Guest guest Posted April 28, 2001 Report Share Posted April 28, 2001 In a message dated 4/26/01 11:43:57 PM Eastern Daylight Time, golfdawg@... writes: > OK, I have read all this about Lyme being sexually transmitted....SO....... > > Is there even one PROVEN DOCUMENTED case of it being sexually > transmitted??? > If so, show me. Everyone can hypothesize the hell out of this but show me > something with meat on the bones. > > How about the spouses of almost every one of our patients finds out they are positive as well ? That's good enough for me. (I work for a LLMD). Of course the possibility exists that they are in the same environment and that can contribute to the chances of contracting the disease. It just seems too coincidental to me. Besides the fact, spirochetes ARE sexually transmitted. Why should the lyme spirochete be any different from the syphillis spirochete? Just my 2 cents. Blessings, Lorraine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 28, 2001 Report Share Posted April 28, 2001 In a message dated 4/28/01 5:26:30 PM Central Daylight Time, cheers4u@... writes: << How about the spouses of almost every one of our patients finds out they are positive as well ? That's good enough for me. (I work for a LLMD) >> Are there any studies? I'm sorry, but you are still just offering anecdotal evidence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 29, 2001 Report Share Posted April 29, 2001 In a message dated 4/27/01 8:48:39 AM, jean@... writes: << People are getting angry over differing opinions and that's not good. Exchanging ideas and thoughts is one thing but anger is not what's needed here. >> This is EXACTLY the point!!!! We have these msg. boards so we can all support each other, love each other and RESPECT one another no matter what the opinions are. The Dalai Lama says " Follow the three Rs: Respect for self, Respect for others, Responsibility for all your actions. " This whole disease is so we all can learn compassion; compassion for our fellow man. Don't sit in judgment. No one person has to be right. It is Sunday morning, a time for reflection. Plus I have had the most horrendous headache for a week now. sue in nj Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 29, 2001 Report Share Posted April 29, 2001 In a message dated 4/28/2001 6:26:39 PM Eastern Daylight Time, cheers4u@... writes: > > How about the spouses of almost every one of our patients finds out they > are > positive as well ? That's good enough for me. (I work for a LLMD). Of > course the possibility exists that they are in the same environment and > that > can contribute to the chances of contracting the disease. It just seems > too > coincidental to me. Besides the fact, spirochetes ARE sexually > transmitted. > Why should the lyme spirochete be any different from the syphillis > spirochete? > > Just my 2 cents. > > Blessings, > Dear Lorraine, Of almost all the couples I know, only one has Lyme, not both, so our Lymie contacts seem to be a different population sample. I think Rose & in TX are an example of one of the few couples I've heard of where both have it, but, as you say, that doesn't mean that they one gave it to the other. And, not all Spirochetes are the same, just as not all viruses are the same. Just because Treponema Pallidum (the Syphilis spriochete) gets transmitted sexually, does NOT mean Bb also gets transmitted sexually. I'll repeat: Lyme gets transmitted by tick bites. To the best of my knowledge Syphilis NEVER gets transmitted by tick bites. If all spirochetes act the same, please explain this. In other words, please do be careful, but on the other hand, please don't assume illogical conclusions & try to present them as facts. Thanks, a Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 29, 2001 Report Share Posted April 29, 2001 > Are there any studies? I'm sorry, but you are still just offering anecdotal > evidence. There arent studies for alot of things that LLMDs do or think. How can there be a study done anyhow? Testing sucks, so who's to say that the person didnt have lyme to begin with? Ticks are everywhere, so who's to say that they didnt get it from the environment? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 6, 2001 Report Share Posted August 6, 2001 It is my understanding that they have found DEAD DNA of Lyme in Semen. It is my understanding that it is NOT true that this is at all proof of sexual transmission of Lyme. I would like to see the medical proof that contradicts this. ~Beverly Reston, VA > Everyone: Here is the information on that lyme study if you have had 4 weeks or more of antibiotic therapy, already. Also, there is a lot of other information on lyme and how it affects our brains, both children and adults! Good hunting! KC in TX > I am still looking for that article about lyme disease being sexually transmitted under www.medscape - lyme- 14th annual Scientific Conference & other Tick-borne Disorders. I know that it is true because I read my doctor's copy of the presentations that were given back in April. Probably not all of the presentations were put on the internet, If anyone can get the actual website for this conference, my LLMD said a copy of the presentations were on their website or only $25.00 for a full copy. Just think what YOUR doctor could do with the information AND they can get continuing medication accreditation by reading the information and taking a test all in the comfort of their own home! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 7, 2001 Report Share Posted August 7, 2001 The following is what I received from Dr. Nick from Igenex. Re: [ ] Re: Sexually Transmitted Lyme > Beverly, > I had never heard that dead DNA of Bb was found in semen. If that were > true, it means to me that a few live ones can get through as well. Unless > sperm is the cure we have been looking for....only kidding. I really don't > know how they can prove this, how did they prove that syphilis is sexually > transmitted? > Marta > ----- Original Message ----- > From: <beverly@...> > > > > It is my understanding that they have found DEAD DNA of Lyme in > > Semen. It is my understanding that it is NOT true that this is at > > all proof of sexual transmission of Lyme. > > > > I would like to see the medical proof that contradicts this. > > > > ~Beverly > > Reston, VA > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 7, 2001 Report Share Posted August 7, 2001 Thanks for posting that Robynn ... appreciate it. Jean Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 7, 2001 Report Share Posted August 7, 2001 Beverly, I had never heard that dead DNA of Bb was found in semen. If that were true, it means to me that a few live ones can get through as well. Unless sperm is the cure we have been looking for....only kidding. I really don't know how they can prove this, how did they prove that syphilis is sexually transmitted? Marta ----- Original Message ----- From: <beverly@...> > It is my understanding that they have found DEAD DNA of Lyme in > Semen. It is my understanding that it is NOT true that this is at > all proof of sexual transmission of Lyme. > > I would like to see the medical proof that contradicts this. > > ~Beverly > Reston, VA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 8, 2001 Report Share Posted August 8, 2001 Marta, I have only hear this by word of mouth. I would greatly appreciate seeing a published paper on this. The person who gave me this information, a nurse who has followed the research extensively, has felt confident enough to start a new relationship. I have only just started following this. I did see the special on syphillis by PBS. I will have to do more research on this subject and ask my friend about further documentation. Healing hugs to all, ~Beverly > Beverly, > I had never heard that dead DNA of Bb was found in semen. If that were > true, it means to me that a few live ones can get through as well. Unless > sperm is the cure we have been looking for....only kidding. I really don't > know how they can prove this, how did they prove that syphilis is sexually > transmitted? > Marta > ----- Original Message ----- > From: <beverly@b...> > > > > It is my understanding that they have found DEAD DNA of Lyme in > > Semen. It is my understanding that it is NOT true that this is at > > all proof of sexual transmission of Lyme. > > > > I would like to see the medical proof that contradicts this. > > > > ~Beverly > > Reston, VA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 8, 2001 Report Share Posted August 8, 2001 Yes! Thanks Robynn! I sure would love to see the copy of that study. But I know that Dr.Nick is an extremely knowledgable source. I guess that means - we don't know yet. ~Beverly > Thanks for posting that Robynn ... appreciate it. > > Jean > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 8, 2001 Report Share Posted August 8, 2001 Beverly, I think we all want to see a published study on this, but until we do, it will always be questionable. We just have to try to use our own common sense and follow it. Marta ----- Original Message ----- From: <beverly@...> > Marta, > > I have only hear this by word of mouth. I would greatly appreciate > seeing a published paper on this. > > The person who gave me this information, a nurse who has followed the > research extensively, has felt confident enough to start a new > relationship. > > I have only just started following this. I did see the special on > syphillis by PBS. I will have to do more research on this subject > and ask my friend about further documentation. > > Healing hugs to all, > > ~Beverly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 9, 2001 Report Share Posted August 9, 2001 I went back and re-read Nick 's note about the study by Bach. I think we can trust him to be knowledgeable enough to be accurate about this. I have asked him, via email, if he had access to the study. But I think his comment is enough for now, He says - as I bolded below- that all that was found was DNA, NOT spirochete cells. DNA can not transfer Lyme. As Dr. says, IF semen was found to contain SPIROCHETES, THEN one would need to study the possibility of transference of Lyme. But so far there is no study that shows that there are Spirochete in the semen. I know of no other study that has been done to refute this. Does anyone else?? ~Beverly Reston, VA > The following is what I received from Dr. Nick from Igenex. > > > Re: [ ] Re: Sexually Transmitted Lyme > > > > Beverly, > > I had never heard that dead DNA of Bb was found in semen. If that were > > true, it means to me that a few live ones can get through as well. Unless > > sperm is the cure we have been looking for....only kidding. I really > don't > > know how they can prove this, how did they prove that syphilis is sexually > > transmitted? > > Marta > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: <beverly@b...> > > > > > > > It is my understanding that they have found DEAD DNA of Lyme in > > > Semen. It is my understanding that it is NOT true that this is at > > > all proof of sexual transmission of Lyme. > > > > > > I would like to see the medical proof that contradicts this. > > > > > > ~Beverly > > > Reston, VA > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 12, 2001 Report Share Posted August 12, 2001 Can people with Lyme Donate blood or organs? Sheryl [ ] Re: Sexually Transmitted Lyme > I went back and re-read Nick 's note about the study by Bach. > I think we can trust him to be knowledgeable enough to be accurate > about this. I have asked him, via email, if he had access to the > study. But I think his comment is enough for now, He says - as I > bolded below- that all that was found was DNA, NOT spirochete > cells. DNA can not transfer Lyme. As Dr. says, IF semen was > found to contain SPIROCHETES, THEN one would need to study the > possibility of transference of Lyme. > > But so far there is no study that shows that there are Spirochete in > the semen. > > I know of no other study that has been done to refute this. Does > anyone else?? > > ~Beverly > Reston, VA > > > > > > The following is what I received from Dr. Nick from Igenex. > > > > > > Re: [ ] Re: Sexually Transmitted Lyme > > > > > > > Beverly, > > > I had never heard that dead DNA of Bb was found in semen. If > that were > > > true, it means to me that a few live ones can get through as > well. Unless > > > sperm is the cure we have been looking for....only kidding. I > really > > don't > > > know how they can prove this, how did they prove that syphilis is > sexually > > > transmitted? > > > Marta > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: <beverly@b...> > > > > > > > > > > It is my understanding that they have found DEAD DNA of Lyme in > > > > Semen. It is my understanding that it is NOT true that this is > at > > > > all proof of sexual transmission of Lyme. > > > > > > > > I would like to see the medical proof that contradicts this. > > > > > > > > ~Beverly > > > > Reston, VA > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 12, 2001 Report Share Posted August 12, 2001 > Can people with Lyme Donate blood or organs? NO NO NO!!!! I donated blood for at least 15 yrs when I was unaware that I had Lyme. I try not to think of all the people I might have made sick, I'd cry if I did. Since Lyme Spirochetes invade muscle, Blood ( not all the time ), Bone and nerves, the possibility of donating an infected organ is great. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 12, 2001 Report Share Posted August 12, 2001 I was told by a Red Cross Bloodmobile person that I shouldn't donate ... so I don't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 13, 2001 Report Share Posted August 13, 2001 In a message dated 8/13/01 8:31:51 AM Central Daylight Time, edina@... writes: << Just curious if any of you have thought about the repocussions of what you are saying? Why the tide against the obvious and not more care in protecting the ones not infected. If you can't base it on science yet because no one is even looking then...conscience! >> I still think this thread is much-ado about very little. Many of you are paranoid that Lyme can be transmitted sexually. Then, by all means, use condoms, or even better, abstain. But I tire of reading " opinions " castigating others if they choose not to use protection when there is no scientific evidence it can be sexually transmitted. OK, there is DNA in semen. So what? Does one conclude that it is transmitted sexually because of that? NO! I, too, have a clear conscience about having sex without the fear and worries of transmitting Lyme. I have enough things to worry about in my life without worrying something that *no one* has proven can be passed sexually. And even if it is possible, the odds are probably so miniscule as to be statistically insignificant. I had a healthcare professional tell me once that HIV is very difficult to transmit sexually, unless you use risky behavior many, many times and even then it is hard to do. The conservative right and the media would like you to think it is, but it's not. Of course, HIV is a horrible thing to have but the greatest majority of heterosexual Americans have nothing to worry about. I won't say anything more about this thread but I would hate to have a couple not have sex and damage even further a stressful life by changing or ruining their sex life due to rumors and unfounded opinions. Like I said, we have enough to worry about without adding to the known facts with this additional line of thinking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 13, 2001 Report Share Posted August 13, 2001 > > But so far there is no study that shows that there are Spirochete in > the semen. > > I know of no other study that has been done to refute this. Does > anyone else?? > > ~Beverly > Reston, VA > Just curious if any of you have thought about the repocussions of what you are saying? Why the tide against the obvious and not more care in protecting the ones not infected. If you can't base it on science yet because no one is even looking then...conscience! I am not trying to be mean but think about the logic used. Gee, lets see, I have got this horrible illness that is causing me great despair, pain, plethora of symptoms, and years of antibiotic treatment, so I think I will go have unprotected sex and maybe even a baby. This, along with gestational Lyme existance, is the finest example of the ostrich mentality. Why would you think that there is DNA present in semen without spirochetes? Yes, perhaps this DNA was from dead bacteria cleared through our body filters, but with all of the symptoms that are present in genito/urino system it seems pretty suggestive that there would be active infection present. Besides, the PCR is only testing for DNA so of course it would not show viable spirochetes but that does not mean that they aren't there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 13, 2001 Report Share Posted August 13, 2001 I've told my story before, but I will tell it again. My husband had a vasectomy in 1972. I was infected with Lyme in 1990. We never used protection. Never! I have chronic Lyme. He is totally healthy. He does not have Lyme. We know several people with Lyme. They do not use protection. Their partners are healthy. They do not have Lyme. I don't know if Lyme is sexually transmitted or not, but in MY case, it is not. Obviously. My contention is that when you see couples with Lyme, they were in the same place at the same time and were both infected. My husband and I choose not to use protection ... we're in our 50's and have a very active sex life. If people are concerned about sexually transmitting Lyme to a partner, then by all means, they should use protection. And my conscience is clear. Jean Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 13, 2001 Report Share Posted August 13, 2001 K, Heres my story. I have Lyme, have had it since at least 83. Hubby has never been sick and was only tested because alot of the LLMD's think it can be sexually transmitted, its hard to prove either way scientifically. Hubbys test came back pos, with even more bands than I showed yet he has NEVER had even the first symptom. So it is possible for a spouse to have Lyme and never have a symptom. Whos to say it was sexually transmitted? Who knows for sure?? Now we err on the side of caution. It is know that the spirochette can be found in blood, muscle, bone, nerves, breast milk, and vaginal fluids, it can be passed to fetus. Makes a person wonder......... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 13, 2001 Report Share Posted August 13, 2001 He is totally healthy. He does not have Lyme. We know several people with Lyme. They do not use protection. Their partners are healthy. They do not have Lyme. I don't know if Lyme is sexually transmitted or not, but in MY case, it is not. Obviously. No, not obviously. I just made a post about this and forgot to leave this paragraph in it. My hubby is perfectly healthy yet has Lyme. You can only say 'obviously' if ALL the partners have been tested for Lyme, and not just one test, as we all know that isnt enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 13, 2001 Report Share Posted August 13, 2001 Zentralbl Bakteriol Mikrobiol Hyg [A] 1986 Dec;263(1-2):40-4 Related Articles, Books, LinkOut The prevalence and significance of Borrelia burgdorferi in the urine of feral reservoir hosts. Bosler EM, Schulze TL. Live Borrelia burgdorferi were isolated from the blood and/or urine of white-footed mice (Peromyscus leucopus) collected on Shelter Island, New York, in 1984 and 1985. Prevalence of spirochetes in urine was consistently higher than in blood or both fluids simultaneously. Spirochetes remained viable for 18-24 hours in urine and were maintained in culture for one week. Mice removed from the field were spirocheturic for at least 13 months. One spirocheturic mouse developed spirochetemia one month after field removal indicating the pathogen can return to the peripheral circulation. Twenty-one kidneys from 22 mice had spirochetes in the interstitial areas and bridging the tubules. A positive correlation between Babesia microti infection and spirocheturia was seen. Although the mechanism of entry into the urine is unknown, B. microti infection may increase glomerular permeability. Babesia induced hematuria may provide possible nutrients to maintain spirochetes. Urine may provide a method for contact non-tick transmission of B. burgdorferi in natural rodent populations particularly during periods of nesting and/or breeding. PMID: 3577491 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Re: [ ] Re: Sexually Transmitted Lyme I've told my story before, but I will tell it again. My husband had a vasectomy in 1972. I was infected with Lyme in 1990. We never used protection. Never! I have chronic Lyme. He is totally healthy. He does not have Lyme. We know several people with Lyme. They do not use protection. Their partners are healthy. They do not have Lyme. I don't know if Lyme is sexually transmitted or not, but in MY case, it is not. Obviously. My contention is that when you see couples with Lyme, they were in the same place at the same time and were both infected. My husband and I choose not to use protection ... we're in our 50's and have a very active sex life. If people are concerned about sexually transmitting Lyme to a partner, then by all means, they should use protection. And my conscience is clear. Jean Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 13, 2001 Report Share Posted August 13, 2001 > Many of you are paranoid that Lyme can be transmitted sexually. Then, by all > means, use condoms, or even better, abstain. But I tire of reading > " opinions " castigating others if they choose not to use protection when there > is no scientific evidence it can be sexually transmitted. I am not Paranoid, how dare you write something to that effect. And even worse, how dare you say that we should abstain from sex. I tire of reading alot of posts also, but there is such a thing as a delete button. You are correct, there is no scientific evidence that Lyme is Sexually Transmitted. But as it has been said before, 'Absence of proof, is not proof of absence'. I wonder if there was ever a scientific study to whether or not Lyme can be passed to a fetus?? I bet not, bets its only what Drs have found to be true. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 19, 2002 Report Share Posted September 19, 2002 Dear Gang, I have attached my testimony as I believe I contracted Lyme sexually, and that this should be made known. Please feel free to share this information with your doctors or anyone you think may be helped by it. Sorry it's a bit long, but I feel it is important, especially for those of you who are not getting well on the anti-biotics. Wishing you all health, Rosemary. -------------------------------------------------------------------- > This is an abstract presented by Dr. Bach at the International Scientific > Conference on Lyme Disease, April, 2001. > RECOVERY OF LYME SPIROCHETES BY PCR IN SEMEN SAMPLES OF PREVIOUSLY DIAGNOSED > LYME DISEASE PATIENTS > > Dr. Bach, Do.O.,P.C. > OBJECTIVE > > Lyme disease, being a spirochete with pathology similar to syphilis, is > often found difficult to treat due to the spirochete invading sanctuary > sites and displaying pleomorphic characteristics such as a cyst (L-form). > Because a significant portion of sexually active couples present to my > office with Lyme disease, with only one partner having a history of tick > exposure, the question of possible secondary (sexual)vector of transmission > for the spirochete warrents inquiry. Additionally, sexually active couples > seem to have a marked propensity for antibiotic failure raising the question > of sexually active couples re-infecting themselves through intimate contact. > > METHODS: > Lyme spirochetes/DNA have been recovered from stored animal semen. Recovery > of spirochete DNA from nursing mother's breast milk and umbilical cord blood > by PCR (confirmed by culture/microscopy), have been found in samples > provided to my office. > > RESULTS: > > Surprisingly, initial laboratory testing of semen samples provided by male > Lyme patients (positive by western blot/PCR in blood) and the male sexual > partner of a Lyme infected female patient were positive approximately 40% of > the time. PCR recovery of Lyme DNA nucleotide sequences with microscopic > confirmation of semen samples yielded positive results in 14/32 Lyme > patients (13 male semen samples and 1 vaginal pap). ALL positive > semen/vaginal samples in patients with known sexual partners resulted in > positive Lyme titres/PCR in their sexual partners. 3/4 positive semen > patients had no or unknown sexual partners to be tested. These preliminary > findings warrant further study. Current a statistical design study to > evaluate the possibility of sexual transition of the spirochete is being > undertaken. Our laboratory studies confirm the existence of Lyme spirochetes > in semen/vaginal secretions. Whether or not further clinical studies with a > larger statistical group will support the hypothesis of sexual transmission > remains to be seen. A retrospective clinical study is also underway. We are > reviewing the medical records, collecting semen samples of patients who were > previously diagnosed with current and previously treated Lyme disease are > being asked to provide semen,pap and blood samples for extensive laboratory > testing. > > CONCLUSION; > > With the initially impressive data, we feel the subsequent statistical study > on the sexual transmission of the Lyme spirochete will illuminate a much > broader spectrum of public health concerns associated with the disease than > the originally accepted tick borne vector. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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