Guest guest Posted January 16, 2001 Report Share Posted January 16, 2001 I would add the text of " How it Works " to this as well Dave. http://www.addictions.org/aa/works.htm Notice the use of the words... " *rarely* have we seen a person fail who has *thoroughly* followed our path " Those who do not recover are people who will not *completely* give themselves to this *simple* program, usually men and women who are constitutionally incapable of being honest with themselves. Some of have tried to hold on to our old ideas and the result was nill until we *let go absolutely* Here are the steps we took, which are *suggested* as a program of recovery:. That one always baffled me. So which is it? Take what you need & leave the rest or take it all or die? Let go absolutely or it's all suggestive? Apple > this is something i had wrritten about this: > > " Often steppers will claim the steps are only " suggestions " as > way of defusing rational criticism of their content. > proposes this idea here: > > " Who first suggested the actual compromise words I do not > know, but they are words well-known throughout the length and > breadth of AA today: In Step Two we decided to describe God as > a " Power greater than ourselves. " In Steps Three and Eleven we > inserted the words " God as we understood him. " From Step > Seven we deleted the expression " on our knees. " And, as a > lead-in sentence to all the steps we wrote the words: " Here are > the steps we took which are suggested as a Program of > Recovery. " AA's Twelve Steps were to be suggestions only. > > Such were the final concessions to those of little or no faith; this > was the great contribution of our atheists and agnostics. They > had widened our gateway so that all who suffer might pass > through, regardless of their belief or lack of belief. " > > -- Bill , from " The Three Legacies of Alcoholics > Anonymous: Service " > in Alcoholics Anonymous Comes of Age, page 167 > > > " Suggestions " ? contradicts himself in the very same > book when he says (suggests?) the opposite: > > " unless each AA member follows to the best of his ability our > suggested Twelve Steps of recovery, he almost certainly signs > his own death warrant . . . We must obey certain principles or we > die. " > > , W.] (1957). Alcoholics Anonymous Comes of Age, New > York: > Alcoholics Anonymous World Services, Inc., page 119 > > > and in the Alcoholics Anonymous Big Book, " We Agnostics " > " To one who feels he is an atheist or agnostic such an > experience seems impossible, but to continue as he is means > disaster, especially if he is an alcoholic of the hopeless variety. > To be doomed to an alcoholic death or to live on a spiritual basis > are not always easy alternatives to face. " > > > These same principles he claims are mearly " suggested " to > newcommers must be obeyed or " we die " Not much of a choice > there in these so called " suggestions " . nor is it much of a > " concessions to those of little or no faith " . This is clearly double > think. Double think is a concept termed by Orwell. It is > language and thought which is designed for miscommunication > and distortion. Orwell wrote the following, " Doublethink means > the power of holding two contradictory beliefs in ones mind > simultaneously, and accepting both of them. " Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 16, 2001 Report Share Posted January 16, 2001 the thing is ,its a language of non communication, wilson at times doesn tmake it clear which one is real, and by doing so, (as politicians will do at times) he gains the added power of covering ALL his bases. he can make an appeal which will seem to appease these who are non believers and say this is what you need, and he can also in same breath to those who are god fearing say " you need us our you will die. " by purposely contradicting himself (with a logic im sure made sense to himself) he expands his program past the limited audience it was originally appealing too, but without making any real change in what it is he is selling, or attacking for that matter. ( " we agnostics " ) its the language equivalent of smoke and mirrors. > I would add the text of " How it Works " to this as well Dave. > http://www.addictions.org/aa/works.htm > > Notice the use of the words... " *rarely* have we seen a person fail who > has *thoroughly* followed our path " > > Those who do not recover are people who will not *completely* give > themselves to this *simple* program, usually men and women who are > constitutionally incapable of being honest with themselves. > > Some of have tried to hold on to our old ideas and the result was > nill until we *let go absolutely* > > Here are the steps we took, which are *suggested* as a program of > recovery:. > > That one always baffled me. So which is it? Take what you need & leave > the rest or take it all or die? Let go absolutely or it's all > suggestive? > > Apple > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 16, 2001 Report Share Posted January 16, 2001 the thing is ,its a language of non communication, wilson at times doesn tmake it clear which one is real, and by doing so, (as politicians will do at times) he gains the added power of covering ALL his bases. he can make an appeal which will seem to appease these who are non believers and say this is what you need, and he can also in same breath to those who are god fearing say " you need us our you will die. " by purposely contradicting himself (with a logic im sure made sense to himself) he expands his program past the limited audience it was originally appealing too, but without making any real change in what it is he is selling, or attacking for that matter. ( " we agnostics " ) its the language equivalent of smoke and mirrors. > I would add the text of " How it Works " to this as well Dave. > http://www.addictions.org/aa/works.htm > > Notice the use of the words... " *rarely* have we seen a person fail who > has *thoroughly* followed our path " > > Those who do not recover are people who will not *completely* give > themselves to this *simple* program, usually men and women who are > constitutionally incapable of being honest with themselves. > > Some of have tried to hold on to our old ideas and the result was > nill until we *let go absolutely* > > Here are the steps we took, which are *suggested* as a program of > recovery:. > > That one always baffled me. So which is it? Take what you need & leave > the rest or take it all or die? Let go absolutely or it's all > suggestive? > > Apple > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 16, 2001 Report Share Posted January 16, 2001 the thing is ,its a language of non communication, wilson at times doesn tmake it clear which one is real, and by doing so, (as politicians will do at times) he gains the added power of covering ALL his bases. he can make an appeal which will seem to appease these who are non believers and say this is what you need, and he can also in same breath to those who are god fearing say " you need us our you will die. " by purposely contradicting himself (with a logic im sure made sense to himself) he expands his program past the limited audience it was originally appealing too, but without making any real change in what it is he is selling, or attacking for that matter. ( " we agnostics " ) its the language equivalent of smoke and mirrors. > I would add the text of " How it Works " to this as well Dave. > http://www.addictions.org/aa/works.htm > > Notice the use of the words... " *rarely* have we seen a person fail who > has *thoroughly* followed our path " > > Those who do not recover are people who will not *completely* give > themselves to this *simple* program, usually men and women who are > constitutionally incapable of being honest with themselves. > > Some of have tried to hold on to our old ideas and the result was > nill until we *let go absolutely* > > Here are the steps we took, which are *suggested* as a program of > recovery:. > > That one always baffled me. So which is it? Take what you need & leave > the rest or take it all or die? Let go absolutely or it's all > suggestive? > > Apple > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 16, 2001 Report Share Posted January 16, 2001 Hi Nick welcome to 12sf. I have been making exactly the same points abt 12-step treatment on a professional addiction medicine list and getting the same rationalization responses. I'm so sorry to hear of the death of your friend but relieved that you are doing so well yourself. I remmebr being skeptical when Ken Ragge wrote that he thinks AA makes ppl suicidal but then I hear stories like this and in fact I became quite suicidal myself when I was very heavily involved in 12-step. I was in the " Betty Ford of England " and the guy who runs it was also my sponsor! He has written a lot of addiction stuff himself - couldnt get anyone to publish it so he published it himself - I note Hazelden publishes its own stuff. He claims to be an athesit and the disease model of addiction is scientific, but why for example does he write things like the sufferer has " a distorted relationship to God " ? Occasionally those concerned with mental health talk abt " spirituality " but it's pretty odd to see such a reference in a supposedly scoentific book. He also wrote " Spirituality for atheists and agnostics " which is basically his personal story of doing the 12 steps, in which " God " features a lot for a supposed atheist. When I did my Step 5 with him, he said " There are three people in this room. You, me, and God " ! P. > Apple, > In my opinion, that very paragraph is the backbone of the treatment industry scam...i.e., " it works if you work it. " My statement is: " Never have I seen a treatment center admit that a patient didn't succeed because they were not given the proper treatment. It is always the responsibility of the patient. They accept many patients for six, seven, even more admissions, because they have the disease of addiction, which is characterized by repeated relapses. " Only in the addiction treatment field, a scam filled with so many grey areas which are cloaked by the spiritual principles of anonymity, could they get away with this self-serving, inhumane garbage. > > It is a simple program, so is the Moonies, they're even more adamant about alcohol abstinence! Of course, that's why as a cult they wouldn't attract as many people-the meeting people love it when people keep drinking and still coming to meetings, it shows that it " keeps it green " and eventually mabye they'll " surrender. " > > I threw me into a fit when a close friend of mind committed suicide on step four. The details are too painful for me to think about right now, but yea, it makes me angry as hell!! Especially because I went through two treatments with her, and she was doing great in the first one, the first she did great, it was more mental health based with not much 12-step stuff, the second one was more of a Synanon communal type, and she, of course, went downhill quickly. Does AA kill? In this case, to this girl, AA killed her, and I saved a copy of her suicide note to remember the pain she went through with her dictatorial sponsor and the abusive treatment staff. I wish this treatment center would be profiled, maybe on Fransway's page where she includes a " Freedom Hater of the Month " . The doc-guru that runs it, Frances, out to be quarantined for the disease of sadism. Some people call this place " The Betty Ford of the East " because it attracts so many rich people, some ! > of whom are just bored housewive > s who think it might be nifty to be diagnosed with some personality disorder that they don't really have, but this hospital loves that kind of stuff. Dr. Frances has even written some of the most inaccurate yet most professionally presented text on " the disease of alcoholism " , one of his books just recently came out and I'm trying to get a copy of it. > > Sorry, I'm rambling. = ) Anyways, Apple, I've been meaning to e-mail you for a long time, if you're not too busy I'd like to chat with you, could you send me your e-mail address? Mine is NKCT1980@a... And I owe you a tremendous THANK YOU, by the way, it's a long story, but if it weren't for your website and Jack Trimpey I wouldn't be starting college next week and living a happier life. Hope I get a chance to write to you directly soon. > > Best, > > Nick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 16, 2001 Report Share Posted January 16, 2001 Hi Nick welcome to 12sf. I have been making exactly the same points abt 12-step treatment on a professional addiction medicine list and getting the same rationalization responses. I'm so sorry to hear of the death of your friend but relieved that you are doing so well yourself. I remmebr being skeptical when Ken Ragge wrote that he thinks AA makes ppl suicidal but then I hear stories like this and in fact I became quite suicidal myself when I was very heavily involved in 12-step. I was in the " Betty Ford of England " and the guy who runs it was also my sponsor! He has written a lot of addiction stuff himself - couldnt get anyone to publish it so he published it himself - I note Hazelden publishes its own stuff. He claims to be an athesit and the disease model of addiction is scientific, but why for example does he write things like the sufferer has " a distorted relationship to God " ? Occasionally those concerned with mental health talk abt " spirituality " but it's pretty odd to see such a reference in a supposedly scoentific book. He also wrote " Spirituality for atheists and agnostics " which is basically his personal story of doing the 12 steps, in which " God " features a lot for a supposed atheist. When I did my Step 5 with him, he said " There are three people in this room. You, me, and God " ! P. > Apple, > In my opinion, that very paragraph is the backbone of the treatment industry scam...i.e., " it works if you work it. " My statement is: " Never have I seen a treatment center admit that a patient didn't succeed because they were not given the proper treatment. It is always the responsibility of the patient. They accept many patients for six, seven, even more admissions, because they have the disease of addiction, which is characterized by repeated relapses. " Only in the addiction treatment field, a scam filled with so many grey areas which are cloaked by the spiritual principles of anonymity, could they get away with this self-serving, inhumane garbage. > > It is a simple program, so is the Moonies, they're even more adamant about alcohol abstinence! Of course, that's why as a cult they wouldn't attract as many people-the meeting people love it when people keep drinking and still coming to meetings, it shows that it " keeps it green " and eventually mabye they'll " surrender. " > > I threw me into a fit when a close friend of mind committed suicide on step four. The details are too painful for me to think about right now, but yea, it makes me angry as hell!! Especially because I went through two treatments with her, and she was doing great in the first one, the first she did great, it was more mental health based with not much 12-step stuff, the second one was more of a Synanon communal type, and she, of course, went downhill quickly. Does AA kill? In this case, to this girl, AA killed her, and I saved a copy of her suicide note to remember the pain she went through with her dictatorial sponsor and the abusive treatment staff. I wish this treatment center would be profiled, maybe on Fransway's page where she includes a " Freedom Hater of the Month " . The doc-guru that runs it, Frances, out to be quarantined for the disease of sadism. Some people call this place " The Betty Ford of the East " because it attracts so many rich people, some ! > of whom are just bored housewive > s who think it might be nifty to be diagnosed with some personality disorder that they don't really have, but this hospital loves that kind of stuff. Dr. Frances has even written some of the most inaccurate yet most professionally presented text on " the disease of alcoholism " , one of his books just recently came out and I'm trying to get a copy of it. > > Sorry, I'm rambling. = ) Anyways, Apple, I've been meaning to e-mail you for a long time, if you're not too busy I'd like to chat with you, could you send me your e-mail address? Mine is NKCT1980@a... And I owe you a tremendous THANK YOU, by the way, it's a long story, but if it weren't for your website and Jack Trimpey I wouldn't be starting college next week and living a happier life. Hope I get a chance to write to you directly soon. > > Best, > > Nick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 16, 2001 Report Share Posted January 16, 2001 Hi Nick welcome to 12sf. I have been making exactly the same points abt 12-step treatment on a professional addiction medicine list and getting the same rationalization responses. I'm so sorry to hear of the death of your friend but relieved that you are doing so well yourself. I remmebr being skeptical when Ken Ragge wrote that he thinks AA makes ppl suicidal but then I hear stories like this and in fact I became quite suicidal myself when I was very heavily involved in 12-step. I was in the " Betty Ford of England " and the guy who runs it was also my sponsor! He has written a lot of addiction stuff himself - couldnt get anyone to publish it so he published it himself - I note Hazelden publishes its own stuff. He claims to be an athesit and the disease model of addiction is scientific, but why for example does he write things like the sufferer has " a distorted relationship to God " ? Occasionally those concerned with mental health talk abt " spirituality " but it's pretty odd to see such a reference in a supposedly scoentific book. He also wrote " Spirituality for atheists and agnostics " which is basically his personal story of doing the 12 steps, in which " God " features a lot for a supposed atheist. When I did my Step 5 with him, he said " There are three people in this room. You, me, and God " ! P. > Apple, > In my opinion, that very paragraph is the backbone of the treatment industry scam...i.e., " it works if you work it. " My statement is: " Never have I seen a treatment center admit that a patient didn't succeed because they were not given the proper treatment. It is always the responsibility of the patient. They accept many patients for six, seven, even more admissions, because they have the disease of addiction, which is characterized by repeated relapses. " Only in the addiction treatment field, a scam filled with so many grey areas which are cloaked by the spiritual principles of anonymity, could they get away with this self-serving, inhumane garbage. > > It is a simple program, so is the Moonies, they're even more adamant about alcohol abstinence! Of course, that's why as a cult they wouldn't attract as many people-the meeting people love it when people keep drinking and still coming to meetings, it shows that it " keeps it green " and eventually mabye they'll " surrender. " > > I threw me into a fit when a close friend of mind committed suicide on step four. The details are too painful for me to think about right now, but yea, it makes me angry as hell!! Especially because I went through two treatments with her, and she was doing great in the first one, the first she did great, it was more mental health based with not much 12-step stuff, the second one was more of a Synanon communal type, and she, of course, went downhill quickly. Does AA kill? In this case, to this girl, AA killed her, and I saved a copy of her suicide note to remember the pain she went through with her dictatorial sponsor and the abusive treatment staff. I wish this treatment center would be profiled, maybe on Fransway's page where she includes a " Freedom Hater of the Month " . The doc-guru that runs it, Frances, out to be quarantined for the disease of sadism. Some people call this place " The Betty Ford of the East " because it attracts so many rich people, some ! > of whom are just bored housewive > s who think it might be nifty to be diagnosed with some personality disorder that they don't really have, but this hospital loves that kind of stuff. Dr. Frances has even written some of the most inaccurate yet most professionally presented text on " the disease of alcoholism " , one of his books just recently came out and I'm trying to get a copy of it. > > Sorry, I'm rambling. = ) Anyways, Apple, I've been meaning to e-mail you for a long time, if you're not too busy I'd like to chat with you, could you send me your e-mail address? Mine is NKCT1980@a... And I owe you a tremendous THANK YOU, by the way, it's a long story, but if it weren't for your website and Jack Trimpey I wouldn't be starting college next week and living a happier life. Hope I get a chance to write to you directly soon. > > Best, > > Nick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 16, 2001 Report Share Posted January 16, 2001 Thanks for posting this Nick. I know of people who felt suicidal after the 4th step, but none who actually commited suicide. I knew a woman whose husband of 23 yrs left her for his secretary. She had no living skills because he did everything. On top of that, she had been raped at age 15 by the doctor whom she went to for an abortion. Never went to therapy back then, just internalized heavy duty low self-esteem because of it. Anyway, when she made it to AA she was a fragile mess. One of the old timer women took her under her wing and insisted that she do an " emergency 4th step " . Emergency because she was so so very depressed. The 4th step was supposed to free her of her old baggage. I never saw anyone do such a thorough 4th step. She must have written 45 pages. Then her sponsor helped her find her part. Needless to say, she felt suicidal for weeks afterwards, left AA and resumed drinking. In her case, I think the drinking may have saved her, because though she was a daily drinker, she didn't drink to excess, just to tipsyness. Nick, you can e-mail me at the website. http://www.AAdeprogramming.com I'll be happy to chat with you. Apple > Apple, > In my opinion, that very paragraph is the backbone of the treatment industry scam...i.e., " it works if you work it. " My statement is: " Never have I seen a treatment center admit that a patient didn't succeed because they were not given the proper treatment. It is always the responsibility of the patient. They accept many patients for six, seven, even more admissions, because they have the disease of addiction, which is characterized by repeated relapses. " Only in the addiction treatment field, a scam filled with so many grey areas which are cloaked by the spiritual principles of anonymity, could they get away with this self-serving, inhumane garbage. > > It is a simple program, so is the Moonies, they're even more adamant about alcohol abstinence! Of course, that's why as a cult they wouldn't attract as many people-the meeting people love it when people keep drinking and still coming to meetings, it shows that it " keeps it green " and eventually mabye they'll " surrender. " > > I threw me into a fit when a close friend of mind committed suicide on step four. The details are too painful for me to think about right now, but yea, it makes me angry as hell!! Especially because I went through two treatments with her, and she was doing great in the first one, the first she did great, it was more mental health based with not much 12-step stuff, the second one was more of a Synanon communal type, and she, of course, went downhill quickly. Does AA kill? In this case, to this girl, AA killed her, and I saved a copy of her suicide note to remember the pain she went through with her dictatorial sponsor and the abusive treatment staff. I wish this treatment center would be profiled, maybe on Fransway's page where she includes a " Freedom Hater of the Month " . The doc-guru that runs it, Frances, out to be quarantined for the disease of sadism. Some people call this place " The Betty Ford of the East " because it attracts so many rich people, some ! > of whom are just bored housewive > s who think it might be nifty to be diagnosed with some personality disorder that they don't really have, but this hospital loves that kind of stuff. Dr. Frances has even written some of the most inaccurate yet most professionally presented text on " the disease of alcoholism " , one of his books just recently came out and I'm trying to get a copy of it. > > Sorry, I'm rambling. = ) Anyways, Apple, I've been meaning to e-mail you for a long time, if you're not too busy I'd like to chat with you, could you send me your e-mail address? Mine is NKCT1980@a... And I owe you a tremendous THANK YOU, by the way, it's a long story, but if it weren't for your website and Jack Trimpey I wouldn't be starting college next week and living a happier life. Hope I get a chance to write to you directly soon. > > Best, > > Nick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 16, 2001 Report Share Posted January 16, 2001 Thanks for posting this Nick. I know of people who felt suicidal after the 4th step, but none who actually commited suicide. I knew a woman whose husband of 23 yrs left her for his secretary. She had no living skills because he did everything. On top of that, she had been raped at age 15 by the doctor whom she went to for an abortion. Never went to therapy back then, just internalized heavy duty low self-esteem because of it. Anyway, when she made it to AA she was a fragile mess. One of the old timer women took her under her wing and insisted that she do an " emergency 4th step " . Emergency because she was so so very depressed. The 4th step was supposed to free her of her old baggage. I never saw anyone do such a thorough 4th step. She must have written 45 pages. Then her sponsor helped her find her part. Needless to say, she felt suicidal for weeks afterwards, left AA and resumed drinking. In her case, I think the drinking may have saved her, because though she was a daily drinker, she didn't drink to excess, just to tipsyness. Nick, you can e-mail me at the website. http://www.AAdeprogramming.com I'll be happy to chat with you. Apple > Apple, > In my opinion, that very paragraph is the backbone of the treatment industry scam...i.e., " it works if you work it. " My statement is: " Never have I seen a treatment center admit that a patient didn't succeed because they were not given the proper treatment. It is always the responsibility of the patient. They accept many patients for six, seven, even more admissions, because they have the disease of addiction, which is characterized by repeated relapses. " Only in the addiction treatment field, a scam filled with so many grey areas which are cloaked by the spiritual principles of anonymity, could they get away with this self-serving, inhumane garbage. > > It is a simple program, so is the Moonies, they're even more adamant about alcohol abstinence! Of course, that's why as a cult they wouldn't attract as many people-the meeting people love it when people keep drinking and still coming to meetings, it shows that it " keeps it green " and eventually mabye they'll " surrender. " > > I threw me into a fit when a close friend of mind committed suicide on step four. The details are too painful for me to think about right now, but yea, it makes me angry as hell!! Especially because I went through two treatments with her, and she was doing great in the first one, the first she did great, it was more mental health based with not much 12-step stuff, the second one was more of a Synanon communal type, and she, of course, went downhill quickly. Does AA kill? In this case, to this girl, AA killed her, and I saved a copy of her suicide note to remember the pain she went through with her dictatorial sponsor and the abusive treatment staff. I wish this treatment center would be profiled, maybe on Fransway's page where she includes a " Freedom Hater of the Month " . The doc-guru that runs it, Frances, out to be quarantined for the disease of sadism. Some people call this place " The Betty Ford of the East " because it attracts so many rich people, some ! > of whom are just bored housewive > s who think it might be nifty to be diagnosed with some personality disorder that they don't really have, but this hospital loves that kind of stuff. Dr. Frances has even written some of the most inaccurate yet most professionally presented text on " the disease of alcoholism " , one of his books just recently came out and I'm trying to get a copy of it. > > Sorry, I'm rambling. = ) Anyways, Apple, I've been meaning to e-mail you for a long time, if you're not too busy I'd like to chat with you, could you send me your e-mail address? Mine is NKCT1980@a... And I owe you a tremendous THANK YOU, by the way, it's a long story, but if it weren't for your website and Jack Trimpey I wouldn't be starting college next week and living a happier life. Hope I get a chance to write to you directly soon. > > Best, > > Nick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 16, 2001 Report Share Posted January 16, 2001 Thanks for posting this Nick. I know of people who felt suicidal after the 4th step, but none who actually commited suicide. I knew a woman whose husband of 23 yrs left her for his secretary. She had no living skills because he did everything. On top of that, she had been raped at age 15 by the doctor whom she went to for an abortion. Never went to therapy back then, just internalized heavy duty low self-esteem because of it. Anyway, when she made it to AA she was a fragile mess. One of the old timer women took her under her wing and insisted that she do an " emergency 4th step " . Emergency because she was so so very depressed. The 4th step was supposed to free her of her old baggage. I never saw anyone do such a thorough 4th step. She must have written 45 pages. Then her sponsor helped her find her part. Needless to say, she felt suicidal for weeks afterwards, left AA and resumed drinking. In her case, I think the drinking may have saved her, because though she was a daily drinker, she didn't drink to excess, just to tipsyness. Nick, you can e-mail me at the website. http://www.AAdeprogramming.com I'll be happy to chat with you. Apple > Apple, > In my opinion, that very paragraph is the backbone of the treatment industry scam...i.e., " it works if you work it. " My statement is: " Never have I seen a treatment center admit that a patient didn't succeed because they were not given the proper treatment. It is always the responsibility of the patient. They accept many patients for six, seven, even more admissions, because they have the disease of addiction, which is characterized by repeated relapses. " Only in the addiction treatment field, a scam filled with so many grey areas which are cloaked by the spiritual principles of anonymity, could they get away with this self-serving, inhumane garbage. > > It is a simple program, so is the Moonies, they're even more adamant about alcohol abstinence! Of course, that's why as a cult they wouldn't attract as many people-the meeting people love it when people keep drinking and still coming to meetings, it shows that it " keeps it green " and eventually mabye they'll " surrender. " > > I threw me into a fit when a close friend of mind committed suicide on step four. The details are too painful for me to think about right now, but yea, it makes me angry as hell!! Especially because I went through two treatments with her, and she was doing great in the first one, the first she did great, it was more mental health based with not much 12-step stuff, the second one was more of a Synanon communal type, and she, of course, went downhill quickly. Does AA kill? In this case, to this girl, AA killed her, and I saved a copy of her suicide note to remember the pain she went through with her dictatorial sponsor and the abusive treatment staff. I wish this treatment center would be profiled, maybe on Fransway's page where she includes a " Freedom Hater of the Month " . The doc-guru that runs it, Frances, out to be quarantined for the disease of sadism. Some people call this place " The Betty Ford of the East " because it attracts so many rich people, some ! > of whom are just bored housewive > s who think it might be nifty to be diagnosed with some personality disorder that they don't really have, but this hospital loves that kind of stuff. Dr. Frances has even written some of the most inaccurate yet most professionally presented text on " the disease of alcoholism " , one of his books just recently came out and I'm trying to get a copy of it. > > Sorry, I'm rambling. = ) Anyways, Apple, I've been meaning to e-mail you for a long time, if you're not too busy I'd like to chat with you, could you send me your e-mail address? Mine is NKCT1980@a... And I owe you a tremendous THANK YOU, by the way, it's a long story, but if it weren't for your website and Jack Trimpey I wouldn't be starting college next week and living a happier life. Hope I get a chance to write to you directly soon. > > Best, > > Nick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 16, 2001 Report Share Posted January 16, 2001 Tuesday, January 16, 2001, 11:13:57 AM, you wrote: > That one always baffled me. So which is it? Take what you need & leave > the rest or take it all or die? Let go absolutely or it's all > suggestive? > Apple I think the whole philosophy is like jelly- impossible to nail down in many key areas. You have it written one way, then the next thing you read is where it is written another way. When you ask for help in understanding the program you're told to " read the Big Book " . Any thinking person would be confused- that is until they learn to to ask questions and not to look for any logic. This is my theory- AA is not a group for alcoholism recovery- AA is a group for survivors of AA. Once you survive the program and are still sober, you become one of an important and (to an extent) powerful minority, since most don't survive it. Surviving the program puts you in a place where, having survived it, you can become an authority on it. So when someone says the program contradicts itself you can shake your head sadly and say they are not ready, and that it is a really simple program. And tell them to go read the book again. Joe B. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 16, 2001 Report Share Posted January 16, 2001 Tuesday, January 16, 2001, 11:13:57 AM, you wrote: > That one always baffled me. So which is it? Take what you need & leave > the rest or take it all or die? Let go absolutely or it's all > suggestive? > Apple I think the whole philosophy is like jelly- impossible to nail down in many key areas. You have it written one way, then the next thing you read is where it is written another way. When you ask for help in understanding the program you're told to " read the Big Book " . Any thinking person would be confused- that is until they learn to to ask questions and not to look for any logic. This is my theory- AA is not a group for alcoholism recovery- AA is a group for survivors of AA. Once you survive the program and are still sober, you become one of an important and (to an extent) powerful minority, since most don't survive it. Surviving the program puts you in a place where, having survived it, you can become an authority on it. So when someone says the program contradicts itself you can shake your head sadly and say they are not ready, and that it is a really simple program. And tell them to go read the book again. Joe B. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 16, 2001 Report Share Posted January 16, 2001 Tuesday, January 16, 2001, 11:13:57 AM, you wrote: > That one always baffled me. So which is it? Take what you need & leave > the rest or take it all or die? Let go absolutely or it's all > suggestive? > Apple I think the whole philosophy is like jelly- impossible to nail down in many key areas. You have it written one way, then the next thing you read is where it is written another way. When you ask for help in understanding the program you're told to " read the Big Book " . Any thinking person would be confused- that is until they learn to to ask questions and not to look for any logic. This is my theory- AA is not a group for alcoholism recovery- AA is a group for survivors of AA. Once you survive the program and are still sober, you become one of an important and (to an extent) powerful minority, since most don't survive it. Surviving the program puts you in a place where, having survived it, you can become an authority on it. So when someone says the program contradicts itself you can shake your head sadly and say they are not ready, and that it is a really simple program. And tell them to go read the book again. Joe B. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 16, 2001 Report Share Posted January 16, 2001 Joe, you've always been able to cut through the bullsh*t with such surgical precision. I love it. I've clipped your response and will incorporate it into some piece on the deprogramming site somehow. To think, I lost out on all that potential glory by leaving AA. Apple > > > That one always baffled me. So which is it? Take what you need & leave > > the rest or take it all or die? Let go absolutely or it's all > > suggestive? > > > Apple > > I think the whole philosophy is like jelly- impossible to nail down in > many key areas. You have it written one way, then the next thing you > read is where it is written another way. When you ask for help in > understanding the program you're told to " read the Big Book " . Any > thinking person would be confused- that is until they learn to to ask > questions and not to look for any logic. This is my theory- AA is not > a group for alcoholism recovery- AA is a group for survivors of AA. > Once you survive the program and are still sober, you become one of an > important and (to an extent) powerful minority, since most don't > survive it. Surviving the program puts you in a place where, having > survived it, you can become an authority on it. So when someone says > the program contradicts itself you can shake your head sadly and say > they are not ready, and that it is a really simple program. And tell > them to go read the book again. > > Joe B. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 16, 2001 Report Share Posted January 16, 2001 Joe, you've always been able to cut through the bullsh*t with such surgical precision. I love it. I've clipped your response and will incorporate it into some piece on the deprogramming site somehow. To think, I lost out on all that potential glory by leaving AA. Apple > > > That one always baffled me. So which is it? Take what you need & leave > > the rest or take it all or die? Let go absolutely or it's all > > suggestive? > > > Apple > > I think the whole philosophy is like jelly- impossible to nail down in > many key areas. You have it written one way, then the next thing you > read is where it is written another way. When you ask for help in > understanding the program you're told to " read the Big Book " . Any > thinking person would be confused- that is until they learn to to ask > questions and not to look for any logic. This is my theory- AA is not > a group for alcoholism recovery- AA is a group for survivors of AA. > Once you survive the program and are still sober, you become one of an > important and (to an extent) powerful minority, since most don't > survive it. Surviving the program puts you in a place where, having > survived it, you can become an authority on it. So when someone says > the program contradicts itself you can shake your head sadly and say > they are not ready, and that it is a really simple program. And tell > them to go read the book again. > > Joe B. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 16, 2001 Report Share Posted January 16, 2001 Joe, you've always been able to cut through the bullsh*t with such surgical precision. I love it. I've clipped your response and will incorporate it into some piece on the deprogramming site somehow. To think, I lost out on all that potential glory by leaving AA. Apple > > > That one always baffled me. So which is it? Take what you need & leave > > the rest or take it all or die? Let go absolutely or it's all > > suggestive? > > > Apple > > I think the whole philosophy is like jelly- impossible to nail down in > many key areas. You have it written one way, then the next thing you > read is where it is written another way. When you ask for help in > understanding the program you're told to " read the Big Book " . Any > thinking person would be confused- that is until they learn to to ask > questions and not to look for any logic. This is my theory- AA is not > a group for alcoholism recovery- AA is a group for survivors of AA. > Once you survive the program and are still sober, you become one of an > important and (to an extent) powerful minority, since most don't > survive it. Surviving the program puts you in a place where, having > survived it, you can become an authority on it. So when someone says > the program contradicts itself you can shake your head sadly and say > they are not ready, and that it is a really simple program. And tell > them to go read the book again. > > Joe B. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 16, 2001 Report Share Posted January 16, 2001 Joe, By any chance are you from NYC? Just had this feeling you might be someone I know. Never hurts to ask... Pat > > > That one always baffled me. So which is it? Take what you need & leave > > the rest or take it all or die? Let go absolutely or it's all > > suggestive? > > > Apple > > I think the whole philosophy is like jelly- impossible to nail down in > many key areas. You have it written one way, then the next thing you > read is where it is written another way. When you ask for help in > understanding the program you're told to " read the Big Book " . Any > thinking person would be confused- that is until they learn to to ask > questions and not to look for any logic. This is my theory- AA is not > a group for alcoholism recovery- AA is a group for survivors of AA. > Once you survive the program and are still sober, you become one of an > important and (to an extent) powerful minority, since most don't > survive it. Surviving the program puts you in a place where, having > survived it, you can become an authority on it. So when someone says > the program contradicts itself you can shake your head sadly and say > they are not ready, and that it is a really simple program. And tell > them to go read the book again. > > Joe B. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 16, 2001 Report Share Posted January 16, 2001 Joe, By any chance are you from NYC? Just had this feeling you might be someone I know. Never hurts to ask... Pat > > > That one always baffled me. So which is it? Take what you need & leave > > the rest or take it all or die? Let go absolutely or it's all > > suggestive? > > > Apple > > I think the whole philosophy is like jelly- impossible to nail down in > many key areas. You have it written one way, then the next thing you > read is where it is written another way. When you ask for help in > understanding the program you're told to " read the Big Book " . Any > thinking person would be confused- that is until they learn to to ask > questions and not to look for any logic. This is my theory- AA is not > a group for alcoholism recovery- AA is a group for survivors of AA. > Once you survive the program and are still sober, you become one of an > important and (to an extent) powerful minority, since most don't > survive it. Surviving the program puts you in a place where, having > survived it, you can become an authority on it. So when someone says > the program contradicts itself you can shake your head sadly and say > they are not ready, and that it is a really simple program. And tell > them to go read the book again. > > Joe B. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 16, 2001 Report Share Posted January 16, 2001 Joe, By any chance are you from NYC? Just had this feeling you might be someone I know. Never hurts to ask... Pat > > > That one always baffled me. So which is it? Take what you need & leave > > the rest or take it all or die? Let go absolutely or it's all > > suggestive? > > > Apple > > I think the whole philosophy is like jelly- impossible to nail down in > many key areas. You have it written one way, then the next thing you > read is where it is written another way. When you ask for help in > understanding the program you're told to " read the Big Book " . Any > thinking person would be confused- that is until they learn to to ask > questions and not to look for any logic. This is my theory- AA is not > a group for alcoholism recovery- AA is a group for survivors of AA. > Once you survive the program and are still sober, you become one of an > important and (to an extent) powerful minority, since most don't > survive it. Surviving the program puts you in a place where, having > survived it, you can become an authority on it. So when someone says > the program contradicts itself you can shake your head sadly and say > they are not ready, and that it is a really simple program. And tell > them to go read the book again. > > Joe B. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 17, 2001 Report Share Posted January 17, 2001 Wednesday, January 17, 2001, 5:05:25 AM, you wrote: > Joe, > By any chance are you from NYC? Just had this feeling you might be > someone I know. Never hurts to ask... > Pat No, I'm in, and from, the UK. Joe B. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 17, 2001 Report Share Posted January 17, 2001 Wednesday, January 17, 2001, 5:05:25 AM, you wrote: > Joe, > By any chance are you from NYC? Just had this feeling you might be > someone I know. Never hurts to ask... > Pat No, I'm in, and from, the UK. Joe B. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 17, 2001 Report Share Posted January 17, 2001 Wednesday, January 17, 2001, 5:05:25 AM, you wrote: > Joe, > By any chance are you from NYC? Just had this feeling you might be > someone I know. Never hurts to ask... > Pat No, I'm in, and from, the UK. Joe B. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 17, 2001 Report Share Posted January 17, 2001 Hey apple, Alot of the meetings I went to started out like " thorougly " have we seen a person fail who " rarely " followed our path. And I sat in the last row most of the time and would often hear that back row people would most likely fail. Still here and happy, 12-step free. mb > >Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups >To: 12-step-freeegroups >Subject: Re: Double Bookkeeping >Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 11:13:57 -0000 > >I would add the text of " How it Works " to this as well Dave. >http://www.addictions.org/aa/works.htm > >Notice the use of the words... " *rarely* have we seen a person fail who >has *thoroughly* followed our path " > > Those who do not recover are people who will not *completely* give > themselves to this *simple* program, usually men and women who are > constitutionally incapable of being honest with themselves. > > Some of have tried to hold on to our old ideas and the result was > nill until we *let go absolutely* > > Here are the steps we took, which are *suggested* as a program of > recovery:. > >That one always baffled me. So which is it? Take what you need & leave >the rest or take it all or die? Let go absolutely or it's all >suggestive? > >Apple > > > > this is something i had wrritten about this: > > > > " Often steppers will claim the steps are only " suggestions " as > > way of defusing rational criticism of their content. > > proposes this idea here: > > > > " Who first suggested the actual compromise words I do not > > know, but they are words well-known throughout the length and > > breadth of AA today: In Step Two we decided to describe God as > > a " Power greater than ourselves. " In Steps Three and Eleven we > > inserted the words " God as we understood him. " From Step > > Seven we deleted the expression " on our knees. " And, as a > > lead-in sentence to all the steps we wrote the words: " Here are > > the steps we took which are suggested as a Program of > > Recovery. " AA's Twelve Steps were to be suggestions only. > > > > Such were the final concessions to those of little or no faith; this > > was the great contribution of our atheists and agnostics. They > > had widened our gateway so that all who suffer might pass > > through, regardless of their belief or lack of belief. " > > > > -- Bill , from " The Three Legacies of Alcoholics > > Anonymous: Service " > > in Alcoholics Anonymous Comes of Age, page 167 > > > > > > " Suggestions " ? contradicts himself in the very same > > book when he says (suggests?) the opposite: > > > > " unless each AA member follows to the best of his ability our > > suggested Twelve Steps of recovery, he almost certainly signs > > his own death warrant . . . We must obey certain principles or we > > die. " > > > > , W.] (1957). Alcoholics Anonymous Comes of Age, New > > York: > > Alcoholics Anonymous World Services, Inc., page 119 > > > > > > and in the Alcoholics Anonymous Big Book, " We Agnostics " > > " To one who feels he is an atheist or agnostic such an > > experience seems impossible, but to continue as he is means > > disaster, especially if he is an alcoholic of the hopeless variety. > > To be doomed to an alcoholic death or to live on a spiritual basis > > are not always easy alternatives to face. " > > > > > > These same principles he claims are mearly " suggested " to > > newcommers must be obeyed or " we die " Not much of a choice > > there in these so called " suggestions " . nor is it much of a > > " concessions to those of little or no faith " . This is clearly double > > think. Double think is a concept termed by Orwell. It is > > language and thought which is designed for miscommunication > > and distortion. Orwell wrote the following, " Doublethink means > > the power of holding two contradictory beliefs in ones mind > > simultaneously, and accepting both of them. " > > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 17, 2001 Report Share Posted January 17, 2001 Hey apple, Alot of the meetings I went to started out like " thorougly " have we seen a person fail who " rarely " followed our path. And I sat in the last row most of the time and would often hear that back row people would most likely fail. Still here and happy, 12-step free. mb > >Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups >To: 12-step-freeegroups >Subject: Re: Double Bookkeeping >Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 11:13:57 -0000 > >I would add the text of " How it Works " to this as well Dave. >http://www.addictions.org/aa/works.htm > >Notice the use of the words... " *rarely* have we seen a person fail who >has *thoroughly* followed our path " > > Those who do not recover are people who will not *completely* give > themselves to this *simple* program, usually men and women who are > constitutionally incapable of being honest with themselves. > > Some of have tried to hold on to our old ideas and the result was > nill until we *let go absolutely* > > Here are the steps we took, which are *suggested* as a program of > recovery:. > >That one always baffled me. So which is it? Take what you need & leave >the rest or take it all or die? Let go absolutely or it's all >suggestive? > >Apple > > > > this is something i had wrritten about this: > > > > " Often steppers will claim the steps are only " suggestions " as > > way of defusing rational criticism of their content. > > proposes this idea here: > > > > " Who first suggested the actual compromise words I do not > > know, but they are words well-known throughout the length and > > breadth of AA today: In Step Two we decided to describe God as > > a " Power greater than ourselves. " In Steps Three and Eleven we > > inserted the words " God as we understood him. " From Step > > Seven we deleted the expression " on our knees. " And, as a > > lead-in sentence to all the steps we wrote the words: " Here are > > the steps we took which are suggested as a Program of > > Recovery. " AA's Twelve Steps were to be suggestions only. > > > > Such were the final concessions to those of little or no faith; this > > was the great contribution of our atheists and agnostics. They > > had widened our gateway so that all who suffer might pass > > through, regardless of their belief or lack of belief. " > > > > -- Bill , from " The Three Legacies of Alcoholics > > Anonymous: Service " > > in Alcoholics Anonymous Comes of Age, page 167 > > > > > > " Suggestions " ? contradicts himself in the very same > > book when he says (suggests?) the opposite: > > > > " unless each AA member follows to the best of his ability our > > suggested Twelve Steps of recovery, he almost certainly signs > > his own death warrant . . . We must obey certain principles or we > > die. " > > > > , W.] (1957). Alcoholics Anonymous Comes of Age, New > > York: > > Alcoholics Anonymous World Services, Inc., page 119 > > > > > > and in the Alcoholics Anonymous Big Book, " We Agnostics " > > " To one who feels he is an atheist or agnostic such an > > experience seems impossible, but to continue as he is means > > disaster, especially if he is an alcoholic of the hopeless variety. > > To be doomed to an alcoholic death or to live on a spiritual basis > > are not always easy alternatives to face. " > > > > > > These same principles he claims are mearly " suggested " to > > newcommers must be obeyed or " we die " Not much of a choice > > there in these so called " suggestions " . nor is it much of a > > " concessions to those of little or no faith " . This is clearly double > > think. Double think is a concept termed by Orwell. It is > > language and thought which is designed for miscommunication > > and distortion. Orwell wrote the following, " Doublethink means > > the power of holding two contradictory beliefs in ones mind > > simultaneously, and accepting both of them. " > > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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