Re: forced into AA

[Guest guest]

just recently I learned from my probation officer that I was court ordered to attend AA once a week.

Have you put in a call to the Illinois Civil Liberties Union? If you like, I would write a letter to them for you, citing case law from the 7th circuit and other persuasive authority. I'm not admitted in Illinois, but they might be willing to sponsor my admission to handle just this matter if they are not willing to take it on themselves.

I'd need a copy of the Order, and a few other things we could discuss by private email. I'd start with the ICLU first, as this is just the sort of case they are there for, and they carry a lot of clout.

--Mona--

[Guest guest]

just recently I learned from my probation officer that I was court ordered to attend AA once a week.

Have you put in a call to the Illinois Civil Liberties Union? If you like, I would write a letter to them for you, citing case law from the 7th circuit and other persuasive authority. I'm not admitted in Illinois, but they might be willing to sponsor my admission to handle just this matter if they are not willing to take it on themselves.

I'd need a copy of the Order, and a few other things we could discuss by private email. I'd start with the ICLU first, as this is just the sort of case they are there for, and they carry a lot of clout.

--Mona--

[Guest guest]

just recently I learned from my probation officer that I was court ordered to attend AA once a week.

Have you put in a call to the Illinois Civil Liberties Union? If you like, I would write a letter to them for you, citing case law from the 7th circuit and other persuasive authority. I'm not admitted in Illinois, but they might be willing to sponsor my admission to handle just this matter if they are not willing to take it on themselves.

I'd need a copy of the Order, and a few other things we could discuss by private email. I'd start with the ICLU first, as this is just the sort of case they are there for, and they carry a lot of clout.

--Mona--

[Guest guest]

If you don't like it, tell the judge, and tell him that if necessary you will do the jail time.Don't blame it on the judge, not if you signed the paper saying you would go there. Anything less is hypocritical.

But, if he was given the alternative of either AA or jail, that is unconstitutional. He must also be given secular alternatives. Otherwise, the choice is no different from ordering him to either go to jail, or attend services at The First Church of Those Saved By the Blood of Jesus.

How was he to know when he signed it that AA was a religion? However, I do agree he should simply make a motion for modification, first. Give the probation dept and the judge a chance to do the constitutional thing.

--Mona--

[Guest guest]

<<

Have you put in a call to the Illinois Civil Liberties Union? If you like,

I

would write a letter to them for you, citing case law from the 7th circuit

and other persuasive authority. I'm not admitted in Illinois, but they

might

be willing to sponsor my admission to handle just this matter if they are

not

willing to take it on themselves.

I'd need a copy of the Order, and a few other things we could discuss by

private email. I'd start with the ICLU first, as this is just the sort of

case they are there for, and they carry a lot of clout.

--Mona-- >>

Loud applause! This is just the kind of assistance people need to take on the

steppers in high places.

Nick

[Guest guest]

<<

Have you put in a call to the Illinois Civil Liberties Union? If you like,

I

would write a letter to them for you, citing case law from the 7th circuit

and other persuasive authority. I'm not admitted in Illinois, but they

might

be willing to sponsor my admission to handle just this matter if they are

not

willing to take it on themselves.

I'd need a copy of the Order, and a few other things we could discuss by

private email. I'd start with the ICLU first, as this is just the sort of

case they are there for, and they carry a lot of clout.

--Mona-- >>

Loud applause! This is just the kind of assistance people need to take on the

steppers in high places.

Nick

[Guest guest]

<<

Have you put in a call to the Illinois Civil Liberties Union? If you like,

I

would write a letter to them for you, citing case law from the 7th circuit

and other persuasive authority. I'm not admitted in Illinois, but they

might

be willing to sponsor my admission to handle just this matter if they are

not

willing to take it on themselves.

I'd need a copy of the Order, and a few other things we could discuss by

private email. I'd start with the ICLU first, as this is just the sort of

case they are there for, and they carry a lot of clout.

--Mona-- >>

Loud applause! This is just the kind of assistance people need to take on the

steppers in high places.

Nick

[Guest guest]

Nicely said Rita.

Mike I don't read everything that comes over the list anymore as the traffic

is quite heavy now. I noticed your most recent response and it took me by

surprise so I back tracked through my archive to look at everything you've

posted so far. My archive seems to be missing your introduction. Not that

one is necessary of course but it does help to understand where everyone is

coming from.

I'm interested in hearing what brought you to 12 step free.

As for me I was ordered into AA, via the military, after seeking assistance

with, self destructive drinking behavior. The garbage spewed constantly in

the rewms was readily apparent to me and turned me off almost immediately.

(and don't' think that " almost " doesn't sting to this day) I found my way

here and received some rather unique advice about snorting into a Styrofoam

cup to take my mind off the attempted indoctrination process. Every time I

went to meetings after that I thought of what that poster here told me and

I'll be damned if it didn't bring a smile to my face.

- Re: forced into AA

-

-

-

-

-> It's not right to call it a court order. It is an agreement

-that you make, as a condition of probation. If you don't like

-it, tell the judge, and tell him that if necessary you will do

-the jail time.Don't blame it on the judge, not if you signed

-the paper saying you would go there. Anything less is hypocritical.

->

-----------------

-

- Excuse me???

-

- Do you have any idea what the word " coercion " means? If

-someone makes a so-called " choice " based on threat of bodily

-harm, loss of freedom, or other other odious punishment, they

-have not made a free choice. They have been COERCED. If

-someone holds you up at gunpoint and says " give me your money

-or I'll shoot you, the choice is yours " , does that mean they

-can claim afterwards that you " chose " to given them your

-wallet so you weren't really robbed??

-

- Telling someone they may " choose " either involvement with

-a religious program, or IMPRISONMENT, is a violation of the

-Establishment Clause of the First Amendment of the great

-Constitution of the U.S. of A. Anyone forced to sign an

- " agreement " based on such a " choice " can and should sue. And

-several have. Kerr v. Farrey and Lind is the case in the 7th

-Circuit in which it was ruled that forced attendance at

-12-step programs is unconstitutional.

-

- Would you also think it's OK for a judge to offer an

-American citizen a " choice " between jail and conversion to

-Islam? They call that " free choice " in Iran and Afghanistan, you know.

-

-~Rita

-

[Guest guest]

Nicely said Rita.

Mike I don't read everything that comes over the list anymore as the traffic

is quite heavy now. I noticed your most recent response and it took me by

surprise so I back tracked through my archive to look at everything you've

posted so far. My archive seems to be missing your introduction. Not that

one is necessary of course but it does help to understand where everyone is

coming from.

I'm interested in hearing what brought you to 12 step free.

As for me I was ordered into AA, via the military, after seeking assistance

with, self destructive drinking behavior. The garbage spewed constantly in

the rewms was readily apparent to me and turned me off almost immediately.

(and don't' think that " almost " doesn't sting to this day) I found my way

here and received some rather unique advice about snorting into a Styrofoam

cup to take my mind off the attempted indoctrination process. Every time I

went to meetings after that I thought of what that poster here told me and

I'll be damned if it didn't bring a smile to my face.

- Re: forced into AA

-

-

-

-

-> It's not right to call it a court order. It is an agreement

-that you make, as a condition of probation. If you don't like

-it, tell the judge, and tell him that if necessary you will do

-the jail time.Don't blame it on the judge, not if you signed

-the paper saying you would go there. Anything less is hypocritical.

->

-----------------

-

- Excuse me???

-

- Do you have any idea what the word " coercion " means? If

-someone makes a so-called " choice " based on threat of bodily

-harm, loss of freedom, or other other odious punishment, they

-have not made a free choice. They have been COERCED. If

-someone holds you up at gunpoint and says " give me your money

-or I'll shoot you, the choice is yours " , does that mean they

-can claim afterwards that you " chose " to given them your

-wallet so you weren't really robbed??

-

- Telling someone they may " choose " either involvement with

-a religious program, or IMPRISONMENT, is a violation of the

-Establishment Clause of the First Amendment of the great

-Constitution of the U.S. of A. Anyone forced to sign an

- " agreement " based on such a " choice " can and should sue. And

-several have. Kerr v. Farrey and Lind is the case in the 7th

-Circuit in which it was ruled that forced attendance at

-12-step programs is unconstitutional.

-

- Would you also think it's OK for a judge to offer an

-American citizen a " choice " between jail and conversion to

-Islam? They call that " free choice " in Iran and Afghanistan, you know.

-

-~Rita

-

[Guest guest]

I found my way

here and received some rather unique advice about snorting into a Styrofoam

cup to take my mind off the attempted indoctrination process. Every time I

went to meetings after that I thought of what that poster here told me and

I'll be damned if it didn't bring a smile to my face.

That is so funny for me, because, like you, I almost immediately found AA to be a major crock of serious bullshit. I encountered it voluntarily, in detox, where my doctor practiced medical "science" by leading us in group prayer after community step work. Unfortunately, I was somewhat brain-addled at the time, since I'd been drinking like a lunatic for the prior 3 months in particular. But I was sentient enough to know that god talk and group prayer in a secular hospital for a supposedly medical condition was, like, weird.

Then, during the outpatient aftercare at the same facility -- by which time my cognitive skills were well on the rebound -- I told the Stepping director that this was all gonna be deeply problematic for me, since I have no Higher Power, and certainly not one to whom I submit my will or to whom I would confess character defects.

Well, this genius points to the coffee table, and tells me I just have to pick a HP, and that it can be a Styrofoam Cup, just as long as I have one.

And so, um, The Holy Cup is going to restore me to sanity? It hears my sins and removes my character defects? (Shit! Here I had thought its only real ability was heat-retention!)

I lasted three more days after that. Sane people can take only so much lunacy, no matter how desperate they are to stay sober.

--Mona--

[Guest guest]

I found my way

here and received some rather unique advice about snorting into a Styrofoam

cup to take my mind off the attempted indoctrination process. Every time I

went to meetings after that I thought of what that poster here told me and

I'll be damned if it didn't bring a smile to my face.

That is so funny for me, because, like you, I almost immediately found AA to be a major crock of serious bullshit. I encountered it voluntarily, in detox, where my doctor practiced medical "science" by leading us in group prayer after community step work. Unfortunately, I was somewhat brain-addled at the time, since I'd been drinking like a lunatic for the prior 3 months in particular. But I was sentient enough to know that god talk and group prayer in a secular hospital for a supposedly medical condition was, like, weird.

Then, during the outpatient aftercare at the same facility -- by which time my cognitive skills were well on the rebound -- I told the Stepping director that this was all gonna be deeply problematic for me, since I have no Higher Power, and certainly not one to whom I submit my will or to whom I would confess character defects.

Well, this genius points to the coffee table, and tells me I just have to pick a HP, and that it can be a Styrofoam Cup, just as long as I have one.

And so, um, The Holy Cup is going to restore me to sanity? It hears my sins and removes my character defects? (Shit! Here I had thought its only real ability was heat-retention!)

I lasted three more days after that. Sane people can take only so much lunacy, no matter how desperate they are to stay sober.

--Mona--

[Guest guest]

I found my way

here and received some rather unique advice about snorting into a Styrofoam

cup to take my mind off the attempted indoctrination process. Every time I

went to meetings after that I thought of what that poster here told me and

I'll be damned if it didn't bring a smile to my face.

That is so funny for me, because, like you, I almost immediately found AA to be a major crock of serious bullshit. I encountered it voluntarily, in detox, where my doctor practiced medical "science" by leading us in group prayer after community step work. Unfortunately, I was somewhat brain-addled at the time, since I'd been drinking like a lunatic for the prior 3 months in particular. But I was sentient enough to know that god talk and group prayer in a secular hospital for a supposedly medical condition was, like, weird.

Then, during the outpatient aftercare at the same facility -- by which time my cognitive skills were well on the rebound -- I told the Stepping director that this was all gonna be deeply problematic for me, since I have no Higher Power, and certainly not one to whom I submit my will or to whom I would confess character defects.

Well, this genius points to the coffee table, and tells me I just have to pick a HP, and that it can be a Styrofoam Cup, just as long as I have one.

And so, um, The Holy Cup is going to restore me to sanity? It hears my sins and removes my character defects? (Shit! Here I had thought its only real ability was heat-retention!)

I lasted three more days after that. Sane people can take only so much lunacy, no matter how desperate they are to stay sober.

--Mona--

[Guest guest]

Wrong attribution, Nick. It was Mona who offered to help and

steered the person to the Illinois CLU. The poster " mikdan "

criticised her and the original poster, claiming people

are " hypocrites " if they fight against coerced AA when they " agreed "

to attend to stay out of prison.

~Rita

>

> In a message dated 5/8/01 6:51:01 AM, mikdan7@h... writes:

>

> <<

>

> Have you put in a call to the Illinois Civil Liberties Union? If

you like,

> I

>

> would write a letter to them for you, citing case law from the

7th circuit

>

> and other persuasive authority. I'm not admitted in Illinois,

but they

> might

>

> be willing to sponsor my admission to handle just this matter if

they are

> not

>

> willing to take it on themselves.

>

>

> I'd need a copy of the Order, and a few other things we could

discuss by

>

> private email. I'd start with the ICLU first, as this is just

the sort of

>

> case they are there for, and they carry a lot of clout.

>

>

> --Mona-- >>

>

> Loud applause! This is just the kind of assistance people need to

take on the

> steppers in high places.

>

> Nick

[Guest guest]

Wrong attribution, Nick. It was Mona who offered to help and

steered the person to the Illinois CLU. The poster " mikdan "

criticised her and the original poster, claiming people

are " hypocrites " if they fight against coerced AA when they " agreed "

to attend to stay out of prison.

~Rita

>

> In a message dated 5/8/01 6:51:01 AM, mikdan7@h... writes:

>

> <<

>

> Have you put in a call to the Illinois Civil Liberties Union? If

you like,

> I

>

> would write a letter to them for you, citing case law from the

7th circuit

>

> and other persuasive authority. I'm not admitted in Illinois,

but they

> might

>

> be willing to sponsor my admission to handle just this matter if

they are

> not

>

> willing to take it on themselves.

>

>

> I'd need a copy of the Order, and a few other things we could

discuss by

>

> private email. I'd start with the ICLU first, as this is just

the sort of

>

> case they are there for, and they carry a lot of clout.

>

>

> --Mona-- >>

>

> Loud applause! This is just the kind of assistance people need to

take on the

> steppers in high places.

>

> Nick

[Guest guest]

The first thing that comes to my mind when I hear of coercion in

Illinois is how can these people even think they can get away with

this? The Seventh Circuit opinion cannot be clearer in ruling that

coercion is unconstitutional. The Seventh Circuit judges sit right in

the city of Chicago.

http://www.law.emory.edu/FEDCTS/

I think it is time to sue the pants off of whoever are making these

demands on people whether they be the probation officers or whoever. I

am talking about big buck$$$ settlements. How else will these people

be taught that they cannot break federal law.

Anyway, here is the legal kit from RLF. The Duke Law Journal article

is a must-read; it is great.

http://www.aahorror.net/FAQ.htm#lawsuit

Here are the court rulings from my site.

http://www.angelfire.com/journal/forcedaa/court.html

And here is another must-read.

http://peele.net/bookstore/resisting.html

Thanks, Mona, it is heartening to know that you are there and were

able to offer advice so promptly.

Good luck, Harley.

Tommy

http://www.angelfire.com/journal/forcedaa/

> In a message dated 5/7/01 4:12:21 PM US Eastern Standard Time,

> harleygraffix@n... writes:

>

>

> > just recently I learned from my probation officer that I was court

> > ordered to attend AA once a week.

> >

>

> Have you put in a call to the Illinois Civil Liberties Union? If

you like, I

> would write a letter to them for you, citing case law from the 7th

circuit

> and other persuasive authority. I'm not admitted in Illinois, but

they might

> be willing to sponsor my admission to handle just this matter if

they are not

> willing to take it on themselves.

>

> I'd need a copy of the Order, and a few other things we could

discuss by

> private email. I'd start with the ICLU first, as this is just the

sort of

> case they are there for, and they carry a lot of clout.

>

> --Mona--

[Guest guest]

The first thing that comes to my mind when I hear of coercion in

Illinois is how can these people even think they can get away with

this? The Seventh Circuit opinion cannot be clearer in ruling that

coercion is unconstitutional. The Seventh Circuit judges sit right in

the city of Chicago.

http://www.law.emory.edu/FEDCTS/

I think it is time to sue the pants off of whoever are making these

demands on people whether they be the probation officers or whoever. I

am talking about big buck$$$ settlements. How else will these people

be taught that they cannot break federal law.

Anyway, here is the legal kit from RLF. The Duke Law Journal article

is a must-read; it is great.

http://www.aahorror.net/FAQ.htm#lawsuit

Here are the court rulings from my site.

http://www.angelfire.com/journal/forcedaa/court.html

And here is another must-read.

http://peele.net/bookstore/resisting.html

Thanks, Mona, it is heartening to know that you are there and were

able to offer advice so promptly.

Good luck, Harley.

Tommy

http://www.angelfire.com/journal/forcedaa/

> In a message dated 5/7/01 4:12:21 PM US Eastern Standard Time,

> harleygraffix@n... writes:

>

>

> > just recently I learned from my probation officer that I was court

> > ordered to attend AA once a week.

> >

>

> Have you put in a call to the Illinois Civil Liberties Union? If

you like, I

> would write a letter to them for you, citing case law from the 7th

circuit

> and other persuasive authority. I'm not admitted in Illinois, but

they might

> be willing to sponsor my admission to handle just this matter if

they are not

> willing to take it on themselves.

>

> I'd need a copy of the Order, and a few other things we could

discuss by

> private email. I'd start with the ICLU first, as this is just the

sort of

> case they are there for, and they carry a lot of clout.

>

> --Mona--

[Guest guest]

The first thing that comes to my mind when I hear of coercion in

Illinois is how can these people even think they can get away with

this? The Seventh Circuit opinion cannot be clearer in ruling that

coercion is unconstitutional. The Seventh Circuit judges sit right in

the city of Chicago.

http://www.law.emory.edu/FEDCTS/

I think it is time to sue the pants off of whoever are making these

demands on people whether they be the probation officers or whoever. I

am talking about big buck$$$ settlements. How else will these people

be taught that they cannot break federal law.

Anyway, here is the legal kit from RLF. The Duke Law Journal article

is a must-read; it is great.

http://www.aahorror.net/FAQ.htm#lawsuit

Here are the court rulings from my site.

http://www.angelfire.com/journal/forcedaa/court.html

And here is another must-read.

http://peele.net/bookstore/resisting.html

Thanks, Mona, it is heartening to know that you are there and were

able to offer advice so promptly.

Good luck, Harley.

Tommy

http://www.angelfire.com/journal/forcedaa/

> In a message dated 5/7/01 4:12:21 PM US Eastern Standard Time,

> harleygraffix@n... writes:

>

>

> > just recently I learned from my probation officer that I was court

> > ordered to attend AA once a week.

> >

>

> Have you put in a call to the Illinois Civil Liberties Union? If

you like, I

> would write a letter to them for you, citing case law from the 7th

circuit

> and other persuasive authority. I'm not admitted in Illinois, but

they might

> be willing to sponsor my admission to handle just this matter if

they are not

> willing to take it on themselves.

>

> I'd need a copy of the Order, and a few other things we could

discuss by

> private email. I'd start with the ICLU first, as this is just the

sort of

> case they are there for, and they carry a lot of clout.

>

> --Mona--

[Guest guest]

there was never anything signed stating anything about AA.

I did 30 days jail time on a 60 day sentance.

to just assume i signed anything is just plain wrong on your behalf

> It's not right to call it a court order. It is an agreement that

you make, as a condition of probation. If you don't like it, tell the

judge, and tell him that if necessary you will do the jail time.Don't

blame it on the judge, not if you signed the paper saying you would

go there. Anything less is hypocritical.

> Re: forced into AA

>

>

> In a message dated 5/7/01 4:12:21 PM US Eastern Standard Time,

> harleygraffix@n... writes:

>

>

>

> just recently I learned from my probation officer that I was

court

> ordered to attend AA once a week.

>

>

>

> Have you put in a call to the Illinois Civil Liberties Union? If

you like, I

> would write a letter to them for you, citing case law from the

7th circuit

> and other persuasive authority. I'm not admitted in Illinois,

but they might

> be willing to sponsor my admission to handle just this matter if

they are not

> willing to take it on themselves.

>

> I'd need a copy of the Order, and a few other things we could

discuss by

> private email. I'd start with the ICLU first, as this is just

the sort of

> case they are there for, and they carry a lot of clout.

>

> --Mona--

>

[Guest guest]

there was never anything signed stating anything about AA.

I did 30 days jail time on a 60 day sentance.

to just assume i signed anything is just plain wrong on your behalf

> It's not right to call it a court order. It is an agreement that

you make, as a condition of probation. If you don't like it, tell the

judge, and tell him that if necessary you will do the jail time.Don't

blame it on the judge, not if you signed the paper saying you would

go there. Anything less is hypocritical.

> Re: forced into AA

>

>

> In a message dated 5/7/01 4:12:21 PM US Eastern Standard Time,

> harleygraffix@n... writes:

>

>

>

> just recently I learned from my probation officer that I was

court

> ordered to attend AA once a week.

>

>

>

> Have you put in a call to the Illinois Civil Liberties Union? If

you like, I

> would write a letter to them for you, citing case law from the

7th circuit

> and other persuasive authority. I'm not admitted in Illinois,

but they might

> be willing to sponsor my admission to handle just this matter if

they are not

> willing to take it on themselves.

>

> I'd need a copy of the Order, and a few other things we could

discuss by

> private email. I'd start with the ICLU first, as this is just

the sort of

> case they are there for, and they carry a lot of clout.

>

> --Mona--

>

[Guest guest]

I said that it is hypocritical to agree to AA as a condition of probation,

if you are not willing to meet the conditions of probation. I think it is

hypocritical to make ANY kind of agreement with no intent of honoring the

agreement you make. I said they should have told the judge if they objected

to AA, and perhaps make some other kind of probations conditions agreement

with the court. To say Yes sir, I will go to the judge and then beef about

it later makes no sense to me.

Re: forced into AA

>

> Wrong attribution, Nick. It was Mona who offered to help and

> steered the person to the Illinois CLU. The poster " mikdan "

> criticised her and the original poster, claiming people

> are " hypocrites " if they fight against coerced AA when they " agreed "

> to attend to stay out of prison.

>

> ~Rita

>

>

>

> >

> > In a message dated 5/8/01 6:51:01 AM, mikdan7@h... writes:

> >

> > <<

> >

> > Have you put in a call to the Illinois Civil Liberties Union? If

> you like,

> > I

> >

> > would write a letter to them for you, citing case law from the

> 7th circuit

> >

> > and other persuasive authority. I'm not admitted in Illinois,

> but they

> > might

> >

> > be willing to sponsor my admission to handle just this matter if

> they are

> > not

> >

> > willing to take it on themselves.

> >

> >

> > I'd need a copy of the Order, and a few other things we could

> discuss by

> >

> > private email. I'd start with the ICLU first, as this is just

> the sort of

> >

> > case they are there for, and they carry a lot of clout.

> >

> >

> > --Mona-- >>

> >

> > Loud applause! This is just the kind of assistance people need to

> take on the

> > steppers in high places.

> >

> > Nick

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I said that it is hypocritical to agree to AA as a condition of probation,

if you are not willing to meet the conditions of probation. I think it is

hypocritical to make ANY kind of agreement with no intent of honoring the

agreement you make. I said they should have told the judge if they objected

to AA, and perhaps make some other kind of probations conditions agreement

with the court. To say Yes sir, I will go to the judge and then beef about

it later makes no sense to me.

Re: forced into AA

>

> Wrong attribution, Nick. It was Mona who offered to help and

> steered the person to the Illinois CLU. The poster " mikdan "

> criticised her and the original poster, claiming people

> are " hypocrites " if they fight against coerced AA when they " agreed "

> to attend to stay out of prison.

>

> ~Rita

>

>

>

> >

> > In a message dated 5/8/01 6:51:01 AM, mikdan7@h... writes:

> >

> > <<

> >

> > Have you put in a call to the Illinois Civil Liberties Union? If

> you like,

> > I

> >

> > would write a letter to them for you, citing case law from the

> 7th circuit

> >

> > and other persuasive authority. I'm not admitted in Illinois,

> but they

> > might

> >

> > be willing to sponsor my admission to handle just this matter if

> they are

> > not

> >

> > willing to take it on themselves.

> >

> >

> > I'd need a copy of the Order, and a few other things we could

> discuss by

> >

> > private email. I'd start with the ICLU first, as this is just

> the sort of

> >

> > case they are there for, and they carry a lot of clout.

> >

> >

> > --Mona-- >>

> >

> > Loud applause! This is just the kind of assistance people need to

> take on the

> > steppers in high places.

> >

> > Nick

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I assumed you signed some kind of probation agreement. I don't know of any

court which can sentence you to AA against your will. Perhaps I am wrong,

but I thought that these special conditions were always as conditions of

sentence, which the defendant agrees to.However I did say " IF " you signed

a paper agreeing to go, not that you did. Mike.

Re: forced into AA

> >

> >

> > In a message dated 5/7/01 4:12:21 PM US Eastern Standard Time,

> > harleygraffix@n... writes:

> >

> >

> >

> > just recently I learned from my probation officer that I was

> court

> > ordered to attend AA once a week.

> >

> >

> >

> > Have you put in a call to the Illinois Civil Liberties Union? If

> you like, I

> > would write a letter to them for you, citing case law from the

> 7th circuit

> > and other persuasive authority. I'm not admitted in Illinois,

> but they might

> > be willing to sponsor my admission to handle just this matter if

> they are not

> > willing to take it on themselves.

> >

> > I'd need a copy of the Order, and a few other things we could

> discuss by

> > private email. I'd start with the ICLU first, as this is just

> the sort of

> > case they are there for, and they carry a lot of clout.

> >

> > --Mona--

> >

[Guest guest]

I assumed you signed some kind of probation agreement. I don't know of any

court which can sentence you to AA against your will. Perhaps I am wrong,

but I thought that these special conditions were always as conditions of

sentence, which the defendant agrees to.However I did say " IF " you signed

a paper agreeing to go, not that you did. Mike.

Re: forced into AA

> >

> >

> > In a message dated 5/7/01 4:12:21 PM US Eastern Standard Time,

> > harleygraffix@n... writes:

> >

> >

> >

> > just recently I learned from my probation officer that I was

> court

> > ordered to attend AA once a week.

> >

> >

> >

> > Have you put in a call to the Illinois Civil Liberties Union? If

> you like, I

> > would write a letter to them for you, citing case law from the

> 7th circuit

> > and other persuasive authority. I'm not admitted in Illinois,

> but they might

> > be willing to sponsor my admission to handle just this matter if

> they are not

> > willing to take it on themselves.

> >

> > I'd need a copy of the Order, and a few other things we could

> discuss by

> > private email. I'd start with the ICLU first, as this is just

> the sort of

> > case they are there for, and they carry a lot of clout.

> >

> > --Mona--

> >

[Guest guest]

I assumed you signed some kind of probation agreement. I don't know of any

court which can sentence you to AA against your will. Perhaps I am wrong,

but I thought that these special conditions were always as conditions of

sentence, which the defendant agrees to.However I did say " IF " you signed

a paper agreeing to go, not that you did. Mike.

Re: forced into AA

> >

> >

> > In a message dated 5/7/01 4:12:21 PM US Eastern Standard Time,

> > harleygraffix@n... writes:

> >

> >

> >

> > just recently I learned from my probation officer that I was

> court

> > ordered to attend AA once a week.

> >

> >

> >

> > Have you put in a call to the Illinois Civil Liberties Union? If

> you like, I

> > would write a letter to them for you, citing case law from the

> 7th circuit

> > and other persuasive authority. I'm not admitted in Illinois,

> but they might

> > be willing to sponsor my admission to handle just this matter if

> they are not

> > willing to take it on themselves.

> >

> > I'd need a copy of the Order, and a few other things we could

> discuss by

> > private email. I'd start with the ICLU first, as this is just

> the sort of

> > case they are there for, and they carry a lot of clout.

> >

> > --Mona--

> >

[Guest guest]

WOW

I really appreciate all the quick responses on this issue.

And a big hat's off to Tommy and Mona for the offered help and url's

to reference from.

I'll be going tomorrow to have the case motioned up in court to see

what can be done about this.

as some of you have suggested.

my biggest worry now is if they do offer an alternative, how does

someone with no license get there?

guess that'll be on my things to do list. LOL

Anyway it's really a sigh of relief to find others with similar

interests on this issue.

thanx for being here for people in my situation.

i'll let ya know what tomorrow brings.

Harley

> > In a message dated 5/7/01 4:12:21 PM US Eastern Standard Time,

> > harleygraffix@n... writes:

> >

> >

> > > just recently I learned from my probation officer that I was

court

> > > ordered to attend AA once a week.

> > >

> >

> > Have you put in a call to the Illinois Civil Liberties Union? If

> you like, I

> > would write a letter to them for you, citing case law from the

7th

> circuit

> > and other persuasive authority. I'm not admitted in Illinois,

but

> they might

> > be willing to sponsor my admission to handle just this matter if

> they are not

> > willing to take it on themselves.

> >

> > I'd need a copy of the Order, and a few other things we could

> discuss by

> > private email. I'd start with the ICLU first, as this is just

the

> sort of

> > case they are there for, and they carry a lot of clout.

> >

> > --Mona--