Could you be charged with murder?

[Guest guest]

Please read this article about a situation in Wisconsin where medics have

been sued for wrongful death in connection with their care of a patient.

http://www.gazetteextra.com/lawsuit072305.asp

I'm writing this from a Texas perspective, but many other states have similar

statutes.

I think it's entirely possible that an aggressive prosecutor could charge one

or more of the medics involved in this case with a degree of homicide or

assault and battery. (Texas does not use the word battery. It only uses

assault. Look at your own state's statutes.)

If you practice in Texas, or even if you don't, please go to Google.com and

put in Texas Penal Code. Then look at the following sections:

Sections 7.01, 02, and 03, deal with parties to a crime and accomplices.

Look at section 19.01, Criminal Homicide, 19.04, Manslaughter, and 19.05,

Criminal Negligence.

Then go to section 22.01, assault, and section 22.02, aggravated assault.

If, after you read those sections, you don't think that the folks involved in

the Winconsin incident, if in Texas, could be charged either with

Manslaughter, Negligent Homicide, Assault, or Aggravated Assault, then please

let me

know.

Within the last several years a physician in California has been charged with

homicide in the treatment of a patient. He was exonerated by the jury, as I

recall, but damage was done.

Questions to ask: Will your employer's liability insurance cover you if

you're charged with a criminal act in connection with patient treatment? Will

your own liability insurance protect you?

Can you afford to hire a competent attorney to represent you if you're

charged with a degree of homicide in connection with treatment, or assault in

case

the patient lives. Remember that there is no statute of limitations on murder

or its lesser included offenses.

Without passing judgment on the medics involved in the incident AS REPORTED

BY THE NEWSPAPER, whose reporting I do in no way endorse, it seems to me that

every medic ought to think about the reported facts of this case and the legal

implications of the situation.

An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

Gene G..

E.(Gene) Gandy

POB 1651

Albany, TX 76430

wegandy1938@...

[Guest guest]

Gene,

That story was very interesting and sad. I find it hard to believe that a

paramedic would straddle a patient, and put a blanket over their face, and the

result..killing the patient.

In the story, it states that there were five medics and three officers, this

story doesn't sound right.... why were two ambulances and three police

officers called to the scene, and no FD. This doesn't sound like a normal

response

for a medical call, sounds more like a domestic call. Nevertheless, now the

medics and the FD are in deep doo doo.

If you take a look at the bottom of the story, there are also claims that

the FD/EMS department failed to train the medics how to " forcibly restrain an

AMS patient " and some claim about being denied his " constitutional rights of

equal protection and unlawful search and seizure. "

It does bring up a couple of questions of protection for us, for street

level EMS:

When the LP certification came about, people were wanting to get their own

liability insurance, because they were licensed. So, does that exempt the

certified medics from liability? So, where are the boundary's for EMS

liability?

Let's load up all of the variables: Certified, licensed, volunteer, and

paid.

Does anyone have their own liability insurance?

I figure that every agency should have a blanket liability policy to cover

the staff. I would imagine the lawyer going after the medical control because

they make the bigger dollar.

Opinions welcome... enjoy your Sunday,

Ron M.

Certified Paramedic

[Guest guest]

I carry my own liability insurance, and have done so for the past 14 years.

It is the policy offered through NAEMT.

Barry McClung, EMT-P

[Guest guest]

Seems I recall a case a few years ago up north where some Rural Metro (I

believe) medics were sued for assault because they responded to a residence

where a man was having chest pain. His drunk girlfriend kept screaming that the

paramedics had to take the guy to the hospital, but the man kept refusing. If I

remember correctly, the woman began striking one of the paramedics who grabbed

her arms and took her down because she was striking him, but this made the

boyfriend angry and aggressive. So the paramedics exited stage left to their

unit with these folks throwing rocks at them as they left and threatening to

sue, which they did. From the article I read about this, I seem to recall that

the ambulance service settled out of court with these people, and the medics

involved became unemployed.

In another Texas case, a male medic was accused of inappropriately touching a

patient during a trauma exam after a MVC. Of course, the scuttlebutt from other

healthcare professionals present at the ED where she was delivered stated that

the patient was overheard to be thanking the two EMS crewmembers for their care

but when her very angry and very verbally abusive and yelling husband arrived at

the ED, she began telling him how that Paramedic had copped a feel during the

ride to the hospital. This went to a complaint to TDH; I am not sure but I

think it went to a civil suit later - never heard for sure. The moral of the

story was that it was HER word against HIS, the Bureau found for her, and he was

no longer a Paramedic. The base company who owned the ambulance service did

little to protect him and much to protect them (which is the norm), and he took

the hit for it. He was sacrificed to protect the service and the owner

agency, even though the general concensus by anyone who knew the story or knew

him was that he never did was he was accused of doing.

Don't depend on your service's insurance to protect you. Believe me, if it is

less expensive to make you a sacrificial goat, that is EXACTLY what will happen.

Who drives that boat??? Partly the service owner/directors, probably mostly the

insurance carrier.... And ANYONE can make an accusation against you at any time

and, in most cases, it is THEIR word against YOUR word since most of us spend

time alone in the back of our units with our patients. A walk-through ambulance

has some protection because the driver can hear some things, but in the case I

mentioned above, my understanding was the investigators even got in the driver's

seat of the unit and drove around to see what they could hear in the back and

what they could see in the rearview mirror to discredit anything the driver

said. So do you want to depend on YOUR service and your service's LIABILITY

INSURANCE CARRIER to defend you? Or would it be better to have a lawyer of your

own too to ensure you are protected and if so, can you afford it?

Jane Hill

-------------- Original message from hypnoron@...: --------------

Gene,

That story was very interesting and sad. I find it hard to believe that a

paramedic would straddle a patient, and put a blanket over their face, and the

result..killing the patient.

In the story, it states that there were five medics and three officers, this

story doesn't sound right.... why were two ambulances and three police

officers called to the scene, and no FD. This doesn't sound like a normal

response

for a medical call, sounds more like a domestic call. Nevertheless, now the

medics and the FD are in deep doo doo.

If you take a look at the bottom of the story, there are also claims that

the FD/EMS department failed to train the medics how to " forcibly restrain an

AMS patient " and some claim about being denied his " constitutional rights of

equal protection and unlawful search and seizure. "

It does bring up a couple of questions of protection for us, for street

level EMS:

When the LP certification came about, people were wanting to get their own

liability insurance, because they were licensed. So, does that exempt the

certified medics from liability? So, where are the boundary's for EMS

liability?

Let's load up all of the variables: Certified, licensed, volunteer, and

paid.

Does anyone have their own liability insurance?

I figure that every agency should have a blanket liability policy to cover

the staff. I would imagine the lawyer going after the medical control because

they make the bigger dollar.

Opinions welcome... enjoy your Sunday,

Ron M.

Certified Paramedic

[Guest guest]

Ron,

My guess is that the response of 5 medics was 1 Engine Company (3) and 1

Ambulance (2). At least that was my assumption while reading it, but we all

know what the word assume really means, so…….. I do agree with you, that

something doesn’t add up here. Why was the PD dispatched also? My “assumption”

is that they’ve had problems here before and based on the article are familiar

with this patient, and or the family. I don’t believe everything I read,

especially in newspapers and information that comes from lawsuits. The rest of

this story will come out in court, and then we’ll see what really happened.

I didn’t at all understand the 4th amendment question here, but we don’t have

“the rest of the story”. Most blanket policies have language that excludes

criminal acts. I realize the article was about a civil proceeding, but Gene

asked about the criminal ramifications.

Tater

hypnoron@... wrote:

Gene,

That story was very interesting and sad. I find it hard to believe that a

paramedic would straddle a patient, and put a blanket over their face, and the

result..killing the patient.

In the story, it states that there were five medics and three officers, this

story doesn't sound right.... why were two ambulances and three police

officers called to the scene, and no FD. This doesn't sound like a normal

response

for a medical call, sounds more like a domestic call. Nevertheless, now the

medics and the FD are in deep doo doo.

If you take a look at the bottom of the story, there are also claims that

the FD/EMS department failed to train the medics how to " forcibly restrain an

AMS patient " and some claim about being denied his " constitutional rights of

equal protection and unlawful search and seizure. "

It does bring up a couple of questions of protection for us, for street

level EMS:

When the LP certification came about, people were wanting to get their own

liability insurance, because they were licensed. So, does that exempt the

certified medics from liability? So, where are the boundary's for EMS

liability?

Let's load up all of the variables: Certified, licensed, volunteer, and

paid.

Does anyone have their own liability insurance?

I figure that every agency should have a blanket liability policy to cover

the staff. I would imagine the lawyer going after the medical control because

they make the bigger dollar.

Opinions welcome... enjoy your Sunday,

Ron M.

Certified Paramedic

[Guest guest]

Sounds like a Union would help in these bogus cases. I have a question.....

Why do the firefighters have such strong and powerful unions, the cops, in come

cases the nurses, but you never hear about any EMS unions? If an IAFF

Firefighter loses his job over some BS, the union will hire BIG lawyers to

represent him in court. I read all the time about FF's being fired and (after

grief, etc) being returned to work with back-pay, etc because someone stood up

for them. On the other hand I hear about medics becoming the " sacrificial lamb "

and they disappear off into oblivion......

Are unions the " solution " , even in a non-union state like Texas?

Tater

je.hill@... wrote:

Seems I recall a case a few years ago up north where some Rural Metro (I

believe) medics were sued for assault because they responded to a residence

where a man was having chest pain. His drunk girlfriend kept screaming that the

paramedics had to take the guy to the hospital, but the man kept refusing. If I

remember correctly, the woman began striking one of the paramedics who grabbed

her arms and took her down because she was striking him, but this made the

boyfriend angry and aggressive. So the paramedics exited stage left to their

unit with these folks throwing rocks at them as they left and threatening to

sue, which they did. From the article I read about this, I seem to recall that

the ambulance service settled out of court with these people, and the medics

involved became unemployed.

In another Texas case, a male medic was accused of inappropriately touching a

patient during a trauma exam after a MVC. Of course, the scuttlebutt from other

healthcare professionals present at the ED where she was delivered stated that

the patient was overheard to be thanking the two EMS crewmembers for their care

but when her very angry and very verbally abusive and yelling husband arrived at

the ED, she began telling him how that Paramedic had copped a feel during the

ride to the hospital. This went to a complaint to TDH; I am not sure but I

think it went to a civil suit later - never heard for sure. The moral of the

story was that it was HER word against HIS, the Bureau found for her, and he was

no longer a Paramedic. The base company who owned the ambulance service did

little to protect him and much to protect them (which is the norm), and he took

the hit for it. He was sacrificed to protect the service and the owner

agency, even though the general concensus by anyone who

knew the story or knew him was that he never did was he was accused of doing.

Don't depend on your service's insurance to protect you. Believe me, if it is

less expensive to make you a sacrificial goat, that is EXACTLY what will happen.

Who drives that boat??? Partly the service owner/directors, probably mostly the

insurance carrier.... And ANYONE can make an accusation against you at any time

and, in most cases, it is THEIR word against YOUR word since most of us spend

time alone in the back of our units with our patients. A walk-through ambulance

has some protection because the driver can hear some things, but in the case I

mentioned above, my understanding was the investigators even got in the driver's

seat of the unit and drove around to see what they could hear in the back and

what they could see in the rearview mirror to discredit anything the driver

said. So do you want to depend on YOUR service and your service's LIABILITY

INSURANCE CARRIER to defend you? Or would it be better to have a lawyer of your

own too to ensure you are protected and if

so, can you afford it?

Jane Hill

-------------- Original message from hypnoron@...: --------------

Gene,

That story was very interesting and sad. I find it hard to believe that a

paramedic would straddle a patient, and put a blanket over their face, and the

result..killing the patient.

In the story, it states that there were five medics and three officers, this

story doesn't sound right.... why were two ambulances and three police

officers called to the scene, and no FD. This doesn't sound like a normal

response

for a medical call, sounds more like a domestic call. Nevertheless, now the

medics and the FD are in deep doo doo.

If you take a look at the bottom of the story, there are also claims that

the FD/EMS department failed to train the medics how to " forcibly restrain an

AMS patient " and some claim about being denied his " constitutional rights of

equal protection and unlawful search and seizure. "

It does bring up a couple of questions of protection for us, for street

level EMS:

When the LP certification came about, people were wanting to get their own

liability insurance, because they were licensed. So, does that exempt the

certified medics from liability? So, where are the boundary's for EMS

liability?

Let's load up all of the variables: Certified, licensed, volunteer, and

paid.

Does anyone have their own liability insurance?

I figure that every agency should have a blanket liability policy to cover

the staff. I would imagine the lawyer going after the medical control because

they make the bigger dollar.

Opinions welcome... enjoy your Sunday,

Ron M.

Certified Paramedic

[Guest guest]

It was in the story...I am showing that I read it, doesn't mean I agree or

understand it......

Ron

[Guest guest]

Ron,

I am a Certified Paramedic, and have always carried liability

insurance on myself when I am either teaching or in a patient care

environment, you can't always count on your employer's insurance to

cover you, or for their attorneys to represent your best interests.

I have and always will carry it.

>

>

>

> Gene,

>

> That story was very interesting and sad. I find it hard to

believe that a

> paramedic would straddle a patient, and put a blanket over their

face, and the

> result..killing the patient.

>

> In the story, it states that there were five medics and three

officers, this

> story doesn't sound right.... why were two ambulances and three

police

> officers called to the scene, and no FD. This doesn't sound like

a normal response

> for a medical call, sounds more like a domestic call.

Nevertheless, now the

> medics and the FD are in deep doo doo.

>

> If you take a look at the bottom of the story, there are also

claims that

> the FD/EMS department failed to train the medics how to " forcibly

restrain an

> AMS patient " and some claim about being denied

his " constitutional rights of

> equal protection and unlawful search and seizure. "

>

> It does bring up a couple of questions of protection for us, for

street

> level EMS:

>

> When the LP certification came about, people were wanting to get

their own

> liability insurance, because they were licensed. So, does that

exempt the

> certified medics from liability? So, where are the boundary's

for EMS liability?

> Let's load up all of the variables: Certified, licensed,

volunteer, and

> paid.

>

> Does anyone have their own liability insurance?

>

> I figure that every agency should have a blanket liability policy

to cover

> the staff. I would imagine the lawyer going after the medical

control because

> they make the bigger dollar.

>

> Opinions welcome... enjoy your Sunday,

>

> Ron M.

> Certified Paramedic

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Guys

It is hard to believe that someone would acutely do that not to say that it has

not crossed my mind on several ocassions?!!!!!

Mark

<<<< you can lead a horse to water butyou can't make him drink>>>>>>

born 150 years to late ???

cowboy up!?

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Remember, the media is basing their coverage on the plaintiff's pleadings,

which by their very nature, seek to cast the defendants in the worst light

possible.

And I'd remind the list of the difference between a civil lawsuit and

criminal charges. The plaintiff has no burden of proof to meet when

initially

FILING a lawsuit. A criminal complaint (whether an information or grand

jury

indictment) must be supported by a finding of probable cause. In addition,

the

standard of proof between a civil case (preponderance of the evidence) and

a

criminal case (beyond a reasonable doubt) is equally large.

In other words, what we have right now are allegations. Only allegations.

-Wes Ogilvie, MPA, JD, EMT

Austin, Texas

In a message dated 7/23/2005 11:20:10 PM Central Daylight Time,

wegandy1938@... writes:

Please read this article about a situation in Wisconsin where medics have

been sued for wrongful death in connection with their care of a patient.

http://www.gazetteextra.com/lawsuit072305.asp

I'm writing this from a Texas perspective, but many other states have

similar

statutes.

I think it's entirely possible that an aggressive prosecutor could charge

one

or more of the medics involved in this case with a degree of homicide or

assault and battery. (Texas does not use the word battery. It only uses

assault. Look at your own state's statutes.)

If you practice in Texas, or even if you don't, please go to Google.com and

put in Texas Penal Code. Then look at the following sections:

Sections 7.01, 02, and 03, deal with parties to a crime and accomplices.

Look at section 19.01, Criminal Homicide, 19.04, Manslaughter, and 19.05,

Criminal Negligence.

Then go to section 22.01, assault, and section 22.02, aggravated assault.

If, after you read those sections, you don't think that the folks involved

in

the Winconsin incident, if in Texas, could be charged either with

Manslaughter, Negligent Homicide, Assault, or Aggravated Assault, then

please let me

know.

Within the last several years a physician in California has been charged

with

homicide in the treatment of a patient. He was exonerated by the jury, as

I

recall, but damage was done.

Questions to ask: Will your employer's liability insurance cover you if

you're charged with a criminal act in connection with patient treatment?

Will

your own liability insurance protect you?

Can you afford to hire a competent attorney to represent you if you're

charged with a degree of homicide in connection with treatment, or assault

in case

the patient lives. Remember that there is no statute of limitations on

murder

or its lesser included offenses.

Without passing judgment on the medics involved in the incident AS REPORTED

BY THE NEWSPAPER, whose reporting I do in no way endorse, it seems to me

that

every medic ought to think about the reported facts of this case and the

legal

implications of the situation.

An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

Gene G..

E.(Gene) Gandy

POB 1651

Albany, TX 76430

wegandy1938@...

[Guest guest]

>

>

>

> Gene,

>

> That story was very interesting and sad. I find it hard  to believe that a

> paramedic would straddle a patient, and put a blanket over  their face, and

> the

> result..killing the patient.

>

> In the story, it states that there were five medics  and three officers,

> this

> story doesn't sound right....  why were two ambulances and three police

> officers called to the scene, and no  FD. This doesn't sound like a normal

> response

> for a medical call, sounds  more like a domestic call. Nevertheless, now the

> medics and the  FD are in deep doo doo.  

>

> GG: Agreed. I'm sure there's a lot more to the story that will now come

out.

> If you take a look at the bottom of the story, there are  also claims that

> the FD/EMS department failed to train the medics how to  " forcibly restrain

> an

> AMS patient " and some claim about being denied his  " constitutional rights

> of

> equal protection and unlawful search and  seizure. "

>

GG: That should get the attention of every medical director and the

supervisors, who are ultimately responsible for th actions of the medics if a

failure

to train and supervise can be shown.

I had a case a few years ago where a supervisor admitted in his deposition

that, even though the PCR on the call in question showed negligence on its face,

and he knew about it, no remedial action was done, possibly not admissible in

evidence. But then the questioning shifted to routine actions of the

supervisor in prior cases and it came out that there was a consistent pattern of

failure to take action in cases of questionable treatment prior to the incident

in question. Zap!

>

> It does bring up a couple of questions of protection for  us, for street

> level EMS:

>

> When the LP certification came about, people were  wanting to get their own

> liability insurance, because they were  licensed. So, does that exempt the

> certified medics  from liability?  So, where are the boundary's for EMS

> liability?

> Let's load  up all of the variables: Certified, licensed, volunteer, and 

> paid.

>

The Good Samaritan Law in Texas and H & SC section 773.009 grant limited

immunity for ALL ems personnel, paid or not. They each stop at ordinary

negligence. In other words, the plaintiff must prove wilfull and wanton

conduct to get

past those two sections IF they are asserted as an affirmative defense.

The Paramedic Licensure does not change that, since Texas Paramedics are

licensed in name only, meaning that the license is not a true license in the

sense

of one being licensed in the healing arts.

(Remember that the current case in question is in Wisconsin. I have not

researched Wisconsin law.)

Therefore, each medic is liable for his own actions. Municipal services may

have some degree of immunity, but that matter is quite complex. There is no

such immunity for private services.

The employer's or service's liability policy may or may not cover the medics.

It is imperative that each medic have personal liability insurance, IN MY

OPINION!

>

> Does anyone have their own liability  insurance?

>

I carry my own. My policy is from HPSO and costs me $160/year for a million

in coverage, and it covers me for disputes with the certification agency

also. It also covers me as an instructor.

>

> I figure that every agency should have a blanket  liability policy to cover

> the staff. I would imagine the lawyer going  after the medical control

> because

> they make the bigger dollar.

>

Exectly. Each deep pocket can expect to be sued, along with each shallow

pocket. Some Plaintiff's lawyers will sue all parties, some just the service,

some, the medics, and so forth. It depends on the individual situation.

Gene G.

>

> Opinions welcome... enjoy your Sunday,

>

> Ron M.

> Certified Paramedic

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I remember both of the cases Jane relates.

The second case was very troubling. As she correctly states, the hospital

based service threw the medic to the wolves. And the TDH Bureau of Emergency

management rendered one of the most egregiously unfair decisions I ever knew

of them doing. They revoked his certificate.

If that happens to you, you'll need strong financial backing to fight the

case through the system. A service's liability policy will not cover a medic

for that sort of battle. But your private policy will at least provide some

protection and funds for fighting an administrative decision like that.

Gene G.

> Seems I recall a case a few years ago up north where some Rural Metro (I

> believe) medics were sued for assault because they responded to a residence

> where a man was having chest pain.  His drunk girlfriend kept screaming that

the

> paramedics had to take the guy to the hospital, but the man kept refusing. 

> If I remember correctly, the woman began striking one of the paramedics who

> grabbed her arms and took her down because she was striking him, but this made

> the boyfriend angry and aggressive.  So the paramedics exited stage left to

> their unit with these folks throwing rocks at them as they left and

> threatening to sue, which they did.  From the article I read about this, I

seem to

> recall that the ambulance service settled out of court with these people, and

> the medics involved became unemployed. 

>

> In another Texas case, a male medic was accused of inappropriately touching

> a patient during a trauma exam after a MVC.  Of course, the scuttlebutt from

> other healthcare professionals present at the ED where she was delivered

> stated that the patient was overheard to be thanking the two EMS crewmembers

for

> their care but when her very angry and very verbally abusive and yelling

> husband arrived at the ED, she began telling him how that Paramedic had copped

a

> feel during the ride to the hospital.  This went to a complaint to TDH; I am

> not sure but I think it went to a civil suit later - never heard for sure. 

> The moral of the story was that it was HER word against HIS, the Bureau found

> for her, and he was no longer a Paramedic.  The base company who owned the

> ambulance service did little to protect him and much to protect them (which is

> the norm), and he took the hit for it.    He was sacrificed to protect the

> service and the owner agency, even though the general consensus by anyone who

> knew the story or knew him was that he never did was he was accused of doing. 

>

> Don't depend on your service's insurance to protect you.  Believe me, if it

> is less expensive to make you a sacrificial goat, that is EXACTLY what will

> happen.  Who drives that boat???  Partly the service owner/directors, probably

> mostly the insurance carrier....  And ANYONE can make an accusation against

> you at any time and, in most cases, it is THEIR word against YOUR word since

> most of us spend time alone in the back of our units with our patients.  A

> walk-through ambulance has some protection because the driver can hear some

> things, but in the case I mentioned above, my understanding was the

> investigators even got in the driver's seat of the unit and drove around to

see what they

> could hear in the back and what they could see in the rearview mirror to

> discredit anything the driver said.  So do you want to depend on YOUR service

> and your service's LIABILITY INSURANCE CARRIER to defend you?  Or would it be

> better to have a lawyer of your own too to ensure you are protected and if so,

> can you afford it?

>

> Jane Hill

> -------------- Original message from hypnoron@...: --------------

>

>

>

>

> Gene,

>

> That story was very interesting and sad. I find it hard  to believe that a

> paramedic would straddle a patient, and put a blanket over  their face, and

> the

> result..killing the patient.

>

> In the story, it states that there were five medics  and three officers,

> this

> story doesn't sound right....  why were two ambulances and three police

> officers called to the scene, and no  FD. This doesn't sound like a normal

> response

> for a medical call, sounds  more like a domestic call. Nevertheless, now the

> medics and the  FD are in deep doo doo.  

>

> If you take a look at the bottom of the story, there are  also claims that

> the FD/EMS department failed to train the medics how to  " forcibly restrain

> an

> AMS patient " and some claim about being denied his  " constitutional rights

> of

> equal protection and unlawful search and  seizure. "

>

> It does bring up a couple of questions of protection for  us, for street

> level EMS:

>

> When the LP certification came about, people were  wanting to get their own

> liability insurance, because they were  licensed. So, does that exempt the

> certified medics  from liability?  So, where are the boundary's for EMS

> liability?

> Let's load  up all of the variables: Certified, licensed, volunteer, and 

> paid.

>

> Does anyone have their own liability  insurance?

>

> I figure that every agency should have a blanket  liability policy to cover

> the staff. I would imagine the lawyer going  after the medical control

> because

> they make the bigger dollar.

>

> Opinions welcome... enjoy your Sunday,

>

> Ron M.

> Certified Paramedic

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Heck, I would just be pleased to get a successful association off the ground...

LOL

Jane Hill

-------------- Original message from " E. Tate " :

--------------

Sounds like a Union would help in these bogus cases. I have a question.....

Why do the firefighters have such strong and powerful unions, the cops, in come

cases the nurses, but you never hear about any EMS unions? If an IAFF

Firefighter loses his job over some BS, the union will hire BIG lawyers to

represent him in court. I read all the time about FF's being fired and (after

grief, etc) being returned to work with back-pay, etc because someone stood up

for them. On the other hand I hear about medics becoming the " sacrificial lamb "

and they disappear off into oblivion......

Are unions the " solution " , even in a non-union state like Texas?

Tater

je.hill@... wrote:

Seems I recall a case a few years ago up north where some Rural Metro (I

believe) medics were sued for assault because they responded to a residence

where a man was having chest pain. His drunk girlfriend kept screaming that the

paramedics had to take the guy to the hospital, but the man kept refusing. If I

remember correctly, the woman began striking one of the paramedics who grabbed

her arms and took her down because she was striking him, but this made the

boyfriend angry and aggressive. So the paramedics exited stage left to their

unit with these folks throwing rocks at them as they left and threatening to

sue, which they did. From the article I read about this, I seem to recall that

the ambulance service settled out of court with these people, and the medics

involved became unemployed.

In another Texas case, a male medic was accused of inappropriately touching a

patient during a trauma exam after a MVC. Of course, the scuttlebutt from other

healthcare professionals present at the ED where she was delivered stated that

the patient was overheard to be thanking the two EMS crewmembers for their care

but when her very angry and very verbally abusive and yelling husband arrived at

the ED, she began telling him how that Paramedic had copped a feel during the

ride to the hospital. This went to a complaint to TDH; I am not sure but I

think it went to a civil suit later - never heard for sure. The moral of the

story was that it was HER word against HIS, the Bureau found for her, and he was

no longer a Paramedic. The base company who owned the ambulance service did

little to protect him and much to protect them (which is the norm), and he took

the hit for it. He was sacrificed to protect the service and the owner

agency, even though the general concensus by anyone who

knew the story or knew him was that he never did was he was accused of doing.

Don't depend on your service's insurance to protect you. Believe me, if it is

less expensive to make you a sacrificial goat, that is EXACTLY what will happen.

Who drives that boat??? Partly the service owner/directors, probably mostly the

insurance carrier.... And ANYONE can make an accusation against you at any time

and, in most cases, it is THEIR word against YOUR word since most of us spend

time alone in the back of our units with our patients. A walk-through ambulance

has some protection because the driver can hear some things, but in the case I

mentioned above, my understanding was the investigators even got in the driver's

seat of the unit and drove around to see what they could hear in the back and

what they could see in the rearview mirror to discredit anything the driver

said. So do you want to depend on YOUR service and your service's LIABILITY

INSURANCE CARRIER to defend you? Or would it be better to have a lawyer of your

own too to ensure you are protected and if

so, can you afford it?

Jane Hill

-------------- Original message from hypnoron@...: --------------

Gene,

That story was very interesting and sad. I find it hard to believe that a

paramedic would straddle a patient, and put a blanket over their face, and the

result..killing the patient.

In the story, it states that there were five medics and three officers, this

story doesn't sound right.... why were two ambulances and three police

officers called to the scene, and no FD. This doesn't sound like a normal

response

for a medical call, sounds more like a domestic call. Nevertheless, now the

medics and the FD are in deep doo doo.

If you take a look at the bottom of the story, there are also claims that

the FD/EMS department failed to train the medics how to " forcibly restrain an

AMS patient " and some claim about being denied his " constitutional rights of

equal protection and unlawful search and seizure. "

It does bring up a couple of questions of protection for us, for street

level EMS:

When the LP certification came about, people were wanting to get their own

liability insurance, because they were licensed. So, does that exempt the

certified medics from liability? So, where are the boundary's for EMS

liability?

Let's load up all of the variables: Certified, licensed, volunteer, and

paid.

Does anyone have their own liability insurance?

I figure that every agency should have a blanket liability policy to cover

the staff. I would imagine the lawyer going after the medical control because

they make the bigger dollar.

Opinions welcome... enjoy your Sunday,

Ron M.

Certified Paramedic

[Guest guest]

Wes and others make some very good points.

Now that there has been plenty of commentary, let me offer some summary.

1. I put the scenario on here to get you thinking about the possibility of

criminal charges being filed against medics. The newspaper article was used

as the vehicle to get the discussion going. I believe I said (if I didn't, I

do now) that the article is to be taken at face value not for the truth of

the matters but as a starting point for the discussion.

2. Several have questioned the number of personnel onscene. As has

pointed out, an engine company and one ambulance could easily yield 5

paramedics. It is quite routine in urban systems that fire units be dispatched

along

with MICU. Also, in our service, sheriff's officers routinely show up since

they know that we often need help in lifting, getting the dogs and snakes

corralled, and so forth. So the number of responders is in no way unusual.

Your

service may only dispatch an ambulance with two responders. There are many

different response models in the US.

3. The article reflects that a civil suit has been filed in federal court.

Why federal court? Generally speaking you can only file in federal court

if there is a federal question or you have diversity of citizenship between

Plaintiff and Defendant. This case may be based upon the Civil Rights Act.

It's not apparent from the article.

4. Civil actions and criminal actions are entirely different animals. I

did not mean to imply that the defendants in this case would be charged

criminally. I only meant to get you thinking about the POSSIBILITY of such

charges

based upon actions of medics. And I only used as a reference point the Texas

Penal Code. Each state varies. It is highly unlikely that any sort of

federal criminal violation exists under the facts as reported unless it might be

a civil rights violation.

5. And the media can screw up an Acme Indestructible Steel Ball. I have

yet to see a 100% accurate newspaper report of anything I have ever done.

Once again, I used the newspaper article as a discussion point. I have no idea

whether the facts are even vaguely accurate.

6. What can be gained from this discussion? Well, first, it helps to stop

and read the criminal statutes on homicide and assault and think about how

your actions might fit into them. Second, know what acceptable methods of

patient control are, and PRACTICE THEM with your team members.

If you lack training in dealing with the combative patient, demand that you

get it. Also, I would remind you that police have a different agenda in

restraining a person from you. Sometimes police restraint is appropriate, but

in cases where the patient is being restrained for medical reasons, medical

restraint techniques should be used. Otherwise, you'll be asked why you chose

to use a restraint method that's not medically indicated.

Sometimes the lines are not clear, and I remind you to protect yourselves

first in all cases. If you become a casualty, you're no good to the team, and

it will take at least two team members to take care of you.

I hope this has caused some deep thinking about the consequences of what we

do.

Best,

Gene G.

>

> Remember, the media is basing their coverage on the plaintiff's  pleadings, 

> which by their very nature, seek to cast the defendants in  the worst light 

> possible.

>

> And I'd remind the list of the  difference between a civil lawsuit and 

> criminal charges.  The  plaintiff has no burden of proof to meet when 

> initially

> FILING a  lawsuit. A criminal complaint (whether an information or  grand

> jury 

> indictment) must be supported by a finding of probable cause. In   addition,

> the

> standard of proof between a civil case (preponderance of  the  evidence) and

> a

> criminal case (beyond a reasonable doubt) is  equally  large.

>

> In other words, what we have right now are  allegations. Only  allegations.

>

> -Wes Ogilvie, MPA, JD,  EMT

> Austin, Texas

>

>

> In a message dated 7/23/2005 11:20:10 PM Central Daylight Time, 

> wegandy1938@... writes:

>

> Please  read this article about a situation in Wisconsin where medics have

> been  sued for wrongful death in connection with their care of a  patient.

>

> http://www.gazetteextra.com/lawsuit072305.asp

>

> I'm  writing this from a Texas perspective, but many other states have

> similar 

> statutes.

>

> I think it's entirely possible that an aggressive  prosecutor could charge

> one

> or more of the medics involved in this case  with a degree of homicide or

> assault and battery.   (Texas does  not use the word battery.   It only uses

> assault.    Look at your own state's statutes.)

>

> If you practice in Texas, or even  if you don't, please go to Google.com and

> put in Texas Penal  Code.   Then look at the following sections:

>

> Sections 7.01,  02, and 03, deal with parties to a crime and accomplices.

>

> Look at  section 19.01, Criminal Homicide, 19.04, Manslaughter, and 19.05,

> Criminal  Negligence.

>

> Then go to section 22.01, assault, and section 22.02,  aggravated assault.

>

> If, after you read those sections, you don't think  that the folks involved

> in

> the Winconsin incident, if in Texas, could be  charged either with

> Manslaughter, Negligent Homicide, Assault, or  Aggravated Assault, then

> please let me

> know.

>

> Within the last  several years a physician in California has been charged

> with

> homicide in  the treatment of a patient.   He was exonerated by the jury, as

> I 

> recall, but damage was done.

>

> Questions to ask:   Will  your employer's liability insurance cover you if

> you're charged with a  criminal act in connection with patient treatment?  

> Will

> your  own liability insurance protect you?

>

> Can you afford to hire a competent  attorney to represent you if you're

> charged with a degree of homicide in  connection with treatment, or assault

> in case

> the patient  lives.   Remember that there is no statute of limitations on

> murder 

> or its lesser included offenses.

>

> Without passing judgment on the  medics involved in the incident AS REPORTED

> BY THE NEWSPAPER, whose  reporting I do in no way endorse, it seems to me

> that

> every medic ought to  think about the reported facts of this case and the

> legal

> implications of  the situation.

>

> An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of  cure.

>

> Gene G..

>

>

>

> E.(Gene) Gandy

> POB  1651

> Albany, TX  76430

> wegandy1938@...

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 7/24/2005 9:06:00 P.M. Central Daylight Time,

wegandy1938@... writes:

I hope this has caused some deep thinking about the consequences of what we

do.

That it has done in a few circles I run in. As usual Gene you stirred the

pot and that is a compliment!

Louis N. Molino, Sr., CET

FF/NREMT-B/FSI/EMSI

LNMolino@...

(IFW Office)

(Cell Phone)

(IFW Fax)

" A Texan with a Jersey Attitude "

The comments contained in this E-mail are the opinions of the author and the

author alone. I in no way ever intend to speak for any person or

organization that I am in any way whatsoever involved or associated with unless

I

specifically state that I am doing so. Further this E-mail is intended only for

its

stated recipient and may contain private and or confidential materials

retransmission is strictly prohibited unless placed in the public domain by the

original author.

[Guest guest]

Gene,

We have list members from many states. My favorite internet legal resource is

http://www.Jail.net From there you can get to the statutes of 41 different

states (including Texas) as well as many other documents. I start there every

time I am looking for something.

wegandy1938@... wrote:

Wes and others make some very good points.

Now that there has been plenty of commentary, let me offer some summary.

1. I put the scenario on here to get you thinking about the possibility of

criminal charges being filed against medics. The newspaper article was used

as the vehicle to get the discussion going. I believe I said (if I didn't, I

do now) that the article is to be taken at face value not for the truth of

the matters but as a starting point for the discussion.

2. Several have questioned the number of personnel onscene. As has

pointed out, an engine company and one ambulance could easily yield 5

paramedics. It is quite routine in urban systems that fire units be dispatched

along

with MICU. Also, in our service, sheriff's officers routinely show up since

they know that we often need help in lifting, getting the dogs and snakes

corralled, and so forth. So the number of responders is in no way unusual.

Your

service may only dispatch an ambulance with two responders. There are many

different response models in the US.

3. The article reflects that a civil suit has been filed in federal court.

Why federal court? Generally speaking you can only file in federal court

if there is a federal question or you have diversity of citizenship between

Plaintiff and Defendant. This case may be based upon the Civil Rights Act.

It's not apparent from the article.

4. Civil actions and criminal actions are entirely different animals. I

did not mean to imply that the defendants in this case would be charged

criminally. I only meant to get you thinking about the POSSIBILITY of such

charges

based upon actions of medics. And I only used as a reference point the Texas

Penal Code. Each state varies. It is highly unlikely that any sort of

federal criminal violation exists under the facts as reported unless it might be

a civil rights violation.

5. And the media can screw up an Acme Indestructible Steel Ball. I have

yet to see a 100% accurate newspaper report of anything I have ever done.

Once again, I used the newspaper article as a discussion point. I have no idea

whether the facts are even vaguely accurate.

6. What can be gained from this discussion? Well, first, it helps to stop

and read the criminal statutes on homicide and assault and think about how

your actions might fit into them. Second, know what acceptable methods of

patient control are, and PRACTICE THEM with your team members.

If you lack training in dealing with the combative patient, demand that you

get it. Also, I would remind you that police have a different agenda in

restraining a person from you. Sometimes police restraint is appropriate, but

in cases where the patient is being restrained for medical reasons, medical

restraint techniques should be used. Otherwise, you'll be asked why you chose

to use a restraint method that's not medically indicated.

Sometimes the lines are not clear, and I remind you to protect yourselves

first in all cases. If you become a casualty, you're no good to the team, and

it will take at least two team members to take care of you.

I hope this has caused some deep thinking about the consequences of what we

do.

Best,

Gene G.

>

> Remember, the media is basing their coverage on the plaintiff's pleadings,

> which by their very nature, seek to cast the defendants in the worst light

> possible.

>

> And I'd remind the list of the difference between a civil lawsuit and

> criminal charges. The plaintiff has no burden of proof to meet when

> initially

> FILING a lawsuit. A criminal complaint (whether an information or grand

> jury

> indictment) must be supported by a finding of probable cause. In addition,

> the

> standard of proof between a civil case (preponderance of the evidence) and

> a

> criminal case (beyond a reasonable doubt) is equally large.

>

> In other words, what we have right now are allegations. Only allegations.

>

> -Wes Ogilvie, MPA, JD, EMT

> Austin, Texas

>

>

> In a message dated 7/23/2005 11:20:10 PM Central Daylight Time,

> wegandy1938@... writes:

>

> Please read this article about a situation in Wisconsin where medics have

> been sued for wrongful death in connection with their care of a patient.

>

> http://www.gazetteextra.com/lawsuit072305.asp

>

> I'm writing this from a Texas perspective, but many other states have

> similar

> statutes.

>

> I think it's entirely possible that an aggressive prosecutor could charge

> one

> or more of the medics involved in this case with a degree of homicide or

> assault and battery. (Texas does not use the word battery. It only uses

> assault. Look at your own state's statutes.)

>

> If you practice in Texas, or even if you don't, please go to Google.com and

> put in Texas Penal Code. Then look at the following sections:

>

> Sections 7.01, 02, and 03, deal with parties to a crime and accomplices.

>

> Look at section 19.01, Criminal Homicide, 19.04, Manslaughter, and 19.05,

> Criminal Negligence.

>

> Then go to section 22.01, assault, and section 22.02, aggravated assault.

>

> If, after you read those sections, you don't think that the folks involved

> in

> the Winconsin incident, if in Texas, could be charged either with

> Manslaughter, Negligent Homicide, Assault, or Aggravated Assault, then

> please let me

> know.

>

> Within the last several years a physician in California has been charged

> with

> homicide in the treatment of a patient. He was exonerated by the jury, as

> I

> recall, but damage was done.

>

> Questions to ask: Will your employer's liability insurance cover you if

> you're charged with a criminal act in connection with patient treatment?

> Will

> your own liability insurance protect you?

>

> Can you afford to hire a competent attorney to represent you if you're

> charged with a degree of homicide in connection with treatment, or assault

> in case

> the patient lives. Remember that there is no statute of limitations on

> murder

> or its lesser included offenses.

>

> Without passing judgment on the medics involved in the incident AS REPORTED

> BY THE NEWSPAPER, whose reporting I do in no way endorse, it seems to me

> that

> every medic ought to think about the reported facts of this case and the

> legal

> implications of the situation.

>

> An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

>

> Gene G..

>

>

>

> E.(Gene) Gandy

> POB 1651

> Albany, TX 76430

> wegandy1938@...

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Gene,

I read that article. I don't even need to read the

criminal statues to know what they did was wrong. Why

in the world would anybody ever use a blanket over the

face and force someone down like that. If I have a

combative patient. Its time to back up and ask the

police (they know better than I) to subdue the person.

Then I can treat them as a person. I am appalled

that a paramedic would actually harm a patient that

had called for help.

Tom

--- wegandy1938@... wrote:

---------------------------------

Please read this article about a situation in

Wisconsin where medics have

been sued for wrongful death in connection with their

care of a patient.

http://www.gazetteextra.com/lawsuit072305.asp

I'm writing this from a Texas perspective, but many

other states have similar

statutes.

I think it's entirely possible that an aggressive

prosecutor could charge one

or more of the medics involved in this case with a

degree of homicide or

assault and battery. (Texas does not use the word

battery. It only uses

assault. Look at your own state's statutes.)

If you practice in Texas, or even if you don't, please

go to Google.com and

put in Texas Penal Code. Then look at the following

sections:

Sections 7.01, 02, and 03, deal with parties to a

crime and accomplices.

Look at section 19.01, Criminal Homicide, 19.04,

Manslaughter, and 19.05,

Criminal Negligence.

Then go to section 22.01, assault, and section 22.02,

aggravated assault.

If, after you read those sections, you don't think

that the folks involved in

the Winconsin incident, if in Texas, could be charged

either with

Manslaughter, Negligent Homicide, Assault, or

Aggravated Assault, then please let me

know.

Within the last several years a physician in

California has been charged with

homicide in the treatment of a patient. He was

exonerated by the jury, as I

recall, but damage was done.

Questions to ask: Will your employer's liability

insurance cover you if

you're charged with a criminal act in connection with

patient treatment? Will

your own liability insurance protect you?

Can you afford to hire a competent attorney to

represent you if you're

charged with a degree of homicide in connection with

treatment, or assault in case

the patient lives. Remember that there is no statute

of limitations on murder

or its lesser included offenses.

Without passing judgment on the medics involved in the

incident AS REPORTED

BY THE NEWSPAPER, whose reporting I do in no way

endorse, it seems to me that

every medic ought to think about the reported facts of

this case and the legal

implications of the situation.

An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

Gene G..

E.(Gene) Gandy

POB 1651

Albany, TX 76430

wegandy1938@...

[Guest guest]

Unless, of course, the police are dealing with the unruly family, who

are upset with you over your treatment, or lack thereof, and the

police are between them and you, blocking your exit from the room.

The patient is hypo-g, is big, and is kicking your arse. At that

point, you do whatever you must to protect yourself first, your

patient second, and during your struggle with him, the police's

struggle with the family and while waiting for backup, he dies as a

combination of his medical problems, the immediate stress of the

situation and struggle-induced hypoxia (and burning what little sugar

he had left, which really irritates the heart and brain).

Never say never.

Mike

> Gene,

> I read that article. I don't even need to read the

> criminal statues to know what they did was wrong. Why

> in the world would anybody ever use a blanket over the

> face and force someone down like that. If I have a

> combative patient. Its time to back up and ask the

> police (they know better than I) to subdue the person.

> Then I can treat them as a person. I am appalled

> that a paramedic would actually harm a patient that

> had called for help.

>

> Tom

>

> --- wegandy1938@... wrote:

>

>

> ---------------------------------

> Please read this article about a situation in

> Wisconsin where medics have

> been sued for wrongful death in connection with their

> care of a patient.

>

> http://www.gazetteextra.com/lawsuit072305.asp

>

> I'm writing this from a Texas perspective, but many

> other states have similar

> statutes.

>

> I think it's entirely possible that an aggressive

> prosecutor could charge one

> or more of the medics involved in this case with a

> degree of homicide or

> assault and battery. (Texas does not use the word

> battery. It only uses

> assault. Look at your own state's statutes.)

>

> If you practice in Texas, or even if you don't, please

> go to Google.com and

> put in Texas Penal Code. Then look at the following

> sections:

>

> Sections 7.01, 02, and 03, deal with parties to a

> crime and accomplices.

>

> Look at section 19.01, Criminal Homicide, 19.04,

> Manslaughter, and 19.05,

> Criminal Negligence.

>

> Then go to section 22.01, assault, and section 22.02,

> aggravated assault.

>

> If, after you read those sections, you don't think

> that the folks involved in

> the Winconsin incident, if in Texas, could be charged

> either with

> Manslaughter, Negligent Homicide, Assault, or

> Aggravated Assault, then please let me

> know.

>

> Within the last several years a physician in

> California has been charged with

> homicide in the treatment of a patient. He was

> exonerated by the jury, as I

> recall, but damage was done.

>

> Questions to ask: Will your employer's liability

> insurance cover you if

> you're charged with a criminal act in connection with

> patient treatment? Will

> your own liability insurance protect you?

>

> Can you afford to hire a competent attorney to

> represent you if you're

> charged with a degree of homicide in connection with

> treatment, or assault in case

> the patient lives. Remember that there is no statute

> of limitations on murder

> or its lesser included offenses.

>

> Without passing judgment on the medics involved in the

> incident AS REPORTED

> BY THE NEWSPAPER, whose reporting I do in no way

> endorse, it seems to me that

> every medic ought to think about the reported facts of

> this case and the legal

> implications of the situation.

>

> An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

>

> Gene G..

>

>

>

> E.(Gene) Gandy

> POB 1651

> Albany, TX 76430

> wegandy1938@...

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Tried and convicted in the court of public opinion, with the media

presenting only the evidence from an unverified set of allegations found in a

plaintiff's complaint/petition for lawsuit.

Heck, who needs courts anymore? We'll make high profile cases a reality TV

show on Fox and let people call in to vote guilty or not guilty...

-Wes

In a message dated 7/25/2005 9:49:53 PM Central Daylight Time,

THEDUDMAN@... writes:

See...this is what I like about this country...our forefathers set us up

with a great system that tells us all that we are guilty until proven innocent.

With the media system we have in this country, why do we actually need

courts anymore?

Dudley

-----Original Message-----

To:

Sent: Mon, 25 Jul 2005 11:24:03 -0700 (PDT)

Subject: Re: Could you be charged with murder?

Gene,

I read that article. I don't even need to read the

criminal statues to know what they did was wrong. Why

in the world would anybody ever use a blanket over the

face and force someone down like that. If I have a

combative patient. Its time to back up and ask the

police (they know better than I) to subdue the person.

Then I can treat them as a person. I am appalled

that a paramedic would actually harm a patient that

had called for help.

Tom

--- wegandy1938@... wrote:

---------------------------------

Please read this article about a situation in

Wisconsin where medics have

been sued for wrongful death in connection with their

care of a patient.

http://www.gazetteextra.com/lawsuit072305.asp

I'm writing this from a Texas perspective, but many

other states have similar

statutes.

I think it's entirely possible that an aggressive

prosecutor could charge one

or more of the medics involved in this case with a

degree of homicide or

assault and battery. (Texas does not use the word

battery. It only uses

assault. Look at your own state's statutes.)

If you practice in Texas, or even if you don't, please

go to Google.com and

put in Texas Penal Code. Then look at the following

sections:

Sections 7.01, 02, and 03, deal with parties to a

crime and accomplices.

Look at section 19.01, Criminal Homicide, 19.04,

Manslaughter, and 19.05,

Criminal Negligence.

Then go to section 22.01, assault, and section 22.02,

aggravated assault.

If, after you read those sections, you don't think

that the folks involved in

the Winconsin incident, if in Texas, could be charged

either with

Manslaughter, Negligent Homicide, Assault, or

Aggravated Assault, then please let me

know.

Within the last several years a physician in

California has been charged with

homicide in the treatment of a patient. He was

exonerated by the jury, as I

recall, but damage was done.

Questions to ask: Will your employer's liability

insurance cover you if

you're charged with a criminal act in connection with

patient treatment? Will

your own liability insurance protect you?

Can you afford to hire a competent attorney to

represent you if you're

charged with a degree of homicide in connection with

treatment, or assault in case

the patient lives. Remember that there is no statute

of limitations on murder

or its lesser included offenses.

Without passing judgment on the medics involved in the

incident AS REPORTED

BY THE NEWSPAPER, whose reporting I do in no way

endorse, it seems to me that

every medic ought to think about the reported facts of

this case and the legal

implications of the situation.

An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

Gene G..

E.(Gene) Gandy

POB 1651

Albany, TX 76430

wegandy1938@...

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

---------------------------------

YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS

Visit your group " " on the web.

[Guest guest]

,

Yep. I know about that. I just don't have time to research every state's

penal codes. I figure that those in other states have sense enough to do

that or else they wouldn't have sense enough to be on here. LOL.

After all, WE ARE THE ELITE are we not?

Please don't answer that.

GG

> Gene,

>

> We have list members from many states.  My favorite internet legal resource

> is http://www.Jail.net  From there you can get to the statutes of 41

> different states (including Texas) as well as many other documents.  I start

there

> every time I am looking for something.

>

>

>

>

>

> wegandy1938@... wrote:

> Wes and others make some very good points.

>

> Now that there has been plenty of commentary, let me offer some summary.

>

> 1.   I put the scenario on here to get you thinking about the possibility of

> criminal charges being filed against medics.   The newspaper article was

> used

> as the vehicle to get the discussion going.   I believe I said (if I didn't,

> I

> do now) that the article is to be taken at face value not for the truth of

> the matters but as a starting point for the discussion.

>

> 2.   Several have questioned the number of personnel onscene.   As

has

> pointed out, an engine company and one ambulance could easily yield 5

> paramedics.   It is quite routine in urban systems that fire units be

> dispatched along

> with MICU.   Also, in our service, sheriff's officers routinely show up

> since

> they know that we often need help in lifting, getting the dogs and snakes

> corralled, and so forth. So the number of responders is in no way unusual.  

> Your

> service may only dispatch an ambulance with two responders.   There are many

> different response models in the US.  

>

> 3.   The article reflects that a civil suit has been filed in federal

> court. 

> Why federal court?   Generally speaking you can only file in federal court

> if there is a federal question or you have diversity of citizenship between

> Plaintiff and Defendant.   This case may be based upon the Civil Rights

> Act.  

> It's not apparent from the article.

>

> 4.   Civil actions and criminal actions are entirely different animals.  

I

> did not mean to imply that the defendants in this case would be charged

> criminally.   I only meant to get you thinking about the POSSIBILITY of such

> charges

> based upon actions of medics.   And I only used as a reference point the

> Texas

> Penal Code.   Each state varies.   It is highly unlikely that any sort of

> federal criminal violation exists under the facts as reported unless it

> might be

> a civil rights violation.

>

> 5.   And the media can screw up an Acme Indestructible Steel Ball.   I

have

> yet to see a 100% accurate newspaper report of anything I have ever done.  

> Once again, I used the newspaper article as a discussion point.   I have no

> idea

> whether the facts are even vaguely accurate.

>

> 6.   What can be gained from this discussion?   Well, first, it helps to

> stop

> and read the criminal statutes on homicide and assault and think about how

> your actions might fit into them.   Second, know what acceptable methods of

> patient control are, and PRACTICE THEM with your team members.

>

> If you lack training in dealing with the combative patient, demand that you

> get it.   Also,   I would remind you that police have a different agenda

in

> restraining a person from you.   Sometimes police restraint is appropriate,

> but

> in cases where the patient is being restrained for medical reasons, medical

> restraint techniques should be used.   Otherwise, you'll be asked why you

> chose

> to use a restraint method that's not medically indicated.

>

> Sometimes the lines are not clear, and I remind you to protect yourselves

> first in all cases.   If you become a casualty, you're no good to the team,

> and

> it will take at least two team members to take care of you.  

>

> I hope this has caused some deep thinking about the consequences of what we

> do.

>

> Best,

>

> Gene G.

>

>

>

> >

> > Remember, the media is basing their coverage on the plaintiff's 

> pleadings,

> > which by their very nature, seek to cast the defendants in  the worst

> light

> > possible.

> >

> > And I'd remind the list of the  difference between a civil lawsuit and

> > criminal charges.  The  plaintiff has no burden of proof to meet when

> > initially

> > FILING a  lawsuit. A criminal complaint (whether an information or  grand

> > jury

> > indictment) must be supported by a finding of probable cause. In  

> addition,

> > the

> > standard of proof between a civil case (preponderance of  the  evidence)

> and

> > a

> > criminal case (beyond a reasonable doubt) is  equally  large.

> >

> > In other words, what we have right now are  allegations. Only 

> allegations.

> >

> > -Wes Ogilvie, MPA, JD,  EMT

> > Austin, Texas

> >

> >

> > In a message dated 7/23/2005 11:20:10 PM Central Daylight Time,

> > wegandy1938@... writes:

> >

> > Please  read this article about a situation in Wisconsin where medics have

> > been  sued for wrongful death in connection with their care of a  patient.

> >

> > http://www.gazetteextra.com/lawsuit072305.asp

> >

> > I'm  writing this from a Texas perspective, but many other states have

> > similar

> > statutes.

> >

> > I think it's entirely possible that an aggressive  prosecutor could charge

> > one

> > or more of the medics involved in this case  with a degree of homicide or

> > assault and battery.   (Texas does  not use the word battery.   It only

> uses

> > assault.    Look at your own state's statutes.)

> >

> > If you practice in Texas, or even  if you don't, please go to Google.com

> and

> > put in Texas Penal  Code.   Then look at the following sections:

> >

> > Sections 7.01,  02, and 03, deal with parties to a crime and accomplices.

> >

> > Look at  section 19.01, Criminal Homicide, 19.04, Manslaughter, and 19.05,

> > Criminal  Negligence.

> >

> > Then go to section 22.01, assault, and section 22.02,  aggravated assault.

> >

> > If, after you read those sections, you don't think  that the folks

> involved

> > in

> > the Winconsin incident, if in Texas, could be  charged either with

> > Manslaughter, Negligent Homicide, Assault, or  Aggravated Assault, then

> > please let me

> > know.

> >

> > Within the last  several years a physician in California has been charged

> > with

> > homicide in  the treatment of a patient.   He was exonerated by the jury,

> as

> > I

> > recall, but damage was done.

> >

> > Questions to ask:   Will  your employer's liability insurance cover you

if

> > you're charged with a  criminal act in connection with patient treatment? 

> > Will

> > your  own liability insurance protect you?

> >

> > Can you afford to hire a competent  attorney to represent you if you're

> > charged with a degree of homicide in  connection with treatment, or

> assault

> > in case

> > the patient  lives.   Remember that there is no statute of limitations on

> > murder

> > or its lesser included offenses.

> >

> > Without passing judgment on the  medics involved in the incident AS

> REPORTED

> > BY THE NEWSPAPER, whose  reporting I do in no way endorse, it seems to me

> > that

> > every medic ought to  think about the reported facts of this case and the

> > legal

> > implications of  the situation.

> >

> > An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of  cure.

> >

> > Gene G..

> >

> >

> >

> > E.(Gene) Gandy

> > POB  1651

> > Albany, TX  76430

> > wegandy1938@...

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

And so am I, IF IT IS TRUE.

One thing I have learned as a lawyer is that even after you've heard

everybody's version of what happened, you don't necessarily know the truth.

I would never rely on a new report from any newspaper, from the Honey Grove

Gazette to the New York Times, unless I were able to verify the accuracy of the

reports.

That said, ASSUMING that this is what happened, some people have either not

been properly trained and supervised, or they have " lost it " in the heat of

battle and done something that was very harmful.

I would not want to be the medical director of this service or its managers.

If the lawyers know what they're doing, they'll tear those people asunder

just as they will the onscene personnel.

Now, let me pose this: Assuming only for the sake of argument that the

facts as reported are essentially correct, do the medics need separate legal

representation from their service? Could one law firm effectively represent all

parties? What if the medics testify that they were never given any inservice

training about patient restraint, and there are no protocols that cover that.

Food for thought?

Gene

> Gene,

> I read that article.  I don't even need to read the

> criminal statues to know what they did was wrong.  Why

> in the world would anybody ever use a blanket over the

> face and force someone down like that.  If I have a

> combative patient.  Its time to back up and ask the

> police (they know better than I) to subdue the person.

> Then I can treat them as a person.  I am appalled

> that a paramedic would actually harm a patient that

> had called for help.

>

> Tom

>

> --- wegandy1938@... wrote:

>

>

> ---------------------------------

> Please read this article about a situation in

> Wisconsin where medics have

> been sued for wrongful death in connection with their

> care of a patient.

>

> http://www.gazetteextra.com/lawsuit072305.asp

>

> I'm writing this from a Texas perspective, but many

> other states have similar

> statutes.

>

> I think it's entirely possible that an aggressive

> prosecutor could charge one

> or more of the medics involved in this case with a

> degree of homicide or

> assault and battery.   (Texas does not use the word

> battery.   It only uses

> assault.   Look at your own state's statutes.)

>

> If you practice in Texas, or even if you don't, please

> go to Google.com and

> put in Texas Penal Code.   Then look at the following

> sections:

>

> Sections 7.01, 02, and 03, deal with parties to a

> crime and accomplices.

>

> Look at section 19.01, Criminal Homicide, 19.04,

> Manslaughter, and 19.05,

> Criminal Negligence.

>

> Then go to section 22.01, assault, and section 22.02,

> aggravated assault.

>

> If, after you read those sections, you don't think

> that the folks involved in

> the Winconsin incident, if in Texas, could be charged

> either with

> Manslaughter, Negligent Homicide, Assault, or

> Aggravated Assault, then please let me

> know.

>

> Within the last several years a physician in

> California has been charged with

> homicide in the treatment of a patient.   He was

> exonerated by the jury, as I

> recall, but damage was done.

>

> Questions to ask:   Will your employer's liability

> insurance cover you if

> you're charged with a criminal act in connection with

> patient treatment?   Will

> your own liability insurance protect you?

>

> Can you afford to hire a competent attorney to

> represent you if you're

> charged with a degree of homicide in connection with

> treatment, or assault in case

> the patient lives.   Remember that there is no statute

> of limitations on murder

> or its lesser included offenses.

>

> Without passing judgment on the medics involved in the

> incident AS REPORTED

> BY THE NEWSPAPER, whose reporting I do in no way

> endorse, it seems to me that

> every medic ought to think about the reported facts of

> this case and the legal

> implications of the situation.

>

> An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

>

> Gene G..

>

>

>

> E.(Gene) Gandy

> POB 1651

> Albany, TX 76430

> wegandy1938@...

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

, with all due respect, there is no Kindleton County in Texas.

-Wes

In a message dated 7/26/2005 12:05:32 AM Central Daylight Time,

charleswblum@... writes:

I remember being pulled over in Kindelton County, TX, for speeding

90 in a 65 (I was going 75 in a 65), written a speeding ticket, and

then asked if I wanted to take care of it by cash, check, or credit

card right there. He said my other option was to follow him to his

cousins, the JP, office for arraignment and to enter a guilty plea,

and if I couldn't pay the ticket in full then I would be held until

I could raise the money. I promptly handed him my Visa card, and he

puplled out one of old impression machines and suction cupped it to

his hood, made an impressiom of my card, filled im the amount, and

had me sign it. The transaction showed up on my next bill with the

JP's personal name on it, but the ticket never showed up on my

record. I wasn't going to bitch, bit I still to this day avoid

Kindleton County at all cost.

Southern Justice with a Smile and No " KY " ,

--- In , " Wallace Blum, EMT-

Paramedic " <charleswblum@s...> wrote:

> I want to know what happened to road-side hangings for driving

> stupid?

>

> >8-)

>

>

> >

> >

> > ---------------------------------

> > Please read this article about a situation in

> > Wisconsin where medics have

> > been sued for wrongful death in connection with their

> > care of a patient.

> >

> > http://www.gazetteextra.com/lawsuit072305.asp

> >

> > I'm writing this from a Texas perspective, but many

> > other states have similar

> > statutes.

> >

> > I think it's entirely possible that an aggressive

> > prosecutor could charge one

> > or more of the medics involved in this case with a

> > degree of homicide or

> > assault and battery. (Texas does not use the word

> > battery. It only uses

> > assault. Look at your own state's statutes.)

> >

> > If you practice in Texas, or even if you don't, please

> > go to Google.com and

> > put in Texas Penal Code. Then look at the following

> > sections:

> >

> > Sections 7.01, 02, and 03, deal with parties to a

> > crime and accomplices.

> >

> > Look at section 19.01, Criminal Homicide, 19.04,

> > Manslaughter, and 19.05,

> > Criminal Negligence.

> >

> > Then go to section 22.01, assault, and section 22.02,

> > aggravated assault.

> >

> > If, after you read those sections, you don't think

> > that the folks involved in

> > the Winconsin incident, if in Texas, could be charged

> > either with

> > Manslaughter, Negligent Homicide, Assault, or

> > Aggravated Assault, then please let me

> > know.

> >

> > Within the last several years a physician in

> > California has been charged with

> > homicide in the treatment of a patient. He was

> > exonerated by the jury, as I

> > recall, but damage was done.

> >

> > Questions to ask: Will your employer's liability

> > insurance cover you if

> > you're charged with a criminal act in connection with

> > patient treatment? Will

> > your own liability insurance protect you?

> >

> > Can you afford to hire a competent attorney to

> > represent you if you're

> > charged with a degree of homicide in connection with

> > treatment, or assault in case

> > the patient lives. Remember that there is no statute

> > of limitations on murder

> > or its lesser included offenses.

> >

> > Without passing judgment on the medics involved in the

> > incident AS REPORTED

> > BY THE NEWSPAPER, whose reporting I do in no way

> > endorse, it seems to me that

> > every medic ought to think about the reported facts of

> > this case and the legal

> > implications of the situation.

> >

> > An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

> >

> > Gene G..

> >

> >

> >

> > E.(Gene) Gandy

> > POB 1651

> > Albany, TX 76430

> > wegandy1938@a...

> >

> >

> >

> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> >

> >

> >

> > ---------------------------------

> > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS

> >

> >

> > Visit your group " " on the web.

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

That I can believe -- I think the Comptroller ended up shutting down their

city finances a few years ago when they started limiting how much city revenue

could come from tickets.

-Wes

In a message dated 7/26/2005 12:14:34 AM Central Daylight Time,

charleswblum@... writes:

My bad Wes, I meant Kendleton in Fort Bend County........My bad!

This was in the late 80's to early 90's.

> > >

> > >

> > > ---------------------------------

> > > Please read this article about a situation in

> > > Wisconsin where medics have

> > > been sued for wrongful death in connection with their

> > > care of a patient.

> > >

> > > http://www.gazetteextra.com/lawsuit072305.asp

> > >

> > > I'm writing this from a Texas perspective, but many

> > > other states have similar

> > > statutes.

> > >

> > > I think it's entirely possible that an aggressive

> > > prosecutor could charge one

> > > or more of the medics involved in this case with a

> > > degree of homicide or

> > > assault and battery. (Texas does not use the word

> > > battery. It only uses

> > > assault. Look at your own state's statutes.)

> > >

> > > If you practice in Texas, or even if you don't, please

> > > go to Google.com and

> > > put in Texas Penal Code. Then look at the following

> > > sections:

> > >

> > > Sections 7.01, 02, and 03, deal with parties to a

> > > crime and accomplices.

> > >

> > > Look at section 19.01, Criminal Homicide, 19.04,

> > > Manslaughter, and 19.05,

> > > Criminal Negligence.

> > >

> > > Then go to section 22.01, assault, and section 22.02,

> > > aggravated assault.

> > >

> > > If, after you read those sections, you don't think

> > > that the folks involved in

> > > the Winconsin incident, if in Texas, could be charged

> > > either with

> > > Manslaughter, Negligent Homicide, Assault, or

> > > Aggravated Assault, then please let me

> > > know.

> > >

> > > Within the last several years a physician in

> > > California has been charged with

> > > homicide in the treatment of a patient. He was

> > > exonerated by the jury, as I

> > > recall, but damage was done.

> > >

> > > Questions to ask: Will your employer's liability

> > > insurance cover you if

> > > you're charged with a criminal act in connection with

> > > patient treatment? Will

> > > your own liability insurance protect you?

> > >

> > > Can you afford to hire a competent attorney to

> > > represent you if you're

> > > charged with a degree of homicide in connection with

> > > treatment, or assault in case

> > > the patient lives. Remember that there is no statute

> > > of limitations on murder

> > > or its lesser included offenses.

> > >

> > > Without passing judgment on the medics involved in the

> > > incident AS REPORTED

> > > BY THE NEWSPAPER, whose reporting I do in no way

> > > endorse, it seems to me that

> > > every medic ought to think about the reported facts of

> > > this case and the legal

> > > implications of the situation.

> > >

> > > An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

> > >

> > > Gene G..

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > E.(Gene) Gandy

> > > POB 1651

> > > Albany, TX 76430

> > > wegandy1938@a...

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > ---------------------------------

> > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS

> > >

> > >

> > > Visit your group " " on the web.

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

See...this is what I like about this country...our forefathers set us up with a

great system that tells us all that we are guilty until proven innocent.

With the media system we have in this country, why do we actually need courts

anymore?

Dudley

Re: Could you be charged with murder?

Gene,

I read that article. I don't even need to read the

criminal statues to know what they did was wrong. Why

in the world would anybody ever use a blanket over the

face and force someone down like that. If I have a

combative patient. Its time to back up and ask the

police (they know better than I) to subdue the person.

Then I can treat them as a person. I am appalled

that a paramedic would actually harm a patient that

had called for help.

Tom

--- wegandy1938@... wrote:

---------------------------------

Please read this article about a situation in

Wisconsin where medics have

been sued for wrongful death in connection with their

care of a patient.

http://www.gazetteextra.com/lawsuit072305.asp

I'm writing this from a Texas perspective, but many

other states have similar

statutes.

I think it's entirely possible that an aggressive

prosecutor could charge one

or more of the medics involved in this case with a

degree of homicide or

assault and battery. (Texas does not use the word

battery. It only uses

assault. Look at your own state's statutes.)

If you practice in Texas, or even if you don't, please

go to Google.com and

put in Texas Penal Code. Then look at the following

sections:

Sections 7.01, 02, and 03, deal with parties to a

crime and accomplices.

Look at section 19.01, Criminal Homicide, 19.04,

Manslaughter, and 19.05,

Criminal Negligence.

Then go to section 22.01, assault, and section 22.02,

aggravated assault.

If, after you read those sections, you don't think

that the folks involved in

the Winconsin incident, if in Texas, could be charged

either with

Manslaughter, Negligent Homicide, Assault, or

Aggravated Assault, then please let me

know.

Within the last several years a physician in

California has been charged with

homicide in the treatment of a patient. He was

exonerated by the jury, as I

recall, but damage was done.

Questions to ask: Will your employer's liability

insurance cover you if

you're charged with a criminal act in connection with

patient treatment? Will

your own liability insurance protect you?

Can you afford to hire a competent attorney to

represent you if you're

charged with a degree of homicide in connection with

treatment, or assault in case

the patient lives. Remember that there is no statute

of limitations on murder

or its lesser included offenses.

Without passing judgment on the medics involved in the

incident AS REPORTED

BY THE NEWSPAPER, whose reporting I do in no way

endorse, it seems to me that

every medic ought to think about the reported facts of

this case and the legal

implications of the situation.

An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

Gene G..

E.(Gene) Gandy

POB 1651

Albany, TX 76430

wegandy1938@...

[Guest guest]

One more piece on this...am I the only medic on this list who has had a patient

who has changed their story upon arrival at the ED or told me something

different than they told PD...yet we read this on-line, from an unknown newpaper

and we instantly hang our comrades...hmmm.

Dudley

Re: Could you be charged with murder?

Gene,

I read that article. I don't even need to read the

criminal statues to know what they did was wrong. Why

in the world would anybody ever use a blanket over the

face and force someone down like that. If I have a

combative patient. Its time to back up and ask the

police (they know better than I) to subdue the person.

Then I can treat them as a person. I am appalled

that a paramedic would actually harm a patient that

had called for help.

Tom

--- wegandy1938@... wrote:

---------------------------------

Please read this article about a situation in

Wisconsin where medics have

been sued for wrongful death in connection with their

care of a patient.

http://www.gazetteextra.com/lawsuit072305.asp

I'm writing this from a Texas perspective, but many

other states have similar

statutes.

I think it's entirely possible that an aggressive

prosecutor could charge one

or more of the medics involved in this case with a

degree of homicide or

assault and battery. (Texas does not use the word

battery. It only uses

assault. Look at your own state's statutes.)

If you practice in Texas, or even if you don't, please

go to Google.com and

put in Texas Penal Code. Then look at the following

sections:

Sections 7.01, 02, and 03, deal with parties to a

crime and accomplices.

Look at section 19.01, Criminal Homicide, 19.04,

Manslaughter, and 19.05,

Criminal Negligence.

Then go to section 22.01, assault, and section 22.02,

aggravated assault.

If, after you read those sections, you don't think

that the folks involved in

the Winconsin incident, if in Texas, could be charged

either with

Manslaughter, Negligent Homicide, Assault, or

Aggravated Assault, then please let me

know.

Within the last several years a physician in

California has been charged with

homicide in the treatment of a patient. He was

exonerated by the jury, as I

recall, but damage was done.

Questions to ask: Will your employer's liability

insurance cover you if

you're charged with a criminal act in connection with

patient treatment? Will

your own liability insurance protect you?

Can you afford to hire a competent attorney to

represent you if you're

charged with a degree of homicide in connection with

treatment, or assault in case

the patient lives. Remember that there is no statute

of limitations on murder

or its lesser included offenses.

Without passing judgment on the medics involved in the

incident AS REPORTED

BY THE NEWSPAPER, whose reporting I do in no way

endorse, it seems to me that

every medic ought to think about the reported facts of

this case and the legal

implications of the situation.

An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

Gene G..

E.(Gene) Gandy

POB 1651

Albany, TX 76430

wegandy1938@...