degrees that something was very wrong with them in the

> days/weeks/months after having their babies while the mentally ill women

> uniformly took the post partum psychosis literally even when it was causing

> them distress.The other thing that struck me is that the mentally healthy

> women all knew for a fact after their post partum psychosis had subsided

> that the thoughts and ideas they had been having about their babies were

> abnormal products of the psychosis they had been suffering from.None of the

> mentally healthy women tried to justify having had any of those thoughts or

> to

> > " normalize " them: they fully understood that they had been mentally ill

> at the time and across the board they thanked god that they hadn't harmed

> their babies.

> >

> > >

> >

> > > The mentally ill mothers,on the other hand,had to have this explained

> to them *even once they were no longer experiencing post partum psychosis*.

> >

> > >

> >

> > > All of these women had had symptoms quite similar to nada's.So,although

> my nada no longer actively believed when I was twenty two that I was

> " putting thoughts " into her head--nor had she continued to believe this

> after the post partum psychosis itself had abated--she continued to believe

> that all of it had actually happened.

> >

> > >

> >

> > > I'm talking about a high functioning person who had a career,was a well

> respected " pillar of the community " ; who from all outward public appearances

> was as sane as anybody else--and who was walking around thinking that a

> newborn had ordered her to go and crash her car.

> >

> > >

> >

> > > She had had twenty two years to figure out that it would be impossible

> for a newborn who can't even talk to formulate coherent thought " sentences "

> and/or to figure out that since a newborn cannot possibly have any

> conception of what a car is or does (let alone know that people drive them

> and can crash them),that there is no way *I* could have ordered her go kill

> herself with the family car.

> >

> > >

> >

> > > But none of that had occurred to her.Even though she could function so

> well out in the " world " that she was widely admired and respected,her inner

> thoughts about me were based on delusions that a mentally healthy person

> would know were false.

> >

> > >

> >

> > > Yet she was canny enough to know that she would be seen as insane if

> she told anyone what she really believed about me as a baby.So she only told

> me, " the guilty party " in her mind.She was canny enough to pretend to

> everyone else that I had merely been a high strung baby who had colic and

> recurrent ear infections,portraying herself as an exhausted first time

> mother.I think this is what she did even while she was actually in the grip

> of post partum psychosis.

> >

> > >

> >

> > > In the stories I read by mentally healthy mothers who had post partum

> psychosis they all asked themselves while it was happening: What is wrong

> with *me*? And it was when they caught themselves verging into blaming their

> babies and wanting to hurt them that they knew they needed help.None of

> them,of course,blamed their babies afterward for " causing " their post partum

> psychosis.

> >

> > >

> >

> > > But my nada did,continued to blame me years after the fact.Continued to

> hold me responsible.Continued to see *herself* as my innocent,hapless

> victim.Continued to believe that she had " always " known there was something

> " wrong " with *me*! And she had proof: even as a newborn I had been

> otherwordly weird and had intentionally terrorized her.

> >

> > >

> >

> > > All of this while being able to function in her outward life and never

> *getting* how bizarre her beliefs about me were.

> >

> > >

> >

> > >

> >

> > >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Thank you,

I remember reading somewhere (but not where and I don't have a link)

that A.A. Milne,the author of the " Winnie the Pooh " books, was a

narcissistically self absorbed,emotionally absent father to his son--who

suffered from chronic depression all of his life while his father's books

brought joy to so many children.

It's next to impossible for me to separate my mother from her

illness.She did some fun and cool things at home,such as the open house party

she threw every year around Halloween when we were a bit older for the kids in

the neighborhood.She was on the local library board and brought home the

library's movie projector and black and white classic horror movie reels,like

Dracula and enstein,and transformed our dining room into a mini movie

theatre.She gave each guest a paper bag of popcorn and a bottle of pop--but the

fun when never just for us as a family to enjoy together as a family.It was

always the nada show: brought to " the masses " by nada,all credits reserved to

nada...

Thank you for your understanding.I appreciate it very much

>

> - So, if you'd been a total stranger assigned to her class, she'd

have been a wonderful person to know! But she wasn't able to bring all those

considerable talents to bear when raising her own child. Jeez, louise...I'm so

sorry. Not only did you have to put up with her craziness, but you were

deprived of somebody who could have been a world-class mom.

>

>

[Guest guest]

Girlscout,are you saying that your nada taught 7th graders and constantly said

she hated them??? Or was she saying,as a teacher who started teaching when *you*

happened to be in 7th grade,that she hated 7th graders as if the very thought of

teaching them was anathema to her?

Either way,there's a BPD for you: she took all that time getting her

degree and then once she had it,what did she do? Gripe! And in a way that was

personally insulting/personally negative to her own kid--like instead of being

happy to share the positive side of her " hard won " achievement with her daughter

and offer herself therefore as a role model,she wanted you to somehow feel badly

about it or to drag you down into *her* negativity.Our nadas inflict so much

sick resentment on us!!!

>

> Hey ,

> Lets see - my nada would have started teaching when I went to 7th grade.

> Late 80s. She started out as an English teacher, she went to college for

> English from the time I was in Kindergarten til 7th grade. You would think

> she would have a PhD by then, but no. She hated 7th graders and told me

> about it constantly (I'm like, look, I'm a 7th grader, do you hate me,

> too?). and She tortured me with that. Then she went back and got certified

> in special ed.

>

> I feel bad for her students.

[Guest guest]

Yeah,Annie,I know ....I've read about Ted Bundy but not Wayne Gacy.I

recall that at one point Ted Bundy volunteered for a suicide prevention

hotline,which to me seems like something a psychopath would find rather

fulfilling: to have power over desperate,vulnerable people.I think it was when

he was trying to launch his career as a politician that he began to really

psychologically decompose in earnest and to compulsively seek out victims to

viciously murder.

My nada had me as a constantly handy object to threaten,abuse and tear

down--I do believe if she hadn't had me readily available for this purpose that

she would have been more low functioning.I left this out for the sake of brevity

but she did gradually become quite low functioning in direct measure to my own

independent success--while I was living abroad for many years she began to

degenerate more and more into helpless Waif behavior--gradually--but ended up

first resigning from all her functions at the magazine and then later taking

early retirement from her school teaching.By that time she had forced fada into

a role of being her total slave--he ended up also taking early retirement to

take care of her because he had enabled her Waif routine so much that she had

become insatiable and out of control.This is when I relocated back to the States

and got sucked into their orbit of extreme dysfunction.

My brother is currently nada's slave since fada is dead.

I remember seeing ,who drowned her two little boys by

sending her car into a lake with them helplessly strapped into their car seats,

on tv at a news press conference right after she had reported them

" missing " .With her vicious lie that a " Black " man had carjacked her and taken

off with her babies.The news angle in Europe for that story was along the lines

of: See what happens when a country has no gun control/the United States is

shockingly crime ridden/any lunatic there with a gun can just attack an innocent

mother and her children...while I noticed 's crocodile tears--because

she looked and sounded *just like nada*: I thought,oh my god,*she* is the one

who killed those children...To me,she was displaying a bizarre flatness of

affect that was so much like nada--while getting away,at least for the

moment,with having people think that the poor woman was just so traumatized that

she was in shock.

In " Understanding The Borderline Mother " there is mention in the Witch

chapter of how 's husband finally realized how profoundly disturbed she

was: complained to him after her trial and convinction for the murders of

her children that " nobody gives a damn about me " .He saw then that she

totally,totally didn't get it.

My nada wanted the world,our small world,to give " a damn " about her and

I believe assumed that if I did die that she'd be the martyred mother everyone

felt sorry for.In her mind,I was competition--potentially or actually--and if I

was eliminated in such a way that she could also appear to the world to be a

victim of the crime,she would have perpetual martyred glory.

Well,I think you've said just that yourself in other responses to my

posts...I have survivor guilt knowing that I survived the attack from K. when I

was nine while my dear friend Ellen did not survive an encounter with K. when

she was five.So even being lucky to be alive at all makes me feel guilty.I don't

feel " worthy " of my survival,never feel that I have done " enough " with it.I know

rationally that this is a head trip I am putting myself through,at this point

all by myself,but my emotions have yet to catch up.

When I was living in London I started to write a novel to try to

exorcise these demons,about the drowning death of a five year old girl circa

1972 and how the entire small she lived in town bears collective responsibility

for her death in various little ways that add up to an accumulated indifference

that leads to the tragedy--of which the characters remain self righteously

oblivious.I've decided to try to complete this novel as a healing exercise,not

neccesarily with a view towards publication.Perhaps as I do so I will gain some

clarity--maybe my own creativity could cleanse me? I don't feel ready yet to

write articles or engage in activism--it's frustrating because I want to,but I

know that I am not ready.I have the ideas but not the sheer presence of being

yet to meaningfully promote them.

It's really hard to live with knowing that my own mother wanted me

dead.I'm at more of a place of acceptance with that than I was say,this time

last year,but I'm not yet where I want to be with it.

>

> Wow.

>

> Your nada's behaviors remind me of famous psychopaths Ted Bundy

> and Wayne Gacy Jr who were intelligent, ambitious, civic-minded, and

absolutely charming and charismatic when it suited them. They each had the

ability to carry off a completely double life, appearing to be concerned,

responsible adult citizens by day,... AND serial killers at night.

>

> Psychiatrist Herve Cleckley refers to the psychopath's ability to pull off a

double life as the " mask of sanity. "

>

> Female serial killers are rare, but they do exist. They tend to be

emotionally close to their victims and kill their spouses, children, or the

elderly, and use covert or low-profile means to do so, like poisoning. While

most female serial killers murder for material profit, some do it to gain

attention; many are diagnosed with Munchausen Syndrome (but this article I'm

quoting from had no info on Munchausen's-by-proxy, committed by a parent against

her child.)

>

> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serial_killer

>

> Other posts you've shared with us, , about the repeated instances

where your mother put you in dangerous situations and even tried to orchestrate

your death (indirectly, via the insane older child who did kill another child)

makes me believe your mother was/is a genuine psychopath.

>

> You are truly lucky to be alive at all.

>

> -Annie

[Guest guest]

Props to Annie This is an *excellent* synopsis/explanation!

The " ego syntonic " aspect is SO essential to understanding why BPD's lack

true awareness of their dysfunction and how this leads to abuse of their own

children and denial of accountability-or how a BPD who had post partum psychosis

will fail to ever apprehend that what she experienced were *delusions*.

>

> Yes, I think you're right, and nailed the details as to why:

>

> Premise:

> A woman who has a personality disorder or some other mental illness to begin

with *before* she becomes pregnant, is much less likely to be able to handle the

mood-affecting hormone fluctuations of pregnancy, or be able to recognize and

understand that she is experiencing serious altered emotional states like

post-partum depression or post-partum psychosis.

>

> Why this happens:

> One reason why personality disorder is currently designated in the DSM-IV as

an Axis II or " untreatable " condition is that personality disorder is " ego

syntonic. " This means that someone with personality disorder believes that

their own perceptions, beliefs, thoughts and feelings are valid, appropriate and

normal. They believe that there is nothing wrong with them at all, and all

their problems are coming from outside themselves. Its other people who are the

problem, never their own self.

>

> A person with borderline personality disorder can have " transient,

stress-related paranoid ideation, delusions or severe dissociative symptoms "

(symptom 9) anyway. But because personality is ego-syntonic, delusions and

paranoid thoughts (breaks with reality) *seem " normal " to the person with bpd.*

That explains why, years after the fact, 's nada still persisted in her

delusional beliefs that (a) newborn was not her real daughter, that

her own baby had been swapped for , and ( infant had

supernatural powers and hostile intentions toward nada.

>

> 's nada has never accepted that these beliefs might be due to

psychosis, she persists in believing these are true facts because she has and

had severe personality disorder to begin with.

>

> It could be due to denial, or to simply believing that in spite of all

rational logical evidence to the contrary, her perceptions were accurate and not

hallucinations at all.

>

> I buy this theory completely; it makes sense to me.

>

> -Annie

[Guest guest]

, The year I entered 7th grade she accepted a job as a 7th grade

English teacher. She hated it and hated all 7th graders and told me to the

point that I would sob how much she hated 7th graders. Then she quit the job

just in time for me not to be a 7th grader anymore. When I would ask me if

she hated me because I was in 7th grade she would say something like, " well,

I'm sure you would be one of the good ones. "

What a B-I-T-C-H!!!! That's what I think!

I would love to read your novel, you are a wonderful writer.

On Sun, Oct 17, 2010 at 11:39 AM, christine.depizan <

christine.depizan@...> wrote:

>

>

> Props to Annie This is an *excellent* synopsis/explanation!

>

> The " ego syntonic " aspect is SO essential to understanding why BPD's lack

> true awareness of their dysfunction and how this leads to abuse of their own

> children and denial of accountability-or how a BPD who had post partum

> psychosis will fail to ever apprehend that what she experienced were

> *delusions*.

>

>

>

>

>

> >

> > Yes, I think you're right, and nailed the details as to why:

> >

> > Premise:

> > A woman who has a personality disorder or some other mental illness to

> begin with *before* she becomes pregnant, is much less likely to be able to

> handle the mood-affecting hormone fluctuations of pregnancy, or be able to

> recognize and understand that she is experiencing serious altered emotional

> states like post-partum depression or post-partum psychosis.

> >

> > Why this happens:

> > One reason why personality disorder is currently designated in the DSM-IV

> as an Axis II or " untreatable " condition is that personality disorder is

> " ego syntonic. " This means that someone with personality disorder believes

> that their own perceptions, beliefs, thoughts and feelings are valid,

> appropriate and normal. They believe that there is nothing wrong with them

> at all, and all their problems are coming from outside themselves. Its other

> people who are the problem, never their own self.

> >

> > A person with borderline personality disorder can have " transient,

> stress-related paranoid ideation, delusions or severe dissociative symptoms "

> (symptom 9) anyway. But because personality is ego-syntonic, delusions and

> paranoid thoughts (breaks with reality) *seem " normal " to the person with

> bpd.* That explains why, years after the fact, 's nada still

> persisted in her delusional beliefs that (a) newborn was not her

> real daughter, that her own baby had been swapped for , and (

> infant had supernatural powers and hostile intentions toward nada.

>

> >

> > 's nada has never accepted that these beliefs might be due to

> psychosis, she persists in believing these are true facts because she has

> and had severe personality disorder to begin with.

> >

> > It could be due to denial, or to simply believing that in spite of all

> rational logical evidence to the contrary, her perceptions were accurate and

> not hallucinations at all.

> >

> > I buy this theory completely; it makes sense to me.

> >

> > -Annie

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

((((((((())))))))

I hope you do continue with your novel, it does sound potentially very cleansing

and healing for you, in my opinion, whether it gets published or not. Meaning,

that I think you are so talented and insightful that it could easily be

published, just depending on whether you want to publish it or not.

I also hope that you will overcome your survivor's guilt sooner rather than

later. What a horrible legacy, like a radioactive half-life of toxicity, having

a mentally ill parent bequeaths.

I think you are totally on target, in that in your nada's mind your death would

have meant a lifetime of gentle sympathy and recognition from other people for

her suffering over your tragic loss. Its just bone-chilling to take in that

concept.

To a lesser degree, I am dealing with the similar issue of trying to wrap my

mind around the idea that my nada was not/is not capable of actually loving me.

She was able to mimic the appearance of loving behaviors for periods of time and

to the outside, but her real feelings came out in so many ways, some covert,

some overt.

The reality of her words and behaviors do not speak of " love " at all, however,

and its nearly impossible to accept that.

I think that's because we're hardwired at a very, very deep level, a very

primitive level of our brains to reject that concept.

Its like overcoming millennia of evolutionary, genetic programming to take in

the reality that " my mother does not love me " and further, in some cases " my

mother wishes I were dead. " Because that is so counter-survival to the species.

In fact, if a child were to be *able* to comprehend that, I think the child

would fall into a suicidal depression. But even as adults we reject the

concept, its still that painful even though we are no longer physically

dependent on our mother for our very life.

But its that deeply embedded in our psyche that no matter how she actually

treats us, that " my mother loves me. "

-Annie

> >

> > Wow.

> >

> > Your nada's behaviors remind me of famous psychopaths Ted Bundy

> > and Wayne Gacy Jr who were intelligent, ambitious, civic-minded, and

absolutely charming and charismatic when it suited them. They each had the

ability to carry off a completely double life, appearing to be concerned,

responsible adult citizens by day,... AND serial killers at night.

> >

> > Psychiatrist Herve Cleckley refers to the psychopath's ability to pull off a

double life as the " mask of sanity. "

> >

> > Female serial killers are rare, but they do exist. They tend to be

emotionally close to their victims and kill their spouses, children, or the

elderly, and use covert or low-profile means to do so, like poisoning. While

most female serial killers murder for material profit, some do it to gain

attention; many are diagnosed with Munchausen Syndrome (but this article I'm

quoting from had no info on Munchausen's-by-proxy, committed by a parent against

her child.)

> >

> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serial_killer

> >

> > Other posts you've shared with us, , about the repeated instances

where your mother put you in dangerous situations and even tried to orchestrate

your death (indirectly, via the insane older child who did kill another child)

makes me believe your mother was/is a genuine psychopath.

> >

> > You are truly lucky to be alive at all.

> >

> > -Annie

>

[Guest guest]

Eek,Girlscout,what your nada did there is sssooooo passive aggressive: to put

you through that then " take it back " by saying you'd be one of the good ones.

I agree: she's a bitch.

Thanks for the compliment,too,that's very sweet

>

> , The year I entered 7th grade she accepted a job as a 7th grade

> English teacher. She hated it and hated all 7th graders and told me to the

> point that I would sob how much she hated 7th graders. Then she quit the job

> just in time for me not to be a 7th grader anymore. When I would ask me if

> she hated me because I was in 7th grade she would say something like, " well,

> I'm sure you would be one of the good ones. "

>

> What a B-I-T-C-H!!!! That's what I think!

>

> I would love to read your novel, you are a wonderful writer.

[Guest guest]

((((((Annie))))))) Hugging you back--I know,yes--it's nearly impossible to

accept that mother doesn't love me.For the very reasons you stated--that goes

completely against the grain of our very wiring biologically.

I think that my nada's cognitive distortion involved believing that her

own mother didn't love her.My grandmother was not a perfect mother,but what

mother is? She was,or would have been for a non BPD,a " good enough " mother in my

opinion.She was never verbally abusive--and most certainly never physically

abusive--to my nada.But she wasn't,how can I say,as utterly switched on and

affectionately obsessed with nada as nada apparently thought a mother should be.

And in this really sick way with her abuse of me,nada was *forcing* me

as the parentified (all bad) child to be absolutely,utterly beholden to her--to

the point even of death--forcing me to be that " obsessed with her every move "

substitute mother.If that makes any sense--I can see it but not quite define it.

And thank you for your kind words,understanding and support.They mean

alot

>

> ((((((((())))))))

>

> I hope you do continue with your novel, it does sound potentially very

cleansing and healing for you, in my opinion, whether it gets published or not.

Meaning, that I think you are so talented and insightful that it could easily be

published, just depending on whether you want to publish it or not.

>

> I also hope that you will overcome your survivor's guilt sooner rather than

later. What a horrible legacy, like a radioactive half-life of toxicity, having

a mentally ill parent bequeaths.

> I think you are totally on target, in that in your nada's mind your death

would have meant a lifetime of gentle sympathy and recognition from other people

for her suffering over your tragic loss. Its just bone-chilling to take in that

concept.

>

> To a lesser degree, I am dealing with the similar issue of trying to wrap my

mind around the idea that my nada was not/is not capable of actually loving me.

She was able to mimic the appearance of loving behaviors for periods of time and

to the outside, but her real feelings came out in so many ways, some covert,

some overt.

>

> The reality of her words and behaviors do not speak of " love " at all, however,

and its nearly impossible to accept that.

>

> I think that's because we're hardwired at a very, very deep level, a very

primitive level of our brains to reject that concept.

>

> Its like overcoming millennia of evolutionary, genetic programming to take in

the reality that " my mother does not love me " and further, in some cases " my

mother wishes I were dead. " Because that is so counter-survival to the species.

In fact, if a child were to be *able* to comprehend that, I think the child

would fall into a suicidal depression. But even as adults we reject the

concept, its still that painful even though we are no longer physically

dependent on our mother for our very life.

>

> But its that deeply embedded in our psyche that no matter how she actually

treats us, that " my mother loves me. "

>

> -Annie

[Guest guest]

Oh yes, I totally buy what you're getting at RE your mother's relationship with

her own mother, and how your mother then wanted to turn you into her mother. My

nada too believed that her own mother neglected her and preferred her older

sister, even though my grandmother never evidenced any behaviors of that kind to

my knowledge. My perception was that my granny treated all of us alike, and she

loved all of us.

I've noticed too that at least for a while and to one degree or another, some

new mothers are " smitten " with their baby. They literally fall in love with

their little one, and I think that must be what's supposed to happen, because

the people I've noticed doing this are mentally healthy themselves, and are

raising mentally healthy kids.

Its got to be a balancing act, though, seems to me. A healthy middle ground

must be reached at some point because remaining in that " smitten " state

indefinitely could lead to overindulging and spoiling the child, and we know

firsthand what the other extreme is: rejecting the child altogether ( " its not my

baby " , or " the baby hates me " ) which leads to neglect and abuse and/or the weird

tact of turning the infant into one's own parent.

To me, the underlying dysfunction is that the personality-disordered mother is

incapable of relating to her child as simply another separate and unique human

being. The baby of the bpd mother is, instead:

a changeling

(not her own child, a horrible mistake, not perfect, etc.)

a tiny reflection of her own self

(the child will not be allowed any individuality, because he or she is a mere

appendage of nada that has no will or mind of its own)

a reincarnation of someone she hates

(who deserves to be punished forever)

a reincarnation of someone she loves

(who deserves to be treated like a king or queen)

an object put here for her use

(a pet, a slave, a disposable wipe,

a potential source of income/ fame/attention/status, or

her own parent: someone trained to care for her like a parent, etc.)

One reason why we are struggling so with having had or still having a mother (or

father) with bpd is that often its just one individual child that is targeted

for mistreatment, or one set of people. I don't think the psychiatric

definitions of mental illness even describes that dynamic under " personality

disorder " . Instead, the definition of pd is that the behaviors are " pervasive " ,

meaning, all the time, and to many people. (Right?)

I'm leaning more and more toward the theory that the Cluster B disorders are

really just varying degrees of severity and frequency of psychopathy. That's

the only thing that seems to explain, to me anyway, this ability of our nadas to

seem normal to other people but they just do these horrible things to us, in

private.

-Annie

> >

> > ((((((((())))))))

> >

> > I hope you do continue with your novel, it does sound potentially very

cleansing and healing for you, in my opinion, whether it gets published or not.

Meaning, that I think you are so talented and insightful that it could easily be

published, just depending on whether you want to publish it or not.

> >

> > I also hope that you will overcome your survivor's guilt sooner rather than

later. What a horrible legacy, like a radioactive half-life of toxicity, having

a mentally ill parent bequeaths.

> > I think you are totally on target, in that in your nada's mind your death

would have meant a lifetime of gentle sympathy and recognition from other people

for her suffering over your tragic loss. Its just bone-chilling to take in that

concept.

> >

> > To a lesser degree, I am dealing with the similar issue of trying to wrap my

mind around the idea that my nada was not/is not capable of actually loving me.

She was able to mimic the appearance of loving behaviors for periods of time and

to the outside, but her real feelings came out in so many ways, some covert,

some overt.

> >

> > The reality of her words and behaviors do not speak of " love " at all,

however, and its nearly impossible to accept that.

> >

> > I think that's because we're hardwired at a very, very deep level, a very

primitive level of our brains to reject that concept.

> >

> > Its like overcoming millennia of evolutionary, genetic programming to take

in the reality that " my mother does not love me " and further, in some cases " my

mother wishes I were dead. " Because that is so counter-survival to the species.

In fact, if a child were to be *able* to comprehend that, I think the child

would fall into a suicidal depression. But even as adults we reject the

concept, its still that painful even though we are no longer physically

dependent on our mother for our very life.

> >

> > But its that deeply embedded in our psyche that no matter how she actually

treats us, that " my mother loves me. "

> >

> > -Annie

>

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

One of the things nada told me that day was that when I was a baby I

could keep a completely straight,blank face like I was fine while causing my

crying to resound amplified at a very high volume in *her* head.

That did it for me--I told her outright that this was impossible.She

insisted: No,no,you really did.That was the way you were.

Then to " prove " her point she told me that until I was about six

months old she couldn't decide if I was in fact demonic or divine,so one day to

test this when I was about six months old she let go of me while she was giving

me a bath and let me slip beneath the water to see if I would " rise " .If I

rose,that would be evidence,according to her,that I was divinely blessed.If I

sank and stayed down,that would be evidence of " heavy demonic forces " .

According to her,I rose: I got my nose and mouth up above the water

level and continued to breathe.She " knew " then that God had entrusted her with a

mission to raise me.And that,she said,was the " reason " why she was telling me

now,that day.Because often she had questioned this,questioned God,but now she

believed it for sure.

At the time I was planning on applying for a Fullbright grant to do a

linguistics project in Papua New Guinea--I felt under pressure from some of my

professors to perform because my ideas for the project had been so well received

and I felt like I was expected to be like the next Margaret Mead,but was very

worried that my perceptions of their expectations were messed up and also very

worried that I was going to cave under the pressure.My friends at the time were

all gung ho about me possibly getting the Fullbright and sort of envious of the

attention I had gotten,so they weren't much help.I needed a parent to sit down

with me and help me to flesh out whether or not proceeding was really in my best

interests,or to just reassure me that even if I decided to take a break to clear

my head and gave up the Fullbright that they'd support me and love me anyway.

Instead what I got was nada telling me that crazy shit.It totally added

to the pressure and to the feeling that I couldn't cope.The only good thing was

that when she told me that I realized that the weird lurking presence I felt was

always hanging over me wasn't coming from me: it was from my infancy,it was

*her*.It had always felt like there was some *thing* that was going to rear up

and get me--which felt really crazy and it tormented me because I knew it was

crazy--so when she told me that I understood where it had come from.She was that

thing!

I didn't apply for the Fullbright.My professors were disappointed in me:

" I don't understand why you would pass up such an opportunity " ... " I'm very sorry

to hear you won't even apply,I think you would have got it but you don't even

want to try? " ... " You know,the world needs people like you,it's always a shame

when people like you refuse to believe in themselves because that does amount to

a shirking of their responsibilities " --that last one kept echoing in my head for

a long time like this searing condemnation of me,but...I think I made the right

decision for myself---because if going to Papua New Guinea was all I had to

worry about; if positioning myself as some rising star of academia was all I had

to worry about,ok maybe I would have been a slacker to not even try.But I had so

much more going on and wasn't getting any understanding from *anybody*.Just all

this pressure,as I perceived it,to perform.And a nada telling me that she had

nearly killed me to see if I was divinely blessed.

Sorry to ramble on like that.But,yeah,the gist is that I did try to call

her on it and she upted the ante and successfully freaked me out.

>

> Wow , echoing others here that it is a miracle you are alive. What

reaction did you show when she told you these things? Did she understand it was

psychosis by the time you were 22 or was she still believing those things

happened? Reading your post about how she was a school teacher it almost makes

me wonder if she has true alternate personalities. I don't know if that's even

possible - for a person to contain a saintly teacher personality and a crazy

abusive mother personality. Anyway, I'm glad you made it out of there to have a

good life.

>

>