Re: Question about Probiotics

[Guest guest]

> Hi,

> I've read you can test the probiotics you buy (and also make your own

> using them as a starter)

This sort of begs the question of why someone would buy the capsules

of " probiotics " if they know about culturing their own probiotics?

Kefir is supposed to be a very wide spectrum probiotic with dozens of

kinds of life already in it. Plus easy to culture.

by putting the powder out of the capsules

> into warm milk and let sit overnight. If they are active the milk

> turns into something like yoghurt. I 've tried this with my newly

> bought Lactobacillus sporogenesis from Thorne but in the morning the

> milk was still milk. Does this mean that I wasted my money? Should the

> milk be kept warm all the time? Should I leave it longer? With my

> kefir grains it works so magically over night...

> Thank you for your input,

> Andreea

[Guest guest]

Hi, my name is Lark Burnham, I have a doctorate in animal nutrition

and one of interests is probiotics. Last month, we had a series of

discussions on here about probiotics, with many people insisting that

kefir and other fermented foods are probiotics.

This is incorrect, and the word 'probiotic' is being used incorrectly.

There many be a few thousand of the species identified as having

probiotic properties, but the probiotic effect involves much higher

numbers (1,000,000,000), and only some bacterial species survive long

enough in the gastrointestinal to be of any use in health maintenance.

To answer your questions:

Yes, warmth is generally needed for many probiotic bacteria, they are

often thermophiles.

L. sporagenes goes into a cyst, a may require the acidic conditions of

the gastrointestinal tract to emerge.

To insure that you get the right probiotic species and in the numbers

necessary for the probiotic effect, you need to buy freeze-dried

microorganisms. This is usually found in a pill for human use.

There are some beneficial organisms in kefir and yogurt, and starting

with a culture that contains known probiotic species will help.

However, you must consume large quantities on a daily basis to get the

protective benefits - say a quart or more of kefir or yoghurt.

I have been drinking kefir for about a month now, and I have not

noticed any change in digestion or overall health. I drink about a

quart a day.

There are concentrations of probiotics recommended for health

maintenance, and then there are much higher concentrations recommended

for treatment of illness. Kefir might supply enough for the first

category, but you need something else for the second.

I know of a source of guaranteed levels of viable probiotic

microorganisms, but not in a convenient pill form. Please contact me

if anyone is interested.

lark@...

Lark Burnham, Ph.D.

Animal Nutrition

> Hi,

> I've read you can test the probiotics you buy (and also make your own

> using them as a starter) by putting the powder out of the capsules

> into warm milk and let sit overnight. If they are active the milk

> turns into something like yoghurt. I 've tried this with my newly

> bought Lactobacillus sporogenesis from Thorne but in the morning the

> milk was still milk. Does this mean that I wasted my money? Should the

> milk be kept warm all the time? Should I leave it longer? With my

> kefir grains it works so magically over night...

> Thank you for your input,

> Andreea

[Guest guest]

Hi Lark, Welcome back! Since we had our discussion last month I added

the probiotics that you talk about to my diet and after a couple weeks

began to see marked improvement in energy. It was quite noticeable for

me. I continue to have my water kefir (no dairy), kim chee and kraut

because it is my belief that all these things work in unison.

If you're healthy to begin with maybe it's not such a big deal but,

for (sick) me, the addition of probiotics to consumption of fermented

foods has helped a great deal.

I'm glad to hear you tried the kefir for a month! Maybe now we can get

you to go for the kim chee :-) I'll mail you some of mine when it gets

a bit cooler. As I said, I think the fermented foods have many

benefits in addition to the good bacteria they contain; The fiber and

enzymes would seem to support the entire digestive tract.

My guess is that if you're pretty well and want to continue your good

health the fermented foods are probably enough. But if you're stressed

or sick and recovering (like I've been) I think the addition of

probiotics can be extremely helpful. That was my experience. Thank

you, Lark.

~Robin Ann

[Guest guest]

Lark,

That's great that you are drinking kefir now. But I wouldn't

discount it's benefits just because you haven't noticed any yet.

For instance I started with coconut oil a year and a half ago,

Kombucha in Nov, Kefir and Rice Bran Oil in January, kefir bread in

April, and Brazil nuts for selenium in May. I have noticed some

substantial changes in the last few months or so. I don't know what

they are directly attributed to, it could be any of the above or a

combination of them. I also haven't been sick or had any allergies,

not that I was very prone to them before, but I've been fine so far

this year. So, is it the bene bacs, enzymes and acids in the

kombucha and kefir? The abundance of B vitamins, tryptophan, the

more easily assimilated protein and minerals in the kefir? The

Tocopherols and Tocotrienols in the Rice Bran Oil? The lack of

enzyme inhibiting phytates in the whole wheat bread? The extra

selenium in the nuts? Etc, etc.

Some people notice benefits immediately and some don't. That

doesn't mean that they aren't being benefited. I did notice a

decreased desire for sweets and snacking when I started drinking

kefir, not immediately though.

As Heidi said in another post:

" That said, I think a LOT of the bennies of fermented foods are NOT

> from the live bacteria ... they are from the enzymes,

antibacterials, antifungals, anticancer, and hormonal regulatory

compounds that the bacteria produce. You can't get any of that stuff

in a pill. Heidi "

(hope you don't mind my quoting you Heidi!)

I do think it's great that Robin was helped by your probiotics. We

don't have any serious health problems, thank God, so we'll stick to

food.

NB It doesn't have to be very sour, we sweeten ours a bit and add a

bit of cream as well or add fruit and make a smoothie!

Keep up the kefir, it may surprise you!

Debbie in TX

PS I tried to post this the other day, but there was tech

difficulty with the site.

> I have been drinking kefir for about a month now, and I have not

> noticed any change in digestion or overall health. I drink about a

> quart a day.

>

>> Lark Burnham, Ph.D.

> Animal Nutrition

[Guest guest]

Dear Deb;

I did notice the decrease in desire to snack, I would just take a few

sips of kefir through the day and not need that grano;a bar. I am

also using raw milk which is nticably higher in fat than the skim I

usually use on cereal, so I assumed it was the added calories.

I have had the worst time getting consistent results with the kefir

fermentations. One day it is perfect and the next it has to go to the

dogs. I have gone through gallons and gallons of milk and tried

timing, stirring (or not) and then the grains keep growing. What is

the secret to consistently good kefir? My mentor with the dairy cows

says hers always separates, but I don't like the taste after that

happens. When it is good, I can drink it straight or in a smoothy

with just frozen strawberries.

The dogs are happy.

Lark

[Guest guest]

I am also using real milk albeit goat's milk...assumed my reduced

desire for snacking had to do with calories also.

I have had the worst time getting consistent results with the kefir

fermentations. One day it is perfect and the next it has to go to

the dogs. have gone through gallons and gallons of milk and tried

> timing, stirring (or not) and then the grains keep growing. What

is

> the secret to consistently good kefir?

I am afraid I am the wrong one to ask about consistency. I try to

keep it at about a tablespoon of grains to a quart of milk and

generally wait 24 hours. But, our results are inconsistent at best

also. I just use it in smoothies for the kids and me or the

traditional plug your nose and drink it followed by a chaser that is

more pleasant to my pallet! ;-) (The whole process sounds so grown

up doesn't it?)

Well, anyway, kefir has helped to stablize my gut/crohn's no spastic

bowel and that is some cheap and healthy medicine...so, overall,

plugging my nose isn't so bad! Sure beats steroids.

Lark, sorry I am not much help, but, there you have it.

Deb

[Guest guest]

>From: " mckdlee " mckeefamily@...

>For instance I started with coconut oil a year and a half ago,

>Kombucha in Nov, Kefir and Rice Bran Oil in January, kefir bread in

>April, and Brazil nuts for selenium in May

Dear Debbie in Tx,

Are you using brazil nuts with shells, which someone wrote had tons more

selenium than the already-shelled nuts? If so, have you found a place to

get organic?

Glad to hear you are having so much success with your new foods!

Dahlia

[Guest guest]

>From: " londislandsunshine " assaria7@...

>I have had the worst time getting consistent results with the kefir

>fermentations. One day it is perfect and the next it has to go to the

>dogs.

Hi Lark,

Just my 2 cents: I have the best most consistent results with all my

ferments now that I keep a close watch on temperature. I use a

soft-sided cooler with an ice pack which I change every 12 or 24 hours,

aiming for around 60 degrees in the cooler. I got the idea here and it

makes a huge difference!

Dahlia

[Guest guest]

Dear Deb;

I am glad I am not the only one with these problems, maybe I expect

too much? Anyway, I drink the good ones and the dogs get the bad

ones. DSo you stir or just let it sit?

Lark

> I am also using real milk albeit goat's milk...assumed my reduced

> desire for snacking had to do with calories also.

>

> I have had the worst time getting consistent results with the kefir

> fermentations. One day it is perfect and the next it has to go to

> the dogs. have gone through gallons and gallons of milk and tried

> > timing, stirring (or not) and then the grains keep growing. What

> is

> > the secret to consistently good kefir?

>

> I am afraid I am the wrong one to ask about consistency. I try to

> keep it at about a tablespoon of grains to a quart of milk and

> generally wait 24 hours. But, our results are inconsistent at best

> also. I just use it in smoothies for the kids and me or the

> traditional plug your nose and drink it followed by a chaser that is

> more pleasant to my pallet! ;-) (The whole process sounds so grown

> up doesn't it?)

>

> Well, anyway, kefir has helped to stablize my gut/crohn's no spastic

> bowel and that is some cheap and healthy medicine...so, overall,

> plugging my nose isn't so bad! Sure beats steroids.

>

> Lark, sorry I am not much help, but, there you have it.

>

> Deb

[Guest guest]

Dear Dahlia;

Thank you for the suggestion. Most of the time the room temp is 76-77

F, so my ferments are warmer than yours. This winter they will

probably be too cool. I will try the ice dhest idea.

Lark

> >From: " londislandsunshine " assaria7@m...

> >I have had the worst time getting consistent results with the kefir

> >fermentations. One day it is perfect and the next it has to go to the

> >dogs.

>

> Hi Lark,

> Just my 2 cents: I have the best most consistent results with all my

> ferments now that I keep a close watch on temperature. I use a

> soft-sided cooler with an ice pack which I change every 12 or 24 hours,

> aiming for around 60 degrees in the cooler. I got the idea here and it

> makes a huge difference!

> Dahlia

[Guest guest]

>[Deb] Well, anyway, kefir has helped to stablize my gut/crohn's no spastic

>bowel and that is some cheap and healthy medicine...so, overall,

>plugging my nose isn't so bad! Sure beats steroids.

You can also use extra kefir grains to make " kefir beer " (or " kefir pop "

if you like less alcohol), if you don't like the taste of kefir or

can't do dairy for some reason. Seems to have good probiotic

effects for me, but easier to drink.

Heidi Jean

[Guest guest]

>

> I am glad I am not the only one with these problems, maybe I expect

> too much? Anyway, I drink the good ones and the dogs get the bad

> ones. DSo you stir or just let it sit?

>

> Lark

Sounds like you have healthy dogs! Sometimes I do and sometimes I

don't stir my kefir...I don't work to hard at it with our schedule, I

just glad not to kill my grains-haha...

Deb

[Guest guest]

Lark,

I don't always have consistent results with my kefir either. It

turned out much better in the cooler months. I use a cooler a lot

of the time. I always cover the jar tightly with a metal canning lid

and band-it's fizzier that way. I shake or swish the jar several

times during the day. I didn't like the way the grains got trapped

in the cream of the raw whole milk, so I skim off most of the cream

and culture the milk without it, then I add the cream back in when I

serve it. Our favorite way to sweeten it is with maple syrup.

It's easy to use too many grains. I don't use near as many as most

people say they do. I use about 3 or 4 hazelnut size grains for 6-7

cups of milk in a 1/2 gallon jar. I don't let it get to separation

stage, at least not on purpose anyway! If it goes too long I add

extra milk to it. Actually, sometimes I just add milk to a cup or so

of kefir and let that culture, it turns out really well and is ready

much sooner. Our Westie loves kefir, I always give him the jar

rinsings and he gets the real thing, too.

Debbie in TX

[Guest guest]

Hi Dahlia,

I've only found the shelled organic from the HFS or my whole foods

co-op (Ozark ative). I've read that unshelled is best and I'd

like to get them some time, actually I think I found some on-line a

while back, but the cost was prohibitive. I'm paying about $4 per

pound from the co-op, and eat maybe 5 a day. Some of them don't

taste that great, but most of them taste good. I didn't like them as

a child, so I think it's funny that I like them now.

Debbie in TX

>

> Dear Debbie in Tx,

> Are you using brazil nuts with shells, which someone wrote had

tons more

> selenium than the already-shelled nuts? If so, have you found a

place to

> get organic?

> Glad to hear you are having so much success with your new foods!

> Dahlia

[Guest guest]

I forgot to mention that I use a stick blender to smooth the kefir.

Debbie in TX

[Guest guest]

Dear Deb;

Thanks for your suggestions. I have tried fermenting in a cooler with

an ice pack, but I think it may have been too cool, it is taking too

long. I removed the grains after a day and a half and am now ripening

at room temperature. It is cool today after the rain we had

yesterday, only mid-60's, so I think it will be okay. I need to have

someway to check the temperature.

I think I may be switching back to skimmed milk. As you say, the

grains reside in the cream layer. My mentor said she never shakes or

stirs and that it ALWAYS separates. I do not care for the taste after

it separates. I have been trying to use smell to determine readiness,

but that has not always been effective. I usually strain and taste,

and return to the bottle if it is not ready.

The two dogs out of three that always consume the 'bad' kefir do not

look any different except maybe fatter, especially since they are also

getting egg yolks. My Blue Heeler has been a sporadic consumer of

just about anything I have tried, sometimes it has to sit there for a

few hours before she eats it. Sometimes I have to give it to the

other dogs, the Lab and Lab-cross will eat anything.

Lark

[Guest guest]

>Hi Dahlia,

>I've only found the shelled organic from the HFS or my whole foods

>co-op (Ozark ative). I've read that unshelled is best and I'd

>like to get them some time, actually I think I found some on-line a

>while back, but the cost was prohibitive. I'm paying about $4 per

>pound from the co-op, and eat maybe 5 a day. Some of them don't

>taste that great, but most of them taste good. I didn't like them as

>a child, so I think it's funny that I like them now.

>Debbie in TX

Thanks for the info Debbie...if you ever remember the web site, I'd love

to know. I tried searching and couldn't find organic unshelled brazil

nuts.

Dahlia

[Guest guest]

Hi, I purchased brazil nuts from www.americahealth.com which were very good.

The cost may not been waht you want, but its a place to start. I eat one a day

because of my thyroid issues. One should give me the daily amount of selenium I

need. I did not want to overload my system. I read somewhere that too many

nuts may be toxic.

F.

mckdlee <mckeefamily@...> wrote:

Hi Dahlia,

I've only found the shelled organic from the HFS or my whole foods

co-op (Ozark ative). I've read that unshelled is best and I'd

like to get them some time, actually I think I found some on-line a

while back, but the cost was prohibitive. I'm paying about $4 per

pound from the co-op, and eat maybe 5 a day. Some of them don't

taste that great, but most of them taste good. I didn't like them as

a child, so I think it's funny that I like them now.

Debbie in TX

>

> Dear Debbie in Tx,

> Are you using brazil nuts with shells, which someone wrote had

tons more

> selenium than the already-shelled nuts? If so, have you found a

place to

> get organic?

> Glad to hear you are having so much success with your new foods!

> Dahlia

[Guest guest]

Dahlia,

I think this is where I saw them. See Jean's link below. I also

found some NON orgainc in shell at http://organicfruitsandnuts.com

I started out just eating 1 or 2 per day, but kept increasing, I

figured that my body must need them! I also skip a day or two here

and there. Do you mean too many Brazil nuts or too many of any

nuts? I don't think a very small handful would be too much of any

nut. I think our bodies will tell us if we get too much of

something. Or the desire for the food will leave. My DS 18 gets on

food " kicks " . He'll love something and eat it a lot, then he won't

touch it for a long time and move on to something else. He seems to

rotate between ginger, bittersweet chocolate and black strap

molasses! I figure he needs the minerals or something in them! I

even started supplementing our family with magnesium as a result.

Thanks!

Debbie in TX

> Hi, I purchased brazil nuts from www.americahealth.com which were

very good. The cost may not been waht you want, but its a place to

start. I eat one a day because of my thyroid issues. One should

give me the daily amount of selenium I need. I did not want to

overload my system. I read somewhere that too many nuts may be

toxic.

>

> F.

[Guest guest]

Hi Debbie, I am not sure how much of the brazil nuts would be toxic to each

individual. Because of my thyroid issues, I really need to limit my intake to

about 200 mg a day which equals one brazil nut. I guess like you said, our

bodies will tell us when we have had too much. You may want to do another

search just in case this is mentioned. Glad your DS loves the things he does. It

is possible he is lacking certain minerals which causes him to eat that way. The

magnesium is a good addiution.

F.

mckdlee <mckeefamily@...> wrote:

Dahlia,

I think this is where I saw them. See Jean's link below. I also

found some NON orgainc in shell at http://organicfruitsandnuts.com

I started out just eating 1 or 2 per day, but kept increasing, I

figured that my body must need them! I also skip a day or two here

and there. Do you mean too many Brazil nuts or too many of any

nuts? I don't think a very small handful would be too much of any

nut. I think our bodies will tell us if we get too much of

something. Or the desire for the food will leave. My DS 18 gets on

food " kicks " . He'll love something and eat it a lot, then he won't

touch it for a long time and move on to something else. He seems to

rotate between ginger, bittersweet chocolate and black strap

molasses! I figure he needs the minerals or something in them! I

even started supplementing our family with magnesium as a result.

Thanks!

Debbie in TX

> Hi, I purchased brazil nuts from www.americahealth.com which were

very good. The cost may not been waht you want, but its a place to

start. I eat one a day because of my thyroid issues. One should

give me the daily amount of selenium I need. I did not want to

overload my system. I read somewhere that too many nuts may be

toxic.

>

> F.

[Guest guest]

Dahilia, you can also try www.naturalzing.com for the brazil nuts.

F.

mckdlee <mckeefamily@...> wrote:

Dahlia,

I think this is where I saw them. See Jean's link below. I also

found some NON orgainc in shell at http://organicfruitsandnuts.com

I started out just eating 1 or 2 per day, but kept increasing, I

figured that my body must need them! I also skip a day or two here

and there. Do you mean too many Brazil nuts or too many of any

nuts? I don't think a very small handful would be too much of any

nut. I think our bodies will tell us if we get too much of

something. Or the desire for the food will leave. My DS 18 gets on

food " kicks " . He'll love something and eat it a lot, then he won't

touch it for a long time and move on to something else. He seems to

rotate between ginger, bittersweet chocolate and black strap

molasses! I figure he needs the minerals or something in them! I

even started supplementing our family with magnesium as a result.

Thanks!

Debbie in TX

> Hi, I purchased brazil nuts from www.americahealth.com which were

very good. The cost may not been waht you want, but its a place to

start. I eat one a day because of my thyroid issues. One should

give me the daily amount of selenium I need. I did not want to

overload my system. I read somewhere that too many nuts may be

toxic.

>

> F.

[Guest guest]

>From: Ward <Jeanyward@...>

>Subject: Re: Re: question about probiotics

>Hi, I purchased brazil nuts from www.americahealth.com which were very

good. The cost may not been >waht you want, but its a place to start. I

eat one a day because of my thyroid issues. One should give me >the

daily amount of selenium I need. I did not want to overload my system.

I read somewhere that too >many nuts may be toxic.

Hi

I just ordered 5 lbs of in-shell brazil nuts from amerihealth. The

shipping to NYS from California is expensive but the price may be

justified if the nuts are fresh...I'll let you know.

Dahlia

[Guest guest]

Hi Dahlia, that's good. Mine were very fresh. I just opened another bag and

they are still fresh. Let me know if yours are as good.

F.

srapp785@... wrote:

>From: Ward <Jeanyward@...>

>Subject: Re: Re: question about probiotics

>Hi, I purchased brazil nuts from www.americahealth.com which were very

good. The cost may not been >waht you want, but its a place to start. I

eat one a day because of my thyroid issues. One should give me >the

daily amount of selenium I need. I did not want to overload my system.

I read somewhere that too >many nuts may be toxic.

Hi

I just ordered 5 lbs of in-shell brazil nuts from amerihealth. The

shipping to NYS from California is expensive but the price may be

justified if the nuts are fresh...I'll let you know.

Dahlia

[Guest guest]

>>Careful with the Brazil nuts unless you happen to be a Blood Type B.

>>Robbie from Texas

uh oh, I'm a type A. I totally forgot to check out that info...I'm not

completely convinced of the blood typing thing, but I am familiar with it

and do try to take it into account. That said, I do eat lots of pastured

beef which is not good for A's either. Hmmmm....

Dahlia

[Guest guest]

>>Thank you Robbie. Because of my thyroid issues, I soak my brazil nuts

and >>only eat one a day.

>>>>F.

Hi

Do you soak one nut a day, or a bunch at a time, and if a bunch at once,

how do you keep them fresh? What do you soak in? And do you heat them

before you eat them?

thanks,

Dahlia

p.s. so far Americahealth seem so nice to deal with, and efficient--my

order was shipped within hours of placing it! Have you tried their goji

berries?