breathing

September 26, 2010

Lynda - Absolutely, the grocery store is the new mom's best retreat (and excuse

- after all, everybody's gotta have groceries). When my son was born, I went

back to a pretty stressful job rather quickly, and to add to the stress, my

mother had moved in to be the " granny nanny " (Yes, I know. Bad plan. I could

go on for hours about THAT episode.) So I " had to " make a big weekly grocery

run on Sundays. Sometimes it lasted for HOURS. My husband and mother kept

volunteering to come along and help, but I always graciously told them to enjoy

their Sunday afternoon, I'd go to the store ALONE. It was fairly quiet, the

floors were pretty clean, the place was orderly, and if anybody threw up or

needed a diaper change, it wasn't my problem.

And GS - try this - my husband is a snorer, and even with an apnea machine he

still is a noisy sleeper. When the hot flashes started, I put a fan next to my

bed. I've found that it not only keeps me cool, it drowns out his snorting and

snuffling with a kind of white noise. Now we can BOTH sleep.

> > >

> > > This may be the weirdest thing I have ever admitted

> > >

> > > but I believe i was conditioned to pay attention to the sounds of another

> > > person's breathing (well one person - nada's) and respond. So if she made

> > > angry noises, i knew I had done something wrong. If she sighed she needed

> > > comfort. If she grunted, she wanted another coke etc I could go on and on.

I

> > > think it is so interesting that she didn' t choose to use her words. What,

> > > is she 2? Ha ha

> > >

> > > So now, I find there are times when I HAVE to get into a place where I

can't

> > > hear anyone else breathing. My dogs are okay to be around, they don't make

> > > demands on me like she did. But I just can't handle the weight of having

to

> > > pay attention. Esp after 8-12 hours at work where I can hear MANY people

> > > breathing around me.

> > >

> > > So last night boyfriend and I got in a fight because I retreated to my

bed,

> > > wanting to be alone. And he came and laid there and BREATHED for a good

> > > hour, despite my asking over and over for him to go lay on the couch. He

> > > also wouldn't LET me go lay on the couch.

> > >

> > > He wants together time all the time! I want alone time when I first wake

up

> > > and before I go to sleep. And honestly, sometimes I go in the bathroom for

> > > 2-3 min of aloneness.

> > >

> > > So I have no doubt that boyfriend and I can work through it, though when I

> > > try to explain that I don't want to hear anyone breathing or feel their

> > > vibes he feels insulted. he also has a private office and works with

> > > headphones on all day. I am on the phone, with people in my face, or out

in

> > > the community organizing events - so I don't get alone time/concentration

> > > time during the day like he does.

> > >

> > > Also, I am an extrovert and I love to socialize. But good god, sometimes I

> > > want to be alone, and not worring about anyone but myself for a minute.

> > >

> > > I'm like dude this is a KO thing.It may take a while for him to

understand.

> > >

> > > Anyone else? Anyone? Anyone? Any tips for unconditioning yourself to

listen

> > > to breathing like that?

> > >

September 28, 2010

Hi

My two cents.

Yes - alone time is so essential. Don't feel at all wrong for asking for it. In

my opinion, it's wrong of others to deny it to us. I had a bad relationship

once, it started out great, we were engaged, but it ended in a restraining

order. In retrospect there were obvious hints. One of them was his refusal to

let me be alone when I wanted to be alone. Not to say it's the same for you,

just a thought.

I always needed a room of my own, a study or something that was just MINE and I

could close and lock the door. I told my therapist this, and she pointed out

that it was because of my childhood. As a child I hid in bathrooms and closets.

As I get older and heal, I am finally able to live with a spouse and kid and not

have my own room without going batty. But I still sometimes go sleep on the

couch. And that's OK.

Just so you don't feel bad - the thing I can't stand is the sound of other

people eating crunchy food. Carrots, potato chips etc... it's like fingernails

on a chalkboard to me, I can't stand it (and I have NO idea why.) I try to be

unobtrusive about it. Most people don't notice, but my spouse and I have had to

work this out with many many discussions. I just end up with hey - I know it's

strange and I'm really sorry, but since you care about me you'll work with me on

a way we can live together with my strange quirk ok? It's ok to have crunchy

food in the house, I just need to be in another room when they're being eaten.

Good luck

-Terri

September 28, 2010

Wow, I have that problem too! And I mostly only noticed it and it bothered me

with my nada!! She eats rather loudly, chews loudly, smacks her lips, etc., and

that used to just set my nerves on edge until I wanted to scream or bolt out of

the room.

I used to insist on having music with dinner or eating with the TV on to help

disguise the disgusting sound of her crunching her food, when we'd visit each

other.

I guess when I eat with other people, its noisier all round. Lots of

conversations going on, music, and restaurants usually have some ambient

background noise. But when its just two people in a quiet room, I guess the

sounds of the slurping and chewing and crunching are simply more clearly

audible.

Maybe this is similar to the sound of someone breathing being a problem for some

of us. I know I can't sleep at all if someone is in the bed with me or even in

the same room, who is snoring. Its like torture. I've tried earplugs and white

noise but snoring is just so... penetrating.

Do you suppose an intolerance for *noises* has something to do with post

traumatic stress disorder?

-Annie

>

> Hi

>

> My two cents.

>

> Yes - alone time is so essential. Don't feel at all wrong for asking for it.

In my opinion, it's wrong of others to deny it to us. I had a bad relationship

once, it started out great, we were engaged, but it ended in a restraining

order. In retrospect there were obvious hints. One of them was his refusal to

let me be alone when I wanted to be alone. Not to say it's the same for you,

just a thought.

>

> I always needed a room of my own, a study or something that was just MINE and

I could close and lock the door. I told my therapist this, and she pointed out

that it was because of my childhood. As a child I hid in bathrooms and closets.

As I get older and heal, I am finally able to live with a spouse and kid and not

have my own room without going batty. But I still sometimes go sleep on the

couch. And that's OK.

>

> Just so you don't feel bad - the thing I can't stand is the sound of other

people eating crunchy food. Carrots, potato chips etc... it's like fingernails

on a chalkboard to me, I can't stand it (and I have NO idea why.) I try to be

unobtrusive about it. Most people don't notice, but my spouse and I have had to

work this out with many many discussions. I just end up with hey - I know it's

strange and I'm really sorry, but since you care about me you'll work with me on

a way we can live together with my strange quirk ok? It's ok to have crunchy

food in the house, I just need to be in another room when they're being eaten.

>

> Good luck

>

> -Terri

>

September 28, 2010

I totally have intolerance for noise, smells, just generally too much

stimulation. I need a quiet, peaceful life to function. . . Weirdness.

On Tue, Sep 28, 2010 at 10:18 AM, anuria67854 wrote:

>

> Wow, I have that problem too! And I mostly only noticed it and it bothered

> me with my nada!! She eats rather loudly, chews loudly, smacks her lips,

> etc., and that used to just set my nerves on edge until I wanted to scream

> or bolt out of the room.

>

> I used to insist on having music with dinner or eating with the TV on to

> help disguise the disgusting sound of her crunching her food, when we'd

> visit each other.

>

> I guess when I eat with other people, its noisier all round. Lots of

> conversations going on, music, and restaurants usually have some ambient

> background noise. But when its just two people in a quiet room, I guess the

> sounds of the slurping and chewing and crunching are simply more clearly

> audible.

>

> Maybe this is similar to the sound of someone breathing being a problem for

> some of us. I know I can't sleep at all if someone is in the bed with me or

> even in the same room, who is snoring. Its like torture. I've tried earplugs

> and white noise but snoring is just so... penetrating.

>

> Do you suppose an intolerance for *noises* has something to do with post

> traumatic stress disorder?

>

> -Annie

>

> >

> > Hi

> >

> > My two cents.

> >

> > Yes - alone time is so essential. Don't feel at all wrong for asking for

> it. In my opinion, it's wrong of others to deny it to us. I had a bad

> relationship once, it started out great, we were engaged, but it ended in a

> restraining order. In retrospect there were obvious hints. One of them was

> his refusal to let me be alone when I wanted to be alone. Not to say it's

> the same for you, just a thought.

> >

> > I always needed a room of my own, a study or something that was just MINE

> and I could close and lock the door. I told my therapist this, and she

> pointed out that it was because of my childhood. As a child I hid in

> bathrooms and closets. As I get older and heal, I am finally able to live

> with a spouse and kid and not have my own room without going batty. But I

> still sometimes go sleep on the couch. And that's OK.

> >

> > Just so you don't feel bad - the thing I can't stand is the sound of

> other people eating crunchy food. Carrots, potato chips etc... it's like

> fingernails on a chalkboard to me, I can't stand it (and I have NO idea

> why.) I try to be unobtrusive about it. Most people don't notice, but my

> spouse and I have had to work this out with many many discussions. I just

> end up with hey - I know it's strange and I'm really sorry, but since you

> care about me you'll work with me on a way we can live together with my

> strange quirk ok? It's ok to have crunchy food in the house, I just need to

> be in another room when they're being eaten.

> >

> > Good luck

> >

> > -Terri

> >

>

September 28, 2010

>

> I totally have intolerance for noise, smells, just generally too much

> stimulation. I need a quiet, peaceful life to function. . . Weirdness.

>

the WORST noise in the world - is my mothers voice when she is talking without

her teeth in. It used to make my skin crawl as a kid, and Id just want to

scream. If she was raging at me, her face getting very close to mine, the sight,

the smell, the noise of her lispy, teethless voice would make me close my eyes

and pray for it all to be over, or if I was brave enough - Id have to push her

away. Getting slapped around was better than having that in my face.

UUuuuughh, I dont think I can eat lunch now...

September 29, 2010

> Do you suppose an intolerance for *noises* has something to do with post

traumatic stress disorder?

>

> -Annie

ABSOLUTELY, Annie. I'm so the same way about noises. Political arguments are a

bigtime trigger for me, because they were what set off stepnada to do her worst.

I would shrink into the couch in the next room hoping she wouldn't notice me in

her rages, the whole time saying the serenity prayer as I felt the solid ground

of reality eroding away underneath.

These days, peacefully NC, I do notice that to a lesser degree, when my kids

argue it really freaks me out. I can't take it. I don't rage at them but I do

react quickly to get them to stop yelling first, then make peace and mend their

relationship with each other (say you're sorry, forgive your sister, ok now hug,

and how can you make it up to each other?).

BIGTIME big deal, noises.

Tina

October 1, 2010

thank you - wonderful tip. I will look into it! XOXO

On Thu, Sep 23, 2010 at 11:54 PM, climberkayak wrote:

>

> Hi Girlscout, have you ever identified with the empath description? Judith

> Orloff has some books and articles on the web about how someone who feels

> others vibes strongly needs space and alone time built into a relationship.

> I've found her views really helpful and validating. I too am very

> extroverted with people I know casually, but much more cautious about

> letting people be close because they can overwhelm me.

>

> I think these nadas with their craziness may amplify natural empathy that

> exists in KO's. I mean it's self-defense! If you can tell by a her

> breathing, minute expressions, tone, silences, " energy " whether she is safe

> to be around or whether to brace for trouble it's valuable as a kid. We

> couldn't afford to be oblivious.

>

> Your boyfriend needs to recognize your needs and honor them. The balance of

> time spent together and space are so important to work out for the

> long-term.

>

> >

> > This may be the weirdest thing I have ever admitted

> >

> > but I believe i was conditioned to pay attention to the sounds of another

> > person's breathing (well one person - nada's) and respond. So if she made

> > angry noises, i knew I had done something wrong. If she sighed she needed

> > comfort. If she grunted, she wanted another coke etc I could go on and

> on. I

> > think it is so interesting that she didn' t choose to use her words.

> What,

> > is she 2? Ha ha

> >

> > So now, I find there are times when I HAVE to get into a place where I

> can't

> > hear anyone else breathing. My dogs are okay to be around, they don't

> make

> > demands on me like she did. But I just can't handle the weight of having

> to

> > pay attention. Esp after 8-12 hours at work where I can hear MANY people

> > breathing around me.

> >

> > So last night boyfriend and I got in a fight because I retreated to my

> bed,

> > wanting to be alone. And he came and laid there and BREATHED for a good

> > hour, despite my asking over and over for him to go lay on the couch. He

> > also wouldn't LET me go lay on the couch.

> >

> > He wants together time all the time! I want alone time when I first wake

> up

> > and before I go to sleep. And honestly, sometimes I go in the bathroom

> for

> > 2-3 min of aloneness.

> >

> > So I have no doubt that boyfriend and I can work through it, though when

> I

> > try to explain that I don't want to hear anyone breathing or feel their

> > vibes he feels insulted. he also has a private office and works with

> > headphones on all day. I am on the phone, with people in my face, or out

> in

> > the community organizing events - so I don't get alone time/concentration

> > time during the day like he does.

> >

> > Also, I am an extrovert and I love to socialize. But good god, sometimes

> I

> > want to be alone, and not worring about anyone but myself for a minute.

> >

> > I'm like dude this is a KO thing.It may take a while for him to

> understand.

> >

> > Anyone else? Anyone? Anyone? Any tips for unconditioning yourself to

> listen

> > to breathing like that?

> >

October 2, 2010

,this was on the subject of my post that disappeared into the cyber

ether--I wouldn't wish this on innocent animals either but when you mentioned

this " parenting test " earlier I thought of how my nada and fada had had a pet

rabbit the year before I was born.

They got a rabbit when they really wanted a dog because they thought

a rabbit would be easier to take care of.They ended up giving the rabbit to

someone else because it kept pooping in fada's shoes even though they put

newspaper down next to his shoes as if the rabbit was a puppy they could paper

train.Instead of buying or building a hutch for the rabbit,they let it roam

freely in their apartment and then they couldn't understand why it pooped

whenever and wherever it wanted to.

Mmmm...because that's what rabbits do?

For them,the rabbit was supposed to be a sort of " replacement puppy " and

because that is what they wanted it to be,when the rabbit didn't live up to its

end of the bargain by acting like a dog and pooping on the provided

newspaper,they discarded him.

This might have been an indication of what they expected a baby to

be: what *they* wanted rather than who/what a baby actually is.They were very

disappointed with me,too,when I couldn't live up to

being the " replacement parent " they wanted to make them feel special and loved.

>

> Not that I would wish this on innocent animals, but it would be a great test

of a future parent to see how well they care for a pet. I've seen my nada's

dysfunction and that of other FOO show very clearly in how they relate to their

animals. One of the most telling signs I see is that they project negative

human emotions onto the pet - the cat is rejecting me, the cat is angry at me,

the cat wants to control me, the cat thinks it is superior to me (ok well some

do!). It's like they get into an ego battle with small furry creature or see

it as there to meet their needs not a living being they are responsible to

nurture and protect. Same thing happens once they've got a baby.

>

October 2, 2010

ha ha ha pooping in fada's shoes! Yay bunny!!! Yay!!! Bravo!!!!!

On Sat, Oct 2, 2010 at 2:48 PM, christine.depizan <

christine.depizan@...> wrote:

>

> ,this was on the subject of my post that disappeared into the cyber

> ether--I wouldn't wish this on innocent animals either but when you

> mentioned this " parenting test " earlier I thought of how my nada and fada

> had had a pet rabbit the year before I was born.

>

> They got a rabbit when they really wanted a dog because they thought a

> rabbit would be easier to take care of.They ended up giving the rabbit to

> someone else because it kept pooping in fada's shoes even though they put

> newspaper down next to his shoes as if the rabbit was a puppy they could

> paper train.Instead of buying or building a hutch for the rabbit,they let it

> roam freely in their apartment and then they couldn't understand why it

> pooped whenever and wherever it wanted to.

>

> Mmmm...because that's what rabbits do?

>

> For them,the rabbit was supposed to be a sort of " replacement puppy " and

> because that is what they wanted it to be,when the rabbit didn't live up to

> its end of the bargain by acting like a dog and pooping on the provided

> newspaper,they discarded him.

>

> This might have been an indication of what they expected a baby to be: what

> *they* wanted rather than who/what a baby actually is.They were very

> disappointed with me,too,when I couldn't live up to

> being the " replacement parent " they wanted to make them feel special and

> loved.

>

> >

> > Not that I would wish this on innocent animals, but it would be a great

> test of a future parent to see how well they care for a pet. I've seen my

> nada's dysfunction and that of other FOO show very clearly in how they

> relate to their animals. One of the most telling signs I see is that they

> project negative human emotions onto the pet - the cat is rejecting me, the

> cat is angry at me, the cat wants to control me, the cat thinks it is

> superior to me (ok well some do!). It's like they get into an ego battle

> with small furry creature or see it as there to meet their needs not a

> living being they are responsible to nurture and protect. Same thing happens

> once they've got a baby.

> >

>

October 2, 2010

I dunno, I may have to disagree with the animal thing. In veterinary seminars

we have a management expert, McVey, who talks about how a LOT of animal

people are socially maladjusted and even PD-ish. They couldn't manage

relationships with people so they became potty over animals. Then they go to

work in an animal hospital and they can't get along with the other people there.

This is the way my nada was. Really, really, really, really bonded with the

cats in our lives. And one of her stated reasons was the cats loved her no

matter what. Well, no shit, an animal's needs are a lot simpler than a

person's! They can't even speak English. One of the things she used to do was

turn directly around from screaming at me or hitting me with the flyswatter

because, say, I didn't want to run the vacuum when she wanted me to, and pick up

the cat and be all loving to him as if to say, " I love this cat a whole lot more

than you. "

She also used to let my bother, oops, I mean brother, pick on me and pick on me

and pick on me. I mean things like waving his hands in my face constantly,

tickling me, picking and poking at me, taking his shoe off and waving his foot

under my nose, on and on and on. When I didn't like this, I was a

" touch-me-don't, " and supposed to be understanding of him because I was older

and he was little. Meanwhile, when the kids on the school bus hit, picked,

poked, and threw gum in my hair, she would at least try to intervene. So why

was Little Bother allowed to behave just like them? And he would milk it for

all it was worth. He knew just how to get Sister in trouble and then sit back

and laugh.

One day when I was about 12 it suddenly occurred to me that if I were the cat,

she would *never* allow him to act like that. The cat actually got treated a

lot better than I did.

So the animal test may work with some nadas, but not all.

--.

October 3, 2010

Yeah, , I know what you mean. I also think some nadas (like mine) go to

work with little children, perhaps disabled children because they can feel

the authority, feel in control, not feel challenged, and NO ONE SUPERVISES

THEM!!! WOW!!! Upsetting.

>

> I dunno, I may have to disagree with the animal thing. In veterinary

> seminars we have a management expert, McVey, who talks about how a LOT

> of animal people are socially maladjusted and even PD-ish. They couldn't

> manage relationships with people so they became potty over animals. Then

> they go to work in an animal hospital and they can't get along with the

> other people there.

>

> This is the way my nada was. Really, really, really, really bonded with the

> cats in our lives. And one of her stated reasons was the cats loved her no

> matter what. Well, no shit, an animal's needs are a lot simpler than a

> person's! They can't even speak English. One of the things she used to do

> was turn directly around from screaming at me or hitting me with the

> flyswatter because, say, I didn't want to run the vacuum when she wanted me

> to, and pick up the cat and be all loving to him as if to say, " I love this

> cat a whole lot more than you. "

>

> She also used to let my bother, oops, I mean brother, pick on me and pick

> on me and pick on me. I mean things like waving his hands in my face

> constantly, tickling me, picking and poking at me, taking his shoe off and

> waving his foot under my nose, on and on and on. When I didn't like this, I

> was a " touch-me-don't, " and supposed to be understanding of him because I

> was older and he was little. Meanwhile, when the kids on the school bus hit,

> picked, poked, and threw gum in my hair, she would at least try to

> intervene. So why was Little Bother allowed to behave just like them? And he

> would milk it for all it was worth. He knew just how to get Sister in

> trouble and then sit back and laugh.

>

> One day when I was about 12 it suddenly occurred to me that if I were the

> cat, she would *never* allow him to act like that. The cat actually got

> treated a lot better than I did.

>

> So the animal test may work with some nadas, but not all.

>

> --.

>

October 4, 2010

My mother does a different thing - just as nutty, but different.

Whenever asked what us kids were like as babies/toddlers, she always answers " oh

you two were perfect. You never cried. You never were a problem. " I used to

raise my eyebrows, and say " surely when we were teething, or tired we would have

a tantrum or cry? " She would always reply, in a strained,

end-of-discussion-voice " No! You were perfect babies and never cried!.

I always found that odd - afterall, mum was working, looking after twins, with a

mentally disabled husband. Surely that was stressful??? Surely we were a

handful? Surely that triggered rages?

I figure it is similar to when mum looks back on our school years and goes on

about what a perfect upbringing we had and what a perfect mother she was. I

think she assumes that if she was to say what she REALLY thought we were like

as babies, people wouldnt think she was the perfect mother she wants people to

think she is.

I do have a few memories of being about 3, and most of them involve mum raging

or being afraid of her. One of the strongest memories I have is being threatened

with getting hit if I cried in public. That is a common memory for me before my

school years.

I really wouldnt want to know what my life was like before the age of 5. Not at

all.

>

> Good Lord.

>

> I haven't even finished reading through this thread and I'm just blown away at

how well these comments articulate my life!

>

> Whenever nada talks about my infancy/toddlerhood/early years, she *always*

assigns malicious intent to the things I did. She'll pull up things from that

time as " evidence " of my malicious, rebellious, abusive nature when really, most

of it was normal developmental stuff, or just serious projection on her

part...such as, I " deliberately " caused her worry because I stopped growing for

about 8 months in my first year because, according to her, I was seeking

attention. She always laughs and says " So I just didn't give in to it, let you

do what you wanted but I refused to be manipulated by a baby! " . Uh, yeah...an

infant that STOPS GROWING FOR EIGHT MONTHS has a PROBLEM. And since I had no

medical problems, I'm going to take a wild leap and say that it was neglect

based...infants who do not get the affection they need DO stop growing.

>

> But you know...I knew all of that cognitively and it's not until just now that

I'm starting to think...maybe I wasn't evil and malicious and rebellious.

Because I've always just accepted that in addition to HER crazy, that *I* was

the one who brought it out because I was so defiant and bad right from birth.

>

> Totally blown away right now.

>

> Ninera

October 4, 2010

I guess I'm more concerned for the animals' welfare - my mother dotes on her

yappy little the dog (the 5th or 6th in a series), but she refuses to train any

of them, or teach them to go outside - too much trouble to hoist herself off the

sofa - so they're " paper trained " which means sometimes they go on the special,

expensive potty pads, and sometimes they go wherever the heck they please.

Makes it REAL special to go to her apartment...

Anyway - remember that Bullock movie, 28 Days? It's about an alcoholic

who is forced into rehab, and they're discussing whether these newly-sober

people should have romantic relationships. The thereapist's advice is, " First,

get a plant. If you can keep it alive for a year, then get a pet. Keep it for

a year, and if the pet and the plant are both OK, THEN you can consider dating. "

At at rate, it would be at least three years - plus time for a pregnancy or

adoption - before these crazy people would be handed a child! Good plan.

>

> I dunno, I may have to disagree with the animal thing. In veterinary seminars

we have a management expert, McVey, who talks about how a LOT of animal

people are socially maladjusted and even PD-ish. They couldn't manage

relationships with people so they became potty over animals. Then they go to

work in an animal hospital and they can't get along with the other people there.

>

> This is the way my nada was. Really, really, really, really bonded with the

cats in our lives. And one of her stated reasons was the cats loved her no

matter what. Well, no shit, an animal's needs are a lot simpler than a

person's! They can't even speak English. One of the things she used to do was

turn directly around from screaming at me or hitting me with the flyswatter

because, say, I didn't want to run the vacuum when she wanted me to, and pick up

the cat and be all loving to him as if to say, " I love this cat a whole lot more

than you. "

>

> She also used to let my bother, oops, I mean brother, pick on me and pick on

me and pick on me. I mean things like waving his hands in my face constantly,

tickling me, picking and poking at me, taking his shoe off and waving his foot

under my nose, on and on and on. When I didn't like this, I was a

" touch-me-don't, " and supposed to be understanding of him because I was older

and he was little. Meanwhile, when the kids on the school bus hit, picked,

poked, and threw gum in my hair, she would at least try to intervene. So why

was Little Bother allowed to behave just like them? And he would milk it for

all it was worth. He knew just how to get Sister in trouble and then sit back

and laugh.

>

> One day when I was about 12 it suddenly occurred to me that if I were the cat,

she would *never* allow him to act like that. The cat actually got treated a

lot better than I did.

>

> So the animal test may work with some nadas, but not all.

>

> --.

>

October 4, 2010

My nada says that about my brother...how he was just the perfect baby, and

supposedly only ever cried if I was tormenting him. The little that I

recall...I remember running to him when he cried, to see why or to see if I

could get him quiet...but that's not how she saw it.

Although...babies who are left to cry it out without any comfort or response DO

learn to not cry. They learn that nobody will hear them to meet their needs and

their brain chemistry usually shows levels of clinical depression as a result.

Ninera

>

> Subject: Re: breathing

> To: WTOAdultChildren1

> Date: Monday, October 4, 2010, 7:38 AM

> My mother does a different thing -

> just as nutty, but different.

>

> Whenever asked what us kids were like as babies/toddlers,

> she always answers " oh you two were perfect. You never

> cried. You never were a problem. " I used to raise my

> eyebrows, and say " surely when we were teething, or tired we

> would have a tantrum or cry? " She would always reply, in a

> strained, end-of-discussion-voice " No! You were perfect

> babies and never cried!.

>

> I always found that odd - afterall, mum was working,

> looking after twins, with a mentally disabled husband.

> Surely that was stressful??? Surely we were a handful?

> Surely that triggered rages?

>

> I figure it is similar to when mum looks back on our school

> years and goes on about what a perfect upbringing we had and

> what a perfect mother she was. I think she assumes

> that if she was to say what she REALLY thought we were like

> as babies, people wouldnt think she was the perfect mother

> she wants people to think she is.

>

> I do have a few memories of being about 3, and most of them

> involve mum raging or being afraid of her. One of the

> strongest memories I have is being threatened with getting

> hit if I cried in public. That is a common memory for me

> before my school years.

>

> I really wouldnt want to know what my life was like before

> the age of 5. Not at all.

>

> >

> > Good Lord.

> >

> > I haven't even finished reading through this thread

> and I'm just blown away at how well these comments

> articulate my life!

> >

> > Whenever nada talks about my infancy/toddlerhood/early

> years, she *always* assigns malicious intent to the things I

> did. She'll pull up things from that time as

> " evidence " of my malicious, rebellious, abusive nature when

> really, most of it was normal developmental stuff, or just

> serious projection on her part...such as, I " deliberately "

> caused her worry because I stopped growing for about 8

> months in my first year because, according to her, I was

> seeking attention. She always laughs and says " So I

> just didn't give in to it, let you do what you wanted but I

> refused to be manipulated by a baby! " . Uh, yeah...an

> infant that STOPS GROWING FOR EIGHT MONTHS has a

> PROBLEM. And since I had no medical problems, I'm

> going to take a wild leap and say that it was neglect

> based...infants who do not get the affection they need DO

> stop growing.

> >

> > But you know...I knew all of that cognitively and it's

> not until just now that I'm starting to think...maybe I

> wasn't evil and malicious and rebellious. Because I've

> always just accepted that in addition to HER crazy, that *I*

> was the one who brought it out because I was so defiant and

> bad right from birth.

> >

> > Totally blown away right now.

> >

> > Ninera

>

> ------------------------------------

>

> **This group is based on principles in Randi Kreger's new

> book The Essential Family Guide to Borderline Personality

> Disorder: New Tips and Tools to Stop Walking on Eggshells,

> available at www.BPDCentral.com.** Problems? Write @....

> DO NOT RESPOND ON THE LIST.

>

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>

> Recommended: " Toxic Parents, " " Surviving a Borderline

> Parent, " and " Understanding the Borderline Mother " (hard to

> find)

October 4, 2010

Wow, ninera. Right: babies stop growing at all for 8 months because they're

being manipulative. " Good Lord " is right.

Its horrifying to think that we were each in the care of a mother who genuinely

believed that her infant/young child was capable of malicious intent toward her,

capable of using adult-level manipulative skills against her, rejected her

and/or hated HER. Its ghastly. At least, I can vouch that my nada genuinely

believes that I hated her and rejected her AS AN INFANT.

I personally believe that since my nada felt that I " started it " and rejected

her and hated her, that nada probably felt quite justified in pushing me away,

ignoring me, and even punishing me for being bad and rejecting and hateful.

Your nada's " magical thinking " , that infants can control their own growth rate

is right up there with " hearing " one's infant or toddler speaking in complete

sentences and making negative, judgmental comments. That was described here in

earlier years, by a member. This member's nada actually believed that the

member as a year-old baby was calling her names and saying ugly, mean things

about her in complete sentences. Like an adult. That member is lucky to even

be alive; a mother who is having that degree of psychotic break with reality and

feeling paranoid about her infant being " evil " , well, that infant's life is in

danger in my opinion.

More than any other trait, this one says to me that a person is too mentally ill

to be caring for a child if she believes that her child (even as an infant) has

malicious intent toward her. Its pure projection and its INSANE.

We each survived being raised by a severely insane person.

Wow.