RE: Helicopter use [was RE: Corpus Christi newspaper reports on ...

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 18-Feb-06 14:58:02 Central Standard Time,

bbledsoe@... writes:

Flying in a medical helicopter is about 6-7 times more dangerous than ground

EMS. These are undisputed figures. If people in EMS keep making decisions

based upon anecdote and how they feel, we will never get anywhere.

Just out of curiosity, do you have any breakout of the military (non combat)

air ambulance losses?

S. Krin, DO FAAFP

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 18-Feb-06 14:58:02 Central Standard Time,

bbledsoe@... writes:

Flying in a medical helicopter is about 6-7 times more dangerous than ground

EMS. These are undisputed figures. If people in EMS keep making decisions

based upon anecdote and how they feel, we will never get anywhere.

Just out of curiosity, do you have any breakout of the military (non combat)

air ambulance losses?

S. Krin, DO FAAFP

[Guest guest]

The report is basically factual. The biggest problem with EMS helicopters

is most of them are flown single pilot and the aircraft don't have coupled

flight directors. That means most EMS pilots don't have a back up if they

become disoriented. Any pilot that tells you he's never been disoriented in

the

clouds is either lying or has never been in an instrument situation. Having a

second pilot and/or a flight director is not a panacea, but the last

accident involving a 2 pilot EMS crew that I recall happened in 2000. It was a

positioning flight and may not have been recorded as EMS related.

Secondary to that, qualified weather observers on scene are zilch. Just

because the weather at your location is flyable does not mean that it is okay

five miles down the road. Another problem that is related is LZ preparation.

Several years ago we had an incident where one of our birds hit an

unmarked/unlighted wire with the tail rotor. Fortunately, a safe landing was

made, but

the helicopter was out of service until the tail rotor could be replaced.

Many times, the ground crew has little training or true understanding of what

constitutes a good LZ. The VFD that I volunteered with wanted to take a

victim that needed to be flown (multiple broken bones and blunt chess trauma)

to

a pre-surveyed LZ. The local sheriff's department was adamant that they set

up the LZ. The medics ignored the law enforcement guys and went to our LZ.

Where the cops wanted to put the LZ was a highway intersection surrounded by

100' tall power lines. That's a long way to hover straight up, in the dark,

with an under powered machine.

Another way to lessen EMS helicopter accidents is to prohibit service

shopping. The only allowable reason to go to a second service after being

declined

by a first would be if the first service was mechanically out of service.

If the company refuses for weather, that should be it.

Lastly, there needs to be an emphasis on go/no go decision making. The

pressure to go is tremendous. Our marketing department spent several hours

trying to mollify a family that was incensed because we wouldn't fly in weather

that was below our minimums. There's also the " hero " aspect that needs to be

overcome. Helicopter pilots, especially ex-military pilots, are very mission

oriented. They want to get the job done come hell or high water (or snow,

clouds, fog, dark of night - what have you). Putting the reins on that

attitude is difficult, but can be done.

Helicopters have a place and use. Using one has dangers but those dangers

can be mitigated with proper planning, equipping, training, and the ability to

say no.

Kirk

EMT-B

[Guest guest]

The report is basically factual. The biggest problem with EMS helicopters

is most of them are flown single pilot and the aircraft don't have coupled

flight directors. That means most EMS pilots don't have a back up if they

become disoriented. Any pilot that tells you he's never been disoriented in

the

clouds is either lying or has never been in an instrument situation. Having a

second pilot and/or a flight director is not a panacea, but the last

accident involving a 2 pilot EMS crew that I recall happened in 2000. It was a

positioning flight and may not have been recorded as EMS related.

Secondary to that, qualified weather observers on scene are zilch. Just

because the weather at your location is flyable does not mean that it is okay

five miles down the road. Another problem that is related is LZ preparation.

Several years ago we had an incident where one of our birds hit an

unmarked/unlighted wire with the tail rotor. Fortunately, a safe landing was

made, but

the helicopter was out of service until the tail rotor could be replaced.

Many times, the ground crew has little training or true understanding of what

constitutes a good LZ. The VFD that I volunteered with wanted to take a

victim that needed to be flown (multiple broken bones and blunt chess trauma)

to

a pre-surveyed LZ. The local sheriff's department was adamant that they set

up the LZ. The medics ignored the law enforcement guys and went to our LZ.

Where the cops wanted to put the LZ was a highway intersection surrounded by

100' tall power lines. That's a long way to hover straight up, in the dark,

with an under powered machine.

Another way to lessen EMS helicopter accidents is to prohibit service

shopping. The only allowable reason to go to a second service after being

declined

by a first would be if the first service was mechanically out of service.

If the company refuses for weather, that should be it.

Lastly, there needs to be an emphasis on go/no go decision making. The

pressure to go is tremendous. Our marketing department spent several hours

trying to mollify a family that was incensed because we wouldn't fly in weather

that was below our minimums. There's also the " hero " aspect that needs to be

overcome. Helicopter pilots, especially ex-military pilots, are very mission

oriented. They want to get the job done come hell or high water (or snow,

clouds, fog, dark of night - what have you). Putting the reins on that

attitude is difficult, but can be done.

Helicopters have a place and use. Using one has dangers but those dangers

can be mitigated with proper planning, equipping, training, and the ability to

say no.

Kirk

EMT-B

[Guest guest]

The report is basically factual. The biggest problem with EMS helicopters

is most of them are flown single pilot and the aircraft don't have coupled

flight directors. That means most EMS pilots don't have a back up if they

become disoriented. Any pilot that tells you he's never been disoriented in

the

clouds is either lying or has never been in an instrument situation. Having a

second pilot and/or a flight director is not a panacea, but the last

accident involving a 2 pilot EMS crew that I recall happened in 2000. It was a

positioning flight and may not have been recorded as EMS related.

Secondary to that, qualified weather observers on scene are zilch. Just

because the weather at your location is flyable does not mean that it is okay

five miles down the road. Another problem that is related is LZ preparation.

Several years ago we had an incident where one of our birds hit an

unmarked/unlighted wire with the tail rotor. Fortunately, a safe landing was

made, but

the helicopter was out of service until the tail rotor could be replaced.

Many times, the ground crew has little training or true understanding of what

constitutes a good LZ. The VFD that I volunteered with wanted to take a

victim that needed to be flown (multiple broken bones and blunt chess trauma)

to

a pre-surveyed LZ. The local sheriff's department was adamant that they set

up the LZ. The medics ignored the law enforcement guys and went to our LZ.

Where the cops wanted to put the LZ was a highway intersection surrounded by

100' tall power lines. That's a long way to hover straight up, in the dark,

with an under powered machine.

Another way to lessen EMS helicopter accidents is to prohibit service

shopping. The only allowable reason to go to a second service after being

declined

by a first would be if the first service was mechanically out of service.

If the company refuses for weather, that should be it.

Lastly, there needs to be an emphasis on go/no go decision making. The

pressure to go is tremendous. Our marketing department spent several hours

trying to mollify a family that was incensed because we wouldn't fly in weather

that was below our minimums. There's also the " hero " aspect that needs to be

overcome. Helicopter pilots, especially ex-military pilots, are very mission

oriented. They want to get the job done come hell or high water (or snow,

clouds, fog, dark of night - what have you). Putting the reins on that

attitude is difficult, but can be done.

Helicopters have a place and use. Using one has dangers but those dangers

can be mitigated with proper planning, equipping, training, and the ability to

say no.

Kirk

EMT-B

[Guest guest]

Also a good point. I've flown a patient that in the retrospect didn't need

to be flown and I've been chewed out for NOT flying a patient. He'd been

involved in a car vs backhoe and did not present any overt signs of trauma

until

after we had finished the extraction. At that point, I could be at the

hospital before the helo could get there.

The patient that didn't need to be flown was a teenage girl that was totally

non-responsive when I got on scene. We were BLS only that night and I

called for the helicopter as much for the paramedic support as the transport.

The

feedback from the hospital was she was fine. Examined and released. Turns

out she was totally drunk.

Sometimes you just can't win.

Kirk

EMT-B

Good points, all of them, however, one other way to lessen accidents is for

the flight services to educate the ground services on when the flight is

necessary and appropriate. The ground services need to stop flying patients

that don't require flight etc. The responsibility lies as much with the

ground services as with the flight services. We need to stop flying patients

'just because', and for the bragging rights. We need to listen more to

science and less to anecdotal evidence.

Science based and research backed medicine.

Mike

[Guest guest]

Military is the same as general aviation;

Fatal Crashes per Million Flight Hours (2001):

Airlines 1

Commuter 6

Ground Ambulance 12

Military (non-combat) 12

All Helicopters 12

Medical Helicopters 19

Pretty amazing when you figure a lot of the military pilots are less than 25

years of age (Last FA-18 Hornet pilot I met was 24 years old)

_____

From: [mailto: ] On

Behalf Of krin135@...

Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2006 3:25 PM

To:

Subject: Re: Helicopter use [was RE: Corpus Christi newspaper

reports on ...

In a message dated 18-Feb-06 14:58:02 Central Standard Time,

bbledsoe@... writes:

Flying in a medical helicopter is about 6-7 times more dangerous than

ground

EMS. These are undisputed figures. If people in EMS keep making decisions

based upon anecdote and how they feel, we will never get anywhere.

Just out of curiosity, do you have any breakout of the military (non

combat)

air ambulance losses?

S. Krin, DO FAAFP

[Guest guest]

Try this Website....USA Today did a study in 2005. I am not putting all of

my faith in the story, but it would appear to be credible.

http://www.medgadget.com/archives/2005/07/usa_today_inves.html

Re: Helicopter use [was RE: Corpus Christi newspaper

reports on ...

>

> In a message dated 18-Feb-06 14:58:02 Central Standard Time,

> bbledsoe@... writes:

>

> Flying in a medical helicopter is about 6-7 times more dangerous than

> ground

> EMS. These are undisputed figures. If people in EMS keep making

> decisions

> based upon anecdote and how they feel, we will never get anywhere.

>

>

>

> Just out of curiosity, do you have any breakout of the military (non

> combat)

> air ambulance losses?

>

[Guest guest]

Tater Salad wrote, " Good points, all of them, however, one other way to

lessen accidents is for

the flight services to educate the ground services on when the flight is

necessary and appropriate. "

But, that is akin to letting Starbucks inform people when they should drink

coffee.

_____

From: [mailto: ] On

Behalf Of hatfield

Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2006 9:29 PM

To:

Subject: RE: Helicopter use [was RE: Corpus Christi newspaper

reports on ...

Good points, all of them, however, one other way to lessen accidents is for

the flight services to educate the ground services on when the flight is

necessary and appropriate. The ground services need to stop flying patients

that don't require flight etc. The responsibility lies as much with the

ground services as with the flight services. We need to stop flying patients

'just because', and for the bragging rights. We need to listen more to

science and less to anecdotal evidence.

Science based and research backed medicine.

Mike

Hatfield FF/EMT-P

Re: Helicopter use [was RE: Corpus Christi newspaper

reports on ...

The report is basically factual. The biggest problem with EMS helicopters

is most of them are flown single pilot and the aircraft don't have coupled

flight directors. That means most EMS pilots don't have a back up if they

become disoriented. Any pilot that tells you he's never been disoriented

in the

clouds is either lying or has never been in an instrument situation.

Having a

second pilot and/or a flight director is not a panacea, but the last

accident involving a 2 pilot EMS crew that I recall happened in 2000. It

was a

positioning flight and may not have been recorded as EMS related.

Secondary to that, qualified weather observers on scene are zilch. Just

because the weather at your location is flyable does not mean that it is

okay

five miles down the road. Another problem that is related is LZ

preparation.

Several years ago we had an incident where one of our birds hit an

unmarked/unlighted wire with the tail rotor. Fortunately, a safe landing

was made, but

the helicopter was out of service until the tail rotor could be replaced.

Many times, the ground crew has little training or true understanding of

what

constitutes a good LZ. The VFD that I volunteered with wanted to take a

victim that needed to be flown (multiple broken bones and blunt chess

trauma) to

a pre-surveyed LZ. The local sheriff's department was adamant that they

set

up the LZ. The medics ignored the law enforcement guys and went to our LZ.

Where the cops wanted to put the LZ was a highway intersection surrounded

by

100' tall power lines. That's a long way to hover straight up, in the

dark,

with an under powered machine.

Another way to lessen EMS helicopter accidents is to prohibit service

shopping. The only allowable reason to go to a second service after being

declined

by a first would be if the first service was mechanically out of service.

If the company refuses for weather, that should be it.

Lastly, there needs to be an emphasis on go/no go decision making. The

pressure to go is tremendous. Our marketing department spent several hours

trying to mollify a family that was incensed because we wouldn't fly in

weather

that was below our minimums. There's also the " hero " aspect that needs to

be

overcome. Helicopter pilots, especially ex-military pilots, are very

mission

oriented. They want to get the job done come hell or high water (or snow,

clouds, fog, dark of night - what have you). Putting the reins on that

attitude is difficult, but can be done.

Helicopters have a place and use. Using one has dangers but those dangers

can be mitigated with proper planning, equipping, training, and the ability

to

say no.

Kirk

EMT-B

[Guest guest]

Tater Salad wrote, " Good points, all of them, however, one other way to

lessen accidents is for

the flight services to educate the ground services on when the flight is

necessary and appropriate. "

But, that is akin to letting Starbucks inform people when they should drink

coffee.

_____

From: [mailto: ] On

Behalf Of hatfield

Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2006 9:29 PM

To:

Subject: RE: Helicopter use [was RE: Corpus Christi newspaper

reports on ...

Good points, all of them, however, one other way to lessen accidents is for

the flight services to educate the ground services on when the flight is

necessary and appropriate. The ground services need to stop flying patients

that don't require flight etc. The responsibility lies as much with the

ground services as with the flight services. We need to stop flying patients

'just because', and for the bragging rights. We need to listen more to

science and less to anecdotal evidence.

Science based and research backed medicine.

Mike

Hatfield FF/EMT-P

Re: Helicopter use [was RE: Corpus Christi newspaper

reports on ...

The report is basically factual. The biggest problem with EMS helicopters

is most of them are flown single pilot and the aircraft don't have coupled

flight directors. That means most EMS pilots don't have a back up if they

become disoriented. Any pilot that tells you he's never been disoriented

in the

clouds is either lying or has never been in an instrument situation.

Having a

second pilot and/or a flight director is not a panacea, but the last

accident involving a 2 pilot EMS crew that I recall happened in 2000. It

was a

positioning flight and may not have been recorded as EMS related.

Secondary to that, qualified weather observers on scene are zilch. Just

because the weather at your location is flyable does not mean that it is

okay

five miles down the road. Another problem that is related is LZ

preparation.

Several years ago we had an incident where one of our birds hit an

unmarked/unlighted wire with the tail rotor. Fortunately, a safe landing

was made, but

the helicopter was out of service until the tail rotor could be replaced.

Many times, the ground crew has little training or true understanding of

what

constitutes a good LZ. The VFD that I volunteered with wanted to take a

victim that needed to be flown (multiple broken bones and blunt chess

trauma) to

a pre-surveyed LZ. The local sheriff's department was adamant that they

set

up the LZ. The medics ignored the law enforcement guys and went to our LZ.

Where the cops wanted to put the LZ was a highway intersection surrounded

by

100' tall power lines. That's a long way to hover straight up, in the

dark,

with an under powered machine.

Another way to lessen EMS helicopter accidents is to prohibit service

shopping. The only allowable reason to go to a second service after being

declined

by a first would be if the first service was mechanically out of service.

If the company refuses for weather, that should be it.

Lastly, there needs to be an emphasis on go/no go decision making. The

pressure to go is tremendous. Our marketing department spent several hours

trying to mollify a family that was incensed because we wouldn't fly in

weather

that was below our minimums. There's also the " hero " aspect that needs to

be

overcome. Helicopter pilots, especially ex-military pilots, are very

mission

oriented. They want to get the job done come hell or high water (or snow,

clouds, fog, dark of night - what have you). Putting the reins on that

attitude is difficult, but can be done.

Helicopters have a place and use. Using one has dangers but those dangers

can be mitigated with proper planning, equipping, training, and the ability

to

say no.

Kirk

EMT-B

[Guest guest]

Tater Salad wrote, " Good points, all of them, however, one other way to

lessen accidents is for

the flight services to educate the ground services on when the flight is

necessary and appropriate. "

But, that is akin to letting Starbucks inform people when they should drink

coffee.

_____

From: [mailto: ] On

Behalf Of hatfield

Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2006 9:29 PM

To:

Subject: RE: Helicopter use [was RE: Corpus Christi newspaper

reports on ...

Good points, all of them, however, one other way to lessen accidents is for

the flight services to educate the ground services on when the flight is

necessary and appropriate. The ground services need to stop flying patients

that don't require flight etc. The responsibility lies as much with the

ground services as with the flight services. We need to stop flying patients

'just because', and for the bragging rights. We need to listen more to

science and less to anecdotal evidence.

Science based and research backed medicine.

Mike

Hatfield FF/EMT-P

Re: Helicopter use [was RE: Corpus Christi newspaper

reports on ...

The report is basically factual. The biggest problem with EMS helicopters

is most of them are flown single pilot and the aircraft don't have coupled

flight directors. That means most EMS pilots don't have a back up if they

become disoriented. Any pilot that tells you he's never been disoriented

in the

clouds is either lying or has never been in an instrument situation.

Having a

second pilot and/or a flight director is not a panacea, but the last

accident involving a 2 pilot EMS crew that I recall happened in 2000. It

was a

positioning flight and may not have been recorded as EMS related.

Secondary to that, qualified weather observers on scene are zilch. Just

because the weather at your location is flyable does not mean that it is

okay

five miles down the road. Another problem that is related is LZ

preparation.

Several years ago we had an incident where one of our birds hit an

unmarked/unlighted wire with the tail rotor. Fortunately, a safe landing

was made, but

the helicopter was out of service until the tail rotor could be replaced.

Many times, the ground crew has little training or true understanding of

what

constitutes a good LZ. The VFD that I volunteered with wanted to take a

victim that needed to be flown (multiple broken bones and blunt chess

trauma) to

a pre-surveyed LZ. The local sheriff's department was adamant that they

set

up the LZ. The medics ignored the law enforcement guys and went to our LZ.

Where the cops wanted to put the LZ was a highway intersection surrounded

by

100' tall power lines. That's a long way to hover straight up, in the

dark,

with an under powered machine.

Another way to lessen EMS helicopter accidents is to prohibit service

shopping. The only allowable reason to go to a second service after being

declined

by a first would be if the first service was mechanically out of service.

If the company refuses for weather, that should be it.

Lastly, there needs to be an emphasis on go/no go decision making. The

pressure to go is tremendous. Our marketing department spent several hours

trying to mollify a family that was incensed because we wouldn't fly in

weather

that was below our minimums. There's also the " hero " aspect that needs to

be

overcome. Helicopter pilots, especially ex-military pilots, are very

mission

oriented. They want to get the job done come hell or high water (or snow,

clouds, fog, dark of night - what have you). Putting the reins on that

attitude is difficult, but can be done.

Helicopters have a place and use. Using one has dangers but those dangers

can be mitigated with proper planning, equipping, training, and the ability

to

say no.

Kirk

EMT-B

[Guest guest]

What a well-informed and logical narrative. In Canada, they primarily fly

Sikorsky 76s with dual pilots and IFR. I most of Europe, medical helicopters

doe not make night flights and have stricter weather minimums.

If you extrapolate what the rest of the world is doing, it is starting to

show that the NTSB is starting to realize and push for a system similar to

the rest of the world (Part 135 at all times, NVG, Terrain Collision

Avoidance, IFR).

BEB

_____

From: [mailto: ] On

Behalf Of N5XNU@...

Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2006 7:06 PM

To:

Subject: Re: Helicopter use [was RE: Corpus Christi newspaper

reports on ...

The report is basically factual. The biggest problem with EMS helicopters

is most of them are flown single pilot and the aircraft don't have coupled

flight directors. That means most EMS pilots don't have a back up if they

become disoriented. Any pilot that tells you he's never been disoriented

in the

clouds is either lying or has never been in an instrument situation.

Having a

second pilot and/or a flight director is not a panacea, but the last

accident involving a 2 pilot EMS crew that I recall happened in 2000. It

was a

positioning flight and may not have been recorded as EMS related.

Secondary to that, qualified weather observers on scene are zilch. Just

because the weather at your location is flyable does not mean that it is

okay

five miles down the road. Another problem that is related is LZ

preparation.

Several years ago we had an incident where one of our birds hit an

unmarked/unlighted wire with the tail rotor. Fortunately, a safe landing

was made, but

the helicopter was out of service until the tail rotor could be replaced.

Many times, the ground crew has little training or true understanding of

what

constitutes a good LZ. The VFD that I volunteered with wanted to take a

victim that needed to be flown (multiple broken bones and blunt chess

trauma) to

a pre-surveyed LZ. The local sheriff's department was adamant that they

set

up the LZ. The medics ignored the law enforcement guys and went to our LZ.

Where the cops wanted to put the LZ was a highway intersection surrounded

by

100' tall power lines. That's a long way to hover straight up, in the

dark,

with an under powered machine.

Another way to lessen EMS helicopter accidents is to prohibit service

shopping. The only allowable reason to go to a second service after being

declined

by a first would be if the first service was mechanically out of service.

If the company refuses for weather, that should be it.

Lastly, there needs to be an emphasis on go/no go decision making. The

pressure to go is tremendous. Our marketing department spent several hours

trying to mollify a family that was incensed because we wouldn't fly in

weather

that was below our minimums. There's also the " hero " aspect that needs to

be

overcome. Helicopter pilots, especially ex-military pilots, are very

mission

oriented. They want to get the job done come hell or high water (or snow,

clouds, fog, dark of night - what have you). Putting the reins on that

attitude is difficult, but can be done.

Helicopters have a place and use. Using one has dangers but those dangers

can be mitigated with proper planning, equipping, training, and the ability

to

say no.

Kirk

EMT-B

[Guest guest]

What a well-informed and logical narrative. In Canada, they primarily fly

Sikorsky 76s with dual pilots and IFR. I most of Europe, medical helicopters

doe not make night flights and have stricter weather minimums.

If you extrapolate what the rest of the world is doing, it is starting to

show that the NTSB is starting to realize and push for a system similar to

the rest of the world (Part 135 at all times, NVG, Terrain Collision

Avoidance, IFR).

BEB

_____

From: [mailto: ] On

Behalf Of N5XNU@...

Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2006 7:06 PM

To:

Subject: Re: Helicopter use [was RE: Corpus Christi newspaper

reports on ...

The report is basically factual. The biggest problem with EMS helicopters

is most of them are flown single pilot and the aircraft don't have coupled

flight directors. That means most EMS pilots don't have a back up if they

become disoriented. Any pilot that tells you he's never been disoriented

in the

clouds is either lying or has never been in an instrument situation.

Having a

second pilot and/or a flight director is not a panacea, but the last

accident involving a 2 pilot EMS crew that I recall happened in 2000. It

was a

positioning flight and may not have been recorded as EMS related.

Secondary to that, qualified weather observers on scene are zilch. Just

because the weather at your location is flyable does not mean that it is

okay

five miles down the road. Another problem that is related is LZ

preparation.

Several years ago we had an incident where one of our birds hit an

unmarked/unlighted wire with the tail rotor. Fortunately, a safe landing

was made, but

the helicopter was out of service until the tail rotor could be replaced.

Many times, the ground crew has little training or true understanding of

what

constitutes a good LZ. The VFD that I volunteered with wanted to take a

victim that needed to be flown (multiple broken bones and blunt chess

trauma) to

a pre-surveyed LZ. The local sheriff's department was adamant that they

set

up the LZ. The medics ignored the law enforcement guys and went to our LZ.

Where the cops wanted to put the LZ was a highway intersection surrounded

by

100' tall power lines. That's a long way to hover straight up, in the

dark,

with an under powered machine.

Another way to lessen EMS helicopter accidents is to prohibit service

shopping. The only allowable reason to go to a second service after being

declined

by a first would be if the first service was mechanically out of service.

If the company refuses for weather, that should be it.

Lastly, there needs to be an emphasis on go/no go decision making. The

pressure to go is tremendous. Our marketing department spent several hours

trying to mollify a family that was incensed because we wouldn't fly in

weather

that was below our minimums. There's also the " hero " aspect that needs to

be

overcome. Helicopter pilots, especially ex-military pilots, are very

mission

oriented. They want to get the job done come hell or high water (or snow,

clouds, fog, dark of night - what have you). Putting the reins on that

attitude is difficult, but can be done.

Helicopters have a place and use. Using one has dangers but those dangers

can be mitigated with proper planning, equipping, training, and the ability

to

say no.

Kirk

EMT-B

[Guest guest]

What a well-informed and logical narrative. In Canada, they primarily fly

Sikorsky 76s with dual pilots and IFR. I most of Europe, medical helicopters

doe not make night flights and have stricter weather minimums.

If you extrapolate what the rest of the world is doing, it is starting to

show that the NTSB is starting to realize and push for a system similar to

the rest of the world (Part 135 at all times, NVG, Terrain Collision

Avoidance, IFR).

BEB

_____

From: [mailto: ] On

Behalf Of N5XNU@...

Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2006 7:06 PM

To:

Subject: Re: Helicopter use [was RE: Corpus Christi newspaper

reports on ...

The report is basically factual. The biggest problem with EMS helicopters

is most of them are flown single pilot and the aircraft don't have coupled

flight directors. That means most EMS pilots don't have a back up if they

become disoriented. Any pilot that tells you he's never been disoriented

in the

clouds is either lying or has never been in an instrument situation.

Having a

second pilot and/or a flight director is not a panacea, but the last

accident involving a 2 pilot EMS crew that I recall happened in 2000. It

was a

positioning flight and may not have been recorded as EMS related.

Secondary to that, qualified weather observers on scene are zilch. Just

because the weather at your location is flyable does not mean that it is

okay

five miles down the road. Another problem that is related is LZ

preparation.

Several years ago we had an incident where one of our birds hit an

unmarked/unlighted wire with the tail rotor. Fortunately, a safe landing

was made, but

the helicopter was out of service until the tail rotor could be replaced.

Many times, the ground crew has little training or true understanding of

what

constitutes a good LZ. The VFD that I volunteered with wanted to take a

victim that needed to be flown (multiple broken bones and blunt chess

trauma) to

a pre-surveyed LZ. The local sheriff's department was adamant that they

set

up the LZ. The medics ignored the law enforcement guys and went to our LZ.

Where the cops wanted to put the LZ was a highway intersection surrounded

by

100' tall power lines. That's a long way to hover straight up, in the

dark,

with an under powered machine.

Another way to lessen EMS helicopter accidents is to prohibit service

shopping. The only allowable reason to go to a second service after being

declined

by a first would be if the first service was mechanically out of service.

If the company refuses for weather, that should be it.

Lastly, there needs to be an emphasis on go/no go decision making. The

pressure to go is tremendous. Our marketing department spent several hours

trying to mollify a family that was incensed because we wouldn't fly in

weather

that was below our minimums. There's also the " hero " aspect that needs to

be

overcome. Helicopter pilots, especially ex-military pilots, are very

mission

oriented. They want to get the job done come hell or high water (or snow,

clouds, fog, dark of night - what have you). Putting the reins on that

attitude is difficult, but can be done.

Helicopters have a place and use. Using one has dangers but those dangers

can be mitigated with proper planning, equipping, training, and the ability

to

say no.

Kirk

EMT-B

[Guest guest]

Good points, all of them, however, one other way to lessen accidents is for

the flight services to educate the ground services on when the flight is

necessary and appropriate. The ground services need to stop flying patients

that don't require flight etc. The responsibility lies as much with the

ground services as with the flight services. We need to stop flying patients

'just because', and for the bragging rights. We need to listen more to

science and less to anecdotal evidence.

Science based and research backed medicine.

Mike

Hatfield FF/EMT-P

Re: Helicopter use [was RE: Corpus Christi newspaper

reports on ...

The report is basically factual. The biggest problem with EMS helicopters

is most of them are flown single pilot and the aircraft don't have coupled

flight directors. That means most EMS pilots don't have a back up if they

become disoriented. Any pilot that tells you he's never been disoriented

in the

clouds is either lying or has never been in an instrument situation.

Having a

second pilot and/or a flight director is not a panacea, but the last

accident involving a 2 pilot EMS crew that I recall happened in 2000. It

was a

positioning flight and may not have been recorded as EMS related.

Secondary to that, qualified weather observers on scene are zilch. Just

because the weather at your location is flyable does not mean that it is

okay

five miles down the road. Another problem that is related is LZ

preparation.

Several years ago we had an incident where one of our birds hit an

unmarked/unlighted wire with the tail rotor. Fortunately, a safe landing

was made, but

the helicopter was out of service until the tail rotor could be replaced.

Many times, the ground crew has little training or true understanding of

what

constitutes a good LZ. The VFD that I volunteered with wanted to take a

victim that needed to be flown (multiple broken bones and blunt chess

trauma) to

a pre-surveyed LZ. The local sheriff's department was adamant that they

set

up the LZ. The medics ignored the law enforcement guys and went to our LZ.

Where the cops wanted to put the LZ was a highway intersection surrounded

by

100' tall power lines. That's a long way to hover straight up, in the

dark,

with an under powered machine.

Another way to lessen EMS helicopter accidents is to prohibit service

shopping. The only allowable reason to go to a second service after being

declined

by a first would be if the first service was mechanically out of service.

If the company refuses for weather, that should be it.

Lastly, there needs to be an emphasis on go/no go decision making. The

pressure to go is tremendous. Our marketing department spent several hours

trying to mollify a family that was incensed because we wouldn't fly in

weather

that was below our minimums. There's also the " hero " aspect that needs to

be

overcome. Helicopter pilots, especially ex-military pilots, are very

mission

oriented. They want to get the job done come hell or high water (or snow,

clouds, fog, dark of night - what have you). Putting the reins on that

attitude is difficult, but can be done.

Helicopters have a place and use. Using one has dangers but those dangers

can be mitigated with proper planning, equipping, training, and the ability

to

say no.

Kirk

EMT-B

[Guest guest]

Mr. Bledson wrote: But, that is akin to letting Starbucks inform people when

they should drink

coffee.

So true, and I got reamed once for it at the flight service I worked, the

patient did not require flight, so when we did the follow up, the ground

crew asked if I thought they could go by ground, I told them yes, and man o

manischewitz, you would have thought I told the them that we never wanted

another flight again!!!

Catch 22

Mike

Hatfield FF/EMT-P

Re: Helicopter use [was RE: Corpus Christi newspaper

reports on ...

The report is basically factual. The biggest problem with EMS helicopters

is most of them are flown single pilot and the aircraft don't have coupled

flight directors. That means most EMS pilots don't have a back up if they

become disoriented. Any pilot that tells you he's never been disoriented

in the

clouds is either lying or has never been in an instrument situation.

Having a

second pilot and/or a flight director is not a panacea, but the last

accident involving a 2 pilot EMS crew that I recall happened in 2000. It

was a

positioning flight and may not have been recorded as EMS related.

Secondary to that, qualified weather observers on scene are zilch. Just

because the weather at your location is flyable does not mean that it is

okay

five miles down the road. Another problem that is related is LZ

preparation.

Several years ago we had an incident where one of our birds hit an

unmarked/unlighted wire with the tail rotor. Fortunately, a safe landing

was made, but

the helicopter was out of service until the tail rotor could be replaced.

Many times, the ground crew has little training or true understanding of

what

constitutes a good LZ. The VFD that I volunteered with wanted to take a

victim that needed to be flown (multiple broken bones and blunt chess

trauma) to

a pre-surveyed LZ. The local sheriff's department was adamant that they

set

up the LZ. The medics ignored the law enforcement guys and went to our LZ.

Where the cops wanted to put the LZ was a highway intersection surrounded

by

100' tall power lines. That's a long way to hover straight up, in the

dark,

with an under powered machine.

Another way to lessen EMS helicopter accidents is to prohibit service

shopping. The only allowable reason to go to a second service after being

declined

by a first would be if the first service was mechanically out of service.

If the company refuses for weather, that should be it.

Lastly, there needs to be an emphasis on go/no go decision making. The

pressure to go is tremendous. Our marketing department spent several hours

trying to mollify a family that was incensed because we wouldn't fly in

weather

that was below our minimums. There's also the " hero " aspect that needs to

be

overcome. Helicopter pilots, especially ex-military pilots, are very

mission

oriented. They want to get the job done come hell or high water (or snow,

clouds, fog, dark of night - what have you). Putting the reins on that

attitude is difficult, but can be done.

Helicopters have a place and use. Using one has dangers but those dangers

can be mitigated with proper planning, equipping, training, and the ability

to

say no.

Kirk

EMT-B