Guest guest Posted January 27, 2001 Report Share Posted January 27, 2001 the god control has gone from being just over her " powerlessness' over alcohol, but apparently her inability to set her alarm. this is also typical of cults. > At the end, I would say things like, " I don't believe my higher power > caused ________, [thing that had happened my life]. Because if He > did, He is a real jerk and you can keep Him. " The constant > pressure to put a happy face on everything and to find your " part " in > every interaction gone wrong, was just too strong emotions, and anything but gratitude to the cult and numbness or " serenity " are discouraged in cults, it breaks the spell the group is under. > It was over two years ago that I decided to stop going to AA. Since > then I did start drinking and also using painkillers. The levels of > use have not yet reached to past levels, but I am uncomfortable with > what I'm doing and am in the process of finding other groups and/or > people that might be able to help, without ramming God down my throat > and all the other stuff that goes on in those AA meetings. > > I've found that once AA isn't really an option anymore, it can be > really hard to find anything that isn't based on it, although I am > going to my first Smart Recovery meeting next Tuesday > > I'd like to hear your thoughts and what worked for you. Thanks. hope smart is good for you, its a sound program. my advise it to always do whats best for yourself, practice self respect and build up your self esteem in everything you can. love yourself and your loved ones. it may sound cliche, but its what i believe keeps me sober today. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 27, 2001 Report Share Posted January 27, 2001 the god control has gone from being just over her " powerlessness' over alcohol, but apparently her inability to set her alarm. this is also typical of cults. > At the end, I would say things like, " I don't believe my higher power > caused ________, [thing that had happened my life]. Because if He > did, He is a real jerk and you can keep Him. " The constant > pressure to put a happy face on everything and to find your " part " in > every interaction gone wrong, was just too strong emotions, and anything but gratitude to the cult and numbness or " serenity " are discouraged in cults, it breaks the spell the group is under. > It was over two years ago that I decided to stop going to AA. Since > then I did start drinking and also using painkillers. The levels of > use have not yet reached to past levels, but I am uncomfortable with > what I'm doing and am in the process of finding other groups and/or > people that might be able to help, without ramming God down my throat > and all the other stuff that goes on in those AA meetings. > > I've found that once AA isn't really an option anymore, it can be > really hard to find anything that isn't based on it, although I am > going to my first Smart Recovery meeting next Tuesday > > I'd like to hear your thoughts and what worked for you. Thanks. hope smart is good for you, its a sound program. my advise it to always do whats best for yourself, practice self respect and build up your self esteem in everything you can. love yourself and your loved ones. it may sound cliche, but its what i believe keeps me sober today. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 27, 2001 Report Share Posted January 27, 2001 the god control has gone from being just over her " powerlessness' over alcohol, but apparently her inability to set her alarm. this is also typical of cults. > At the end, I would say things like, " I don't believe my higher power > caused ________, [thing that had happened my life]. Because if He > did, He is a real jerk and you can keep Him. " The constant > pressure to put a happy face on everything and to find your " part " in > every interaction gone wrong, was just too strong emotions, and anything but gratitude to the cult and numbness or " serenity " are discouraged in cults, it breaks the spell the group is under. > It was over two years ago that I decided to stop going to AA. Since > then I did start drinking and also using painkillers. The levels of > use have not yet reached to past levels, but I am uncomfortable with > what I'm doing and am in the process of finding other groups and/or > people that might be able to help, without ramming God down my throat > and all the other stuff that goes on in those AA meetings. > > I've found that once AA isn't really an option anymore, it can be > really hard to find anything that isn't based on it, although I am > going to my first Smart Recovery meeting next Tuesday > > I'd like to hear your thoughts and what worked for you. Thanks. hope smart is good for you, its a sound program. my advise it to always do whats best for yourself, practice self respect and build up your self esteem in everything you can. love yourself and your loved ones. it may sound cliche, but its what i believe keeps me sober today. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 28, 2001 Report Share Posted January 28, 2001 ahicks- Good to hear from you. I have a site, www.sobrietyfrontiers.com that talks about a lot of the issues you brought up. It's interesting how your friend's higher power "woke" her up. I attended a meditation course a few years ago which included a section on how to throw away your alarm clock. You take some time before going to bed, slow down your mind, and visualize the time you would like to wake up. Don't "say" it in your mind. See what the clock would look like at the time you want to wake up. Works like a charm. Never was the word "higher power" or God used or implied. I use an alarm clock but often wake up minutes before it goes off. It's a biological clock thing. Nate Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 28, 2001 Report Share Posted January 28, 2001 ahicks- Good to hear from you. I have a site, www.sobrietyfrontiers.com that talks about a lot of the issues you brought up. It's interesting how your friend's higher power "woke" her up. I attended a meditation course a few years ago which included a section on how to throw away your alarm clock. You take some time before going to bed, slow down your mind, and visualize the time you would like to wake up. Don't "say" it in your mind. See what the clock would look like at the time you want to wake up. Works like a charm. Never was the word "higher power" or God used or implied. I use an alarm clock but often wake up minutes before it goes off. It's a biological clock thing. Nate Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 28, 2001 Report Share Posted January 28, 2001 acutally o learned i coudl do that on my own, havent tried in a while but i had knack for saying i will wake up at so and so time, even when it was not my normal sleep time, i and would wake up. > It's interesting how your friend's higher power " woke " her up. I attended a meditation course a few years ago which included a section on how to throw away your alarm clock. You take some time before going to bed, slow down your mind, and visualize the time you would like to wake up. Don't " say " it in your mind. See what the clock would look like at the time you want to wake up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 28, 2001 Report Share Posted January 28, 2001 acutally o learned i coudl do that on my own, havent tried in a while but i had knack for saying i will wake up at so and so time, even when it was not my normal sleep time, i and would wake up. > It's interesting how your friend's higher power " woke " her up. I attended a meditation course a few years ago which included a section on how to throw away your alarm clock. You take some time before going to bed, slow down your mind, and visualize the time you would like to wake up. Don't " say " it in your mind. See what the clock would look like at the time you want to wake up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 28, 2001 Report Share Posted January 28, 2001 acutally o learned i coudl do that on my own, havent tried in a while but i had knack for saying i will wake up at so and so time, even when it was not my normal sleep time, i and would wake up. > It's interesting how your friend's higher power " woke " her up. I attended a meditation course a few years ago which included a section on how to throw away your alarm clock. You take some time before going to bed, slow down your mind, and visualize the time you would like to wake up. Don't " say " it in your mind. See what the clock would look like at the time you want to wake up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 29, 2001 Report Share Posted January 29, 2001 I hate alarm clocks and I don't have one. Re: My First Time ahicks- Good to hear from you. I have a site, www.sobrietyfrontiers.com that talks about a lot of the issues you brought up. It's interesting how your friend's higher power "woke" her up. I attended a meditation course a few years ago which included a section on how to throw away your alarm clock. You take some time before going to bed, slow down your mind, and visualize the time you would like to wake up. Don't "say" it in your mind. See what the clock would look like at the time you want to wake up. Works like a charm. Never was the word "higher power" or God used or implied. I use an alarm clock but often wake up minutes before it goes off. It's a biological clock thing. Nate Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 29, 2001 Report Share Posted January 29, 2001 Hi, me again... > acutally o learned i coudl do that on my own, havent tried in a > while but i had knack for saying i will wake up at so and so time, > even when it was not my normal sleep time, i and would wake > up. > > > > It's interesting how your friend's higher power " woke " her up. I > attended a meditation course a few years ago which included a > section on how to throw away your alarm clock. You take some > time before going to bed, slow down your mind, and visualize the > time you would like to wake up. Don't " say " it in your mind. See > what the clock would look like at the time you want to wake up. I was interested you guys picked up on this part...to me it was an example of the level of trivia and detail that I found people attributing to their HPs. Constantly. That is, if it was a positive thing in their lives. If it was a negative or they happened to make a bad decision, it was " self-will run riot. " I could never reconcile the way I felt about that with the group norm. It was me, after all, who decided to come to the meeting, me who decided not to drink, me who decided all the infinitesimal decisions that we are all confronted with daily. The idea of this HP hanging around over my shoulder making sure my outfit didn't clash just didn't sit well with me. ;^) Then some really bad things did happen: 4 miscarriages in 1 1/2 years. The reaction went along the lines of " God never gives us more than we can handle, " " You're probably lucky...who knows what would have happened if that hadn't of, there was probably something wrong. " Some even questioned if I'd gone back to drinking, perhaps calling down the HP's wrath and insinuating that the baby might have been alcohol syndrome. I hadn't had a drop in years at that point. I don't think those people were intentionally trying to make me sad and angry. I just think that real problems are beyond the scope of what they can come to grips with. Waking up on time, now THAT we can deal with. What puzzles me is why I ever expected more!!!!!!!! I can't seem to shake it: THANKS for letting me share! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 29, 2001 Report Share Posted January 29, 2001 Hi, me again... > acutally o learned i coudl do that on my own, havent tried in a > while but i had knack for saying i will wake up at so and so time, > even when it was not my normal sleep time, i and would wake > up. > > > > It's interesting how your friend's higher power " woke " her up. I > attended a meditation course a few years ago which included a > section on how to throw away your alarm clock. You take some > time before going to bed, slow down your mind, and visualize the > time you would like to wake up. Don't " say " it in your mind. See > what the clock would look like at the time you want to wake up. I was interested you guys picked up on this part...to me it was an example of the level of trivia and detail that I found people attributing to their HPs. Constantly. That is, if it was a positive thing in their lives. If it was a negative or they happened to make a bad decision, it was " self-will run riot. " I could never reconcile the way I felt about that with the group norm. It was me, after all, who decided to come to the meeting, me who decided not to drink, me who decided all the infinitesimal decisions that we are all confronted with daily. The idea of this HP hanging around over my shoulder making sure my outfit didn't clash just didn't sit well with me. ;^) Then some really bad things did happen: 4 miscarriages in 1 1/2 years. The reaction went along the lines of " God never gives us more than we can handle, " " You're probably lucky...who knows what would have happened if that hadn't of, there was probably something wrong. " Some even questioned if I'd gone back to drinking, perhaps calling down the HP's wrath and insinuating that the baby might have been alcohol syndrome. I hadn't had a drop in years at that point. I don't think those people were intentionally trying to make me sad and angry. I just think that real problems are beyond the scope of what they can come to grips with. Waking up on time, now THAT we can deal with. What puzzles me is why I ever expected more!!!!!!!! I can't seem to shake it: THANKS for letting me share! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 29, 2001 Report Share Posted January 29, 2001 Hi, me again... > acutally o learned i coudl do that on my own, havent tried in a > while but i had knack for saying i will wake up at so and so time, > even when it was not my normal sleep time, i and would wake > up. > > > > It's interesting how your friend's higher power " woke " her up. I > attended a meditation course a few years ago which included a > section on how to throw away your alarm clock. You take some > time before going to bed, slow down your mind, and visualize the > time you would like to wake up. Don't " say " it in your mind. See > what the clock would look like at the time you want to wake up. I was interested you guys picked up on this part...to me it was an example of the level of trivia and detail that I found people attributing to their HPs. Constantly. That is, if it was a positive thing in their lives. If it was a negative or they happened to make a bad decision, it was " self-will run riot. " I could never reconcile the way I felt about that with the group norm. It was me, after all, who decided to come to the meeting, me who decided not to drink, me who decided all the infinitesimal decisions that we are all confronted with daily. The idea of this HP hanging around over my shoulder making sure my outfit didn't clash just didn't sit well with me. ;^) Then some really bad things did happen: 4 miscarriages in 1 1/2 years. The reaction went along the lines of " God never gives us more than we can handle, " " You're probably lucky...who knows what would have happened if that hadn't of, there was probably something wrong. " Some even questioned if I'd gone back to drinking, perhaps calling down the HP's wrath and insinuating that the baby might have been alcohol syndrome. I hadn't had a drop in years at that point. I don't think those people were intentionally trying to make me sad and angry. I just think that real problems are beyond the scope of what they can come to grips with. Waking up on time, now THAT we can deal with. What puzzles me is why I ever expected more!!!!!!!! I can't seem to shake it: THANKS for letting me share! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 29, 2001 Report Share Posted January 29, 2001 <<warning, rant below. you've been given notice>> when i was in aa, my mom was dying from cancer, a real disease. it really opened my eyes seeing her suffer and then going to meetings and watching people who were apparently sober for years talk about thier " cunning , baffling disease " , a " disease " which you can apprently turn off by not lifting a glass to your lips. made me see what a masochistic, pathetic box they had put themsleves into. they had made themselves victims to their past behavior. they had been taught this in AA. you dont hear anyone outside of aa say, gee, " im grateful for this colon cancer! " they way steppers are grateful for alcoholism. the box starts wtih the abuse and use of language. and i used to think it all came from within the groups. but i more and more conviced thier are just folks in general out there who are attracted to this bunk (spirtualism etc..) to cope with lifes realites. i personaly dont understand it. especialy the types who want to see into the future somehow. why? why your looking into future, your wasting today. what are you going to learn about tommarow which will make up for the moment you just lost while on the pyshic hotline? why are they concerned about the future when all that really matters is loving yourself , family and friends? why do people need to search and search for more meaning than that? someone on this list credited to feeling a lack of control over life (powerlessness?) and more i think about it, it seems a likey reason. i dont know. anyone ? .. I just think that real problems are beyond the scope of > what they can come to grips with. Waking up on time, now THAT we can > deal with. What puzzles me is why I ever expected more!!!!!!!! > > I can't seem to shake it: THANKS for letting me share! > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 29, 2001 Report Share Posted January 29, 2001 <<warning, rant below. you've been given notice>> when i was in aa, my mom was dying from cancer, a real disease. it really opened my eyes seeing her suffer and then going to meetings and watching people who were apparently sober for years talk about thier " cunning , baffling disease " , a " disease " which you can apprently turn off by not lifting a glass to your lips. made me see what a masochistic, pathetic box they had put themsleves into. they had made themselves victims to their past behavior. they had been taught this in AA. you dont hear anyone outside of aa say, gee, " im grateful for this colon cancer! " they way steppers are grateful for alcoholism. the box starts wtih the abuse and use of language. and i used to think it all came from within the groups. but i more and more conviced thier are just folks in general out there who are attracted to this bunk (spirtualism etc..) to cope with lifes realites. i personaly dont understand it. especialy the types who want to see into the future somehow. why? why your looking into future, your wasting today. what are you going to learn about tommarow which will make up for the moment you just lost while on the pyshic hotline? why are they concerned about the future when all that really matters is loving yourself , family and friends? why do people need to search and search for more meaning than that? someone on this list credited to feeling a lack of control over life (powerlessness?) and more i think about it, it seems a likey reason. i dont know. anyone ? .. I just think that real problems are beyond the scope of > what they can come to grips with. Waking up on time, now THAT we can > deal with. What puzzles me is why I ever expected more!!!!!!!! > > I can't seem to shake it: THANKS for letting me share! > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 29, 2001 Report Share Posted January 29, 2001 <<warning, rant below. you've been given notice>> when i was in aa, my mom was dying from cancer, a real disease. it really opened my eyes seeing her suffer and then going to meetings and watching people who were apparently sober for years talk about thier " cunning , baffling disease " , a " disease " which you can apprently turn off by not lifting a glass to your lips. made me see what a masochistic, pathetic box they had put themsleves into. they had made themselves victims to their past behavior. they had been taught this in AA. you dont hear anyone outside of aa say, gee, " im grateful for this colon cancer! " they way steppers are grateful for alcoholism. the box starts wtih the abuse and use of language. and i used to think it all came from within the groups. but i more and more conviced thier are just folks in general out there who are attracted to this bunk (spirtualism etc..) to cope with lifes realites. i personaly dont understand it. especialy the types who want to see into the future somehow. why? why your looking into future, your wasting today. what are you going to learn about tommarow which will make up for the moment you just lost while on the pyshic hotline? why are they concerned about the future when all that really matters is loving yourself , family and friends? why do people need to search and search for more meaning than that? someone on this list credited to feeling a lack of control over life (powerlessness?) and more i think about it, it seems a likey reason. i dont know. anyone ? .. I just think that real problems are beyond the scope of > what they can come to grips with. Waking up on time, now THAT we can > deal with. What puzzles me is why I ever expected more!!!!!!!! > > I can't seem to shake it: THANKS for letting me share! > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 30, 2001 Report Share Posted January 30, 2001 In a message dated 1/29/01 11:03:26 PM Pacific Standard Time, dmarcoot@... writes: << what are you going to learn about tommarow which will make up for the moment you just lost while on the pyshic hotline? why are they concerned about the future when all that really matters is loving yourself , family and friends? why do people need to search and search for more meaning than that? someone on this list credited to feeling a lack of control over life (powerlessness?) and more i think about it, it seems a likey reason. i dont know. anyone ? >> Sorry for the one-liners, but some real jewels on the list today lol. thanks. Piper. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 30, 2001 Report Share Posted January 30, 2001 In a message dated 1/29/01 11:03:26 PM Pacific Standard Time, dmarcoot@... writes: << what are you going to learn about tommarow which will make up for the moment you just lost while on the pyshic hotline? why are they concerned about the future when all that really matters is loving yourself , family and friends? why do people need to search and search for more meaning than that? someone on this list credited to feeling a lack of control over life (powerlessness?) and more i think about it, it seems a likey reason. i dont know. anyone ? >> Sorry for the one-liners, but some real jewels on the list today lol. thanks. Piper. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 30, 2001 Report Share Posted January 30, 2001 > Then some really bad things did happen: 4 miscarriages in 1 1/2 > years. The reaction went along the lines of " God never gives us more > than we can handle, " " You're probably lucky...who knows what would > have happened if that hadn't of, there was probably something > wrong. " Some even questioned if I'd gone back to drinking, perhaps > calling down the HP's wrath and insinuating that the baby might have > been alcohol syndrome. , I am so very, very sorry, and I think perhaps I understand how you might possibly feel. I had my son (just shy of three months) die of SIDS after I had left the program and had folks from the program tell me that it was because I had left. Screw them. Losing a child is the most ASS thing that can happen ever, and I totally empathize with your pain. Nothing and no one can make it not hurt, but if you need to talk or anything, my address is iwsilver@.... Love, Silver Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 30, 2001 Report Share Posted January 30, 2001 > Then some really bad things did happen: 4 miscarriages in 1 1/2 > years. The reaction went along the lines of " God never gives us more > than we can handle, " " You're probably lucky...who knows what would > have happened if that hadn't of, there was probably something > wrong. " Some even questioned if I'd gone back to drinking, perhaps > calling down the HP's wrath and insinuating that the baby might have > been alcohol syndrome. , I am so very, very sorry, and I think perhaps I understand how you might possibly feel. I had my son (just shy of three months) die of SIDS after I had left the program and had folks from the program tell me that it was because I had left. Screw them. Losing a child is the most ASS thing that can happen ever, and I totally empathize with your pain. Nothing and no one can make it not hurt, but if you need to talk or anything, my address is iwsilver@.... Love, Silver Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 30, 2001 Report Share Posted January 30, 2001 > <<warning, rant below. you've been given notice>> > > when i was in aa, my mom was dying from cancer, a real > disease. it really opened my eyes seeing her suffer and then > going to meetings and watching people who were apparently > sober for years talk about thier " cunning , baffling disease " , a > " disease " which you can apprently turn off by not lifting a glass to > your lips. > ------- It still makes my skin crawl every time I hear your story, Dave. I remember you saying the steppers who all claimed to be your " friends " and your " support " never had one fig of real sympathy or support for what you were going through. They expected you to just keep thinking about meetings and steps and maybe even going to extra meetings. And probably they thought (even if they didn't say it) that grief over your mom was a " slippery slope " and " dangerous " like they claim anger is. What insensitive creepos. > made me see what a masochistic, pathetic box they had put > themsleves into. they had made themselves victims to their past > behavior. they had been taught this in AA. you dont hear anyone > outside of aa say, gee, " im grateful for this colon cancer! " they > way steppers are grateful for alcoholism. > -------- They're " grateful " because they believe they have been " chosen " by HP to hear the Steps and convert the world to steppism. Had they not been problem drinkers, they'd not have gotten such a wonderful chance. (Of course that's BS too, since no matter what bad habit anyone has, a Step group has been invented for it -- I still laugh over " Messies Anonymous " -- the " disease " of sloppiness that HP will save you from if you confess your sins and carry the message) > the box starts wtih the abuse and use of language. > and i used to think it all came from within the groups. > > but i more and more conviced thier are just folks in general out > there who are attracted to this bunk (spirtualism etc..) to cope > with lifes realites. i personaly dont understand it. especialy the > types who want to see into the future somehow. why? why your > looking into future, your wasting today. what are you going to > learn about tommarow which will make up for the moment you > just lost while on the pyshic hotline? why are they concerned > about the future when all that really matters is loving yourself , > family and friends? why do people need to search and search for > more meaning than that? > ---------- Well, I have little regard for astrology, psychics, and the like, but probably most people who read that stuff don't take it too seriously, it's just a mildly passing interest for the moment or whatever. But as far as beinmg concerned about the future -- actually it is normal and healthy to think about the future insofar as making plans for education, self-improvement, etc., and then executing them successfully. I think this is actually one of the destructive things about AA philosophy -- the insistence that you must be involved only with the present (One Day At A Time!). In fact one of the English words seized and distorted by steppers (especially counselors) is " projection " -- they don't use it all all in the way psychologists would (i.e. assuming another person has traits that you yourself do), but rather to mean " projecting into the future " , as in analyzing possible negative outcomes of a plan -- and this, I was told in " treatment " , is a Very Bad Thing, which " makes " people drink and drug again. Also, encouraging people to think only about today promotes the " acceptance " ideology of the infamous Page 449 of the BB. As I've posted previously, those of us who feel strongly about making improvements to the world via political action, charitable work, legal work, etc. will find the " acceptance " idea particularly offensive. Legal and political action requires both NON- " acceptance " and concern about the future, and ability to analyze probable outcomes. > someone on this list credited to feeling a lack of control over life > (powerlessness?) and more i think about it, it seems a likey > reason. i dont know. anyone ? > ---------- Oh, that was me. There is a big difference between getting into Tarot cards, I Ching, etc. (which are predicated on your future being predetermined by forces beyond your control) and getting into personal action to alter the future. The first supports " powerlessness " ideology, the second is diametrically opposed to that idea. ~Rita Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 30, 2001 Report Share Posted January 30, 2001 > <<warning, rant below. you've been given notice>> > > when i was in aa, my mom was dying from cancer, a real > disease. it really opened my eyes seeing her suffer and then > going to meetings and watching people who were apparently > sober for years talk about thier " cunning , baffling disease " , a > " disease " which you can apprently turn off by not lifting a glass to > your lips. > ------- It still makes my skin crawl every time I hear your story, Dave. I remember you saying the steppers who all claimed to be your " friends " and your " support " never had one fig of real sympathy or support for what you were going through. They expected you to just keep thinking about meetings and steps and maybe even going to extra meetings. And probably they thought (even if they didn't say it) that grief over your mom was a " slippery slope " and " dangerous " like they claim anger is. What insensitive creepos. > made me see what a masochistic, pathetic box they had put > themsleves into. they had made themselves victims to their past > behavior. they had been taught this in AA. you dont hear anyone > outside of aa say, gee, " im grateful for this colon cancer! " they > way steppers are grateful for alcoholism. > -------- They're " grateful " because they believe they have been " chosen " by HP to hear the Steps and convert the world to steppism. Had they not been problem drinkers, they'd not have gotten such a wonderful chance. (Of course that's BS too, since no matter what bad habit anyone has, a Step group has been invented for it -- I still laugh over " Messies Anonymous " -- the " disease " of sloppiness that HP will save you from if you confess your sins and carry the message) > the box starts wtih the abuse and use of language. > and i used to think it all came from within the groups. > > but i more and more conviced thier are just folks in general out > there who are attracted to this bunk (spirtualism etc..) to cope > with lifes realites. i personaly dont understand it. especialy the > types who want to see into the future somehow. why? why your > looking into future, your wasting today. what are you going to > learn about tommarow which will make up for the moment you > just lost while on the pyshic hotline? why are they concerned > about the future when all that really matters is loving yourself , > family and friends? why do people need to search and search for > more meaning than that? > ---------- Well, I have little regard for astrology, psychics, and the like, but probably most people who read that stuff don't take it too seriously, it's just a mildly passing interest for the moment or whatever. But as far as beinmg concerned about the future -- actually it is normal and healthy to think about the future insofar as making plans for education, self-improvement, etc., and then executing them successfully. I think this is actually one of the destructive things about AA philosophy -- the insistence that you must be involved only with the present (One Day At A Time!). In fact one of the English words seized and distorted by steppers (especially counselors) is " projection " -- they don't use it all all in the way psychologists would (i.e. assuming another person has traits that you yourself do), but rather to mean " projecting into the future " , as in analyzing possible negative outcomes of a plan -- and this, I was told in " treatment " , is a Very Bad Thing, which " makes " people drink and drug again. Also, encouraging people to think only about today promotes the " acceptance " ideology of the infamous Page 449 of the BB. As I've posted previously, those of us who feel strongly about making improvements to the world via political action, charitable work, legal work, etc. will find the " acceptance " idea particularly offensive. Legal and political action requires both NON- " acceptance " and concern about the future, and ability to analyze probable outcomes. > someone on this list credited to feeling a lack of control over life > (powerlessness?) and more i think about it, it seems a likey > reason. i dont know. anyone ? > ---------- Oh, that was me. There is a big difference between getting into Tarot cards, I Ching, etc. (which are predicated on your future being predetermined by forces beyond your control) and getting into personal action to alter the future. The first supports " powerlessness " ideology, the second is diametrically opposed to that idea. ~Rita Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 31, 2001 Report Share Posted January 31, 2001 Re: My First Time > > > <<warning, rant below. you've been given notice>> > > when i was in aa, my mom was dying from cancer, a real > > disease. it really opened my eyes seeing her suffer and then > > going to meetings and watching people who were apparently > > sober for years talk about thier " cunning , baffling disease " , a > > " disease " which you can apprently turn off by not lifting a glass to > > your lips. >RITA> It still makes my skin crawl every time I hear your story, Dave. I remember you saying the steppers who all claimed to be your " friends " and your " support " never had one fig of real sympathy or support for what you were going through. They expected you to just keep thinking about meetings and steps and maybe even going to extra meetings. And probably they thought (even if they didn't say it) that grief over your mom was a " slippery slope " and " dangerous " like they claim anger is. What insensitive creepos. Yeah, Dave, thanks for writing that! I'd like to go into a meeting and say, " I'll show you a DISEASE you BASTARDS!!! " > > made me see what a masochistic, pathetic box they had put > > themsleves into. they had made themselves victims to their past > > behavior. they had been taught this in AA. you dont hear anyone > > outside of aa say, gee, " im grateful for this colon cancer! " they > > way steppers are grateful for alcoholism. This is great, too! I remember being so grateful and glad I wasn't like the rest of the people who hadn't learned to live life on life's terms or acceptence, or who weren't able to be serene like I was while I was evicted and arrested, etc. >RITA> They're " grateful " because they believe they have been " chosen " by HP to hear the Steps and convert the world to steppism. Had they not been problem drinkers, they'd not have gotten such a wonderful chance. (Of course that's BS too, since no matter what bad habit anyone has, a Step group has been invented for it -- I still laugh over " Messies Anonymous " -- the " disease " of sloppiness that HP will save you from if you confess your sins and carry the message) But Powerlessness over CLUTTER is a DISEASE!!! Sloppies!!! ROFLMAO - ow!! my stomach hurts. > > but i more and more conviced thier are just folks in general out > > there who are attracted to this bunk (spirtualism etc..) to cope > > with lifes realites. i personaly dont understand it. especialy the > > types who want to see into the future somehow. why? why your > > looking into future, your wasting today. what are you going to > > learn about tommarow which will make up for the moment you > > just lost while on the pyshic hotline? why are they concerned > > about the future when all that really matters is loving yourself , > > family and friends? why do people need to search and search for > > more meaning than that? I guess that was a serious question. I think people who are fearful or insecure or feeling very powerless may seek to know what will happen in the future. I think they feel so powerless over the now, that they want to get a head start on the next now - improve their chances of achieving something or succeeding in the next now, or at least be ready when some now comes along. Of course, it's funny how people are stupid. But that's plowed ground. >RITA> Well, I have little regard for astrology, psychics, and the like, but probably most people who read that stuff don't take it too seriously, it's just a mildly passing interest for the moment or whatever. I think its about the same as those who read the Bible. Its comforting to them, and they think it is doing them some good somehow. A little like people reading and typing here, we think it is doing us some good , so we do it. Hopefully it is. >RITA> But as far as beinmg concerned about the future -- actually it is normal and healthy to think about the future insofar as making plans for education, self-improvement, etc., and then executing them successfully. I think this is actually one of the destructive things about AA philosophy -- the insistence that you must be involved only with the present (One Day At A Time!). In fact one of the English words seized and distorted by steppers (especially counselors) is " projection " -- they don't use it all all in the way psychologists would (i.e. assuming another person has traits that you yourself do), but rather to mean " projecting into the future " , as in analyzing possible negative outcomes of a plan -- and this, I was told in " treatment " , is a Very Bad Thing, which " makes " people drink and drug again. One of my stepper counselor people, when I told him some of mid range plans said some little quote, " You fail to plan, you plan to fail. " And that reminded of another quote I'd heard recently, " Living is something we do between plans. " I know which one I like better. Projection, when using the stepper definition, does seem to cause a lot of anxiety. Too bad that's not projection, it's negative fantasizing, which is a part of being depressed and a popular thing to do, even a habitual thing to do, when one is depressed. Of course if one doesn't overcome the depression that has caused their alcohol or drug problems, .they are very likely to fall back into those problems. And if they do things (like negative fantasizing) that perpetuate their depression, I think it is true that it can cause a so-called relapse (when the truth is no recovery (or not enough) has occured, but they like to say the opposite, that recovery had occured... because stupid idiots are trying to recover from a fake disease (see above) instead of their depression). Sorry for the runon sentence. I think the best thing to say there is you can not recover from depression if you choose to be depressed, and having depresed thoughts, wallowing in them, is choosing to be deprressed instead of something else. Simple, but not so simple. >RITA> Also, encouraging people to think only about today promotes the " acceptance " ideology of the infamous Page 449 of the BB. As I've posted previously, those of us who feel strongly about making improvements to the world via political action, charitable work, legal work, etc. will find the " acceptance " idea particularly offensive. Legal and political action requires both NON- " acceptance " and concern about the future, and ability to analyze probable outcomes. I can not remember what 449 contains, but acceptance is bullshit. Big Book Acceptance means accepting other people's right to control you, and you can accpet that if you want to, but you don't have to to live, and certainly can't if you want to be happy. 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Guest guest Posted January 31, 2001 Report Share Posted January 31, 2001 Re: My First Time > > > <<warning, rant below. you've been given notice>> > > when i was in aa, my mom was dying from cancer, a real > > disease. it really opened my eyes seeing her suffer and then > > going to meetings and watching people who were apparently > > sober for years talk about thier " cunning , baffling disease " , a > > " disease " which you can apprently turn off by not lifting a glass to > > your lips. >RITA> It still makes my skin crawl every time I hear your story, Dave. I remember you saying the steppers who all claimed to be your " friends " and your " support " never had one fig of real sympathy or support for what you were going through. They expected you to just keep thinking about meetings and steps and maybe even going to extra meetings. And probably they thought (even if they didn't say it) that grief over your mom was a " slippery slope " and " dangerous " like they claim anger is. What insensitive creepos. Yeah, Dave, thanks for writing that! I'd like to go into a meeting and say, " I'll show you a DISEASE you BASTARDS!!! " > > made me see what a masochistic, pathetic box they had put > > themsleves into. they had made themselves victims to their past > > behavior. they had been taught this in AA. you dont hear anyone > > outside of aa say, gee, " im grateful for this colon cancer! " they > > way steppers are grateful for alcoholism. This is great, too! I remember being so grateful and glad I wasn't like the rest of the people who hadn't learned to live life on life's terms or acceptence, or who weren't able to be serene like I was while I was evicted and arrested, etc. >RITA> They're " grateful " because they believe they have been " chosen " by HP to hear the Steps and convert the world to steppism. Had they not been problem drinkers, they'd not have gotten such a wonderful chance. (Of course that's BS too, since no matter what bad habit anyone has, a Step group has been invented for it -- I still laugh over " Messies Anonymous " -- the " disease " of sloppiness that HP will save you from if you confess your sins and carry the message) But Powerlessness over CLUTTER is a DISEASE!!! Sloppies!!! ROFLMAO - ow!! my stomach hurts. > > but i more and more conviced thier are just folks in general out > > there who are attracted to this bunk (spirtualism etc..) to cope > > with lifes realites. i personaly dont understand it. especialy the > > types who want to see into the future somehow. why? why your > > looking into future, your wasting today. what are you going to > > learn about tommarow which will make up for the moment you > > just lost while on the pyshic hotline? why are they concerned > > about the future when all that really matters is loving yourself , > > family and friends? why do people need to search and search for > > more meaning than that? I guess that was a serious question. I think people who are fearful or insecure or feeling very powerless may seek to know what will happen in the future. I think they feel so powerless over the now, that they want to get a head start on the next now - improve their chances of achieving something or succeeding in the next now, or at least be ready when some now comes along. Of course, it's funny how people are stupid. But that's plowed ground. >RITA> Well, I have little regard for astrology, psychics, and the like, but probably most people who read that stuff don't take it too seriously, it's just a mildly passing interest for the moment or whatever. I think its about the same as those who read the Bible. Its comforting to them, and they think it is doing them some good somehow. A little like people reading and typing here, we think it is doing us some good , so we do it. Hopefully it is. >RITA> But as far as beinmg concerned about the future -- actually it is normal and healthy to think about the future insofar as making plans for education, self-improvement, etc., and then executing them successfully. I think this is actually one of the destructive things about AA philosophy -- the insistence that you must be involved only with the present (One Day At A Time!). In fact one of the English words seized and distorted by steppers (especially counselors) is " projection " -- they don't use it all all in the way psychologists would (i.e. assuming another person has traits that you yourself do), but rather to mean " projecting into the future " , as in analyzing possible negative outcomes of a plan -- and this, I was told in " treatment " , is a Very Bad Thing, which " makes " people drink and drug again. One of my stepper counselor people, when I told him some of mid range plans said some little quote, " You fail to plan, you plan to fail. " And that reminded of another quote I'd heard recently, " Living is something we do between plans. " I know which one I like better. Projection, when using the stepper definition, does seem to cause a lot of anxiety. Too bad that's not projection, it's negative fantasizing, which is a part of being depressed and a popular thing to do, even a habitual thing to do, when one is depressed. Of course if one doesn't overcome the depression that has caused their alcohol or drug problems, .they are very likely to fall back into those problems. And if they do things (like negative fantasizing) that perpetuate their depression, I think it is true that it can cause a so-called relapse (when the truth is no recovery (or not enough) has occured, but they like to say the opposite, that recovery had occured... because stupid idiots are trying to recover from a fake disease (see above) instead of their depression). Sorry for the runon sentence. I think the best thing to say there is you can not recover from depression if you choose to be depressed, and having depresed thoughts, wallowing in them, is choosing to be deprressed instead of something else. Simple, but not so simple. >RITA> Also, encouraging people to think only about today promotes the " acceptance " ideology of the infamous Page 449 of the BB. As I've posted previously, those of us who feel strongly about making improvements to the world via political action, charitable work, legal work, etc. will find the " acceptance " idea particularly offensive. Legal and political action requires both NON- " acceptance " and concern about the future, and ability to analyze probable outcomes. I can not remember what 449 contains, but acceptance is bullshit. Big Book Acceptance means accepting other people's right to control you, and you can accpet that if you want to, but you don't have to to live, and certainly can't if you want to be happy. 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Guest guest Posted January 31, 2001 Report Share Posted January 31, 2001 Re: My First Time > > > <<warning, rant below. you've been given notice>> > > when i was in aa, my mom was dying from cancer, a real > > disease. it really opened my eyes seeing her suffer and then > > going to meetings and watching people who were apparently > > sober for years talk about thier " cunning , baffling disease " , a > > " disease " which you can apprently turn off by not lifting a glass to > > your lips. >RITA> It still makes my skin crawl every time I hear your story, Dave. I remember you saying the steppers who all claimed to be your " friends " and your " support " never had one fig of real sympathy or support for what you were going through. They expected you to just keep thinking about meetings and steps and maybe even going to extra meetings. And probably they thought (even if they didn't say it) that grief over your mom was a " slippery slope " and " dangerous " like they claim anger is. What insensitive creepos. Yeah, Dave, thanks for writing that! I'd like to go into a meeting and say, " I'll show you a DISEASE you BASTARDS!!! " > > made me see what a masochistic, pathetic box they had put > > themsleves into. they had made themselves victims to their past > > behavior. they had been taught this in AA. you dont hear anyone > > outside of aa say, gee, " im grateful for this colon cancer! " they > > way steppers are grateful for alcoholism. This is great, too! I remember being so grateful and glad I wasn't like the rest of the people who hadn't learned to live life on life's terms or acceptence, or who weren't able to be serene like I was while I was evicted and arrested, etc. >RITA> They're " grateful " because they believe they have been " chosen " by HP to hear the Steps and convert the world to steppism. Had they not been problem drinkers, they'd not have gotten such a wonderful chance. (Of course that's BS too, since no matter what bad habit anyone has, a Step group has been invented for it -- I still laugh over " Messies Anonymous " -- the " disease " of sloppiness that HP will save you from if you confess your sins and carry the message) But Powerlessness over CLUTTER is a DISEASE!!! Sloppies!!! ROFLMAO - ow!! my stomach hurts. > > but i more and more conviced thier are just folks in general out > > there who are attracted to this bunk (spirtualism etc..) to cope > > with lifes realites. i personaly dont understand it. especialy the > > types who want to see into the future somehow. why? why your > > looking into future, your wasting today. what are you going to > > learn about tommarow which will make up for the moment you > > just lost while on the pyshic hotline? why are they concerned > > about the future when all that really matters is loving yourself , > > family and friends? why do people need to search and search for > > more meaning than that? I guess that was a serious question. I think people who are fearful or insecure or feeling very powerless may seek to know what will happen in the future. I think they feel so powerless over the now, that they want to get a head start on the next now - improve their chances of achieving something or succeeding in the next now, or at least be ready when some now comes along. Of course, it's funny how people are stupid. But that's plowed ground. >RITA> Well, I have little regard for astrology, psychics, and the like, but probably most people who read that stuff don't take it too seriously, it's just a mildly passing interest for the moment or whatever. I think its about the same as those who read the Bible. Its comforting to them, and they think it is doing them some good somehow. A little like people reading and typing here, we think it is doing us some good , so we do it. Hopefully it is. >RITA> But as far as beinmg concerned about the future -- actually it is normal and healthy to think about the future insofar as making plans for education, self-improvement, etc., and then executing them successfully. I think this is actually one of the destructive things about AA philosophy -- the insistence that you must be involved only with the present (One Day At A Time!). In fact one of the English words seized and distorted by steppers (especially counselors) is " projection " -- they don't use it all all in the way psychologists would (i.e. assuming another person has traits that you yourself do), but rather to mean " projecting into the future " , as in analyzing possible negative outcomes of a plan -- and this, I was told in " treatment " , is a Very Bad Thing, which " makes " people drink and drug again. One of my stepper counselor people, when I told him some of mid range plans said some little quote, " You fail to plan, you plan to fail. " And that reminded of another quote I'd heard recently, " Living is something we do between plans. " I know which one I like better. Projection, when using the stepper definition, does seem to cause a lot of anxiety. Too bad that's not projection, it's negative fantasizing, which is a part of being depressed and a popular thing to do, even a habitual thing to do, when one is depressed. Of course if one doesn't overcome the depression that has caused their alcohol or drug problems, .they are very likely to fall back into those problems. And if they do things (like negative fantasizing) that perpetuate their depression, I think it is true that it can cause a so-called relapse (when the truth is no recovery (or not enough) has occured, but they like to say the opposite, that recovery had occured... because stupid idiots are trying to recover from a fake disease (see above) instead of their depression). Sorry for the runon sentence. I think the best thing to say there is you can not recover from depression if you choose to be depressed, and having depresed thoughts, wallowing in them, is choosing to be deprressed instead of something else. Simple, but not so simple. >RITA> Also, encouraging people to think only about today promotes the " acceptance " ideology of the infamous Page 449 of the BB. As I've posted previously, those of us who feel strongly about making improvements to the world via political action, charitable work, legal work, etc. will find the " acceptance " idea particularly offensive. Legal and political action requires both NON- " acceptance " and concern about the future, and ability to analyze probable outcomes. I can not remember what 449 contains, but acceptance is bullshit. Big Book Acceptance means accepting other people's right to control you, and you can accpet that if you want to, but you don't have to to live, and certainly can't if you want to be happy. 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Guest guest Posted January 31, 2001 Report Share Posted January 31, 2001 Re: My First Time > Hi, me again... > > > > acutally o learned i coudl do that on my own, havent tried in a > > while but i had knack for saying i will wake up at so and so time, > > even when it was not my normal sleep time, i and would wake > > up. > > > > > > > It's interesting how your friend's higher power " woke " her up. I > > attended a meditation course a few years ago which included a > > section on how to throw away your alarm clock. You take some > > time before going to bed, slow down your mind, and visualize the > > time you would like to wake up. Don't " say " it in your mind. See > > what the clock would look like at the time you want to wake up. > > I was interested you guys picked up on this part...to me it was an > example of the level of trivia and detail that I found people > attributing to their HPs. Constantly. Zealous Christians are the same way. Whenever something goes right, " Praise Jesus " whenever somethig goes wrong, " Damn me " . I think everyone in this group probably picked up on that. AAs certainly are powerless over everything but their imagination wh4en it comes to their HP. That is, if it was a positive > thing in their lives. If it was a negative or they happened to make > a bad decision, it was " self-will run riot. " I could never reconcile > the way I felt about that with the group norm. It was me, after all, > who decided to come to the meeting, me who decided not to drink, me > who decided all the infinitesimal decisions that we are all > confronted with daily. The idea of this HP hanging around over my > shoulder making sure my outfit didn't clash just didn't sit well with > me. ;^) And it was YOU who stayed sober. Thats where they get ya! They claim YOU can't. Tell'em to go to hell. > Then some really bad things did happen: 4 miscarriages in 1 1/2 > years. The reaction went along the lines of " God never gives us more > than we can handle, " " You're probably lucky...who knows what would > have happened if that hadn't of, there was probably something > wrong. " Some even questioned if I'd gone back to drinking, perhaps > calling down the HP's wrath and insinuating that the baby might have > been alcohol syndrome. I hadn't had a drop in years at that point. You were still around steppers? Maybe God was punishing you for being around steppers! Thats what you should tell the hurtful ones. I don't know how that sounds to you. Maybe its not amusing, but I must say I am very very sorry you " handled " so much shit. > I don't think those people were intentionally trying to make me sad > and angry. I just think that real problems are beyond the scope of > what they can come to grips with. Waking up on time, now THAT we can > deal with. What puzzles me is why I ever expected more!!!!!!!! let me just say it wasn't your best thinking that got you there, I'd say your best thinking got you out. Some of your worst thinking got you in with that horde of demons. > I can't seem to shake it: THANKS for letting me share! > Thank you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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