Re: RR/AA

February 19, 2001

Re: RR/AA

>

> >

> > I agree with everything except that I've never met a non-stupid

> animal.

> > We're obviously using different definitions of " stupid " .

>

> Definitely! In my dictionary, " stupid " is: " a: slow of mind: obtuse

> b: given to unintelligent decisions or acts : acting in an

> unintelligent or careless manner... " This is all stuff that people

> get up to.

>

> I do agree that people have a base side to them, and that there is a

> part of us that urges us to act against our best interests. I just

> think that the " beast " metaphor is an unfortunate one. Beasts don't

> act that way! Excepting, perhaps, domestic or caged animals. [i too

> have a cat that is WAY overweight. She doesn't drink though!]

>

> I have a problem with it on another level too. It seems like by

> assigning responsibility to the " beast " for our lower impulses and

> making it into an " it/other, " then this isn't part of us anymore.

> Therefore, we aren't responsible for the acts of this " other. " (?) It

> isn't us right?

>

> I haven't read RR lit for awhile...does it address this?

Yes.

>

> > Related circumstances leading up to the deciding may occur for

> quite a

> > while, but the deciding itself, that moment of decision, the event

> of

> > recovery, is actually much easier than the animal side of our

> nature would

> > have us believe. It does take self-knowledge and determination, but

> most

> > preparation and especially support

>

> I am curious--why bother to be on a list like this then?

I'm active against AA. I was in it all through the 80's having originally

been " forced " by " the system " . I used RR to get out in 1991.

>You are

> over it, you've made your decision, you're done.

>

> AA has definitely tainted the word " support " for me, but I still want

> to have some sort of feeling that I am not the ONLY person I know

> that isn't an AA zombie. So, just reading a list like this is

> generally supportive.

>

> And regarding preparation, I think we are also differing on our

> definitions!!! If I had " prepared " the first time around and done my

> homework, I probably wouldn't have been sucked into AA in the first

> place. I would have found out about other programs and picked one

> that was more compatible with my belief system.

>

> are bugaboos that taint the obvious

> > simplicity of deciding to never do something very specific and

> unrelated to

> > survival. If one concludes there is only one real reason to

> drink/drug,

> > then there is only one " thing that can interfere " . I would use

> the term

> > " recalled " rather than " reaffirmed " . A person will obviously

> consciously

> > recall the decision when the opportunity or thought of drinking

> comes along,

> > although reaffirm works too.

>

> I certainly recall more decisions than I ever reaffirmed!!!

> >

> > I don't think it can be proven that a decision to never do

> something can be

> > anything BUT a singular event. I would even add quick and easy,

> compared to

> > the alternatives.

>

> Well, we will have to agree to disagree on this. In my personal

> experience, the only thing more transforming than getting sober was

> having my kids.

>

> Cheers,

>

I think you're associating singular event with unmeaningful event. To the

contrary, the event is the kickoff for whatever transformation you choose.

No

programs leading you by the nose. Truly awesome.

Dave Trippel

February 19, 2001

> I do agree that people have a base side to them, and that there is a

> part of us that urges us to act against our best interests. I just

> think that the " beast " metaphor is an unfortunate one. Beasts don't

> act that way! Excepting, perhaps, domestic or caged animals. [i

too

> have a cat that is WAY overweight. She doesn't drink though!]

If you provided alcohol though, she might. In fact all manner of

critters from chimpanzees to elephants can be observed getting totally

blotto on over-ripe fruit . In addition birds will get loaded on

berries, and I saw a wildlife program on robins that showed that

showed them getting wasted by comsuming creosote off a garden fence.

Obesity isnt a problem for wild animals solely because they have to

find and/or catch whetever they eat; if we now had to hunt down by

hand cattle every time we wanted a burger, then humans wouldnt get

obese either. Mexican Pima First Amercians who live a traditional

life suffer almost no obesity or diabetes; among the genetically

similar Arizona Pima it is rife. Inm the amazingly topsy-turvy world

viewe of addiction that dominates western and especially AMerican

culture, this dramatic demonstration of the vastly greater

siginificance of environment over genetics in the onset of obesity is

actually quoted as showing the reverse!

P.

February 19, 2001

>

> > I do agree that people have a base side to them, and that there

is a

> > part of us that urges us to act against our best interests. I

just

> > think that the " beast " metaphor is an unfortunate one. Beasts

don't

> > act that way! Excepting, perhaps, domestic or caged animals. [i

> too

> > have a cat that is WAY overweight. She doesn't drink though!]

>

> If you provided alcohol though, she might. In fact all manner of

> critters from chimpanzees to elephants can be observed getting

totally

> blotto on over-ripe fruit . In addition birds will get loaded on

> berries, and I saw a wildlife program on robins that showed that

> showed them getting wasted by comsuming creosote off a garden fence.

LOL! Well, I stand corrected!!! I wonder how those robins figured

that out?!

February 19, 2001

>

> > I do agree that people have a base side to them, and that there

is a

> > part of us that urges us to act against our best interests. I

just

> > think that the " beast " metaphor is an unfortunate one. Beasts

don't

> > act that way! Excepting, perhaps, domestic or caged animals. [i

> too

> > have a cat that is WAY overweight. She doesn't drink though!]

>

> If you provided alcohol though, she might. In fact all manner of

> critters from chimpanzees to elephants can be observed getting

totally

> blotto on over-ripe fruit . In addition birds will get loaded on

> berries, and I saw a wildlife program on robins that showed that

> showed them getting wasted by comsuming creosote off a garden fence.

LOL! Well, I stand corrected!!! I wonder how those robins figured

that out?!

February 19, 2001

>

> > I do agree that people have a base side to them, and that there

is a

> > part of us that urges us to act against our best interests. I

just

> > think that the " beast " metaphor is an unfortunate one. Beasts

don't

> > act that way! Excepting, perhaps, domestic or caged animals. [i

> too

> > have a cat that is WAY overweight. She doesn't drink though!]

>

> If you provided alcohol though, she might. In fact all manner of

> critters from chimpanzees to elephants can be observed getting

totally

> blotto on over-ripe fruit . In addition birds will get loaded on

> berries, and I saw a wildlife program on robins that showed that

> showed them getting wasted by comsuming creosote off a garden fence.

LOL! Well, I stand corrected!!! I wonder how those robins figured

that out?!

February 19, 2001

>

> Re: RR/AA

>

> I'm active against AA. I was in it all through the 80's having

originally

> been " forced " by " the system " . I used RR to get out in 1991.

I'm glad RR has worked for you. I am also against AA. In the past I

have felt, " Oh well, if AA works for you, then great. " Now I feel

harsher toward AA and it's ideas/ideals. I've posted a lot about

that already.

RR doesn't work for me either, though. I don't believe that total

and unconditional abstinence is right for me in my life. Total and

unconditional abstinence may be just great for you--it is your

choice. But, allow me mine.

I've learned to trust my own judgment in this matter. Yes, it is

very freeing not to have a " program leading me by the nose. "

February 19, 2001

>

> Re: RR/AA

>

> I'm active against AA. I was in it all through the 80's having

originally

> been " forced " by " the system " . I used RR to get out in 1991.

I'm glad RR has worked for you. I am also against AA. In the past I

have felt, " Oh well, if AA works for you, then great. " Now I feel

harsher toward AA and it's ideas/ideals. I've posted a lot about

that already.

RR doesn't work for me either, though. I don't believe that total

and unconditional abstinence is right for me in my life. Total and

unconditional abstinence may be just great for you--it is your

choice. But, allow me mine.

I've learned to trust my own judgment in this matter. Yes, it is

very freeing not to have a " program leading me by the nose. "

February 19, 2001

>

> Re: RR/AA

>

> I'm active against AA. I was in it all through the 80's having

originally

> been " forced " by " the system " . I used RR to get out in 1991.

I'm glad RR has worked for you. I am also against AA. In the past I

have felt, " Oh well, if AA works for you, then great. " Now I feel

harsher toward AA and it's ideas/ideals. I've posted a lot about

that already.

RR doesn't work for me either, though. I don't believe that total

and unconditional abstinence is right for me in my life. Total and

unconditional abstinence may be just great for you--it is your

choice. But, allow me mine.

I've learned to trust my own judgment in this matter. Yes, it is

very freeing not to have a " program leading me by the nose. "

February 20, 2001

>

> >i no longer needed to vandalize my self-portrait

>

> Good account Azure. I like your writing style too. Thanks!

> I have not noticed you posting to 12-step free before. Welcome.

> You've been a lot of fun to read on alt.recovery.from-12-steps.

thanks, .

i must confess, however (sigh!) that you have been a bit of a

disappointment to me. i waited with baited breath to find out the

lurid, stunning revelations about you that were (i was assured)

forthcoming on that groundbreaking exposé site... the horrific

betrayals, the stalkings, the firstborn children you had murdered,

etc. i think i fell asleep waiting...

azure,

thinking about Rhett 's

line in Gone With The Wind...

" the dogs bark, but the

caravan passes on. "

February 20, 2001

>

> >i no longer needed to vandalize my self-portrait

>

> Good account Azure. I like your writing style too. Thanks!

> I have not noticed you posting to 12-step free before. Welcome.

> You've been a lot of fun to read on alt.recovery.from-12-steps.

thanks, .

i must confess, however (sigh!) that you have been a bit of a

disappointment to me. i waited with baited breath to find out the

lurid, stunning revelations about you that were (i was assured)

forthcoming on that groundbreaking exposé site... the horrific

betrayals, the stalkings, the firstborn children you had murdered,

etc. i think i fell asleep waiting...

azure,

thinking about Rhett 's

line in Gone With The Wind...

" the dogs bark, but the

caravan passes on. "

February 20, 2001

>

> >i no longer needed to vandalize my self-portrait

>

> Good account Azure. I like your writing style too. Thanks!

> I have not noticed you posting to 12-step free before. Welcome.

> You've been a lot of fun to read on alt.recovery.from-12-steps.

thanks, .

i must confess, however (sigh!) that you have been a bit of a

disappointment to me. i waited with baited breath to find out the

lurid, stunning revelations about you that were (i was assured)

forthcoming on that groundbreaking exposé site... the horrific

betrayals, the stalkings, the firstborn children you had murdered,

etc. i think i fell asleep waiting...

azure,

thinking about Rhett 's

line in Gone With The Wind...

" the dogs bark, but the

caravan passes on. "

February 20, 2001

> > i was no longer under the crucial

> >illusion that losing control and acting out would have made me in

any

> >way more " interesting " or worthy of attention or love -- quite the

> >contrary -- despite the way our culture fawns on the Drew

Barrymores

> >and the Downeys.

>

> I think this is very important. This point has been made before,

> but it's so crucial that I want to emphasize it. This 12-step

> disease crap paints a bizarre portrait of " heroic " people who

> are valiantly battling addiction and getting all kinds of

> attention in the process -- it's hardly an unappealing role.

i agree.

first, its a human trait to find heroes to look up to. if we abandon

one set of criteria for defining heroes, we will find other

criteria. i think it's important to take a good look at why we are

lifing someone up to hero status.

second... yes, the attention one can receive for " being a problem "

can really feed the problem.

azure

February 20, 2001

> > i was no longer under the crucial

> >illusion that losing control and acting out would have made me in

any

> >way more " interesting " or worthy of attention or love -- quite the

> >contrary -- despite the way our culture fawns on the Drew

Barrymores

> >and the Downeys.

>

> I think this is very important. This point has been made before,

> but it's so crucial that I want to emphasize it. This 12-step

> disease crap paints a bizarre portrait of " heroic " people who

> are valiantly battling addiction and getting all kinds of

> attention in the process -- it's hardly an unappealing role.

i agree.

first, its a human trait to find heroes to look up to. if we abandon

one set of criteria for defining heroes, we will find other

criteria. i think it's important to take a good look at why we are

lifing someone up to hero status.

second... yes, the attention one can receive for " being a problem "

can really feed the problem.

azure

February 20, 2001

> > i was no longer under the crucial

> >illusion that losing control and acting out would have made me in

any

> >way more " interesting " or worthy of attention or love -- quite the

> >contrary -- despite the way our culture fawns on the Drew

Barrymores

> >and the Downeys.

>

> I think this is very important. This point has been made before,

> but it's so crucial that I want to emphasize it. This 12-step

> disease crap paints a bizarre portrait of " heroic " people who

> are valiantly battling addiction and getting all kinds of

> attention in the process -- it's hardly an unappealing role.

i agree.

first, its a human trait to find heroes to look up to. if we abandon

one set of criteria for defining heroes, we will find other

criteria. i think it's important to take a good look at why we are

lifing someone up to hero status.

second... yes, the attention one can receive for " being a problem "

can really feed the problem.

azure

February 20, 2001

In a message dated 2/17/2001 12:48:49 AM Pacific Standard Time,

davetrippel@... writes:

<< All your comments point towards number two and not number one. Even your

comment, " no I've actually been trying to quit " is closer to Two. I read

it " no I've actually been avoiding quitting " because quitting for good is a

one-time event that cannot really be " tried " , although you can easily think

about it right now. >>

I'm certainly glad I didn't reveal to you anything about

myself. How absolutely pompous and doctrinaire. Piper

February 20, 2001

In a message dated 2/18/2001 7:33:03 AM Pacific Standard Time,

davetrippel@... writes:

<< I just can't agree with this. Deciding to remain abstinent is not a

> quick, easy or singular event. It takes preparation, self-knowledge,

> and support as well as determination. Especially in the beginning,

> there are many things that can interfere with this and a maintenance

> phase where a person consciously reaffirms the decision is

> crucial. It isn't a one-time deal and it isn't an act of

> powerlessness.

>

Related circumstances leading up to the deciding may occur for quite a

while, but the deciding itself, that moment of decision, the event of

recovery, is actually much easier than the animal side of our nature would

have us believe. It does take self-knowledge and determination, but most

preparation and especially support are bugaboos that taint the obvious

simplicity of deciding to never do something very specific and unrelated to

survival. If one concludes there is only one real reason to drink/drug,

then there is only one " thing that can interfere " . I would use the term

" recalled " rather than " reaffirmed " . A person will obviously consciously

recall the decision when the opportunity or thought of drinking comes along,

although reaffirm works too.

I don't think it can be proven that a decision to never do something can be

anything BUT a singular event. I would even add quick and easy, compared to

the alternatives.

Dave Trippel

This wouldn't be Mr. Jack Trimpey now would it??? Gosh some

people sound so much like other people, I swear. Piper

> >>

February 20, 2001