Sexually transmitted Lyme

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 4/26/01 11:43:57 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

golfdawg@... writes:

> OK, I have read all this about Lyme being sexually transmitted....SO.......

>

> Is there even one PROVEN DOCUMENTED case of it being sexually

> transmitted???

> If so, show me. Everyone can hypothesize the hell out of this but show me

> something with meat on the bones.

>

>

How about the spouses of almost every one of our patients finds out they are

positive as well ? That's good enough for me. (I work for a LLMD). Of

course the possibility exists that they are in the same environment and that

can contribute to the chances of contracting the disease. It just seems too

coincidental to me. Besides the fact, spirochetes ARE sexually transmitted.

Why should the lyme spirochete be any different from the syphillis spirochete?

Just my 2 cents.

Blessings,

Lorraine

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 4/28/01 5:26:30 PM Central Daylight Time, cheers4u@...

writes:

<< How about the spouses of almost every one of our patients finds out they

are

positive as well ? That's good enough for me. (I work for a LLMD) >>

Are there any studies? I'm sorry, but you are still just offering anecdotal

evidence.

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 4/27/01 8:48:39 AM, jean@... writes:

<< People are getting angry over differing opinions and that's not good.

Exchanging ideas and thoughts is one thing but anger is not what's needed

here. >>

This is EXACTLY the point!!!! We have these msg. boards so we can all support

each other, love each other and RESPECT one another no matter what the

opinions are. The Dalai Lama says " Follow the three Rs: Respect for self,

Respect for others, Responsibility for all your actions. " This whole disease

is so we all can learn compassion; compassion for our fellow man. Don't sit

in judgment. No one person has to be right.

It is Sunday morning, a time for reflection. Plus I have had the most

horrendous headache for a week now.

sue in nj

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 4/28/2001 6:26:39 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

cheers4u@... writes:

>

> How about the spouses of almost every one of our patients finds out they

> are

> positive as well ? That's good enough for me. (I work for a LLMD). Of

> course the possibility exists that they are in the same environment and

> that

> can contribute to the chances of contracting the disease. It just seems

> too

> coincidental to me. Besides the fact, spirochetes ARE sexually

> transmitted.

> Why should the lyme spirochete be any different from the syphillis

> spirochete?

>

> Just my 2 cents.

>

> Blessings,

>

Dear Lorraine,

Of almost all the couples I know, only one has Lyme, not both, so our Lymie

contacts seem to be a different population sample. I think Rose & in

TX are an example of one of the few couples I've heard of where both have it,

but, as you say, that doesn't mean that they one gave it to the other.

And, not all Spirochetes are the same, just as not all viruses are the same.

Just because Treponema Pallidum (the Syphilis spriochete) gets transmitted

sexually, does NOT mean Bb also gets transmitted sexually.

I'll repeat:

Lyme gets transmitted by tick bites. To the best of my knowledge Syphilis

NEVER gets transmitted by tick bites. If all spirochetes act the same,

please explain this.

In other words, please do be careful, but on the other hand, please don't

assume illogical conclusions & try to present them as facts.

Thanks,

a

[Guest guest]

> Are there any studies? I'm sorry, but you are still just offering

anecdotal

> evidence.

There arent studies for alot of things that LLMDs do or think. How can

there be a study done anyhow? Testing sucks, so who's to say that the person

didnt have lyme to begin with? Ticks are everywhere, so who's to say that

they didnt get it from the environment?

[Guest guest]

It is my understanding that they have found DEAD DNA of Lyme in

Semen. It is my understanding that it is NOT true that this is at

all proof of sexual transmission of Lyme.

I would like to see the medical proof that contradicts this.

~Beverly

Reston, VA

> Everyone: Here is the information on that lyme study if you

have had 4 weeks or more of antibiotic therapy, already. Also, there

is a lot of other information on lyme and how it affects our brains,

both children and adults! Good hunting! KC in TX

> I am still looking for that article about lyme disease being

sexually transmitted under www.medscape - lyme- 14th annual

Scientific Conference & other Tick-borne Disorders. I know that it is

true because I read my doctor's copy of the presentations that were

given back in April. Probably not all of the presentations were put

on the internet, If anyone can get the actual website for this

conference, my LLMD said a copy of the presentations were on their

website or only $25.00 for a full copy. Just think what YOUR doctor

could do with the information AND they can get continuing medication

accreditation by reading the information and taking a test all in the

comfort of their own home!

[Guest guest]

The following is what I received from Dr. Nick from Igenex.

Re: [ ] Re: Sexually Transmitted Lyme

> Beverly,

> I had never heard that dead DNA of Bb was found in semen. If that were

> true, it means to me that a few live ones can get through as well. Unless

> sperm is the cure we have been looking for....only kidding. I really

don't

> know how they can prove this, how did they prove that syphilis is sexually

> transmitted?

> Marta

> ----- Original Message -----

> From: <beverly@...>

>

>

> > It is my understanding that they have found DEAD DNA of Lyme in

> > Semen. It is my understanding that it is NOT true that this is at

> > all proof of sexual transmission of Lyme.

> >

> > I would like to see the medical proof that contradicts this.

> >

> > ~Beverly

> > Reston, VA

>

[Guest guest]

Thanks for posting that Robynn ... appreciate it.

Jean

[Guest guest]

Beverly,

I had never heard that dead DNA of Bb was found in semen. If that were

true, it means to me that a few live ones can get through as well. Unless

sperm is the cure we have been looking for....only kidding. I really don't

know how they can prove this, how did they prove that syphilis is sexually

transmitted?

Marta

----- Original Message -----

From: <beverly@...>

> It is my understanding that they have found DEAD DNA of Lyme in

> Semen. It is my understanding that it is NOT true that this is at

> all proof of sexual transmission of Lyme.

>

> I would like to see the medical proof that contradicts this.

>

> ~Beverly

> Reston, VA

[Guest guest]

Marta,

I have only hear this by word of mouth. I would greatly appreciate

seeing a published paper on this.

The person who gave me this information, a nurse who has followed the

research extensively, has felt confident enough to start a new

relationship.

I have only just started following this. I did see the special on

syphillis by PBS. I will have to do more research on this subject

and ask my friend about further documentation.

Healing hugs to all,

~Beverly

> Beverly,

> I had never heard that dead DNA of Bb was found in semen. If

that were

> true, it means to me that a few live ones can get through as well.

Unless

> sperm is the cure we have been looking for....only kidding. I

really don't

> know how they can prove this, how did they prove that syphilis is

sexually

> transmitted?

> Marta

> ----- Original Message -----

> From: <beverly@b...>

>

>

> > It is my understanding that they have found DEAD DNA of Lyme in

> > Semen. It is my understanding that it is NOT true that this is at

> > all proof of sexual transmission of Lyme.

> >

> > I would like to see the medical proof that contradicts this.

> >

> > ~Beverly

> > Reston, VA

[Guest guest]

Yes! Thanks Robynn!

I sure would love to see the copy of that study. But I know that

Dr.Nick is an extremely knowledgable source.

I guess that means - we don't know yet.

~Beverly

> Thanks for posting that Robynn ... appreciate it.

>

> Jean

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Beverly,

I think we all want to see a published study on this, but until we do, it

will always be questionable. We just have to try to use our own common

sense and follow it.

Marta

----- Original Message -----

From: <beverly@...>

> Marta,

>

> I have only hear this by word of mouth. I would greatly appreciate

> seeing a published paper on this.

>

> The person who gave me this information, a nurse who has followed the

> research extensively, has felt confident enough to start a new

> relationship.

>

> I have only just started following this. I did see the special on

> syphillis by PBS. I will have to do more research on this subject

> and ask my friend about further documentation.

>

> Healing hugs to all,

>

> ~Beverly

[Guest guest]

I went back and re-read Nick 's note about the study by Bach.

I think we can trust him to be knowledgeable enough to be accurate

about this. I have asked him, via email, if he had access to the

study. But I think his comment is enough for now, He says - as I

bolded below- that all that was found was DNA, NOT spirochete

cells. DNA can not transfer Lyme. As Dr. says, IF semen was

found to contain SPIROCHETES, THEN one would need to study the

possibility of transference of Lyme.

But so far there is no study that shows that there are Spirochete in

the semen.

I know of no other study that has been done to refute this. Does

anyone else??

~Beverly

Reston, VA

> The following is what I received from Dr. Nick from Igenex.

>

>

> Re: [ ] Re: Sexually Transmitted Lyme

>

>

> > Beverly,

> > I had never heard that dead DNA of Bb was found in semen. If

that were

> > true, it means to me that a few live ones can get through as

well. Unless

> > sperm is the cure we have been looking for....only kidding. I

really

> don't

> > know how they can prove this, how did they prove that syphilis is

sexually

> > transmitted?

> > Marta

> > ----- Original Message -----

> > From: <beverly@b...>

> >

> >

> > > It is my understanding that they have found DEAD DNA of Lyme in

> > > Semen. It is my understanding that it is NOT true that this is

at

> > > all proof of sexual transmission of Lyme.

> > >

> > > I would like to see the medical proof that contradicts this.

> > >

> > > ~Beverly

> > > Reston, VA

> >

[Guest guest]

Can people with Lyme Donate blood or organs?

Sheryl

[ ] Re: Sexually Transmitted Lyme

> I went back and re-read Nick 's note about the study by Bach.

> I think we can trust him to be knowledgeable enough to be accurate

> about this. I have asked him, via email, if he had access to the

> study. But I think his comment is enough for now, He says - as I

> bolded below- that all that was found was DNA, NOT spirochete

> cells. DNA can not transfer Lyme. As Dr. says, IF semen was

> found to contain SPIROCHETES, THEN one would need to study the

> possibility of transference of Lyme.

>

> But so far there is no study that shows that there are Spirochete in

> the semen.

>

> I know of no other study that has been done to refute this. Does

> anyone else??

>

> ~Beverly

> Reston, VA

>

>

>

>

> > The following is what I received from Dr. Nick from Igenex.

> >

> >

> > Re: [ ] Re: Sexually Transmitted Lyme

> >

> >

> > > Beverly,

> > > I had never heard that dead DNA of Bb was found in semen. If

> that were

> > > true, it means to me that a few live ones can get through as

> well. Unless

> > > sperm is the cure we have been looking for....only kidding. I

> really

> > don't

> > > know how they can prove this, how did they prove that syphilis is

> sexually

> > > transmitted?

> > > Marta

> > > ----- Original Message -----

> > > From: <beverly@b...>

> > >

> > >

> > > > It is my understanding that they have found DEAD DNA of Lyme in

> > > > Semen. It is my understanding that it is NOT true that this is

> at

> > > > all proof of sexual transmission of Lyme.

> > > >

> > > > I would like to see the medical proof that contradicts this.

> > > >

> > > > ~Beverly

> > > > Reston, VA

> > >

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

> Can people with Lyme Donate blood or organs?

NO NO NO!!!! I donated blood for at least 15 yrs when I was unaware that I

had Lyme. I try not to think of all the people I might have made sick, I'd

cry if I did. Since Lyme Spirochetes invade muscle, Blood ( not all the

time ), Bone and nerves, the possibility of donating an infected organ is

great.

[Guest guest]

I was told by a Red Cross Bloodmobile person that I shouldn't donate ... so I

don't.

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 8/13/01 8:31:51 AM Central Daylight Time, edina@...

writes:

<< Just curious if any of you have thought about the repocussions of what

you are saying? Why the tide against the obvious and not more care in

protecting the ones not infected. If you can't base it on science yet because

no one is even looking then...conscience! >>

I still think this thread is much-ado about very little.

Many of you are paranoid that Lyme can be transmitted sexually. Then, by all

means, use condoms, or even better, abstain. But I tire of reading

" opinions " castigating others if they choose not to use protection when there

is no scientific evidence it can be sexually transmitted.

OK, there is DNA in semen. So what? Does one conclude that it is

transmitted sexually because of that? NO!

I, too, have a clear conscience about having sex without the fear and worries

of transmitting Lyme. I have enough things to worry about in my life without

worrying something that *no one* has proven can be passed sexually. And even

if it is possible, the odds are probably so miniscule as to be statistically

insignificant.

I had a healthcare professional tell me once that HIV is very difficult to

transmit sexually, unless you use risky behavior many, many times and even

then it is hard to do. The conservative right and the media would like you

to think it is, but it's not. Of course, HIV is a horrible thing to have but

the greatest majority of heterosexual Americans have nothing to worry about.

I won't say anything more about this thread but I would hate to have a couple

not have sex and damage even further a stressful life by changing or ruining

their sex life due to rumors and unfounded opinions. Like I said, we have

enough to worry about without adding to the known facts with this additional

line of thinking.

[Guest guest]

>

> But so far there is no study that shows that there are Spirochete in

> the semen.

>

> I know of no other study that has been done to refute this. Does

> anyone else??

>

> ~Beverly

> Reston, VA

>

Just curious if any of you have thought about the repocussions of what you are

saying? Why the tide against the obvious and not more care in protecting the

ones not infected. If you can't base it on science yet because no one is even

looking then...conscience!

I am not trying to be mean but think about the logic used. Gee, lets see, I

have got this horrible illness that is causing me great despair, pain, plethora

of symptoms, and years of antibiotic treatment, so I think I will go have

unprotected sex and maybe even a baby. This, along with gestational Lyme

existance, is the finest example of the ostrich mentality.

Why would you think that there is DNA present in semen without spirochetes?

Yes, perhaps this DNA was from dead bacteria cleared through our body filters,

but with all of the symptoms that are present in genito/urino system it seems

pretty suggestive that there would be active infection present. Besides, the

PCR is only testing for DNA so of course it would not show viable spirochetes

but that does not mean that they aren't there.

[Guest guest]

I've told my story before, but I will tell it again. My husband had a vasectomy

in 1972. I was infected with Lyme in 1990. We never used protection. Never!

I have chronic Lyme. He is totally healthy. He does not have Lyme. We know

several people with Lyme. They do not use protection. Their partners are

healthy. They do not have Lyme. I don't know if Lyme is sexually transmitted

or not, but in MY case, it is not. Obviously.

My contention is that when you see couples with Lyme, they were in the same

place at the same time and were both infected.

My husband and I choose not to use protection ... we're in our 50's and have a

very active sex life. If people are concerned about sexually transmitting Lyme

to a partner, then by all means, they should use protection.

And my conscience is clear.

Jean

[Guest guest]

K, Heres my story. I have Lyme, have had it since at least 83. Hubby has

never been sick and was only tested because alot of the LLMD's think it can

be sexually transmitted, its hard to prove either way scientifically. Hubbys

test came back pos, with even more bands than I showed yet he has NEVER had

even the first symptom. So it is possible for a spouse to have Lyme and

never have a symptom. Whos to say it was sexually transmitted? Who knows for

sure?? Now we err on the side of caution. It is know that the spirochette

can be found in blood, muscle, bone, nerves, breast milk, and vaginal

fluids, it can be passed to fetus. Makes a person wonder.........

[Guest guest]

He is totally healthy. He does not have Lyme. We know several people with

Lyme. They do not use protection. Their partners are healthy. They do not

have Lyme. I don't know if Lyme is sexually transmitted or not, but in MY

case, it is not. Obviously.

No, not obviously. I just made a post about this and forgot to leave this

paragraph in it. My hubby is perfectly healthy yet has Lyme. You can only

say 'obviously' if ALL the partners have been tested for Lyme, and not just

one test, as we all know that isnt enough.

[Guest guest]

Zentralbl Bakteriol Mikrobiol Hyg [A] 1986 Dec;263(1-2):40-4 Related

Articles, Books, LinkOut

The prevalence and significance of Borrelia burgdorferi in the urine of feral

reservoir hosts.

Bosler EM, Schulze TL.

Live Borrelia burgdorferi were isolated from the blood and/or urine of

white-footed mice (Peromyscus leucopus) collected on Shelter Island, New York,

in 1984 and 1985. Prevalence of spirochetes in urine was consistently higher

than in blood or both fluids simultaneously. Spirochetes remained viable for

18-24 hours in urine and were maintained in culture for one week. Mice removed

from the field were spirocheturic for at least 13 months. One spirocheturic

mouse developed spirochetemia one month after field removal indicating the

pathogen can return to the peripheral circulation. Twenty-one kidneys from 22

mice had spirochetes in the interstitial areas and bridging the tubules. A

positive correlation between Babesia microti infection and spirocheturia was

seen. Although the mechanism of entry into the urine is unknown, B. microti

infection may increase glomerular permeability. Babesia induced hematuria may

provide possible nutrients to maintain spirochetes. Urine may provide a method

for contact non-tick transmission of B. burgdorferi in natural rodent

populations particularly during periods of nesting and/or breeding.

PMID: 3577491 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Re: [ ] Re: Sexually Transmitted Lyme

I've told my story before, but I will tell it again. My husband had a

vasectomy in 1972. I was infected with Lyme in 1990. We never used protection.

Never! I have chronic Lyme. He is totally healthy. He does not have Lyme. We

know several people with Lyme. They do not use protection. Their partners are

healthy. They do not have Lyme. I don't know if Lyme is sexually transmitted

or not, but in MY case, it is not. Obviously.

My contention is that when you see couples with Lyme, they were in the same

place at the same time and were both infected.

My husband and I choose not to use protection ... we're in our 50's and have a

very active sex life. If people are concerned about sexually transmitting Lyme

to a partner, then by all means, they should use protection.

And my conscience is clear.

Jean

[Guest guest]

> Many of you are paranoid that Lyme can be transmitted sexually. Then, by

all

> means, use condoms, or even better, abstain. But I tire of reading

> " opinions " castigating others if they choose not to use protection when

there

> is no scientific evidence it can be sexually transmitted.

I am not Paranoid, how dare you write something to that effect. And

even worse, how dare you say that we should abstain from sex. I tire of

reading alot of posts also, but there is such a thing as a delete button.

You are correct, there is no scientific evidence that Lyme is Sexually

Transmitted. But as it has been said before, 'Absence of proof, is not proof

of absence'. I wonder if there was ever a scientific study to whether or

not Lyme can be passed to a fetus?? I bet not, bets its only what Drs have

found to be true.

[Guest guest]

Dear Gang,

I have attached my testimony as I believe I contracted Lyme sexually, and

that this should be made known. Please feel free to share this information

with your doctors or anyone you think may be helped by it. Sorry it's a bit

long, but I feel it is important, especially for those of you who are not

getting well on the anti-biotics.

Wishing you all health,

Rosemary.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

> This is an abstract presented by Dr. Bach at the International Scientific

> Conference on Lyme Disease, April, 2001.

> RECOVERY OF LYME SPIROCHETES BY PCR IN SEMEN SAMPLES OF PREVIOUSLY

DIAGNOSED

> LYME DISEASE PATIENTS

>

> Dr. Bach, Do.O.,P.C.

> OBJECTIVE

>

> Lyme disease, being a spirochete with pathology similar to syphilis, is

> often found difficult to treat due to the spirochete invading sanctuary

> sites and displaying pleomorphic characteristics such as a cyst (L-form).

> Because a significant portion of sexually active couples present to my

> office with Lyme disease, with only one partner having a history of tick

> exposure, the question of possible secondary (sexual)vector of

transmission

> for the spirochete warrents inquiry. Additionally, sexually active couples

> seem to have a marked propensity for antibiotic failure raising the

question

> of sexually active couples re-infecting themselves through intimate

contact.

>

> METHODS:

> Lyme spirochetes/DNA have been recovered from stored animal semen.

Recovery

> of spirochete DNA from nursing mother's breast milk and umbilical cord

blood

> by PCR (confirmed by culture/microscopy), have been found in samples

> provided to my office.

>

> RESULTS:

>

> Surprisingly, initial laboratory testing of semen samples provided by male

> Lyme patients (positive by western blot/PCR in blood) and the male sexual

> partner of a Lyme infected female patient were positive approximately 40%

of

> the time. PCR recovery of Lyme DNA nucleotide sequences with microscopic

> confirmation of semen samples yielded positive results in 14/32 Lyme

> patients (13 male semen samples and 1 vaginal pap). ALL positive

> semen/vaginal samples in patients with known sexual partners resulted in

> positive Lyme titres/PCR in their sexual partners. 3/4 positive semen

> patients had no or unknown sexual partners to be tested. These preliminary

> findings warrant further study. Current a statistical design study to

> evaluate the possibility of sexual transition of the spirochete is being

> undertaken. Our laboratory studies confirm the existence of Lyme

spirochetes

> in semen/vaginal secretions. Whether or not further clinical studies with

a

> larger statistical group will support the hypothesis of sexual

transmission

> remains to be seen. A retrospective clinical study is also underway. We

are

> reviewing the medical records, collecting semen samples of patients who

were

> previously diagnosed with current and previously treated Lyme disease are

> being asked to provide semen,pap and blood samples for extensive

laboratory

> testing.

>

> CONCLUSION;

>

> With the initially impressive data, we feel the subsequent statistical

study

> on the sexual transmission of the Lyme spirochete will illuminate a much

> broader spectrum of public health concerns associated with the disease

than

> the originally accepted tick borne vector.

>

>

>

>