Re: RR/AA

[Guest guest]

I remember learning once on a TV wild animal special that tamed Bears are

very territorial and will bluff their human friends in the following way.

If both are out on a huge open field, the bear will often try to take over

the spot the human is standing on in a very nonchalant backing into it way

as if taking over that particular spot was the last thing on its mind. It

has something to do with bear socialization obviously, and is purposefully

provocative and testing. It has nothing to do with that spot of ground, it

has everything to do with the relationship between the two creatures.

The reason I bring this up is that GrahJAG asking us " why do I keep trying? "

strikes me as similarly provocative, obnoxious, and at the level of

intelligence of a nonhuman organism. It has nothing to do with the answer

to the question. It has everything to do with can GrahJAG really bluff us

into believing he doesn't know why he drinks. That it strikes me this way

may reflect as much or more where I'm coming from as where GrahJAG is coming

from. That could easily have been me speaking close to those very words

twenty five years ago.

Dave Trippel

Re: Re: RR/AA

> Hello,

> Thanks for the info Rita. I did try to get the medication to help with

the

> craving but my insurance said only if I am in a Tx center.

>

> In response to Dave i have had long-term sobriety in the past. When I was

19

> I stayed sober for 3 years and then when I was 24 I stayed sober for 1

year.

> Im 26 now and cant seem to get more than 30 days.

>

> Whats weird about my drinking is its like when Im doing well in my life I

> want to drink. When I dont drink for awhile I start working out, eating

> better so forth. Then my mind starts thinking hey your doing good you can

> handle it, then Im in another mess.

>

> I know I will never be able to drink like so called normal people, but why

do

> I keep trying? this has been a battle for so long Im totally wore out

w/it.

>

> thnks for the input

>

[Guest guest]

I remember learning once on a TV wild animal special that tamed Bears are

very territorial and will bluff their human friends in the following way.

If both are out on a huge open field, the bear will often try to take over

the spot the human is standing on in a very nonchalant backing into it way

as if taking over that particular spot was the last thing on its mind. It

has something to do with bear socialization obviously, and is purposefully

provocative and testing. It has nothing to do with that spot of ground, it

has everything to do with the relationship between the two creatures.

The reason I bring this up is that GrahJAG asking us " why do I keep trying? "

strikes me as similarly provocative, obnoxious, and at the level of

intelligence of a nonhuman organism. It has nothing to do with the answer

to the question. It has everything to do with can GrahJAG really bluff us

into believing he doesn't know why he drinks. That it strikes me this way

may reflect as much or more where I'm coming from as where GrahJAG is coming

from. That could easily have been me speaking close to those very words

twenty five years ago.

Dave Trippel

Re: Re: RR/AA

> Hello,

> Thanks for the info Rita. I did try to get the medication to help with

the

> craving but my insurance said only if I am in a Tx center.

>

> In response to Dave i have had long-term sobriety in the past. When I was

19

> I stayed sober for 3 years and then when I was 24 I stayed sober for 1

year.

> Im 26 now and cant seem to get more than 30 days.

>

> Whats weird about my drinking is its like when Im doing well in my life I

> want to drink. When I dont drink for awhile I start working out, eating

> better so forth. Then my mind starts thinking hey your doing good you can

> handle it, then Im in another mess.

>

> I know I will never be able to drink like so called normal people, but why

do

> I keep trying? this has been a battle for so long Im totally wore out

w/it.

>

> thnks for the input

>

[Guest guest]

I remember learning once on a TV wild animal special that tamed Bears are

very territorial and will bluff their human friends in the following way.

If both are out on a huge open field, the bear will often try to take over

the spot the human is standing on in a very nonchalant backing into it way

as if taking over that particular spot was the last thing on its mind. It

has something to do with bear socialization obviously, and is purposefully

provocative and testing. It has nothing to do with that spot of ground, it

has everything to do with the relationship between the two creatures.

The reason I bring this up is that GrahJAG asking us " why do I keep trying? "

strikes me as similarly provocative, obnoxious, and at the level of

intelligence of a nonhuman organism. It has nothing to do with the answer

to the question. It has everything to do with can GrahJAG really bluff us

into believing he doesn't know why he drinks. That it strikes me this way

may reflect as much or more where I'm coming from as where GrahJAG is coming

from. That could easily have been me speaking close to those very words

twenty five years ago.

Dave Trippel

Re: Re: RR/AA

> Hello,

> Thanks for the info Rita. I did try to get the medication to help with

the

> craving but my insurance said only if I am in a Tx center.

>

> In response to Dave i have had long-term sobriety in the past. When I was

19

> I stayed sober for 3 years and then when I was 24 I stayed sober for 1

year.

> Im 26 now and cant seem to get more than 30 days.

>

> Whats weird about my drinking is its like when Im doing well in my life I

> want to drink. When I dont drink for awhile I start working out, eating

> better so forth. Then my mind starts thinking hey your doing good you can

> handle it, then Im in another mess.

>

> I know I will never be able to drink like so called normal people, but why

do

> I keep trying? this has been a battle for so long Im totally wore out

w/it.

>

> thnks for the input

>

[Guest guest]

Re: Re: RR/AA

>

>

> > Hello,

> > Thanks for the info Rita. I did try to get the medication to help with

> the

> > craving but my insurance said only if I am in a Tx center.

> >

> > In response to Dave i have had long-term sobriety in the past. When I

was

> 19

> > I stayed sober for 3 years and then when I was 24 I stayed sober for 1

> year.

> > Im 26 now and cant seem to get more than 30 days.

> >

> > Whats weird about my drinking is its like when Im doing well in my life

I

> > want to drink. When I dont drink for awhile I start working out, eating

> > better so forth. Then my mind starts thinking hey your doing good you

can

> > handle it, then Im in another mess.

> >

> > I know I will never be able to drink like so called normal people, but

why

> do

> > I keep trying? this has been a battle for so long Im totally wore out

> w/it.

> >

> > thnks for the input

> >

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Re: Re: RR/AA

>

>

> > Hello,

> > Thanks for the info Rita. I did try to get the medication to help with

> the

> > craving but my insurance said only if I am in a Tx center.

> >

> > In response to Dave i have had long-term sobriety in the past. When I

was

> 19

> > I stayed sober for 3 years and then when I was 24 I stayed sober for 1

> year.

> > Im 26 now and cant seem to get more than 30 days.

> >

> > Whats weird about my drinking is its like when Im doing well in my life

I

> > want to drink. When I dont drink for awhile I start working out, eating

> > better so forth. Then my mind starts thinking hey your doing good you

can

> > handle it, then Im in another mess.

> >

> > I know I will never be able to drink like so called normal people, but

why

> do

> > I keep trying? this has been a battle for so long Im totally wore out

> w/it.

> >

> > thnks for the input

> >

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Re: Re: RR/AA

>

>

> > Hello,

> > Thanks for the info Rita. I did try to get the medication to help with

> the

> > craving but my insurance said only if I am in a Tx center.

> >

> > In response to Dave i have had long-term sobriety in the past. When I

was

> 19

> > I stayed sober for 3 years and then when I was 24 I stayed sober for 1

> year.

> > Im 26 now and cant seem to get more than 30 days.

> >

> > Whats weird about my drinking is its like when Im doing well in my life

I

> > want to drink. When I dont drink for awhile I start working out, eating

> > better so forth. Then my mind starts thinking hey your doing good you

can

> > handle it, then Im in another mess.

> >

> > I know I will never be able to drink like so called normal people, but

why

> do

> > I keep trying? this has been a battle for so long Im totally wore out

> w/it.

> >

> > thnks for the input

> >

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

"Been there." Of course I can really only sort of speculate about your actual situation, assuming it might be a little like what mine was.

"why do I keep trying?" -- perhaps because (a) you like the effect of alcohol, not to mention all the social stuff that goes along with drinking, and ( it really doesn't make sense that you should not be able to handle it.

The problem is that usually when we go back to any activity or habit that we have taken time off from, we go back to doing it the same old way. The old mindset wakes up again, the old stimulae produce the old responses, and so on. And having been in treatment and in and out of Da Program, part of the old mindset is likely to be a feeling of being out of control, and all that brainwashing about "powerlessness" and "progressive disease" and "once a pickle, never again a cucumber" etc. etc. etc.

Moral of the story being that if you go back to drinking the odds of having it work out okay go up if you put some planning and effort into the endeavor, and they go down if you do it casually and thoughtlessly.

What you expect to have happen when you drink is very important: if you "know that you will never be able to drink like normal people" then you will probably drink abnormally! But at the same time your mind tells you you can handle it, so your belief is ambivalent. Perhaps you have the ambivalence because your reasons for not drinking are things you got from treatment/AA, and you have in the past done your best to believe all that stuff but found it impossible.

--wally

----- Original Message -----

From: GrahJAG@... [snip]Whats weird about my drinking is its like when Im doing well in my life I want to drink. When I dont drink for awhile I start working out, eating better so forth. Then my mind starts thinking hey your doing good you can handle it, then Im in another mess. I know I will never be able to drink like so called normal people, but why do I keep trying? this has been a battle for so long Im totally wore out w/it. thnks for the input

[Guest guest]

"Been there." Of course I can really only sort of speculate about your actual situation, assuming it might be a little like what mine was.

"why do I keep trying?" -- perhaps because (a) you like the effect of alcohol, not to mention all the social stuff that goes along with drinking, and ( it really doesn't make sense that you should not be able to handle it.

The problem is that usually when we go back to any activity or habit that we have taken time off from, we go back to doing it the same old way. The old mindset wakes up again, the old stimulae produce the old responses, and so on. And having been in treatment and in and out of Da Program, part of the old mindset is likely to be a feeling of being out of control, and all that brainwashing about "powerlessness" and "progressive disease" and "once a pickle, never again a cucumber" etc. etc. etc.

Moral of the story being that if you go back to drinking the odds of having it work out okay go up if you put some planning and effort into the endeavor, and they go down if you do it casually and thoughtlessly.

What you expect to have happen when you drink is very important: if you "know that you will never be able to drink like normal people" then you will probably drink abnormally! But at the same time your mind tells you you can handle it, so your belief is ambivalent. Perhaps you have the ambivalence because your reasons for not drinking are things you got from treatment/AA, and you have in the past done your best to believe all that stuff but found it impossible.

--wally

----- Original Message -----

From: GrahJAG@... [snip]Whats weird about my drinking is its like when Im doing well in my life I want to drink. When I dont drink for awhile I start working out, eating better so forth. Then my mind starts thinking hey your doing good you can handle it, then Im in another mess. I know I will never be able to drink like so called normal people, but why do I keep trying? this has been a battle for so long Im totally wore out w/it. thnks for the input

[Guest guest]

"Been there." Of course I can really only sort of speculate about your actual situation, assuming it might be a little like what mine was.

"why do I keep trying?" -- perhaps because (a) you like the effect of alcohol, not to mention all the social stuff that goes along with drinking, and ( it really doesn't make sense that you should not be able to handle it.

The problem is that usually when we go back to any activity or habit that we have taken time off from, we go back to doing it the same old way. The old mindset wakes up again, the old stimulae produce the old responses, and so on. And having been in treatment and in and out of Da Program, part of the old mindset is likely to be a feeling of being out of control, and all that brainwashing about "powerlessness" and "progressive disease" and "once a pickle, never again a cucumber" etc. etc. etc.

Moral of the story being that if you go back to drinking the odds of having it work out okay go up if you put some planning and effort into the endeavor, and they go down if you do it casually and thoughtlessly.

What you expect to have happen when you drink is very important: if you "know that you will never be able to drink like normal people" then you will probably drink abnormally! But at the same time your mind tells you you can handle it, so your belief is ambivalent. Perhaps you have the ambivalence because your reasons for not drinking are things you got from treatment/AA, and you have in the past done your best to believe all that stuff but found it impossible.

--wally

----- Original Message -----

From: GrahJAG@... [snip]Whats weird about my drinking is its like when Im doing well in my life I want to drink. When I dont drink for awhile I start working out, eating better so forth. Then my mind starts thinking hey your doing good you can handle it, then Im in another mess. I know I will never be able to drink like so called normal people, but why do I keep trying? this has been a battle for so long Im totally wore out w/it. thnks for the input

[Guest guest]

>

> I believed almost totally in AA for my first two years - I had

been

> going to to meetings daily and I felt guilty if I skipped a meeting

just

> once a week so I could do something for myself. I had no compulsion

or

> desire to drink since my first few months after quitting, but I

certainly

> did not believe I could stay sober if I only went to two or three

meetings

> per year.

> It was between two and three years in AA that I started

questioning my

> beliefs (In God [i was an atheist before AA], in the steps, in

various

> other parts of AA dogma), saw more clearly some of the

inconsistencies

> in the literature, and I started reading " outside literature " . It

was over

> the next several years that I found and read books such as " Many

Roads,

> One Journey " and " AA: Cult or Cure? "

> It was about three and a half years in AA when I found SOS and

> attended my first meeting. My feelings were perhaps like a priest

> visiting a whore house for the first time. It was exciting that

these

> people, " alcoholics " and mostly professed atheists, were in a

meeting

> where they were sober, whereas AA had always pounded in my mind that

> " you gotta have a GOD to stay sober " and the existence of this

meeting

> was proving the lie to that. Two of these people had started the

> meeting the year I got sober, so they had the same amount of time

without

> a drink as I did. It felt liberating and satisfying (not in THAT

way,

> but it was a powerful feeling for me), yet I had this nagging fear

that

> God was going to strike me down for going there.

> I didn't go back to SOS very often in those early years - I still

> believed too much of AA, though it became obvious to me (and a few

> of the more 'liberal' friends I had in AA) that I was more and more

> the most heretical person in most any meeting I went to. And a few

> years later when I no longer " believed " in either AA or God, AA was

> my only social outlet other than work. I've always had bad social

> skills, and the only thing AA did for this was tell me to go to AA

> meetings (which are filled with others who have bad social skills

> and/or are very controlling).

>

> -----

> This post (except quoted portions) Copyright 2001, Ben Bradley.

> http://listen.to/benbradley

Thank you for posting this, Ben. This sounds a lot like my history

with them. A big problem I had was that even after I left them I was

still afraid. I really thought that one drink would spell D*O*O*M

for me and my " sober " lifestyle.

I quit AA in 1995 and my drinking finally did escalate again (last

Dec/Jan wasn't so good). But when I thought about what to do about

it, the idea of AA, which was the only thing I knew, was a crazy one

to me. Ugh, I couldn't face it. That's when I started

reading/researching and have found this list and some people like you

for whom AA wasn't the answer. Whew, what a relief!

[Guest guest]

>

> I believed almost totally in AA for my first two years - I had

been

> going to to meetings daily and I felt guilty if I skipped a meeting

just

> once a week so I could do something for myself. I had no compulsion

or

> desire to drink since my first few months after quitting, but I

certainly

> did not believe I could stay sober if I only went to two or three

meetings

> per year.

> It was between two and three years in AA that I started

questioning my

> beliefs (In God [i was an atheist before AA], in the steps, in

various

> other parts of AA dogma), saw more clearly some of the

inconsistencies

> in the literature, and I started reading " outside literature " . It

was over

> the next several years that I found and read books such as " Many

Roads,

> One Journey " and " AA: Cult or Cure? "

> It was about three and a half years in AA when I found SOS and

> attended my first meeting. My feelings were perhaps like a priest

> visiting a whore house for the first time. It was exciting that

these

> people, " alcoholics " and mostly professed atheists, were in a

meeting

> where they were sober, whereas AA had always pounded in my mind that

> " you gotta have a GOD to stay sober " and the existence of this

meeting

> was proving the lie to that. Two of these people had started the

> meeting the year I got sober, so they had the same amount of time

without

> a drink as I did. It felt liberating and satisfying (not in THAT

way,

> but it was a powerful feeling for me), yet I had this nagging fear

that

> God was going to strike me down for going there.

> I didn't go back to SOS very often in those early years - I still

> believed too much of AA, though it became obvious to me (and a few

> of the more 'liberal' friends I had in AA) that I was more and more

> the most heretical person in most any meeting I went to. And a few

> years later when I no longer " believed " in either AA or God, AA was

> my only social outlet other than work. I've always had bad social

> skills, and the only thing AA did for this was tell me to go to AA

> meetings (which are filled with others who have bad social skills

> and/or are very controlling).

>

> -----

> This post (except quoted portions) Copyright 2001, Ben Bradley.

> http://listen.to/benbradley

Thank you for posting this, Ben. This sounds a lot like my history

with them. A big problem I had was that even after I left them I was

still afraid. I really thought that one drink would spell D*O*O*M

for me and my " sober " lifestyle.

I quit AA in 1995 and my drinking finally did escalate again (last

Dec/Jan wasn't so good). But when I thought about what to do about

it, the idea of AA, which was the only thing I knew, was a crazy one

to me. Ugh, I couldn't face it. That's when I started

reading/researching and have found this list and some people like you

for whom AA wasn't the answer. Whew, what a relief!

[Guest guest]

>

> I believed almost totally in AA for my first two years - I had

been

> going to to meetings daily and I felt guilty if I skipped a meeting

just

> once a week so I could do something for myself. I had no compulsion

or

> desire to drink since my first few months after quitting, but I

certainly

> did not believe I could stay sober if I only went to two or three

meetings

> per year.

> It was between two and three years in AA that I started

questioning my

> beliefs (In God [i was an atheist before AA], in the steps, in

various

> other parts of AA dogma), saw more clearly some of the

inconsistencies

> in the literature, and I started reading " outside literature " . It

was over

> the next several years that I found and read books such as " Many

Roads,

> One Journey " and " AA: Cult or Cure? "

> It was about three and a half years in AA when I found SOS and

> attended my first meeting. My feelings were perhaps like a priest

> visiting a whore house for the first time. It was exciting that

these

> people, " alcoholics " and mostly professed atheists, were in a

meeting

> where they were sober, whereas AA had always pounded in my mind that

> " you gotta have a GOD to stay sober " and the existence of this

meeting

> was proving the lie to that. Two of these people had started the

> meeting the year I got sober, so they had the same amount of time

without

> a drink as I did. It felt liberating and satisfying (not in THAT

way,

> but it was a powerful feeling for me), yet I had this nagging fear

that

> God was going to strike me down for going there.

> I didn't go back to SOS very often in those early years - I still

> believed too much of AA, though it became obvious to me (and a few

> of the more 'liberal' friends I had in AA) that I was more and more

> the most heretical person in most any meeting I went to. And a few

> years later when I no longer " believed " in either AA or God, AA was

> my only social outlet other than work. I've always had bad social

> skills, and the only thing AA did for this was tell me to go to AA

> meetings (which are filled with others who have bad social skills

> and/or are very controlling).

>

> -----

> This post (except quoted portions) Copyright 2001, Ben Bradley.

> http://listen.to/benbradley

Thank you for posting this, Ben. This sounds a lot like my history

with them. A big problem I had was that even after I left them I was

still afraid. I really thought that one drink would spell D*O*O*M

for me and my " sober " lifestyle.

I quit AA in 1995 and my drinking finally did escalate again (last

Dec/Jan wasn't so good). But when I thought about what to do about

it, the idea of AA, which was the only thing I knew, was a crazy one

to me. Ugh, I couldn't face it. That's when I started

reading/researching and have found this list and some people like you

for whom AA wasn't the answer. Whew, what a relief!

[Guest guest]

(cont)

There are many ways that AA hurts people. I don't know how common

this is but here is how I believe that it hurt me. I spent years not

caring, and actually enjoyed drinking. As the cost of drinking took

it's toll over the years I became motivated to quit. A " friend "

introduced me to AA, and we would attend various open meetings

together. I soon learned that there were other people like me. That

was the good news. I also learned that I had a disease, an incurable

disease, and that I was somehow morally depraived. Bad news. There

were two choices: Join this depressing cult and become like my

friend, or go on without any hope--give up. Joining these freaks (for

life) was never an option.

My friend was sober as a judge but a very unhappy, neurotic person.

I now know that he was following a script, and was probably

unconciously living the life of a " dry drunk. " He couldn't by into

some of the " spiritial " aspects of the program and was therefore a

condemned man.

He also had a very nasty habit of gossiping about people and

violating confidences. As miserable as he was, he spent lots of time

going to meetings and dragging others along whenever possible. I met

many people like him.

So, I never became a big book thumping stepper. Still, they had

poisoned my mind. I was vulnerable to their propaganda. I had lost

hope and stopped trying to change. This set me back many years.

Jim

[Guest guest]

Hello,

My name is Simon from London and I hope you are OK. I have managed two years

sober. I find it is impossible to be interested in alcohol if I guzzle as

much carbonated water as I can handle (the fizziness gives that good ol'

alcohol throat burn sensation) and have an ice cream.

It sounds simplistic, and it is. I was told much alcohol craving can be

traced back to simple thirst (most people do not drink sufficient fluid, say

urologists) and a need for glucose. Fizzy water and something sugary has

never let me down.

Good luck

Simon

[Guest guest]

Hello,

My name is Simon from London and I hope you are OK. I have managed two years

sober. I find it is impossible to be interested in alcohol if I guzzle as

much carbonated water as I can handle (the fizziness gives that good ol'

alcohol throat burn sensation) and have an ice cream.

It sounds simplistic, and it is. I was told much alcohol craving can be

traced back to simple thirst (most people do not drink sufficient fluid, say

urologists) and a need for glucose. Fizzy water and something sugary has

never let me down.

Good luck

Simon

[Guest guest]

Hello,

My name is Simon from London and I hope you are OK. I have managed two years

sober. I find it is impossible to be interested in alcohol if I guzzle as

much carbonated water as I can handle (the fizziness gives that good ol'

alcohol throat burn sensation) and have an ice cream.

It sounds simplistic, and it is. I was told much alcohol craving can be

traced back to simple thirst (most people do not drink sufficient fluid, say

urologists) and a need for glucose. Fizzy water and something sugary has

never let me down.

Good luck

Simon

[Guest guest]

,

Sorry, I forgot who you were because you weren't using your name earlier

yesterday.

I remember when I wondered why I kept on trying moderation. It wasn't

typical wonderment, though, where I really wanted an answer. It was the

type of wonderment that existed as one segment in a habit cycle in which I

drank attempting to minimize the losses. The wonderment of why did I keep

trying to moderate was a smoke screen to hide the real question - why didn't

I just outright quit for good. I didn't want that question brought up at

all by anyone.

I voiced a yearning for moderation that I might convince and appease others

that I really wasn't looking forward to being drunk, but that I wanted to be

a social drinker. Not true. I knew that when I experienced the effects of

moderate drinking I would almost certainly want more and by then I didn't

care about the negative consequences nearly as much. So it was really a

bluff - wondering why can't I moderate. I didn't really want to drink a

little, I knew I wanted a LOT. Kind of like a big mammal jockeying for

dominance and reassurance of the status quo without violent aggression. I

wanted to maintain a position *different* from the one of taking immediate

and total responsibility for being grossly and wrongfully self indulgent

(for ten years) and immediately quitting for good.

" Why do I keep trying to moderate? " therefore is a warning to others, watch

out, I'm going to try again, but, I'm not being selfish and antisocial, I'm

trying to be very responsible by drinking some more. Here goes. Glug. wait

wait wait, glug wait wait wait, glug, mmm, ohhHHhh, yeaaAAHH, MMmm, here -

it - comes. This is what life's all about, YES.

I now believe everyone knows precisely why they drink or drug. Why *do* you

keep trying?

Dave Trippel

Re: Re: RR/AA

> >

> >

> > > Hello,

> > > Thanks for the info Rita. I did try to get the medication to help

with

> >the

> > > craving but my insurance said only if I am in a Tx center.

> > >

> > > In response to Dave i have had long-term sobriety in the past. When I

> >was

> >19

> > > I stayed sober for 3 years and then when I was 24 I stayed sober for 1

> >year.

> > > Im 26 now and cant seem to get more than 30 days.

> > >

> > > Whats weird about my drinking is its like when Im doing well in my

life

> >I

> > > want to drink. When I dont drink for awhile I start working out,

eating

> > > better so forth. Then my mind starts thinking hey your doing good you

> >can

> > > handle it, then Im in another mess.

> > >

> > > I know I will never be able to drink like so called normal people, but

> >why

> >do

> > > I keep trying? this has been a battle for so long Im totally wore out

> >w/it.

> > >

> > > thnks for the input

> > >

> >

>

> _________________________________________________________________

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>

>

>

[Guest guest]

,

Sorry, I forgot who you were because you weren't using your name earlier

yesterday.

I remember when I wondered why I kept on trying moderation. It wasn't

typical wonderment, though, where I really wanted an answer. It was the

type of wonderment that existed as one segment in a habit cycle in which I

drank attempting to minimize the losses. The wonderment of why did I keep

trying to moderate was a smoke screen to hide the real question - why didn't

I just outright quit for good. I didn't want that question brought up at

all by anyone.

I voiced a yearning for moderation that I might convince and appease others

that I really wasn't looking forward to being drunk, but that I wanted to be

a social drinker. Not true. I knew that when I experienced the effects of

moderate drinking I would almost certainly want more and by then I didn't

care about the negative consequences nearly as much. So it was really a

bluff - wondering why can't I moderate. I didn't really want to drink a

little, I knew I wanted a LOT. Kind of like a big mammal jockeying for

dominance and reassurance of the status quo without violent aggression. I

wanted to maintain a position *different* from the one of taking immediate

and total responsibility for being grossly and wrongfully self indulgent

(for ten years) and immediately quitting for good.

" Why do I keep trying to moderate? " therefore is a warning to others, watch

out, I'm going to try again, but, I'm not being selfish and antisocial, I'm

trying to be very responsible by drinking some more. Here goes. Glug. wait

wait wait, glug wait wait wait, glug, mmm, ohhHHhh, yeaaAAHH, MMmm, here -

it - comes. This is what life's all about, YES.

I now believe everyone knows precisely why they drink or drug. Why *do* you

keep trying?

Dave Trippel

Re: Re: RR/AA

> >

> >

> > > Hello,

> > > Thanks for the info Rita. I did try to get the medication to help

with

> >the

> > > craving but my insurance said only if I am in a Tx center.

> > >

> > > In response to Dave i have had long-term sobriety in the past. When I

> >was

> >19

> > > I stayed sober for 3 years and then when I was 24 I stayed sober for 1

> >year.

> > > Im 26 now and cant seem to get more than 30 days.

> > >

> > > Whats weird about my drinking is its like when Im doing well in my

life

> >I

> > > want to drink. When I dont drink for awhile I start working out,

eating

> > > better so forth. Then my mind starts thinking hey your doing good you

> >can

> > > handle it, then Im in another mess.

> > >

> > > I know I will never be able to drink like so called normal people, but

> >why

> >do

> > > I keep trying? this has been a battle for so long Im totally wore out

> >w/it.

> > >

> > > thnks for the input

> > >

> >

>

> _________________________________________________________________

> Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Your "slip of the keys" is telling. I am sure your shrink does fee. Anyway. The three things she told you sounds accurate but not very helpful (well it is helpful to see why you do it, but not helpful to see how not to do it). You say you are used to dependence (having someone else tell you what to do - like your sponsor or Tx counselor). Not to be offensive, but maybe you never fully grew up (maybe you never had the chance with all the shit you've been through - the Tx I am familiar with never taught me to be independent even though that is what I needed to learn to do and I doubt they taught you that either - so don't blame yourself for that). Independence is a major part of being grown up. Being independent requires telling yourself what to do. You should crave independence, and I am sure you do, although it is scary. After all, you wanted to be independent of your parents - you didn't always want to do what they said. You know that even though they may care about you (I am an optimist) they may not know what is best for you - that you know you know better than them what is good for you. Now, your Tx counselors and AA sponsors surely know less about you than your own parents (again I am an optimist) and so even if they do care about you as much (I am less optimistic about that being the case) they can't possibly know what is best for you. So your best bet is to go on becoming independent. Make your own choices, suffer your own consequences and reap your own rewards. You can do that, and that is what will make you happy, not what will make any of these other people happy. It is much easier to please yourself than others, and much more fulfilling. Believe in yourself. I believe it is hard for you because you are used to that dependence, but you must change that, however hard and scary it is.

Re: Re: RR/AA

Hey, I really appreciate what your saying. I do think that in our own minds we create our reality, meaning if I believe I will get drunk and get in trouble I probably will. So I do believe their is some truth to that. And yes I have a lot of deprogramming to do reguarding AA. I was in and out of that program for 7 years of so. Im fact this last time I drank I called about 6 people from AA. At this piont they dont want to talk to me because "Im just not willing" yeah willing to be controlled. Anyway, I see a therapist and she is so cool. I saw her today and she fees that I keep drinking because, 1.Its a cheap way to have fun (sometimes I do have fun) 2.Its what I know to do when Im under stress. 3.Im trying to change a lot about my life right now and change is scary, drinking is something that feels comfortable to me. Its been hard for me because Im so used of having a sponser or Tx counselor telling me what to do. Again, my therapist feels Ive been institutionalized I have been in 9 Tx centers. Its hard but I hope I quit for good this time.

[Guest guest]

Your "slip of the keys" is telling. I am sure your shrink does fee. Anyway. The three things she told you sounds accurate but not very helpful (well it is helpful to see why you do it, but not helpful to see how not to do it). You say you are used to dependence (having someone else tell you what to do - like your sponsor or Tx counselor). Not to be offensive, but maybe you never fully grew up (maybe you never had the chance with all the shit you've been through - the Tx I am familiar with never taught me to be independent even though that is what I needed to learn to do and I doubt they taught you that either - so don't blame yourself for that). Independence is a major part of being grown up. Being independent requires telling yourself what to do. You should crave independence, and I am sure you do, although it is scary. After all, you wanted to be independent of your parents - you didn't always want to do what they said. You know that even though they may care about you (I am an optimist) they may not know what is best for you - that you know you know better than them what is good for you. Now, your Tx counselors and AA sponsors surely know less about you than your own parents (again I am an optimist) and so even if they do care about you as much (I am less optimistic about that being the case) they can't possibly know what is best for you. So your best bet is to go on becoming independent. Make your own choices, suffer your own consequences and reap your own rewards. You can do that, and that is what will make you happy, not what will make any of these other people happy. It is much easier to please yourself than others, and much more fulfilling. Believe in yourself. I believe it is hard for you because you are used to that dependence, but you must change that, however hard and scary it is.

Re: Re: RR/AA

Hey, I really appreciate what your saying. I do think that in our own minds we create our reality, meaning if I believe I will get drunk and get in trouble I probably will. So I do believe their is some truth to that. And yes I have a lot of deprogramming to do reguarding AA. I was in and out of that program for 7 years of so. Im fact this last time I drank I called about 6 people from AA. At this piont they dont want to talk to me because "Im just not willing" yeah willing to be controlled. Anyway, I see a therapist and she is so cool. I saw her today and she fees that I keep drinking because, 1.Its a cheap way to have fun (sometimes I do have fun) 2.Its what I know to do when Im under stress. 3.Im trying to change a lot about my life right now and change is scary, drinking is something that feels comfortable to me. Its been hard for me because Im so used of having a sponser or Tx counselor telling me what to do. Again, my therapist feels Ive been institutionalized I have been in 9 Tx centers. Its hard but I hope I quit for good this time.

[Guest guest]

Your "slip of the keys" is telling. I am sure your shrink does fee. Anyway. The three things she told you sounds accurate but not very helpful (well it is helpful to see why you do it, but not helpful to see how not to do it). You say you are used to dependence (having someone else tell you what to do - like your sponsor or Tx counselor). Not to be offensive, but maybe you never fully grew up (maybe you never had the chance with all the shit you've been through - the Tx I am familiar with never taught me to be independent even though that is what I needed to learn to do and I doubt they taught you that either - so don't blame yourself for that). Independence is a major part of being grown up. Being independent requires telling yourself what to do. You should crave independence, and I am sure you do, although it is scary. After all, you wanted to be independent of your parents - you didn't always want to do what they said. You know that even though they may care about you (I am an optimist) they may not know what is best for you - that you know you know better than them what is good for you. Now, your Tx counselors and AA sponsors surely know less about you than your own parents (again I am an optimist) and so even if they do care about you as much (I am less optimistic about that being the case) they can't possibly know what is best for you. So your best bet is to go on becoming independent. Make your own choices, suffer your own consequences and reap your own rewards. You can do that, and that is what will make you happy, not what will make any of these other people happy. It is much easier to please yourself than others, and much more fulfilling. Believe in yourself. I believe it is hard for you because you are used to that dependence, but you must change that, however hard and scary it is.

Re: Re: RR/AA

Hey, I really appreciate what your saying. I do think that in our own minds we create our reality, meaning if I believe I will get drunk and get in trouble I probably will. So I do believe their is some truth to that. And yes I have a lot of deprogramming to do reguarding AA. I was in and out of that program for 7 years of so. Im fact this last time I drank I called about 6 people from AA. At this piont they dont want to talk to me because "Im just not willing" yeah willing to be controlled. Anyway, I see a therapist and she is so cool. I saw her today and she fees that I keep drinking because, 1.Its a cheap way to have fun (sometimes I do have fun) 2.Its what I know to do when Im under stress. 3.Im trying to change a lot about my life right now and change is scary, drinking is something that feels comfortable to me. Its been hard for me because Im so used of having a sponser or Tx counselor telling me what to do. Again, my therapist feels Ive been institutionalized I have been in 9 Tx centers. Its hard but I hope I quit for good this time.

[Guest guest]

Hello Dave,

Its .

Well i havent been trying to moderate (well perhaps the thought crossed my mind) no Ive actually been trying to quit.

I think the reason I have continued "trying" is because Im so used of doing it.

But to be honest I really dont know exactly why. Im trying to figure that out.

I feel pretty good today although I did end up drinking Friday and I am just now starting to feel better. I make it to school and work but Im still quit embarrased that I would do this again. (When I drink I do some pretty stuoid things).

So Im still trying to figure it out.

jennifer

[Guest guest]

Hello Dave,

Its .

Well i havent been trying to moderate (well perhaps the thought crossed my mind) no Ive actually been trying to quit.

I think the reason I have continued "trying" is because Im so used of doing it.

But to be honest I really dont know exactly why. Im trying to figure that out.

I feel pretty good today although I did end up drinking Friday and I am just now starting to feel better. I make it to school and work but Im still quit embarrased that I would do this again. (When I drink I do some pretty stuoid things).

So Im still trying to figure it out.

jennifer

[Guest guest]

Hello Dave,

Its .

Well i havent been trying to moderate (well perhaps the thought crossed my mind) no Ive actually been trying to quit.

I think the reason I have continued "trying" is because Im so used of doing it.

But to be honest I really dont know exactly why. Im trying to figure that out.

I feel pretty good today although I did end up drinking Friday and I am just now starting to feel better. I make it to school and work but Im still quit embarrased that I would do this again. (When I drink I do some pretty stuoid things).

So Im still trying to figure it out.

jennifer

[Guest guest]

Hello,

Very true. Iam the youngest of eight children and was raised in a hispanic home. My father passed away when I was 4 and my mother became very suffocating (still is).

I am getting better though.