Re: Fast Track Paramedic Course

[Guest guest]

> I wish I could have got my B.S. degree in 700 clock hours. I'd have

10 of

> them by now.

Revisiting the similar discussion we had here regarding this issue in

September, and since you are such a fan of statistical analysis...

A bachelors degree usually requires 120 semester hours at a

university. 120

semester hours roughly breaks down to 1440 contact hours.

An associates degree usually requires 60 semseter hours. 60 semester

hours

roughly breaks down to 720 contact hours.

Using UTHSC-SA as an example, completion of EMT and Paramedic school

requires 1502 contact hours. That is the educational equivalent of a

bachelors degree plus an extra semester for good measure. It is more than

double the educational content of an associates degree.

Those numbers beg the question: Is EMS' problem really with the

quantity of education, or is it not a problem with quality?

Rob

[Guest guest]

> I wish I could have got my B.S. degree in 700 clock hours. I'd have

10 of

> them by now.

Revisiting the similar discussion we had here regarding this issue in

September, and since you are such a fan of statistical analysis...

A bachelors degree usually requires 120 semester hours at a

university. 120

semester hours roughly breaks down to 1440 contact hours.

An associates degree usually requires 60 semseter hours. 60 semester

hours

roughly breaks down to 720 contact hours.

Using UTHSC-SA as an example, completion of EMT and Paramedic school

requires 1502 contact hours. That is the educational equivalent of a

bachelors degree plus an extra semester for good measure. It is more than

double the educational content of an associates degree.

Those numbers beg the question: Is EMS' problem really with the

quantity of education, or is it not a problem with quality?

Rob

[Guest guest]

> I wish I could have got my B.S. degree in 700 clock hours. I'd have

10 of

> them by now.

Revisiting the similar discussion we had here regarding this issue in

September, and since you are such a fan of statistical analysis...

A bachelors degree usually requires 120 semester hours at a

university. 120

semester hours roughly breaks down to 1440 contact hours.

An associates degree usually requires 60 semseter hours. 60 semester

hours

roughly breaks down to 720 contact hours.

Using UTHSC-SA as an example, completion of EMT and Paramedic school

requires 1502 contact hours. That is the educational equivalent of a

bachelors degree plus an extra semester for good measure. It is more than

double the educational content of an associates degree.

Those numbers beg the question: Is EMS' problem really with the

quantity of education, or is it not a problem with quality?

Rob

[Guest guest]

For nursing, you have to have an AS or AAS degree at the minimum. For EMS,

all you need are the minimum clock hours. In most colleges, 2 hours of lab

per week for 16 weeks usually equals 1 semester hour while 1 hour of lecture

a week for 16 weeks equals 1 semester hour. In hospital clinical time

(practicals), the credits can vary but usually 4 hours per week for 16 weeks

is equal to one semester hour. Thus, at the minimum, nurses will get about

1,000 to 1,500 actual nursing hours plus the non-nursing courses (usually

600 hours) for a total of 1,600 to 2,100 clock hours. B.S.N. nurses will

have over 5,000 clock hours of education. My daughter finished cosmetology

school at Hill College in Cleburne and was required to have 1,500 hours

(they had to punch a clock).

Medical school is about 6,00-10,000 clock hours depending on electives

taken.

By the way, I was on an ACEP site visit committee many years ago for

Excelsior in Albany, NY. They are a quality program. Most people do not

realize that their tests are equivalent to CLEP and breezing through them is

difficult--thus the high attrition rate.

BEB

E. Bledsoe, DO, FACEP

Midlothian, TX

Don't miss EMStock 2005 (http://www.EMStock.com)

Re: Fast Track Paramedic Course

> I wish I could have got my B.S. degree in 700 clock hours. I'd have

10 of

> them by now.

Revisiting the similar discussion we had here regarding this issue in

September, and since you are such a fan of statistical analysis...

A bachelors degree usually requires 120 semester hours at a university. 120

semester hours roughly breaks down to 1440 contact hours.

An associates degree usually requires 60 semseter hours. 60 semester hours

roughly breaks down to 720 contact hours.

Using UTHSC-SA as an example, completion of EMT and Paramedic school

requires 1502 contact hours. That is the educational equivalent of a

bachelors degree plus an extra semester for good measure. It is more than

double the educational content of an associates degree.

Those numbers beg the question: Is EMS' problem really with the quantity of

education, or is it not a problem with quality?

Rob

[Guest guest]

For nursing, you have to have an AS or AAS degree at the minimum. For EMS,

all you need are the minimum clock hours. In most colleges, 2 hours of lab

per week for 16 weeks usually equals 1 semester hour while 1 hour of lecture

a week for 16 weeks equals 1 semester hour. In hospital clinical time

(practicals), the credits can vary but usually 4 hours per week for 16 weeks

is equal to one semester hour. Thus, at the minimum, nurses will get about

1,000 to 1,500 actual nursing hours plus the non-nursing courses (usually

600 hours) for a total of 1,600 to 2,100 clock hours. B.S.N. nurses will

have over 5,000 clock hours of education. My daughter finished cosmetology

school at Hill College in Cleburne and was required to have 1,500 hours

(they had to punch a clock).

Medical school is about 6,00-10,000 clock hours depending on electives

taken.

By the way, I was on an ACEP site visit committee many years ago for

Excelsior in Albany, NY. They are a quality program. Most people do not

realize that their tests are equivalent to CLEP and breezing through them is

difficult--thus the high attrition rate.

BEB

E. Bledsoe, DO, FACEP

Midlothian, TX

Don't miss EMStock 2005 (http://www.EMStock.com)

Re: Fast Track Paramedic Course

> I wish I could have got my B.S. degree in 700 clock hours. I'd have

10 of

> them by now.

Revisiting the similar discussion we had here regarding this issue in

September, and since you are such a fan of statistical analysis...

A bachelors degree usually requires 120 semester hours at a university. 120

semester hours roughly breaks down to 1440 contact hours.

An associates degree usually requires 60 semseter hours. 60 semester hours

roughly breaks down to 720 contact hours.

Using UTHSC-SA as an example, completion of EMT and Paramedic school

requires 1502 contact hours. That is the educational equivalent of a

bachelors degree plus an extra semester for good measure. It is more than

double the educational content of an associates degree.

Those numbers beg the question: Is EMS' problem really with the quantity of

education, or is it not a problem with quality?

Rob

[Guest guest]

Rob,

Correcting the numbers

Since a semester hour is defined by the Texas Higher Education Coordinating

Board as one hour a week for a long (16 week) semester, that would be 1920

hours (120 x 16) assuming NO labs. Labs count (at best) 3 to one, so assume

one lab a semester for the entire 8 semesters for a BA and add on the

additional 240 hours (2x16x8) and your 1440 contact hours is really up to

2160 contact hours. My BS was 136 hours so add 256 (16x16) and additional

labs 64 (2x 16 x 2) more for a grand total of 2480 so your estimate is off

by 50-66%.

Your estimate for UTHSCSA seems on target. An AAS in EMS Technology at ACC

has 72 semester hours. 72x16 =1152 again assuming no labs or credit for

internship (1 credit for 8 hours if I recall correctly), so 1500 hours does

not surprise me.

http://www.austincc.edu/ems/program/AAS-plan.htm

=====================

UTHSCSA and ACC are two examples of what I consider quality programs,

however, Bill and Ted's Excellent Paramedic Schools still run programs and

draw students...The problem is not that quality programs are not out there,

the problem is there are short fast programs (400 hours by the old rules)

that do not adequately prepare students for the job; these graduates then

reflect poorly on the profession and no one remembers the good things, only

the bad things stick in the memory. It is just like good service vs bad

service anyplace else: if you treat me well and I will tell two people and

then forget about it, if you treat me poorly and I will tell everyone I know

for the rest of my life....

If we want to be treated as professionals, then we must act like it in EVERY

WAY, not just the ways that are convenient.

Re: Fast Track Paramedic Course

>

>

>

> > I wish I could have got my B.S. degree in 700 clock hours. I'd have

> 10 of

> > them by now.

>

> Revisiting the similar discussion we had here regarding this issue in

> September, and since you are such a fan of statistical analysis...

>

> A bachelors degree usually requires 120 semester hours at a

> university. 120

> semester hours roughly breaks down to 1440 contact hours.

>

> An associates degree usually requires 60 semseter hours. 60 semester

> hours

> roughly breaks down to 720 contact hours.

>

> Using UTHSC-SA as an example, completion of EMT and Paramedic school

> requires 1502 contact hours. That is the educational equivalent of a

> bachelors degree plus an extra semester for good measure. It is more than

> double the educational content of an associates degree.

>

> Those numbers beg the question: Is EMS' problem really with the

> quantity of education, or is it not a problem with quality?

>

> Rob

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Rob,

Correcting the numbers

Since a semester hour is defined by the Texas Higher Education Coordinating

Board as one hour a week for a long (16 week) semester, that would be 1920

hours (120 x 16) assuming NO labs. Labs count (at best) 3 to one, so assume

one lab a semester for the entire 8 semesters for a BA and add on the

additional 240 hours (2x16x8) and your 1440 contact hours is really up to

2160 contact hours. My BS was 136 hours so add 256 (16x16) and additional

labs 64 (2x 16 x 2) more for a grand total of 2480 so your estimate is off

by 50-66%.

Your estimate for UTHSCSA seems on target. An AAS in EMS Technology at ACC

has 72 semester hours. 72x16 =1152 again assuming no labs or credit for

internship (1 credit for 8 hours if I recall correctly), so 1500 hours does

not surprise me.

http://www.austincc.edu/ems/program/AAS-plan.htm

=====================

UTHSCSA and ACC are two examples of what I consider quality programs,

however, Bill and Ted's Excellent Paramedic Schools still run programs and

draw students...The problem is not that quality programs are not out there,

the problem is there are short fast programs (400 hours by the old rules)

that do not adequately prepare students for the job; these graduates then

reflect poorly on the profession and no one remembers the good things, only

the bad things stick in the memory. It is just like good service vs bad

service anyplace else: if you treat me well and I will tell two people and

then forget about it, if you treat me poorly and I will tell everyone I know

for the rest of my life....

If we want to be treated as professionals, then we must act like it in EVERY

WAY, not just the ways that are convenient.

Re: Fast Track Paramedic Course

>

>

>

> > I wish I could have got my B.S. degree in 700 clock hours. I'd have

> 10 of

> > them by now.

>

> Revisiting the similar discussion we had here regarding this issue in

> September, and since you are such a fan of statistical analysis...

>

> A bachelors degree usually requires 120 semester hours at a

> university. 120

> semester hours roughly breaks down to 1440 contact hours.

>

> An associates degree usually requires 60 semseter hours. 60 semester

> hours

> roughly breaks down to 720 contact hours.

>

> Using UTHSC-SA as an example, completion of EMT and Paramedic school

> requires 1502 contact hours. That is the educational equivalent of a

> bachelors degree plus an extra semester for good measure. It is more than

> double the educational content of an associates degree.

>

> Those numbers beg the question: Is EMS' problem really with the

> quantity of education, or is it not a problem with quality?

>

> Rob

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

> >

> > If becoming a paramedic required at bare minimum an associates

> degree

> > like the nursing profession, we wouldn't be talking about this.

> >

> > -aro

> >

> I agree, most of us would be nurses and on a diffent web

> site.......but I do agree that we must raise the standard.

> K

I concur!

-aro

[Guest guest]

> >

> > If becoming a paramedic required at bare minimum an associates

> degree

> > like the nursing profession, we wouldn't be talking about this.

> >

> > -aro

> >

> I agree, most of us would be nurses and on a diffent web

> site.......but I do agree that we must raise the standard.

> K

I concur!

-aro

[Guest guest]

> >

> > If becoming a paramedic required at bare minimum an associates

> degree

> > like the nursing profession, we wouldn't be talking about this.

> >

> > -aro

> >

> I agree, most of us would be nurses and on a diffent web

> site.......but I do agree that we must raise the standard.

> K

I concur!

-aro

[Guest guest]

" Bledsoe " <bbledsoe@e...> wrote:

>

> By the way, I was on an ACEP site visit committee many years ago for

> Excelsior in Albany, NY. They are a quality program. Most people do not

> realize that their tests are equivalent to CLEP and breezing through

them is

> difficult--thus the high attrition rate.

Without a doubt! I am constantly amused by all the people getting

excited about Excelsior with a fantasy in their head of how quick and

easy it is going to be! The fact is, it is definitely harder, and

frequently longer than the traditional route. If you graduate, you

know your shit. I watched a lot of really experienced LVN's bomb the

CPNE in the first hour.

Rob

[Guest guest]

" Bledsoe " <bbledsoe@e...> wrote:

>

> By the way, I was on an ACEP site visit committee many years ago for

> Excelsior in Albany, NY. They are a quality program. Most people do not

> realize that their tests are equivalent to CLEP and breezing through

them is

> difficult--thus the high attrition rate.

Without a doubt! I am constantly amused by all the people getting

excited about Excelsior with a fantasy in their head of how quick and

easy it is going to be! The fact is, it is definitely harder, and

frequently longer than the traditional route. If you graduate, you

know your shit. I watched a lot of really experienced LVN's bomb the

CPNE in the first hour.

Rob

[Guest guest]

" Bledsoe " <bbledsoe@e...> wrote:

>

> By the way, I was on an ACEP site visit committee many years ago for

> Excelsior in Albany, NY. They are a quality program. Most people do not

> realize that their tests are equivalent to CLEP and breezing through

them is

> difficult--thus the high attrition rate.

Without a doubt! I am constantly amused by all the people getting

excited about Excelsior with a fantasy in their head of how quick and

easy it is going to be! The fact is, it is definitely harder, and

frequently longer than the traditional route. If you graduate, you

know your shit. I watched a lot of really experienced LVN's bomb the

CPNE in the first hour.

Rob

[Guest guest]

>

> > Most, not all, medics who go through a fast track program are medics

> > who know that you give a brown box and purple box of medicine during

> > a code, but dont know the reasons for the meds and the results they

> > have and the reasons why those meds work.

> >

> So take that up with NR. If the test were harder, educators would have

> to educate more, and students would have to learn more. Raise the bar

> on the test - that's where we control " how much " goes into an EMS

> program.

>

> Mike

NR isn't necessarily the best solution, but it had raised the bar

somewhat. Comparing paramedic pass rates in my local community,

significantly less candidates are passing now that NR is required.

I'd be delighted to see state statistics to see if the phenomenon is

local (to me) or state-wide.

-aro

[Guest guest]

>

> > Most, not all, medics who go through a fast track program are medics

> > who know that you give a brown box and purple box of medicine during

> > a code, but dont know the reasons for the meds and the results they

> > have and the reasons why those meds work.

> >

> So take that up with NR. If the test were harder, educators would have

> to educate more, and students would have to learn more. Raise the bar

> on the test - that's where we control " how much " goes into an EMS

> program.

>

> Mike

NR isn't necessarily the best solution, but it had raised the bar

somewhat. Comparing paramedic pass rates in my local community,

significantly less candidates are passing now that NR is required.

I'd be delighted to see state statistics to see if the phenomenon is

local (to me) or state-wide.

-aro

[Guest guest]

>

> > Most, not all, medics who go through a fast track program are medics

> > who know that you give a brown box and purple box of medicine during

> > a code, but dont know the reasons for the meds and the results they

> > have and the reasons why those meds work.

> >

> So take that up with NR. If the test were harder, educators would have

> to educate more, and students would have to learn more. Raise the bar

> on the test - that's where we control " how much " goes into an EMS

> program.

>

> Mike

NR isn't necessarily the best solution, but it had raised the bar

somewhat. Comparing paramedic pass rates in my local community,

significantly less candidates are passing now that NR is required.

I'd be delighted to see state statistics to see if the phenomenon is

local (to me) or state-wide.

-aro

[Guest guest]

" J. Nile " <pharmd2b@a...> wrote:

> Rob,

>

> Correcting the numbers

Thank you, Sir. I stand corrected.

You must admit though that for a 1 year course, EMT-Paramedic school

stacks up pretty well to nursing school, hours wise. While I

certainly agree that the standard needs to be significantly improved,

I just don't want to see us get so focused on the convenient " more is

better " theory that inadequate attention is given to quality. That

tends to happen universally in the educational arena.

Rob

[Guest guest]

" J. Nile " <pharmd2b@a...> wrote:

> Rob,

>

> Correcting the numbers

Thank you, Sir. I stand corrected.

You must admit though that for a 1 year course, EMT-Paramedic school

stacks up pretty well to nursing school, hours wise. While I

certainly agree that the standard needs to be significantly improved,

I just don't want to see us get so focused on the convenient " more is

better " theory that inadequate attention is given to quality. That

tends to happen universally in the educational arena.

Rob

[Guest guest]

" J. Nile " <pharmd2b@a...> wrote:

> Rob,

>

> Correcting the numbers

Thank you, Sir. I stand corrected.

You must admit though that for a 1 year course, EMT-Paramedic school

stacks up pretty well to nursing school, hours wise. While I

certainly agree that the standard needs to be significantly improved,

I just don't want to see us get so focused on the convenient " more is

better " theory that inadequate attention is given to quality. That

tends to happen universally in the educational arena.

Rob

[Guest guest]

" Alfonso R. Ochoa " <asclapius@a...> wrote:

>

> Comparing paramedic pass rates in my local community,

> significantly less candidates are passing now that NR is required.

> I'd be delighted to see state statistics to see if the phenomenon is

> local (to me) or state-wide.

I would too! I didn't find the NR to be any more difficult than the

TDH exam, and passing the TDH exam can be done with your eyes closed

after about your second recert.

When I tested for NR, it was in Las Vegas. I did significantly better

than most of the others there. I theorize that Texas medics were

better prepared than those from other states. Or at least that was

the popular theory at the time.

Rob

[Guest guest]

" Alfonso R. Ochoa " <asclapius@a...> wrote:

>

> Comparing paramedic pass rates in my local community,

> significantly less candidates are passing now that NR is required.

> I'd be delighted to see state statistics to see if the phenomenon is

> local (to me) or state-wide.

I would too! I didn't find the NR to be any more difficult than the

TDH exam, and passing the TDH exam can be done with your eyes closed

after about your second recert.

When I tested for NR, it was in Las Vegas. I did significantly better

than most of the others there. I theorize that Texas medics were

better prepared than those from other states. Or at least that was

the popular theory at the time.

Rob

[Guest guest]

" Alfonso R. Ochoa " <asclapius@a...> wrote:

>

> Comparing paramedic pass rates in my local community,

> significantly less candidates are passing now that NR is required.

> I'd be delighted to see state statistics to see if the phenomenon is

> local (to me) or state-wide.

I would too! I didn't find the NR to be any more difficult than the

TDH exam, and passing the TDH exam can be done with your eyes closed

after about your second recert.

When I tested for NR, it was in Las Vegas. I did significantly better

than most of the others there. I theorize that Texas medics were

better prepared than those from other states. Or at least that was

the popular theory at the time.

Rob

[Guest guest]

Not necessarily. Look at the minimum number of hours to become a paramedic.

EMT: 140 - includes class, lab, hospital and EMS ride outs

EMT-P: 624 - includes class, lab, hospital and EMS ride outs

Total: 764 hours

Now, I'm no rocket scientist but I do believe 764 hours is a wee bit less

than what it takes to be an ADN.

Eddie

Director of Clinical Services

MetroCare Services

3913 Todd Lane, Suite 308

Austin, Texas 78744

Office: ext. 103

Pager:

Re: Fast Track Paramedic Course

" Alfonso R. Ochoa " <asclapius@a...> wrote:

>

> If becoming a paramedic required at bare minimum an associates degree

> like the nursing profession, we wouldn't be talking about this.

Not necessarily. EMT-Paramedic, hour for hour, is longer than nursing

school. The only difference is that colleges drag the calendar out

longer for nursing school.

Rob

[Guest guest]

Not necessarily. Look at the minimum number of hours to become a paramedic.

EMT: 140 - includes class, lab, hospital and EMS ride outs

EMT-P: 624 - includes class, lab, hospital and EMS ride outs

Total: 764 hours

Now, I'm no rocket scientist but I do believe 764 hours is a wee bit less

than what it takes to be an ADN.

Eddie

Director of Clinical Services

MetroCare Services

3913 Todd Lane, Suite 308

Austin, Texas 78744

Office: ext. 103

Pager:

Re: Fast Track Paramedic Course

" Alfonso R. Ochoa " <asclapius@a...> wrote:

>

> If becoming a paramedic required at bare minimum an associates degree

> like the nursing profession, we wouldn't be talking about this.

Not necessarily. EMT-Paramedic, hour for hour, is longer than nursing

school. The only difference is that colleges drag the calendar out

longer for nursing school.

Rob

[Guest guest]

Try Emergency Consultants in Deer Park.

Eddie

Director of Clinical Services

MetroCare Services

3913 Todd Lane, Suite 308

Austin, Texas 78744

Office: ext. 103

Pager:

Re: Fast Track Paramedic Course

Sooooooo.... back on topic here. ARE THERE any fast-track courses

left in Texas? I'd consider going back and recertifying if it didn't

take forever.

Rob