Re: RR/AA

[Guest guest]

Hello,

Very true. Iam the youngest of eight children and was raised in a hispanic home. My father passed away when I was 4 and my mother became very suffocating (still is).

I am getting better though.

[Guest guest]

Hello,

Very true. Iam the youngest of eight children and was raised in a hispanic home. My father passed away when I was 4 and my mother became very suffocating (still is).

I am getting better though.

[Guest guest]

Hey,

Man calm down.

I have tried for years and years to drink socially. I totallly dont belive in AA. But I do think and believe frome experience that I have a genetic and chemical problem in my body, brain and more but I am still learning about it.

I hate getting drunk and stupid and aside from what you believe I dont think saying Im an alcoholic excuses my behavior. I am ashamed of my behavior and would do anything to have it stop. So theres my 2 cents.

[Guest guest]

Hey,

Man calm down.

I have tried for years and years to drink socially. I totallly dont belive in AA. But I do think and believe frome experience that I have a genetic and chemical problem in my body, brain and more but I am still learning about it.

I hate getting drunk and stupid and aside from what you believe I dont think saying Im an alcoholic excuses my behavior. I am ashamed of my behavior and would do anything to have it stop. So theres my 2 cents.

[Guest guest]

Hey,

Man calm down.

I have tried for years and years to drink socially. I totallly dont belive in AA. But I do think and believe frome experience that I have a genetic and chemical problem in my body, brain and more but I am still learning about it.

I hate getting drunk and stupid and aside from what you believe I dont think saying Im an alcoholic excuses my behavior. I am ashamed of my behavior and would do anything to have it stop. So theres my 2 cents.

[Guest guest]

Re: Re: RR/AA

> Hello Dave,

>

> Its .

>

> Well i havent been trying to moderate (well perhaps the thought crossed my

> mind) no Ive actually been trying to quit.

>

> I think the reason I have continued " trying " is because Im so used of

doing

> it.

>

> But to be honest I really dont know exactly why. Im trying to figure that

> out.

>

> I feel pretty good today although I did end up drinking Friday and I am

just

> now starting to feel better. I make it to school and work but Im still

quit

> embarrased that I would do this again. (When I drink I do some pretty

stuoid

> things).

>

> So Im still trying to figure it out.

>

> jennifer

>

Hi ,

That's quite a tossed salad of comments garnished with a " trying " dressing.

In order to make sense of it I charge the issue with the two extreme

opposing courses of action

One - Making a decision to quit for good

Two - Claiming diseased incompetence on quitting which justifies future

drinking whenever convenient

All your comments point towards number two and not number one. Even your

comment, " no I've actually been trying to quit " is closer to Two. I read

it " no I've actually been avoiding quitting " because quitting for good is a

one-time event that cannot really be " tried " , although you can easily think

about it right now.

Think about really really really quitting for good . . . . . . . . . .

Isn't there also something enthralling about that magnificent VOID you have

just created in your mind about your future? . . . . . . . . . " Never drink

as long as I live? . . . . No matter what happens? WOW! " . . . (#1)

But isn't it also scary? . . . . . . EEEEEEK! " . . . . . (#2) Number two is

the way animals and 12 steppers live. While malignant 12 steppers are slick,

sly, and sleezy; animals are just plain stupid. We all have a lot of

motivations in common with animals, pleasure seeking being the greatest.

(Look at the midriff of the average American.)

Number one, on the other hand, is a quick, singular event which no one else

can ever truly know that you have experienced, but you cannot avoid knowing

you've experienced. You are absolutely capable of perfect success by going

through with it if and when you decide to cure yourself of the problem.

Future moderation might not guarantee failure, but I would not call it a

cure for the problems related to drinking.

Dave Trippel

[Guest guest]

Re: Re: RR/AA

> Hello Dave,

>

> Its .

>

> Well i havent been trying to moderate (well perhaps the thought crossed my

> mind) no Ive actually been trying to quit.

>

> I think the reason I have continued " trying " is because Im so used of

doing

> it.

>

> But to be honest I really dont know exactly why. Im trying to figure that

> out.

>

> I feel pretty good today although I did end up drinking Friday and I am

just

> now starting to feel better. I make it to school and work but Im still

quit

> embarrased that I would do this again. (When I drink I do some pretty

stuoid

> things).

>

> So Im still trying to figure it out.

>

> jennifer

>

Hi ,

That's quite a tossed salad of comments garnished with a " trying " dressing.

In order to make sense of it I charge the issue with the two extreme

opposing courses of action

One - Making a decision to quit for good

Two - Claiming diseased incompetence on quitting which justifies future

drinking whenever convenient

All your comments point towards number two and not number one. Even your

comment, " no I've actually been trying to quit " is closer to Two. I read

it " no I've actually been avoiding quitting " because quitting for good is a

one-time event that cannot really be " tried " , although you can easily think

about it right now.

Think about really really really quitting for good . . . . . . . . . .

Isn't there also something enthralling about that magnificent VOID you have

just created in your mind about your future? . . . . . . . . . " Never drink

as long as I live? . . . . No matter what happens? WOW! " . . . (#1)

But isn't it also scary? . . . . . . EEEEEEK! " . . . . . (#2) Number two is

the way animals and 12 steppers live. While malignant 12 steppers are slick,

sly, and sleezy; animals are just plain stupid. We all have a lot of

motivations in common with animals, pleasure seeking being the greatest.

(Look at the midriff of the average American.)

Number one, on the other hand, is a quick, singular event which no one else

can ever truly know that you have experienced, but you cannot avoid knowing

you've experienced. You are absolutely capable of perfect success by going

through with it if and when you decide to cure yourself of the problem.

Future moderation might not guarantee failure, but I would not call it a

cure for the problems related to drinking.

Dave Trippel

[Guest guest]

Re: Re: RR/AA

> Hello Dave,

>

> Its .

>

> Well i havent been trying to moderate (well perhaps the thought crossed my

> mind) no Ive actually been trying to quit.

>

> I think the reason I have continued " trying " is because Im so used of

doing

> it.

>

> But to be honest I really dont know exactly why. Im trying to figure that

> out.

>

> I feel pretty good today although I did end up drinking Friday and I am

just

> now starting to feel better. I make it to school and work but Im still

quit

> embarrased that I would do this again. (When I drink I do some pretty

stuoid

> things).

>

> So Im still trying to figure it out.

>

> jennifer

>

Hi ,

That's quite a tossed salad of comments garnished with a " trying " dressing.

In order to make sense of it I charge the issue with the two extreme

opposing courses of action

One - Making a decision to quit for good

Two - Claiming diseased incompetence on quitting which justifies future

drinking whenever convenient

All your comments point towards number two and not number one. Even your

comment, " no I've actually been trying to quit " is closer to Two. I read

it " no I've actually been avoiding quitting " because quitting for good is a

one-time event that cannot really be " tried " , although you can easily think

about it right now.

Think about really really really quitting for good . . . . . . . . . .

Isn't there also something enthralling about that magnificent VOID you have

just created in your mind about your future? . . . . . . . . . " Never drink

as long as I live? . . . . No matter what happens? WOW! " . . . (#1)

But isn't it also scary? . . . . . . EEEEEEK! " . . . . . (#2) Number two is

the way animals and 12 steppers live. While malignant 12 steppers are slick,

sly, and sleezy; animals are just plain stupid. We all have a lot of

motivations in common with animals, pleasure seeking being the greatest.

(Look at the midriff of the average American.)

Number one, on the other hand, is a quick, singular event which no one else

can ever truly know that you have experienced, but you cannot avoid knowing

you've experienced. You are absolutely capable of perfect success by going

through with it if and when you decide to cure yourself of the problem.

Future moderation might not guarantee failure, but I would not call it a

cure for the problems related to drinking.

Dave Trippel

[Guest guest]

Been there done that.

I said the same things. What I learned though is

1) there was nothing wrong with me, chemically or genetically, and I suspect

there's nothing wrong with you either. This false belief that there's

something wrong with me (which comes from AA) is what allowed me to continue.

2) there's a big difference between wanting to stop drinking and wanting to

stop the problems associated with excessive drinking. Don't mix them up. I

wanted to drink but I didn't want to wreck the car, while swearing to God

that I wanted to stop drinking...but I didn't...it's very pleasureable.

3) when I was reaching into my wallet, counting my money, going to the liquor

store, planning my lies in case I was late for or missed work etc, etc...it

was ME choosing this behavior because of the pleasure I hoped to gain. Think

about it. Genetic and chemical diseases don't count money to buy

booze...people do.

There's an old joke of a guy running to his doctor saying " doc, it hurts when

I do that " , and the doctor replied " well don't do that " .

3)

[Guest guest]

Been there done that.

I said the same things. What I learned though is

1) there was nothing wrong with me, chemically or genetically, and I suspect

there's nothing wrong with you either. This false belief that there's

something wrong with me (which comes from AA) is what allowed me to continue.

2) there's a big difference between wanting to stop drinking and wanting to

stop the problems associated with excessive drinking. Don't mix them up. I

wanted to drink but I didn't want to wreck the car, while swearing to God

that I wanted to stop drinking...but I didn't...it's very pleasureable.

3) when I was reaching into my wallet, counting my money, going to the liquor

store, planning my lies in case I was late for or missed work etc, etc...it

was ME choosing this behavior because of the pleasure I hoped to gain. Think

about it. Genetic and chemical diseases don't count money to buy

booze...people do.

There's an old joke of a guy running to his doctor saying " doc, it hurts when

I do that " , and the doctor replied " well don't do that " .

3)

[Guest guest]

Been there done that.

I said the same things. What I learned though is

1) there was nothing wrong with me, chemically or genetically, and I suspect

there's nothing wrong with you either. This false belief that there's

something wrong with me (which comes from AA) is what allowed me to continue.

2) there's a big difference between wanting to stop drinking and wanting to

stop the problems associated with excessive drinking. Don't mix them up. I

wanted to drink but I didn't want to wreck the car, while swearing to God

that I wanted to stop drinking...but I didn't...it's very pleasureable.

3) when I was reaching into my wallet, counting my money, going to the liquor

store, planning my lies in case I was late for or missed work etc, etc...it

was ME choosing this behavior because of the pleasure I hoped to gain. Think

about it. Genetic and chemical diseases don't count money to buy

booze...people do.

There's an old joke of a guy running to his doctor saying " doc, it hurts when

I do that " , and the doctor replied " well don't do that " .

3)

[Guest guest]

> Think about really really really quitting for

good . . . . . . . . . .

> Isn't there also something enthralling about that magnificent VOID

you have

> just created in your mind about your

future? . . . . . . . . . " Never drink

> as long as I live? . . . . No matter what happens? WOW! " . . .

(#1)

>

> But isn't it also scary? . . . . . . EEEEEEK! " . . . . . (#2)

Number two is

> the way animals and 12 steppers live. While malignant 12 steppers

are slick,

> sly, and sleezy; animals are just plain stupid.

I've never met a " stupid " animal. Where is this coming from? The

animals I have any knowledge of are extremely capable and give and

get from their environments exactly what they need to. Some humans

tend to think we are superior as a species--we're not. Speciesism

ranks right up there with racism and sexism for me and is

a major reason I've rejected religion (most of which tend to

perpetuate all three " isms " ).

We all have a lot of

> motivations in common with animals, pleasure seeking being the

greatest.

> (Look at the midriff of the average American.)

Those pleasure-seeking animals! Hmmmm. The obesity and drunkeness

among the animal population is a VERY serious problem these

days!!! ;^)

Actually, there have been some interesting studies about how animals

play. They do play. They all play. Birds, dogs, otters, cats,

mice, humans. That is pleasure-seeking, but not with the negative

connotation you are putting on it. In fact, pleasure-seeking is a

great motivation for quitting, since drinking to excess is never that

pleasurable! Waking up with a clear head will beat it any day in

terms of feeling good, which is a part of pleasure, as is the control

of appetites. Animals are masters at that.

" Man is the only animal that blushes--or needs to. "

-- Mark Twain

> Number one, on the other hand, is a quick, singular event which no

one else

> can ever truly know that you have experienced, but you cannot avoid

knowing

> you've experienced. You are absolutely capable of perfect success

by going

> through with it if and when you decide to cure yourself of the

problem.

I just can't agree with this. Deciding to remain abstinent is not a

quick, easy or singular event. It takes preparation, self-knowledge,

and support as well as determination. Especially in the beginning,

there are many things that can interfere with this and a maintenance

phase where a person consciously reaffirms the decision is

crucial. It isn't a one-time deal and it isn't an act of

powerlessness.

[Guest guest]

> Think about really really really quitting for

good . . . . . . . . . .

> Isn't there also something enthralling about that magnificent VOID

you have

> just created in your mind about your

future? . . . . . . . . . " Never drink

> as long as I live? . . . . No matter what happens? WOW! " . . .

(#1)

>

> But isn't it also scary? . . . . . . EEEEEEK! " . . . . . (#2)

Number two is

> the way animals and 12 steppers live. While malignant 12 steppers

are slick,

> sly, and sleezy; animals are just plain stupid.

I've never met a " stupid " animal. Where is this coming from? The

animals I have any knowledge of are extremely capable and give and

get from their environments exactly what they need to. Some humans

tend to think we are superior as a species--we're not. Speciesism

ranks right up there with racism and sexism for me and is

a major reason I've rejected religion (most of which tend to

perpetuate all three " isms " ).

We all have a lot of

> motivations in common with animals, pleasure seeking being the

greatest.

> (Look at the midriff of the average American.)

Those pleasure-seeking animals! Hmmmm. The obesity and drunkeness

among the animal population is a VERY serious problem these

days!!! ;^)

Actually, there have been some interesting studies about how animals

play. They do play. They all play. Birds, dogs, otters, cats,

mice, humans. That is pleasure-seeking, but not with the negative

connotation you are putting on it. In fact, pleasure-seeking is a

great motivation for quitting, since drinking to excess is never that

pleasurable! Waking up with a clear head will beat it any day in

terms of feeling good, which is a part of pleasure, as is the control

of appetites. Animals are masters at that.

" Man is the only animal that blushes--or needs to. "

-- Mark Twain

> Number one, on the other hand, is a quick, singular event which no

one else

> can ever truly know that you have experienced, but you cannot avoid

knowing

> you've experienced. You are absolutely capable of perfect success

by going

> through with it if and when you decide to cure yourself of the

problem.

I just can't agree with this. Deciding to remain abstinent is not a

quick, easy or singular event. It takes preparation, self-knowledge,

and support as well as determination. Especially in the beginning,

there are many things that can interfere with this and a maintenance

phase where a person consciously reaffirms the decision is

crucial. It isn't a one-time deal and it isn't an act of

powerlessness.

[Guest guest]

> Think about really really really quitting for

good . . . . . . . . . .

> Isn't there also something enthralling about that magnificent VOID

you have

> just created in your mind about your

future? . . . . . . . . . " Never drink

> as long as I live? . . . . No matter what happens? WOW! " . . .

(#1)

>

> But isn't it also scary? . . . . . . EEEEEEK! " . . . . . (#2)

Number two is

> the way animals and 12 steppers live. While malignant 12 steppers

are slick,

> sly, and sleezy; animals are just plain stupid.

I've never met a " stupid " animal. Where is this coming from? The

animals I have any knowledge of are extremely capable and give and

get from their environments exactly what they need to. Some humans

tend to think we are superior as a species--we're not. Speciesism

ranks right up there with racism and sexism for me and is

a major reason I've rejected religion (most of which tend to

perpetuate all three " isms " ).

We all have a lot of

> motivations in common with animals, pleasure seeking being the

greatest.

> (Look at the midriff of the average American.)

Those pleasure-seeking animals! Hmmmm. The obesity and drunkeness

among the animal population is a VERY serious problem these

days!!! ;^)

Actually, there have been some interesting studies about how animals

play. They do play. They all play. Birds, dogs, otters, cats,

mice, humans. That is pleasure-seeking, but not with the negative

connotation you are putting on it. In fact, pleasure-seeking is a

great motivation for quitting, since drinking to excess is never that

pleasurable! Waking up with a clear head will beat it any day in

terms of feeling good, which is a part of pleasure, as is the control

of appetites. Animals are masters at that.

" Man is the only animal that blushes--or needs to. "

-- Mark Twain

> Number one, on the other hand, is a quick, singular event which no

one else

> can ever truly know that you have experienced, but you cannot avoid

knowing

> you've experienced. You are absolutely capable of perfect success

by going

> through with it if and when you decide to cure yourself of the

problem.

I just can't agree with this. Deciding to remain abstinent is not a

quick, easy or singular event. It takes preparation, self-knowledge,

and support as well as determination. Especially in the beginning,

there are many things that can interfere with this and a maintenance

phase where a person consciously reaffirms the decision is

crucial. It isn't a one-time deal and it isn't an act of

powerlessness.

[Guest guest]

Re: RR/AA

>

>

> > Think about really really really quitting for

> good . . . . . . . . . .

> > Isn't there also something enthralling about that magnificent VOID

> you have

> > just created in your mind about your

> future? . . . . . . . . . " Never drink

> > as long as I live? . . . . No matter what happens? WOW! " . . .

> (#1)

> >

> > But isn't it also scary? . . . . . . EEEEEEK! " . . . . . (#2)

> Number two is

> > the way animals and 12 steppers live. While malignant 12 steppers

> are slick,

> > sly, and sleezy; animals are just plain stupid.

>

> I've never met a " stupid " animal. Where is this coming from? The

> animals I have any knowledge of are extremely capable and give and

> get from their environments exactly what they need to. Some humans

> tend to think we are superior as a species--we're not. Speciesism

> ranks right up there with racism and sexism for me and is

> a major reason I've rejected religion (most of which tend to

> perpetuate all three " isms " ).

>

I agree with everything except that I've never met a non-stupid animal.

We're obviously using different definitions of " stupid " .

> We all have a lot of

> > motivations in common with animals, pleasure seeking being the

> greatest.

> > (Look at the midriff of the average American.)

>

> Those pleasure-seeking animals! Hmmmm. The obesity and drunkeness

> among the animal population is a VERY serious problem these

> days!!! ;^)

>

You ought to see my cat.

> Actually, there have been some interesting studies about how animals

> play. They do play. They all play. Birds, dogs, otters, cats,

> mice, humans. That is pleasure-seeking, but not with the negative

> connotation you are putting on it. In fact, pleasure-seeking is a

> great motivation for quitting, since drinking to excess is never that

> pleasurable! Waking up with a clear head will beat it any day in

> terms of feeling good, which is a part of pleasure, as is the control

> of appetites. Animals are masters at that.

>

> " Man is the only animal that blushes--or needs to. "

> -- Mark Twain

>

> > Number one, on the other hand, is a quick, singular event which no

> one else

> > can ever truly know that you have experienced, but you cannot avoid

> knowing

> > you've experienced. You are absolutely capable of perfect success

> by going

> > through with it if and when you decide to cure yourself of the

> problem.

>

> I just can't agree with this. Deciding to remain abstinent is not a

> quick, easy or singular event. It takes preparation, self-knowledge,

> and support as well as determination. Especially in the beginning,

> there are many things that can interfere with this and a maintenance

> phase where a person consciously reaffirms the decision is

> crucial. It isn't a one-time deal and it isn't an act of

> powerlessness.

>

Related circumstances leading up to the deciding may occur for quite a

while, but the deciding itself, that moment of decision, the event of

recovery, is actually much easier than the animal side of our nature would

have us believe. It does take self-knowledge and determination, but most

preparation and especially support are bugaboos that taint the obvious

simplicity of deciding to never do something very specific and unrelated to

survival. If one concludes there is only one real reason to drink/drug,

then there is only one " thing that can interfere " . I would use the term

" recalled " rather than " reaffirmed " . A person will obviously consciously

recall the decision when the opportunity or thought of drinking comes along,

although reaffirm works too.

I don't think it can be proven that a decision to never do something can be

anything BUT a singular event. I would even add quick and easy, compared to

the alternatives.

Dave Trippel

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Re: RR/AA

>

>

> > Think about really really really quitting for

> good . . . . . . . . . .

> > Isn't there also something enthralling about that magnificent VOID

> you have

> > just created in your mind about your

> future? . . . . . . . . . " Never drink

> > as long as I live? . . . . No matter what happens? WOW! " . . .

> (#1)

> >

> > But isn't it also scary? . . . . . . EEEEEEK! " . . . . . (#2)

> Number two is

> > the way animals and 12 steppers live. While malignant 12 steppers

> are slick,

> > sly, and sleezy; animals are just plain stupid.

>

> I've never met a " stupid " animal. Where is this coming from? The

> animals I have any knowledge of are extremely capable and give and

> get from their environments exactly what they need to. Some humans

> tend to think we are superior as a species--we're not. Speciesism

> ranks right up there with racism and sexism for me and is

> a major reason I've rejected religion (most of which tend to

> perpetuate all three " isms " ).

>

I agree with everything except that I've never met a non-stupid animal.

We're obviously using different definitions of " stupid " .

> We all have a lot of

> > motivations in common with animals, pleasure seeking being the

> greatest.

> > (Look at the midriff of the average American.)

>

> Those pleasure-seeking animals! Hmmmm. The obesity and drunkeness

> among the animal population is a VERY serious problem these

> days!!! ;^)

>

You ought to see my cat.

> Actually, there have been some interesting studies about how animals

> play. They do play. They all play. Birds, dogs, otters, cats,

> mice, humans. That is pleasure-seeking, but not with the negative

> connotation you are putting on it. In fact, pleasure-seeking is a

> great motivation for quitting, since drinking to excess is never that

> pleasurable! Waking up with a clear head will beat it any day in

> terms of feeling good, which is a part of pleasure, as is the control

> of appetites. Animals are masters at that.

>

> " Man is the only animal that blushes--or needs to. "

> -- Mark Twain

>

> > Number one, on the other hand, is a quick, singular event which no

> one else

> > can ever truly know that you have experienced, but you cannot avoid

> knowing

> > you've experienced. You are absolutely capable of perfect success

> by going

> > through with it if and when you decide to cure yourself of the

> problem.

>

> I just can't agree with this. Deciding to remain abstinent is not a

> quick, easy or singular event. It takes preparation, self-knowledge,

> and support as well as determination. Especially in the beginning,

> there are many things that can interfere with this and a maintenance

> phase where a person consciously reaffirms the decision is

> crucial. It isn't a one-time deal and it isn't an act of

> powerlessness.

>

Related circumstances leading up to the deciding may occur for quite a

while, but the deciding itself, that moment of decision, the event of

recovery, is actually much easier than the animal side of our nature would

have us believe. It does take self-knowledge and determination, but most

preparation and especially support are bugaboos that taint the obvious

simplicity of deciding to never do something very specific and unrelated to

survival. If one concludes there is only one real reason to drink/drug,

then there is only one " thing that can interfere " . I would use the term

" recalled " rather than " reaffirmed " . A person will obviously consciously

recall the decision when the opportunity or thought of drinking comes along,

although reaffirm works too.

I don't think it can be proven that a decision to never do something can be

anything BUT a singular event. I would even add quick and easy, compared to

the alternatives.

Dave Trippel

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

>

> In fact, pleasure-seeking is a great motivation for

> quitting, since drinking to excess is never that

> pleasurable! Waking up with a clear head will beat it

> any day in terms of feeling good, which is a part of

> pleasure, as is the control of appetites. Animals

> are masters at that.

i would tend to agree with this.

this weekend i had an experience that still startles me... startles

me even though it's happened before... because i'd had so many people

assure me that there was no doubt that i had the permanent fatal

disease known as alcoholism and that the first step undoubtedly

applied to me. i went to dinner with my husband. i was very upset

about a lot of things that rang the chimes of long-past conflicts. i

ordered one strawberry margarita, drank it rather quickly, ordered

another, and very seriously considered getting totally blasted.

then, with that margarita humming pleasurably through my veins and

another in front of me... decided not to.

That was then. This is now. A great deal of water has flown under

the bridge between then and now... a lot of work, therapy, trial and

error, dealing with things, finding other ways to get my needs met.

i found... that i just simply did not have the self-hatred, the need

for pain and punishment, the rage and need to vent it, that getting

drunk would entail. i no longer needed to vandalize my self-portrait

with spray-paint mustaches. i was no longer under the crucial

illusion that losing control and acting out would have made me in any

way more " interesting " or worthy of attention or love -- quite the

contrary -- despite the way our culture fawns on the Drew Barrymores

and the Downeys.

i decided to stay at the " pleasure " side of the fence and very slowly

sip that second margarita the rest of the evening. despite the

collective voice of AA and the 1st step telling me it was impossible

for me to do so.

azure

[Guest guest]

>

> In fact, pleasure-seeking is a great motivation for

> quitting, since drinking to excess is never that

> pleasurable! Waking up with a clear head will beat it

> any day in terms of feeling good, which is a part of

> pleasure, as is the control of appetites. Animals

> are masters at that.

i would tend to agree with this.

this weekend i had an experience that still startles me... startles

me even though it's happened before... because i'd had so many people

assure me that there was no doubt that i had the permanent fatal

disease known as alcoholism and that the first step undoubtedly

applied to me. i went to dinner with my husband. i was very upset

about a lot of things that rang the chimes of long-past conflicts. i

ordered one strawberry margarita, drank it rather quickly, ordered

another, and very seriously considered getting totally blasted.

then, with that margarita humming pleasurably through my veins and

another in front of me... decided not to.

That was then. This is now. A great deal of water has flown under

the bridge between then and now... a lot of work, therapy, trial and

error, dealing with things, finding other ways to get my needs met.

i found... that i just simply did not have the self-hatred, the need

for pain and punishment, the rage and need to vent it, that getting

drunk would entail. i no longer needed to vandalize my self-portrait

with spray-paint mustaches. i was no longer under the crucial

illusion that losing control and acting out would have made me in any

way more " interesting " or worthy of attention or love -- quite the

contrary -- despite the way our culture fawns on the Drew Barrymores

and the Downeys.

i decided to stay at the " pleasure " side of the fence and very slowly

sip that second margarita the rest of the evening. despite the

collective voice of AA and the 1st step telling me it was impossible

for me to do so.

azure

[Guest guest]

At 04:50 PM 2/18/01 +0000, you wrote:

> i no longer needed to vandalize my self-portrait

>with spray-paint mustaches.

I love that line.

> i was no longer under the crucial

>illusion that losing control and acting out would have made me in any

>way more " interesting " or worthy of attention or love -- quite the

>contrary -- despite the way our culture fawns on the Drew Barrymores

>and the Downeys.

I think this is very important. This point has been made before,

but it's so crucial that I want to emphasize it. This 12-step

disease crap paints a bizarre portrait of " heroic " people who

are valiantly battling addiction and getting all kinds of

attention in the process -- it's hardly an unappealing role.

[Guest guest]

At 04:50 PM 2/18/01 +0000, you wrote:

> i no longer needed to vandalize my self-portrait

>with spray-paint mustaches.

I love that line.

> i was no longer under the crucial

>illusion that losing control and acting out would have made me in any

>way more " interesting " or worthy of attention or love -- quite the

>contrary -- despite the way our culture fawns on the Drew Barrymores

>and the Downeys.

I think this is very important. This point has been made before,

but it's so crucial that I want to emphasize it. This 12-step

disease crap paints a bizarre portrait of " heroic " people who

are valiantly battling addiction and getting all kinds of

attention in the process -- it's hardly an unappealing role.

[Guest guest]

>i no longer needed to vandalize my self-portrait

Good account Azure. I like your writing style too. Thanks!

I have not noticed you posting to 12-step free before. Welcome.

You've been a lot of fun to read on alt.recovery.from-12-steps.

[Guest guest]

>i no longer needed to vandalize my self-portrait

Good account Azure. I like your writing style too. Thanks!

I have not noticed you posting to 12-step free before. Welcome.

You've been a lot of fun to read on alt.recovery.from-12-steps.

[Guest guest]

>i no longer needed to vandalize my self-portrait

Good account Azure. I like your writing style too. Thanks!

I have not noticed you posting to 12-step free before. Welcome.

You've been a lot of fun to read on alt.recovery.from-12-steps.

[Guest guest]

>

>

> I agree with everything except that I've never met a non-stupid

animal.

> We're obviously using different definitions of " stupid " .

Definitely! In my dictionary, " stupid " is: " a: slow of mind: obtuse

b: given to unintelligent decisions or acts : acting in an

unintelligent or careless manner... " This is all stuff that people

get up to.

I do agree that people have a base side to them, and that there is a

part of us that urges us to act against our best interests. I just

think that the " beast " metaphor is an unfortunate one. Beasts don't

act that way! Excepting, perhaps, domestic or caged animals. [i too

have a cat that is WAY overweight. She doesn't drink though!]

I have a problem with it on another level too. It seems like by

assigning responsibility to the " beast " for our lower impulses and

making it into an " it/other, " then this isn't part of us anymore.

Therefore, we aren't responsible for the acts of this " other. " (?) It

isn't us right?

I haven't read RR lit for awhile...does it address this?

> Related circumstances leading up to the deciding may occur for

quite a

> while, but the deciding itself, that moment of decision, the event

of

> recovery, is actually much easier than the animal side of our

nature would

> have us believe. It does take self-knowledge and determination, but

most

> preparation and especially support

I am curious--why bother to be on a list like this then? You are

over it, you've made your decision, you're done.

AA has definitely tainted the word " support " for me, but I still want

to have some sort of feeling that I am not the ONLY person I know

that isn't an AA zombie. So, just reading a list like this is

generally supportive.

And regarding preparation, I think we are also differing on our

definitions!!! If I had " prepared " the first time around and done my

homework, I probably wouldn't have been sucked into AA in the first

place. I would have found out about other programs and picked one

that was more compatible with my belief system.

are bugaboos that taint the obvious

> simplicity of deciding to never do something very specific and

unrelated to

> survival. If one concludes there is only one real reason to

drink/drug,

> then there is only one " thing that can interfere " . I would use

the term

> " recalled " rather than " reaffirmed " . A person will obviously

consciously

> recall the decision when the opportunity or thought of drinking

comes along,

> although reaffirm works too.

I certainly recall more decisions than I ever reaffirmed!!!

>

> I don't think it can be proven that a decision to never do

something can be

> anything BUT a singular event. I would even add quick and easy,

compared to

> the alternatives.

Well, we will have to agree to disagree on this. In my personal

experience, the only thing more transforming than getting sober was

having my kids.

Cheers,

[Guest guest]

Re: RR/AA

>

> >

> >

> > I agree with everything except that I've never met a non-stupid

> animal.

> > We're obviously using different definitions of " stupid " .

>

> Definitely! In my dictionary, " stupid " is: " a: slow of mind: obtuse

> b: given to unintelligent decisions or acts : acting in an

> unintelligent or careless manner... " This is all stuff that people

> get up to.

>

> I do agree that people have a base side to them, and that there is a

> part of us that urges us to act against our best interests. I just

> think that the " beast " metaphor is an unfortunate one. Beasts don't

> act that way! Excepting, perhaps, domestic or caged animals. [i too

> have a cat that is WAY overweight. She doesn't drink though!]

>

> I have a problem with it on another level too. It seems like by

> assigning responsibility to the " beast " for our lower impulses and

> making it into an " it/other, " then this isn't part of us anymore.

> Therefore, we aren't responsible for the acts of this " other. " (?) It

> isn't us right?

>

> I haven't read RR lit for awhile...does it address this?

Yes.

>

>

> > Related circumstances leading up to the deciding may occur for

> quite a

> > while, but the deciding itself, that moment of decision, the event

> of

> > recovery, is actually much easier than the animal side of our

> nature would

> > have us believe. It does take self-knowledge and determination, but

> most

> > preparation and especially support

>

> I am curious--why bother to be on a list like this then?

I'm active against AA. I was in it all through the 80's having originally

been " forced " by " the system " . I used RR to get out in 1991.

>You are

> over it, you've made your decision, you're done.

>

> AA has definitely tainted the word " support " for me, but I still want

> to have some sort of feeling that I am not the ONLY person I know

> that isn't an AA zombie. So, just reading a list like this is

> generally supportive.

>

> And regarding preparation, I think we are also differing on our

> definitions!!! If I had " prepared " the first time around and done my

> homework, I probably wouldn't have been sucked into AA in the first

> place. I would have found out about other programs and picked one

> that was more compatible with my belief system.

>

> are bugaboos that taint the obvious

> > simplicity of deciding to never do something very specific and

> unrelated to

> > survival. If one concludes there is only one real reason to

> drink/drug,

> > then there is only one " thing that can interfere " . I would use

> the term

> > " recalled " rather than " reaffirmed " . A person will obviously

> consciously

> > recall the decision when the opportunity or thought of drinking

> comes along,

> > although reaffirm works too.

>

> I certainly recall more decisions than I ever reaffirmed!!!

> >

> > I don't think it can be proven that a decision to never do

> something can be

> > anything BUT a singular event. I would even add quick and easy,

> compared to

> > the alternatives.

>

> Well, we will have to agree to disagree on this. In my personal

> experience, the only thing more transforming than getting sober was

> having my kids.

>

> Cheers,

>

>

I think you're associating singular event with unmeaningful event. To the

contrary, the event is the kickoff for whatever transformation you choose.

No

programs leading you by the nose. Truly awesome.

Dave Trippel