Guest guest Posted October 2, 2001 Report Share Posted October 2, 2001 Hi , I have been on both sides of this better or worse stuff. My husband is a recovering alcoholic and a compulsive gambler, for 15 years I have been the main support of our family trying to bail us out of every problem he got us into, I stuck it out because of the better or worse vow. Now he is in recovery but a lot of the scars are still present and I have fibro (which I'm positive that he had a share in causing, due to all the stress) and he is having to do a lot of the work around the house because I just can't anymore. I run my own business and there are days I wonder how I am accomplishing that. In most homes the wife does 100% of everything just because history says that is the way it is, why do women always feel bad because men sometimes have to take on that job. Don't feel guilty, that is what a partnership and marriage is all about. Bernadette He doesn't come out and say it, but I know that he feels cheated, and I know that he now feels " obligated " to me - that old 'for better or for worse, sickness & health' thing. So - how do we learn not to feel guilty about messing up some poor unsuspecting soul's life? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 2, 2001 Report Share Posted October 2, 2001 Jeane wrote: > > My Jim has an interesting outlook on my FMS/MPS . . . he hates my body and > the disease it has. He rages against it. However, he constantly reaffirms > his love for me. He has a way of separating me from my body. It lets him > get out his anger and frustration without directing it at me. wonderful outlook!! > > I do still manage to feel a bit guilty, but my " shrink " keeps reminding me > that guilt is NOT an emotion. Anyway, Jim did know my limitations when we > got married, and he accepted them. It's *not*??!?! I would have said it was. I feel happy we are going to the beach. I feel sad we aren't going to the mountains. I feel guilty that we are going to the beach instead of the mountains as you want to do. It sure seems like an emotion to me. So what *does* your shrink say it is if it isn't an emotion? Darcy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 2, 2001 Report Share Posted October 2, 2001 So what *does* your shrink say it is if it isn't an emotion? When I was seeing mine, he said guilt is not an emotion, but a response...a decision if you will... I agree on both counts. I feel guilty about something all the time, and yet if I really stop for a moment and think, then I can realize that there are so many other responses that I give, so many other things that I can do but feel guilty. We can never really be uplifted and happy if we are constantly guilty about something ya know? Shay Join my new Diabetic Recipes group @ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Recipes4Diabetes God Bless You All, Shay/Shalynn and the rescue gang; Max, Samson I, Samson II, Zeuss, Tazz, Walter, Curly, Ralph, Sebastian, Tina Marie, Bear, Bogie and Jake Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 2, 2001 Report Share Posted October 2, 2001 So what *does* your shrink say it is if it isn't an emotion? When I was seeing mine, he said guilt is not an emotion, but a response...a decision if you will... I agree on both counts. I feel guilty about something all the time, and yet if I really stop for a moment and think, then I can realize that there are so many other responses that I give, so many other things that I can do but feel guilty. We can never really be uplifted and happy if we are constantly guilty about something ya know? Shay Join my new Diabetic Recipes group @ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Recipes4Diabetes God Bless You All, Shay/Shalynn and the rescue gang; Max, Samson I, Samson II, Zeuss, Tazz, Walter, Curly, Ralph, Sebastian, Tina Marie, Bear, Bogie and Jake Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 2, 2001 Report Share Posted October 2, 2001 So what *does* your shrink say it is if it isn't an emotion? When I was seeing mine, he said guilt is not an emotion, but a response...a decision if you will... I agree on both counts. I feel guilty about something all the time, and yet if I really stop for a moment and think, then I can realize that there are so many other responses that I give, so many other things that I can do but feel guilty. We can never really be uplifted and happy if we are constantly guilty about something ya know? Shay Join my new Diabetic Recipes group @ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Recipes4Diabetes God Bless You All, Shay/Shalynn and the rescue gang; Max, Samson I, Samson II, Zeuss, Tazz, Walter, Curly, Ralph, Sebastian, Tina Marie, Bear, Bogie and Jake Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 2, 2001 Report Share Posted October 2, 2001 Guilt is not an emotion - it is a conditioned social response. We must be trained by social norms to feel guilt. > I do still manage to feel a bit guilty, but my " shrink " keeps reminding me > that guilt is NOT an emotion. Anyway, Jim did know my limitations when we > got married, and he accepted them. It's *not*??!?! I would have said it was. I feel happy we are going to the beach. I feel sad we aren't going to the mountains. I feel guilty that we are going to the beach instead of the mountains as you want to do. It sure seems like an emotion to me. So what *does* your shrink say it is if it isn't an emotion? Darcy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 2, 2001 Report Share Posted October 2, 2001 Guilt is not an emotion - it is a conditioned social response. We must be trained by social norms to feel guilt. > I do still manage to feel a bit guilty, but my " shrink " keeps reminding me > that guilt is NOT an emotion. Anyway, Jim did know my limitations when we > got married, and he accepted them. It's *not*??!?! I would have said it was. I feel happy we are going to the beach. I feel sad we aren't going to the mountains. I feel guilty that we are going to the beach instead of the mountains as you want to do. It sure seems like an emotion to me. So what *does* your shrink say it is if it isn't an emotion? Darcy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 2, 2001 Report Share Posted October 2, 2001 " M. LaRoche " wrote: > > Guilt is not an emotion - it is a conditioned social response. We must be trained by social norms to feel guilt. Interesting, I can see part of that, if I don't do what society expects (give to the office gift at a baby shower when everyone else has contributed), where it might be a conditioned social response. I didn't do what society considers the right thing, so I'm " bad " and should feel bad about it. But how about when I feel guilty about something that society has no expectations about? Say, if I pick out the white kitten instead of the gray one? Society in no way " conditions " me to feel badly for choosing a kitten based on color, so it isn't a conditioned response to society. I'm not sure I can agree it is totally not an emotion at all. Darcy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 2, 2001 Report Share Posted October 2, 2001 Darcy, I am not a shrink, but would have to ask about your choice of scenarios and again ask if the " guilt " you experience is something we're taught. Most of us were taught that measuring anyone based on skin color is wrong. Guilt would occur if you felt that this was wrong when you transferred your belief to the picking of an animal. If guilt is a common reaction for many things, look to see if you grew up with anyone that was passive aggressive and tried to manipulate you through these feelings. I'm not saying that most of us haven't felt guilt. That is part of what conscience is all about. By choosing not to Do things we know are wrong, we avoid consequences. One such consequence is guilt. This a valid response to some choices, but we cannot allow this responses to rule our lives, and as such is not a " useful " response. Again, while I took many psychology classes, but I am NOT qualified to tell you about your feelings and responses. As a member of this group, I just wish you peace of mind which cannot come if you are living with a great deal of guilt. I have rambled enough for a newbie on this list. and Lucky http://luckylaroche.homestead.com/files/index.htm Re: Guilt - Darcy Say, if I pick out the white kitten instead of the gray one? Society in no way " conditions " me to feel badly for choosing a kitten based on color, so it isn't a conditioned response to society. I'm not sure I can agree it is totally not an emotion at all. Darcy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 3, 2001 Report Share Posted October 3, 2001 Hi Irene, I don't know why she was so upset. I don't get to the e-mails on the weekend since this is my work computer, so I read her letter wanting to talk about guilt and then her letter about dropping out the same day. I think Yahoo takes awhile to post sometimes, and we didn't have enough time to answer her before she got upset. At least, that's what I think. Joanne --- patidu@... wrote: > Does anyone know why Jo is so upset and > why she was feeling unwanted? > If so I would like to know. Write me off list. > patidu@... As far as I > am concerned you can discuss guilt as I wrote > in another listing. > > Please take care, > Irene > > > > HUH? I thought we had been talking about > guilt? Am I seriously missing > > something? How can you possibly feel > unwanted on this wonderful list? > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > removed] > > __________________________________________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 3, 2001 Report Share Posted October 3, 2001 Hi Irene, I don't know why she was so upset. I don't get to the e-mails on the weekend since this is my work computer, so I read her letter wanting to talk about guilt and then her letter about dropping out the same day. I think Yahoo takes awhile to post sometimes, and we didn't have enough time to answer her before she got upset. At least, that's what I think. Joanne --- patidu@... wrote: > Does anyone know why Jo is so upset and > why she was feeling unwanted? > If so I would like to know. Write me off list. > patidu@... As far as I > am concerned you can discuss guilt as I wrote > in another listing. > > Please take care, > Irene > > > > HUH? I thought we had been talking about > guilt? Am I seriously missing > > something? How can you possibly feel > unwanted on this wonderful list? > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > removed] > > __________________________________________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 3, 2001 Report Share Posted October 3, 2001 Hi Irene, I don't know why she was so upset. I don't get to the e-mails on the weekend since this is my work computer, so I read her letter wanting to talk about guilt and then her letter about dropping out the same day. I think Yahoo takes awhile to post sometimes, and we didn't have enough time to answer her before she got upset. At least, that's what I think. Joanne --- patidu@... wrote: > Does anyone know why Jo is so upset and > why she was feeling unwanted? > If so I would like to know. Write me off list. > patidu@... As far as I > am concerned you can discuss guilt as I wrote > in another listing. > > Please take care, > Irene > > > > HUH? I thought we had been talking about > guilt? Am I seriously missing > > something? How can you possibly feel > unwanted on this wonderful list? > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > removed] > > __________________________________________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 3, 2001 Report Share Posted October 3, 2001 > >It's *not*??!?! I would have said it was. I feel happy we are going to >the beach. I feel sad we aren't going to the mountains. I feel guilty >that we are going to the beach instead of the mountains as you want to >do. It sure seems like an emotion to me. So what *does* your shrink >say it is if it isn't an emotion? said it before me! I might add that guilt is something you " think " about . . . not feel. That's really oversimplified, though. It's taken me nearly a year with this therapist to understand all this. He's very big on FEELING and not THINKING. He's absolutely wonderful! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 3, 2001 Report Share Posted October 3, 2001 > >It's *not*??!?! I would have said it was. I feel happy we are going to >the beach. I feel sad we aren't going to the mountains. I feel guilty >that we are going to the beach instead of the mountains as you want to >do. It sure seems like an emotion to me. So what *does* your shrink >say it is if it isn't an emotion? said it before me! I might add that guilt is something you " think " about . . . not feel. That's really oversimplified, though. It's taken me nearly a year with this therapist to understand all this. He's very big on FEELING and not THINKING. He's absolutely wonderful! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 3, 2001 Report Share Posted October 3, 2001 > >It's *not*??!?! I would have said it was. I feel happy we are going to >the beach. I feel sad we aren't going to the mountains. I feel guilty >that we are going to the beach instead of the mountains as you want to >do. It sure seems like an emotion to me. So what *does* your shrink >say it is if it isn't an emotion? said it before me! I might add that guilt is something you " think " about . . . not feel. That's really oversimplified, though. It's taken me nearly a year with this therapist to understand all this. He's very big on FEELING and not THINKING. He's absolutely wonderful! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 3, 2001 Report Share Posted October 3, 2001 I think guilt is an emotion too. Sometimes we feel guilty when we really have no reason to, so that kind of sounds like an emotion to me. Whatever, it's not a fun feeling. Joanne --- Darcy Stockstill wrote: > > > " M. LaRoche " wrote: > > > > Guilt is not an emotion - it is a conditioned > social response. We must be trained by social > norms to feel guilt. > > Interesting, I can see part of that, if I don't > do what society expects > (give to the office gift at a baby shower when > everyone else has > contributed), where it might be a conditioned > social response. I didn't > do what society considers the right thing, so > I'm " bad " and should feel > bad about it. But how about when I feel guilty > about something that > society has no expectations about? Say, if I > pick out the white kitten > instead of the gray one? Society in no way > " conditions " me to feel > badly for choosing a kitten based on color, so > it isn't a conditioned > response to society. I'm not sure I can agree > it is totally not an > emotion at all. > Darcy > __________________________________________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 3, 2001 Report Share Posted October 3, 2001 " M. LaRoche " wrote: > I am not a shrink, but would have to ask about your choice of scenarios and again ask if the " guilt " you experience is something we're taught. So now my choice of scenarios indicates I have a problem? Sorry, but I don't spend a great deal of time feeling guilty. I just thought it was strange that guilt was being said not to be an emotion when I've heard all of my life that it was. I picked examples that I felt were simple, that would be within everyone's frame of reference, and things that most people either might have felt guilty about at some point in their lives or things most people would clearly never feel guilty about (at least from pressure from society). You can spend all day analyzing which *exact* scenarios and why I picked them, or you can just take them for the random scenarios that they were. > > Most of us were taught that measuring anyone based on skin color is wrong. Guilt would occur if you felt that this was wrong when you transferred your belief to the picking of an animal. Where I grew up, skin color was such a non issue, it didn't even have to be mentioned that basing people on skin color was wrong. Black, white, Asian or Hispanic didn't exist, people were just people. There was no " transference " of guilt on skin color to picking of animals. I just tried to pick an example of something that couldn't possibly be dictated by society, but I guess I was wrong. I felt if I had said " choosing a football instead of a baseball " you could have said " well, society tends to place football as more important than baseball " . Since I didn't grow up picking one skin color as different or better than another, it never occurred to me, that someone might see picking an kitten in one color rather than another, as anything having to do with people's skin color and the guilty society places on you if you do pick people based on skin color. >If guilt is a common reaction for many things, look to see if you grew up >with anyone that was passive aggressive and tried to manipulate you >through these feelings. Guilt is not a common reaction for many things. I guess I just go through life not trying to see hidden meanings in everything and everyone. If you do, then I guess you'll see why I did things much differently than I did. I thought I was participating in an interesting discussion, not getting analyzed on why I did what I did. > > One such consequence is guilt. This a valid response to some choices, >but we cannot allow this responses to rule our lives, and as such is not >a " useful " response. I think guilt can be very useful, but not when it rules your life. > > Again, while I took many psychology classes, but I am NOT qualified to >tell you about your feelings and responses. As a member of this group, I >just wish you peace of mind which cannot come if you are living with a >great deal of guilt. Why is it because I challenged the idea that guilt is not an emotion and gave two small examples to illustrate my points, that you suddenly feel like I'm am riddled with guilt? I am, in no way, living with a great deal of guilt. Darcy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 3, 2001 Report Share Posted October 3, 2001 Jeane wrote: I might add that guilt is something you > " think " about . . . not feel. That's really oversimplified, though. It's > taken me nearly a year with this therapist to understand all this. He's > very big on FEELING and not THINKING. He's absolutely wonderful! After this discussion yesterday, I asked a guy who has been through several shrinks over a number of years what his take was on the matter. He said that it was his understanding that guilt was something that induced emotions. That sounds to me like halfway between guilt is an emotion and it isn't an emotion. Darcy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 3, 2001 Report Share Posted October 3, 2001 I did not mean that YOU had an issue with guilt but that in general the collective we don't always understand the root of the things we do. I live in a very diverse city, and while I was also taught not to judge people by superficial things, I also know that things we see daily help to shape that opinion and that " fighting " against those images (supper thin models etc) is an on going process. I didn't man to offend you by any means, but rather meant to keep an interesting intellectual exercise moving to the next level. Re: Guilt - Darcy So now my choice of scenarios indicates I have a problem? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 3, 2001 Report Share Posted October 3, 2001 Darcy . . . I think you nailed it quite nicely! Thank you! >After this discussion yesterday, I asked a guy who has been through >several shrinks over a number of years what his take was on the matter. >He said that it was his understanding that guilt was something that >induced emotions. That sounds to me like halfway between guilt is an >emotion and it isn't an emotion. Jeane Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 3, 2001 Report Share Posted October 3, 2001 Darcy . . . I think you nailed it quite nicely! Thank you! >After this discussion yesterday, I asked a guy who has been through >several shrinks over a number of years what his take was on the matter. >He said that it was his understanding that guilt was something that >induced emotions. That sounds to me like halfway between guilt is an >emotion and it isn't an emotion. Jeane Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 3, 2001 Report Share Posted October 3, 2001 Darcy . . . I think you nailed it quite nicely! Thank you! >After this discussion yesterday, I asked a guy who has been through >several shrinks over a number of years what his take was on the matter. >He said that it was his understanding that guilt was something that >induced emotions. That sounds to me like halfway between guilt is an >emotion and it isn't an emotion. Jeane Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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