Re: EMSAT and Soliciting

[Guest guest]

Lawerence,

You are so right.

EMS eat their Young.

Tom LeNeveu

[Guest guest]

Ok Sir I can see your point. I ask this question of

you. If you were in

charge of EMSAT or an organization with a different

name that has the same

goals what would you do ? I am not trying to start a

fight here guys. I am

asking a question. What would we all do if we were the

one who had to make

the decision ?

Steps to Success:

1. Offer free membership to all students for 1 year.

2. Have someone representing EMSAT visit the classes

and get them signed up.

3. Is there a trauma conference with booths in

Houston in august? EMSAT should be there. Talk to

those who are attending. Is there a trauma conference

in Abilene in Sept or Oct? EMSAT should be there.

Talk to those who are attending.

4. Not only have a booth at the EMS conference. But

have it staffed with representatives. I visited it

several times and it was usually empty.

5. Make sure membership materials go out to all the

members. (I was member for two years and never

recieved the materials.)

6. Develop a magazine or pamplet that has articles in

it for EMSers. Mail it out bi monthly or quarterly to

start. Eventually make it a montly magazine. (wait..

that takes long range planning for your growth.)

Does EMSAT have a chance. Yes. But you are going to

have to take some steps and convince me first. I was

a member at one time. I saw the fighting and back

room barnstorming to " make changes. "

You want help in this endeavor. Call me. I will

rejoin. I will help. I will believe. But someone

who is a representative and willing to talk and

explain some things to me will have to sit and visit

with me first.

My name is (Tom) LeNeveu. I am a

Paramedic. And I am available.

Home (817)236-1839

Pager (817)216-2569

[Guest guest]

Tom,

I share your skepticism too. EMSAT has a lot of potential, but

unfortunately, I continue to hear the same problems -- lack of communication,

failure to send membership materials, and minimal EMSAT presence at EMS events.

I wonder how much longer the " new " EMSAT leadership can continue to ask for the

EMS's community patience and blame the " old " EMSAT. Alas, this seems to be

EMSAT's pattern.

I've harped on professionalism, and will continue to do so. However, it

appears that the need for professionalism extends to our self-proclaimed

" association representing Texas EMS. " This is not meant as a swipe at the EMSAT

board. They've done a decent job of keeping a floundering association alive. But

perhaps the time has come to pull the plug. In a like matter, we wouldn't fault

a physician when a terminal patient dies. Sometimes, the damage is too far done

for anyone to repair. Are we at that point for EMSAT?

-Wes Ogilvie, MPA, JD, EMT

Austin, Texas

EMSAT member

RE: EMSAT and Soliciting

Ok Sir I can see your point. I ask this question of

you. If you were in

charge of EMSAT or an organization with a different

name that has the same

goals what would you do ? I am not trying to start a

fight here guys. I am

asking a question. What would we all do if we were the

one who had to make

the decision ?

Steps to Success:

1. Offer free membership to all students for 1 year.

2. Have someone representing EMSAT visit the classes

and get them signed up.

3. Is there a trauma conference with booths in

Houston in august? EMSAT should be there. Talk to

those who are attending. Is there a trauma conference

in Abilene in Sept or Oct? EMSAT should be there.

Talk to those who are attending.

4. Not only have a booth at the EMS conference. But

have it staffed with representatives. I visited it

several times and it was usually empty.

5. Make sure membership materials go out to all the

members. (I was member for two years and never

recieved the materials.)

6. Develop a magazine or pamplet that has articles in

it for EMSers. Mail it out bi monthly or quarterly to

start. Eventually make it a montly magazine. (wait..

that takes long range planning for your growth.)

Does EMSAT have a chance. Yes. But you are going to

have to take some steps and convince me first. I was

a member at one time. I saw the fighting and back

room barnstorming to " make changes. "

You want help in this endeavor. Call me. I will

rejoin. I will help. I will believe. But someone

who is a representative and willing to talk and

explain some things to me will have to sit and visit

with me first.

My name is (Tom) LeNeveu. I am a

Paramedic. And I am available.

Home (817)236-1839

Pager (817)216-2569

[Guest guest]

Wes,

My intelligent friend. You bring up some things that

are so essential in a professional organization. Here

is my take on it.

Yes. It can be saved. I have listed somethings that

needs to be done to make a difference.

1. Communication with the members. A mailed out

quarterly to start then hopefully bimonthly

newsletter. That can hopefully grow to a monthly

magazine.

2. Make this Newsletter/magazine available to online

members.

3. Have a " generic " email address that is checked

every day and answered.

The EMSAT representatives need to meet and greet

people from all over the state. I also believe you

need to develop local chapters. Is this easy? No.

Start by putting a couple of members in alocal area

together. Let me meet each other for coffe and a

chance to chat. Things will grow with that.

The more we interact with each other. The better the

chance of survival for EMSAT.

Still hadnt heard from anybody at emsat.

Again.. My name is (Tom) LeNeveu. I am

available. I have ideas. Wanna chat? Give me a

call.

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--- ExLngHrn@... wrote:

---------------------------------

Tom,

I share your skepticism too. EMSAT has a lot of

potential, but unfortunately, I continue to hear the

same problems -- lack of communication, failure to

send membership materials, and minimal EMSAT presence

at EMS events. I wonder how much longer the " new "

EMSAT leadership can continue to ask for the EMS's

community patience and blame the " old " EMSAT. Alas,

this seems to be EMSAT's pattern.

I've harped on professionalism, and will

continue to do so. However, it appears that the need

for professionalism extends to our self-proclaimed

" association representing Texas EMS. " This is not

meant as a swipe at the EMSAT board. They've done a

decent job of keeping a floundering association alive.

But perhaps the time has come to pull the plug. In a

like matter, we wouldn't fault a physician when a

terminal patient dies. Sometimes, the damage is too

far done for anyone to repair. Are we at that point

for EMSAT?

-Wes Ogilvie, MPA, JD, EMT

Austin, Texas

EMSAT member

RE: EMSAT and Soliciting

Ok Sir I can see your point. I ask this question of

you. If you were in

charge of EMSAT or an organization with a different

name that has the same

goals what would you do ? I am not trying to start a

fight here guys. I am

asking a question. What would we all do if we were the

one who had to make

the decision ?

Steps to Success:

1. Offer free membership to all students for 1 year.

2. Have someone representing EMSAT visit the classes

and get them signed up.

3. Is there a trauma conference with booths in

Houston in august? EMSAT should be there. Talk to

those who are attending. Is there a trauma conference

in Abilene in Sept or Oct? EMSAT should be there.

Talk to those who are attending.

4. Not only have a booth at the EMS conference. But

have it staffed with representatives. I visited it

several times and it was usually empty.

5. Make sure membership materials go out to all the

members. (I was member for two years and never

recieved the materials.)

6. Develop a magazine or pamplet that has articles in

it for EMSers. Mail it out bi monthly or quarterly to

start. Eventually make it a montly magazine. (wait..

that takes long range planning for your growth.)

Does EMSAT have a chance. Yes. But you are going to

have to take some steps and convince me first. I was

a member at one time. I saw the fighting and back

room barnstorming to " make changes. "

You want help in this endeavor. Call me. I will

rejoin. I will help. I will believe. But someone

who is a representative and willing to talk and

explain some things to me will have to sit and visit

with me first.

My name is (Tom) LeNeveu. I am a

Paramedic. And I am available.

Home (817)236-1839

Pager (817)216-2569

[Guest guest]

> Lawerence,

>

> You are so right.

>

> EMS eat their Young.

I hear this refrain over, and over, and over, and each time I hear it

it rings less and less true. I don't think that EMS eats their young

- in fact, I think that EMS folks tolerate a lot more business-related

BS than other folks do. I think it's that many in EMS have " hero

syndrome " and think that they should somehow be more above reproach

than " others " in other fields of business/work.

Try working in a high tech field doing project management, development

or technical design. You talk about constant criticism, reproach and

rudeness... you've seen NOTHING like it in EMS - that I can guarantee

you. But, what happens is that schedules get firmer, plans get more

solid, and designs get more reliable and stable.

As an analogous story, judaic tradition teaches that there are two

ways to make things holy - to cleanse them with fire or to utterly

destroy them with fire. There's often a fine line... and EMS folks

seem to be afraid of fire in general.

Why is EMSAT failing? Because like most in EMS, they're afraid of

true criticism and respond defensively to any such attempt at

purifying their work. Why is there no real support? Because to

support them is to open yourself up to criticism. The folks that are

WORKING with EMSAT are trying to do the right thing, but I believe

genuinely lack the tools (and background) to accept criticism and use

it constructively - and this is evidenced by things staying the same

through constant criticism (web site, intro packets, communications) -

all of these things have been problems since day one, and to attempt

to address those problems has brought ostracism.

It's clear that EMSAT in its current form is not going to be cleansed

by fire - it's time for it to be utterly destroyed. Then and only

then - when there's again NOTHING to support EMS in Texas - will we

onced again have a suitable starting point for unifying EMS in Texas.

Mike :/

[Guest guest]

>

> Steps to Success:

>

> 1. Offer free membership to all students for 1 year.

And after one year, why would they want to sign up again? What will

induce their continued membership?

> 2. Have someone representing EMSAT visit the classes

> and get them signed up.

What's the reason to sign up? What's EMSAT going to do for them?

> 3. Is there a trauma conference with booths in

> Houston in august? EMSAT should be there. Talk to

> those who are attending. Is there a trauma conference

> in Abilene in Sept or Oct? EMSAT should be there.

> Talk to those who are attending.

And tell them WHAT? What's EMSAT's message?

> 4. Not only have a booth at the EMS conference. But

> have it staffed with representatives. I visited it

> several times and it was usually empty.

Again, telling them WHAT? It was likely empty because the message

was empty, hollow, void...

> 5. Make sure membership materials go out to all the

> members. (I was member for two years and never

> recieved the materials.)

Agreed. And include positioning and benefits in the introductory package.

> 6. Develop a magazine or pamplet that has articles in

> it for EMSers. Mail it out bi monthly or quarterly to

> start. Eventually make it a montly magazine. (wait..

> that takes long range planning for your growth.)

And it's risky. Publishing is a high-cost activity. Why not do a

quarterly newsletter on the web site in PDF form? Less cost, less

risk, and you can still sell ads if you need/want to.

Mike :/

[Guest guest]

>

> The EMSAT representatives need to meet and greet

> people from all over the state. I also believe you

> need to develop local chapters. Is this easy? No.

> Start by putting a couple of members in alocal area

> together. Let me meet each other for coffe and a

> chance to chat. Things will grow with that.

Suggested four years ago. Initially, you could map to the same

regions as the RAC's (TSA?'s). Then, as demand grew, break out

further, or reconfigure.

Local groups would serve to act for the local interest in local

issues. This would attract local support. Then, those local groups

would meet together to address regional issues, and again for

statewide issues. Local folks would have direct say into their local

groups, regional say into the regional groups, and statewide say into

statewide issues - all under the banner of " EMSAT " or whomever

architected this organization.

But, EMSAT was determined to be a statewide organization and ignored

the fact that while statewide legislation was important at a high

level, the individual provider cares more about their local job

stability, pay, protocols, equipment and training. Thus, the local

providers and medics ignored EMSAT, for the most part, because EMSAT

wasn't important to them - at least not as important as the day to day

issues that nobody supported them with.

EMSAT was, and is, irrelevant - except for a few months every two

years when the legislature meets. And even then, they're on the

bottom of the totem pole of " those with pull. "

Local issues = local support = local membership. That money goes up

the chain to regional/statewide support... and an EMS association

flourishes.

Also, it needs to cost MORE than $30/year. While that sounds

attractive - it's not. You get what you pay for - and what can I

really expect for $2.50/month (< $.10/day). TMPA costs me

$23.00/month and it's worth every penny.

Mike

[Guest guest]

When the local chapter idea came up before, Mike is right, (though I thought

it was more recent) it was shot down with such fury that I was amazed and

surprised. Never got a clear cut answer for the lack of enthusiasm about it,

but local issues are extremely relevant, and while EMSAT can give us some

clout at the legislature level, local services need support and

representation at the city, county and region wide level as well.

A number of other ideas were also brought forth, and subsequently died as

well. My biggest issue is communication or lack thereof. It may be

considered self centered to ask what EMSAT is going to do for me, but if you

want to claim to represent me, and get my dues for another year, I need to

know these things. To say that I should join 'just because', is ludicrous.

We spend our entire careers challenging our new medics to follow the ways of

research, to use science and research as the basis for their decisions. What

does the history of EMSAT prove to them? If they were to make a decision

regarding joining EMSAT, and base that decision solely on research of EMSAT,

what will they see?

Ask them to join with a plan in mind, because as Wes and I joked many many

times, I am staying away from the Kool-Aid...

Hatfield FF/EMT-P

From: [mailto: ]On

>

> The EMSAT representatives need to meet and greet

> people from all over the state. I also believe you

> need to develop local chapters. Is this easy? No.

> Start by putting a couple of members in alocal area

> together. Let me meet each other for coffe and a

> chance to chat. Things will grow with that.

Suggested four years ago. Initially, you could map to the same

regions as the RAC's (TSA?'s). Then, as demand grew, break out

further, or reconfigure.

Local groups would serve to act for the local interest in local

issues. This would attract local support. Then, those local groups

would meet together to address regional issues, and again for

statewide issues. Local folks would have direct say into their local

groups, regional say into the regional groups, and statewide say into

statewide issues - all under the banner of " EMSAT " or whomever

architected this organization.

[Guest guest]

>

> When the local chapter idea came up before, Mike is right, (though I thought

> it was more recent) it was shot down with such fury that I was amazed and

> surprised. Never got a clear cut answer for the lack of enthusiasm about it,

> but local issues are extremely relevant, and while EMSAT can give us some

> clout at the legislature level, local services need support and

> representation at the city, county and region wide level as well.

And to be fair, there has been a change of administration since then -

it appeared that the " old guard " shot it down because it diluted their

" supreme control " over everyone. Not that the " new guard " has done

anything to CHANGE that, though...

Honestly, folks, I see GETAC, though " larger and more cumbersome " than

many would like, as an excellent starting point. Yes, GETAC serves a

different purpose - but it's as unified (even for those with differing

opinions) as anything ever has been in Texas EMS. No, I'm not jumping

up and down and saying " GETAC WILL SAVE US! ALL HAIL GETAC! "

Certainly not. But, who can argue that they're, at the very least,

more effective in promulgating change than anything else that's been

tried?

Look at the NFPA's standards creation and review process. VERY slow,

VERY detailed (when they take public comment on a standard, they read

EACH and EVERY public comment on the proposed language then vote on it

- EACH ONE, ONE AT A TIME). It's a long process, but everyone gets a

say and the committees that draft the language are represented by

EVERYONE involved - manufacturers, safety experts, fire/ems personnel,

governments, public persons, etc.

EMSAT failed because it started at the political sounding board of a

few disgruntled people who figured they could attract members " just

because they were different. " Orgs before that failed for not being

important to EMS folks.

What I believe will succeed is an organization that puts itself SECOND

to the needs of the EMS personnel it seeks to serve... and for which

it expresses its value in terms of how it's served EMS, not how it

serves to self-aggrandize itself.

Mike

[Guest guest]

Let me first of all set the record straight. I know Mike . I've been

Mike's friend, and I've been furious at him as well.

Regardless of how I feel about Mike as a person (and my feelings are very

mixed), I will not allow anyone to delve into ad hominem attacks. Larry, you

don't agree with Mike about EMSAT? Fine. Disagree. Point out where Mike is

wrong on the issues. But your puerile rantings and allegations of a conspiracy

theory between Mike and are beginning to grate upon me.

Unless you have concrete evidence that is admissible in a state district

court, I'd strongly caution you regarding allegations, particularly those

involving moral turpitude. Such allegations can prove to be very costly.

Larry, if you're no longer certified in Texas, please explain how you're a

medic. Are you continuing to provide prehospital care? If so, I'd be doubly

cautious about whose cape you tug on. Regardless, while all are welcome on

this list, you really don't have a personal stake in the EMSAT issue, which

makes you very different from either Mike or I.

-Wes Ogilvie, MPA, JD, EMT

EMSAT member, State Bar of Texas member, etc.

In a message dated 7/12/2005 9:22:14 PM Central Daylight Time,

lpmedic2000@... writes:

Mike wrote:

> Change the evidence. Prove me wrong.

Mike appears to want to be the standard bearer for the anti

EMSAT movement. I would ask Mr. a few questions;

Mike, how many jobs have you held in the past five years? With whom?

Exactly how did you lose these jobs? If EMSAT is a " failure " (your

words), what exactly does your employment history make you? Does

someone with your resume qualify as leadership material? And

regarding your EMSAT membership, can you tell us the truth about that

last dues check you wrote and the real reason you are no longer a

member? You twice demand EMSAT get out of the way and let some

nebulous grassroots movement take over. Exactly where is this

grassroots organization going to come from? Who is the leader? You

ask us to prove you wrong. That is faulty logic. Shouldn't you be

the one proving EMSAT wrong? Do you really think your little bitches

add up to the failure you preach? Are you and Blum in

cahoots? He seems to want to defend your indefensible positions. Were

you part of that earlier conspiracy involving Mr. Blum?

Now some questions for the rest of the EMSAT detractors; Granted

EMSAT acts like a compact car full of clowns and has a great deal of

trouble getting things straight, what exactly have any of you done to

provide input or direction for this or any statewide EMS association?

Why did TAEMT and TSEMT fail? Do you suppose it was due to apathy and

lack of involvement from the general EMS population? Mr. seems

to want to be the leader of some new grassroots movement (you should

judge the wisdom of that by his answers to the questions above – if

he will answer them), but why is that any more of an option than

simply joining EMSAT, getting involved and trying to redirect the

efforts into that which you feel is needed? EMSAT is already there.

Why don't we just join them and try to make it work?

The telemarketing thing is not on my list of favorites. I sure wish

they wouldn't do it, for several reasons. But I can't tell them how I

feel as I can't be an EMSAT member. I'm no longer a Texas certificate

holder and haven't been for over 15 years. However, I am a medic, and

still live in Texas so I care about EMS in Texas. I'm an NAEMT member

and those folks hear what I have to say on a regular basis. You want

to look at an association with warts, look at NAEMT. It seems that

when they take action on something lately I don't like it, and I

don't feel they do enough on many fronts where they SHOULD act. They

goof around approving an Admiral's uniform for EMS dress while the

scope of practice and a hundred other more important things go mostly

unnoticed. Infuriating! Still, like them or not, they represent " us "

and we should support them and remain involved and try to get the

clowns to notice that the house is on fire. The same with EMSAT.

Different set of clowns but the failings and possibilities are

identical. It is the possibilities upon which we should focus. As we

continue hacking them down we hack the limb we sit upon. Is that wise?

Cheers,

Larry

[Guest guest]

Mike,

I think you are wrong. I think that EMSAT can be a

voice for EMS and the future of EMS. After speaking

with a couple of board members today. I have hopes.

I think that things will be growing.

Watch Mike. Be skeptical. Don't believe. But if

things grow. And things change. Are you willing to

give it a second, or third chance or what ever number

you may be on?

Are you so sure that , Al and the others don't

have what it takes to make a difference in EMS? Mike,

Don't join. Just watch. But be open minded, and

listen to what happens.

Maybe, Just maybe they will perk your ears.

Tom

[Guest guest]

--- Mike wrote:

---------------------------------

>

> Steps to Success:

>

> 1. Offer free membership to all students for 1

year.

And after one year, why would they want to sign up

again? What willinduce their continued membership?

I am not a board member. I cannot state what they

will be offering. If I was runnning the EMSAT.

A. Education at conferences with a discount

B. Scholarship opportunities for Paramedic Program

C. Discounted Legal (prepaid legal?) Don't know

what else is out there.

D. Life insurance?

> 2. Have someone representing EMSAT visit the

classes

> and get them signed up.

What's the reason to sign up? What's EMSAT going to

do for them?

Again I am not a board member. But if......

A. First year dosnet cost them a dime

B. opportunities for Educational Scholarships

C. See my answer to your first question

> 3. Is there a trauma conference with booths in

> Houston in august? EMSAT should be there. Talk to

> those who are attending. Is there a trauma

conference

> in Abilene in Sept or Oct? EMSAT should be there.

> Talk to those who are attending.

And tell them WHAT? What's EMSAT's message?

UNITY UNITY UNITY.... We want to work together for

the betterment of EMS. Get to know the people in EMS.

Learn of their concerns. Sorry mike but not only are

the people on here about 3% or so of the EMSers. But

the ones who are not on this list server. What are

their issues. How else does EMSAT get to know them

other than talking to them.

> 4. Not only have a booth at the EMS conference. But

> have it staffed with representatives. I visited it

> several times and it was usually empty.

Again, telling them WHAT? It was likely empty

because the message

was empty, hollow, void...

Today the message is hollow void and emtpy. But there

is hope. There is a chance that EMSAT can make a

difference. But they have to be there to meet the

people to get the pulse of the people that are wanting

to make EMS better.

> 5. Make sure membership materials go out to all the

> members. (I was member for two years and never

> recieved the materials.)

Agreed. And include positioning and benefits in the

introductory package.

> 6. Develop a magazine or pamplet that has articles

in

> it for EMSers. Mail it out bi monthly or quarterly

to

> start. Eventually make it a montly magazine.

(wait..

> that takes long range planning for your growth.)

And it's risky. Publishing is a high-cost activity.

Why not do a

quarterly newsletter on the web site in PDF form?

Less cost, less

risk, and you can still sell ads if you need/want to.

Great idea mike. Why not do one of those. Why not

sell ads in the magazine so EMSAT can get away from

telemarketing? Or get sponsers for their Web Site

etc. These are ideas that are needed in the EMSAT

meeting.

I am skeptical about EMSAT. But I think EMSAT can be

the future. I told today. That I was rejoining.

And I will be not only someone who is active. But I

may be a thorn in their side as well when I disagree.

But I will be active. That is what it is about.

Tom

[Guest guest]

So, the story is still " we will change. Just wait. "

Sounds like domestic abusers... " but I love him. "

If EMSAT finds a way they think they can succeed, more power to them.

I still believe the task at hand is different than the challenge they

are looking at - and that lack of focus will constantly inhibit their

success... and I believe that the history of continual failures speaks

volumes to the chances of any future success. As someone else said,

it's an evidence-based conclusion.

Change the evidence. Prove me wrong.

Mike :/

> Mike,

>

> I think you are wrong. I think that EMSAT can be a

> voice for EMS and the future of EMS. After speaking

> with a couple of board members today. I have hopes.

> I think that things will be growing.

>

> Watch Mike. Be skeptical. Don't believe. But if

> things grow. And things change. Are you willing to

> give it a second, or third chance or what ever number

> you may be on?

>

> Are you so sure that , Al and the others don't

> have what it takes to make a difference in EMS? Mike,

> Don't join. Just watch. But be open minded, and

> listen to what happens.

>

> Maybe, Just maybe they will perk your ears.

>

> Tom

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

History is the best indicator when looking at the future. Quoting

this mantra, how can we be expected to believe that anything fruitful

will become of this organization? This is no way should be construed

as taking " swipes " at the respective EMSAT board members in anyway...

Just making an observation.

-Alfonso R. Ochoa

> Mike,

>

> I think you are wrong. I think that EMSAT can be a

> voice for EMS and the future of EMS. After speaking

> with a couple of board members today. I have hopes.

> I think that things will be growing.

>

> Watch Mike. Be skeptical. Don't believe. But if

> things grow. And things change. Are you willing to

> give it a second, or third chance or what ever number

> you may be on?

>

> Are you so sure that , Al and the others don't

> have what it takes to make a difference in EMS? Mike,

> Don't join. Just watch. But be open minded, and

> listen to what happens.

>

> Maybe, Just maybe they will perk your ears.

>

> Tom

[Guest guest]

However, I am a medic, and

> still live in Texas so I care about EMS in Texas. I'm an NAEMT

member

> and those folks hear what I have to say on a regular basis.

You know, it is a criminal act for you to represent yourself as a

medic still in the state of Texas, as you are not. You expired in

February of 2005 and are no longer a Paramedic, or EMT, or anything

EMS in Texas, so if you want to start throwing stones, lets start

there you piece of sh*t!

P.S. E-mail me. I am waiting you chicken sh*t!

[Guest guest]

> Mike wrote:

>

> > Change the evidence. Prove me wrong.

>

> Mike appears to want to be the standard bearer for the anti

> EMSAT movement. I would ask Mr. a few questions;

No, Mike isn't afraid to voice an opinion about EMSAT based on

experience with them.

> Mike, how many jobs have you held in the past five years? With whom?

> Exactly how did you lose these jobs? If EMSAT is a " failure " (your

> words), what exactly does your employment history make you? Does

> someone with your resume qualify as leadership material? And

> regarding your EMSAT membership, can you tell us the truth about that

> last dues check you wrote and the real reason you are no longer a

> member?

You seem to know a lot more about my work history than I do. Do you

have a specific set of concerns you'd like addressed? Or, are you

just echoing the sentiments of Donn , the last person to ask

questions in this vein (and, who through affiliation with DSHS, isn't

able to join in this discussion, I'd bet - at least not directly)? I

stand by my employment history - and my employers have never had a

second thought about it, either... nor has the state, who has seen fit

to issue me a paramedic license, a peace officer license, a texas

racing commission license, a driver license... etc. As for any

financial dealings with EMSAT, they have long since been resolved, and

I chose of my own accord to not renew my membership. I would hope,

though, that you're not in possession of any financial information and

divulging it, as that could find you and those who may have given you

that information in jeopardy of federal violations regarding the care

and divulging of credit and financial information. I have been a

victim of identity theft, and my credit report reflects that (as I can

pretty confidently say I've never owned a Porsche in the northeast,

despite those who were trying to obtain insurance on the Porsche in my

name). I'd hate to think that you'd somehow have been involved in

that, Larry. If, in fact, you ARE Larry. We all remember the

Hicks and Bledsoe imitators... and it seems that someone might

try to imitate you in order to get you in legal trouble by claiming to

be a medic in Texas, which it appears that you are not. Maybe we

shouldn't trust that you are who you say you are, either. Is there a

" smoking man " present???

> You twice demand EMSAT get out of the way and let some

> nebulous grassroots movement take over. Exactly where is this

> grassroots organization going to come from? Who is the leader? You

> ask us to prove you wrong. That is faulty logic. Shouldn't you be

> the one proving EMSAT wrong? Do you really think your little bitches

> add up to the failure you preach?

The grassroots organization will come from where grassroots

organizations always come from... the local level. The past EMS

organizations that intended to support EMS in Texas were started from

the top, and designed to be top-down. They, like EMSAT, have failed.

They've failed because they didn't recognize that the top-level issues

don't matter to the individual provider on the street because they

can't get past their immediate local issues to even see the top level,

much less give thought ot resolution of such sky-high concerns. And

no, as logic goes, you don't put out a precept of thought and say " and

now it's your turn to prove me wrong. " You prove out your thoughts

and your ideas, and give them merit of their own accord and standing.

So, in this sense, it's not anyone's job to " prove EMSAT wrong. " It's

EMSAT's job, through definable actions and metrics, to prove

themselves right. To date, that's not possible - and we're going on

five years now.

> Are you and Blum in

> cahoots? He seems to want to defend your indefensible positions. Were

> you part of that earlier conspiracy involving Mr. Blum?

Which conspiracy was that? I don't remember being involved,

or needing to be involved, in any conspiracy.

> Now some questions for the rest of the EMSAT detractors; Granted

> EMSAT acts like a compact car full of clowns and has a great deal of

> trouble getting things straight, what exactly have any of you done to

> provide input or direction for this or any statewide EMS association?

So people should attempt to associate themselves with groups that act

like " a compact car full of clowns? " That's not a smart approach,

IMHO.

> Why did TAEMT and TSEMT fail? Do you suppose it was due to apathy and

> lack of involvement from the general EMS population? Mr. seems

> to want to be the leader of some new grassroots movement (you should

> judge the wisdom of that by his answers to the questions above – if

> he will answer them), but why is that any more of an option than

> simply joining EMSAT, getting involved and trying to redirect the

> efforts into that which you feel is needed? EMSAT is already there.

> Why don't we just join them and try to make it work?

Because their approach has obviously failed, and rather than adopting

a failed approach, we should re-examine our reasons for trying in the

first place - and then figure out what we really want to accomplish

and how we could do that. Jumping on a sinking ship is not a good way

to learn seamanship. Is that wise?

Mike

[Guest guest]

> Mike appears to want to be the standard bearer for the anti

> EMSAT movement. I would ask Mr. a few questions;

>

This is the only part of the email that I intend to reply to for the

most part, the rest is based on a level of ignorance that I have not

seen for quite some time.

Mike, although he bears some anti EMSAT sentiment, merely brings

things to the forefront that others either choose not to discuss, or

choose not to discuss on the list. The fact that he chooses to

disagree with the direction that EMSAT has taken, is he right, and I

respect that. Mike and I have disagreed on issues in the past, and

will continue to disagree with issues in the future. I respect,

though often disagree with him, but I know that he is passionate

about his opinions, as we should all be. He is articulate, and as a

general rule, refrains from personal attacks; rather he cuts to the

chase and starts an earnest and worthwhile discussion.

The points that he makes, are exactly the same as mine. His issues

mirror my own. I haven't posted a lot of them merely because it

would begin to become redundant to see the same posts over and over

and over again, so I watch and read.

Myself? Been at the same job for 8 years, though I have changed my

part time jobs more frequently than that, and I am a dues paying

member of EMSAT. ly, I really don't see where that has a

bearing on the issue at all, do you? I am a Paramedic, and am

qualified to get my FF certification, though I have not sent the

paperwork and check yet, please feel free to verify both. I work for

a rural area in South Texas, and am commited to the betterment of

EMS in general, though I have a profound love for rural/frontier

EMS.

Alfonso made an excellent post regarding history foretelling the

future (paraphrased), so based on the history of EMSAT, what does

the future hold?

Your personal attack on Mike simply shows that you are unable to

discuss or refute his points, rather you reduce yourself to immature

personal attacks, sad....very very sad.

Hatfield FF/EMT-P

[Guest guest]

My that was professional sounding. Reminds me of the name calling

back when I was in the 5th grade.

Seriously folks. There is all this talk about EMS being taken

seriously in the professional world, yet we have people like this that

cuss like sailors on an OPEN FORUM that many people, not limited to

EMS certificate holders, read. Tact and well-placed rhetoric goes

further than this petty bickering.

-Alfonso R. Ochoa, MS©, NREMT-P, EMSI

> OK, you chicken Sh*t mother f*cker Larry! What conspiracy are you

>

> Otherwise, all I can say is

> cut your shit!!

>

[Guest guest]

Uh, WHAT?

In his defense, if you read his entire e-mail properly, he stated he

was no longer a Texas EMS certificate holder. Unless he shows up

onscenes and declares himself to be an ECA....LP, he has done no wrong.

Also, I am respectfully asking you to refrain from using foul

language, starred out or not, as it is not warranted nor is it needed.

-Alfonso R. Ochoa, MS©, NREMT-P, EMSI

--- In , " Wallace Blum, EMT-Paramedic "

>

> You know, it is a criminal act for you to represent yourself as a

> medic still in the state of Texas, as you are not. You expired in

> February of 2005 and are no longer a Paramedic, or EMT, or anything

> EMS in Texas, so if you want to start throwing stones, lets start

> there you piece of sh*t!

>

>

>

> P.S. E-mail me. I am waiting you chicken sh*t!

[Guest guest]

Alfonso,

I don't know whether or not you need reading glasses, but I suggest

you put them on, or re-read the post. He stated " However, I am a

medic, and still live in Texas so I care about EMS in Texas. I'm an

NAEMT member and those folks hear what I have to say on a regular

basis. "

So therefore, he is in violation by representing himself as a medic

when not certified as one.

In case you aren't aware. Us who have LE backgrounds know there are

two forms of impersonation. One is just saying you are someone (thats

a misdemeanor), the other is using that " power " to influence someone

or obtain a privelage of that position in which you are impersonating

(that's a felony). He is committing the first.

[Guest guest]

Alfonso,

I don't know whether or not you need reading glasses, but I suggest

you put them on, or re-read the post. He stated " However, I am a

medic, and still live in Texas so I care about EMS in Texas. I'm an

NAEMT member and those folks hear what I have to say on a regular

basis. "

So therefore, he is in violation by representing himself as a medic

when not certified as one.

In case you aren't aware. Us who have LE backgrounds know there are

two forms of impersonation. One is just saying you are someone (thats

a misdemeanor), the other is using that " power " to influence someone

or obtain a privelage of that position in which you are impersonating

(that's a felony). He is committing the first.

[Guest guest]

Hatfield, are you still a dues paying member?

Tom

PS I found this written by you over a year ago:

Having been perceived as the critic of EMSAT in the

past, I feel the need to

state my case and say that I have gone from 'critic'

to 'somewhat cynical',

though approaching with an open mind. I am a dues

paying member of EMSAT and

have been for the past 2 years. I am opinionated, and

don't fear voicing my

opinion in a relatively diplomatic way. For many on

this list, and many who

are not on the list but knowledgable of EMSAT, there

were in the past many

reasons to NOT suport EMSAT. I had some of my own, but

after the last

election; most were gone.

I have disagreed with some of the positions that the

board has taken in the

past, but I also realize that the intent behind their

decisions was for the

betterment of Texas EMS in general. That said, I have

also had numerous

conversations, both in person, via telephone and email

with many of the

board members themselves, and come away with a

different pserspective. The

current board members are more receptive than some in

the past, their goals

are more precise than some of those in the past.

EMSAT does need numbers, it's not the money per se, it

is the numbers. The

35.00 doesn't go far, it does help offset some of the

expenses of running

the operation day to day. But to approach a politician

and say, " We are

here, and we represent 50K pissed of Texans " , tends to

get a bit more

attention.

Gene has done an excellent job of putting forth more

information since the

last election, the web site has improved 110%,

position papers have been

posted, and Gene will on occasion post here with the

lastest and greatest

information from EMSAT.

I want you to join, but not solely to get your money,

I want you to join, so

that we can move forward together, so that not only

will you share the

responsibility, but so that you will also share in the

feeling of

achievement when things go right.

All I have ever asked is that the board be open, and

make decisons based

upon what is best for EMS, to date, the current board

has done that.

Am I still cynical? Sure, but less and less each day.

Am I still

opinionated? LOL, oh yeah. WIll I join again next

year? Yeah, no doubt about

it.

I don't want to push you off the fence, I just want to

help you off on the

right side....

If I can help in any way, email me privately.

Mike hatfield

[Guest guest]

You might want to review your statutes again. What personel exactly

is he impersonating? Seriously, think about it.

-aro

> Alfonso,

>

> I don't know whether or not you need reading glasses, but I suggest

> you put them on, or re-read the post. He stated " However, I am a

> medic, and still live in Texas so I care about EMS in Texas. I'm an

> NAEMT member and those folks hear what I have to say on a regular

> basis. "

>

> So therefore, he is in violation by representing himself as a medic

> when not certified as one.

>

> In case you aren't aware. Us who have LE backgrounds know there are

> two forms of impersonation. One is just saying you are someone (thats

> a misdemeanor), the other is using that " power " to influence someone

> or obtain a privelage of that position in which you are impersonating

> (that's a felony). He is committing the first.

>

>

[Guest guest]

He clearly stated he is a medic...........this is implied as an EMT or

above. It is clearly enough to make a case for imperonating a public

servant (misdemeanor). I have seen people arrested, and charged for

saying the same thing.

i.e. " A medic? What kind of medic, where is your certification

card? I uh, uh, well, I use to be, uh, I am not really anymore,

uh..... Turn around and place your hands behind your back, you are

under arrest. " If he lies to that peace officer, that's an additional

offense. I hope he never passes through Mike's neck of the woods. LOL

[Guest guest]

Although that is true, if he is a military medic, they require that

they maintain not only NREMT status, but also state certification in

the state which they are stationed or active. Therefore, if he was a

military medic in Texas, stationed here, he would have to maintain

both.