Re: Volunteer FF treating patients

[Guest guest]

A question for those of you familiar with fire

department based FROs. I was recently told that as a

volunteer ff I cannot treat a patient. I was told

that the FD needs to be registered as an FRO and have

an agreement with the EMS company who transports.

This area the FD covers is around 10 miles from a

hospital, however some areas are even further. It is

considered a rural area. The EMS service complained

about Albuterol being administered to a patient having

an asthma attack by a medic who is a volunteer ff and

a medic with another company. It was recognized that

the pt was having a severe asthma attack, and a ff who

has a child with asthma routinely carries oxygen,

nebulizers and Albuterol just in case. Would this not

fall under Good Samaritan laws based on the fact that

anyone who has been around asthma sufferers would

recognize and attack and know to give a treatment if

available?

Also does a person who is teaching ff classes on

training day at the FD required to have a fire

specific instructor cert or can it also be EMS or PD?

Salvador Capuchino Jr

EMT-Paramedic/Volunteer FF

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

A question for those of you familiar with fire

department based FROs. I was recently told that as a

volunteer ff I cannot treat a patient. I was told

that the FD needs to be registered as an FRO and have

an agreement with the EMS company who transports.

This area the FD covers is around 10 miles from a

hospital, however some areas are even further. It is

considered a rural area. The EMS service complained

about Albuterol being administered to a patient having

an asthma attack by a medic who is a volunteer ff and

a medic with another company. It was recognized that

the pt was having a severe asthma attack, and a ff who

has a child with asthma routinely carries oxygen,

nebulizers and Albuterol just in case. Would this not

fall under Good Samaritan laws based on the fact that

anyone who has been around asthma sufferers would

recognize and attack and know to give a treatment if

available?

Also does a person who is teaching ff classes on

training day at the FD required to have a fire

specific instructor cert or can it also be EMS or PD?

Salvador Capuchino Jr

EMT-Paramedic/Volunteer FF

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

It is my understanding that a Paramedic or Intermediate cannot do any

ALS skills, unless the EMS provider and medical director are both

comfortable with the FRO performing these skills. I would think it

would be a liability issue for a FRO to do ALS skills, like medication

administration, intubation, IV's, IO's, etc. I may be wrong. Just me 2

cents. Take care.

R EMT-P

www.parisems.com

[Guest guest]

It is my understanding that a Paramedic or Intermediate cannot do any

ALS skills, unless the EMS provider and medical director are both

comfortable with the FRO performing these skills. I would think it

would be a liability issue for a FRO to do ALS skills, like medication

administration, intubation, IV's, IO's, etc. I may be wrong. Just me 2

cents. Take care.

R EMT-P

www.parisems.com

[Guest guest]

It is my understanding that a Paramedic or Intermediate cannot do any

ALS skills, unless the EMS provider and medical director are both

comfortable with the FRO performing these skills. I would think it

would be a liability issue for a FRO to do ALS skills, like medication

administration, intubation, IV's, IO's, etc. I may be wrong. Just me 2

cents. Take care.

R EMT-P

www.parisems.com

[Guest guest]

If you are a certified first responder,and you have a

medical director that allows you to work off your

providers advanced protocols,then yes,Advanced skills

may be used. Some agencies,such as Fort Worth,have

limited ALS intervention protocols.

--- medicswat wrote:

> It is my understanding that a Paramedic or

> Intermediate cannot do any

> ALS skills, unless the EMS provider and medical

> director are both

> comfortable with the FRO performing these skills. I

> would think it

> would be a liability issue for a FRO to do ALS

> skills, like medication

> administration, intubation, IV's, IO's, etc. I may

> be wrong. Just me 2

> cents. Take care.

>

> R EMT-P

> www.parisems.com

>

>

>

>

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

If you are a certified first responder,and you have a

medical director that allows you to work off your

providers advanced protocols,then yes,Advanced skills

may be used. Some agencies,such as Fort Worth,have

limited ALS intervention protocols.

--- medicswat wrote:

> It is my understanding that a Paramedic or

> Intermediate cannot do any

> ALS skills, unless the EMS provider and medical

> director are both

> comfortable with the FRO performing these skills. I

> would think it

> would be a liability issue for a FRO to do ALS

> skills, like medication

> administration, intubation, IV's, IO's, etc. I may

> be wrong. Just me 2

> cents. Take care.

>

> R EMT-P

> www.parisems.com

>

>

>

>

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

I am the Medical Officer for a fire department, we have our medical director

which is also the medical director for the EMS agency that is based here and

not to mention that I also work for the EMS agency. We have several

agreements with the EMS and MD. Now if it was a situation where we have it

on our truck then yes we can administer it under the direct protocol of the

EMS agency. Our protocols and the agencies protocols are just about the

same except for some meds that we cannot administer. I do not think that it

would fall under the Good Samaritan act because he is trained in the medical

field and knows what to do in case of something like that even though he has

a child with asthma, he is trained to give O2, neb, and albuterol. Just

what I think. JTMEDIC

Re: Volunteer FF treating patients

A question for those of you familiar with fire

department based FROs. I was recently told that as a

volunteer ff I cannot treat a patient. I was told

that the FD needs to be registered as an FRO and have

an agreement with the EMS company who transports.

This area the FD covers is around 10 miles from a

hospital, however some areas are even further. It is

considered a rural area. The EMS service complained

about Albuterol being administered to a patient having

an asthma attack by a medic who is a volunteer ff and

a medic with another company. It was recognized that

the pt was having a severe asthma attack, and a ff who

has a child with asthma routinely carries oxygen,

nebulizers and Albuterol just in case. Would this not

fall under Good Samaritan laws based on the fact that

anyone who has been around asthma sufferers would

recognize and attack and know to give a treatment if

available?

Also does a person who is teaching ff classes on

training day at the FD required to have a fire

specific instructor cert or can it also be EMS or PD?

Salvador Capuchino Jr

EMT-Paramedic/Volunteer FF

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

I am the Medical Officer for a fire department, we have our medical director

which is also the medical director for the EMS agency that is based here and

not to mention that I also work for the EMS agency. We have several

agreements with the EMS and MD. Now if it was a situation where we have it

on our truck then yes we can administer it under the direct protocol of the

EMS agency. Our protocols and the agencies protocols are just about the

same except for some meds that we cannot administer. I do not think that it

would fall under the Good Samaritan act because he is trained in the medical

field and knows what to do in case of something like that even though he has

a child with asthma, he is trained to give O2, neb, and albuterol. Just

what I think. JTMEDIC

Re: Volunteer FF treating patients

A question for those of you familiar with fire

department based FROs. I was recently told that as a

volunteer ff I cannot treat a patient. I was told

that the FD needs to be registered as an FRO and have

an agreement with the EMS company who transports.

This area the FD covers is around 10 miles from a

hospital, however some areas are even further. It is

considered a rural area. The EMS service complained

about Albuterol being administered to a patient having

an asthma attack by a medic who is a volunteer ff and

a medic with another company. It was recognized that

the pt was having a severe asthma attack, and a ff who

has a child with asthma routinely carries oxygen,

nebulizers and Albuterol just in case. Would this not

fall under Good Samaritan laws based on the fact that

anyone who has been around asthma sufferers would

recognize and attack and know to give a treatment if

available?

Also does a person who is teaching ff classes on

training day at the FD required to have a fire

specific instructor cert or can it also be EMS or PD?

Salvador Capuchino Jr

EMT-Paramedic/Volunteer FF

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

I am the Medical Officer for a fire department, we have our medical director

which is also the medical director for the EMS agency that is based here and

not to mention that I also work for the EMS agency. We have several

agreements with the EMS and MD. Now if it was a situation where we have it

on our truck then yes we can administer it under the direct protocol of the

EMS agency. Our protocols and the agencies protocols are just about the

same except for some meds that we cannot administer. I do not think that it

would fall under the Good Samaritan act because he is trained in the medical

field and knows what to do in case of something like that even though he has

a child with asthma, he is trained to give O2, neb, and albuterol. Just

what I think. JTMEDIC

Re: Volunteer FF treating patients

A question for those of you familiar with fire

department based FROs. I was recently told that as a

volunteer ff I cannot treat a patient. I was told

that the FD needs to be registered as an FRO and have

an agreement with the EMS company who transports.

This area the FD covers is around 10 miles from a

hospital, however some areas are even further. It is

considered a rural area. The EMS service complained

about Albuterol being administered to a patient having

an asthma attack by a medic who is a volunteer ff and

a medic with another company. It was recognized that

the pt was having a severe asthma attack, and a ff who

has a child with asthma routinely carries oxygen,

nebulizers and Albuterol just in case. Would this not

fall under Good Samaritan laws based on the fact that

anyone who has been around asthma sufferers would

recognize and attack and know to give a treatment if

available?

Also does a person who is teaching ff classes on

training day at the FD required to have a fire

specific instructor cert or can it also be EMS or PD?

Salvador Capuchino Jr

EMT-Paramedic/Volunteer FF

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Albuterol is a BLS med.

--- medicswat wrote:

> It is my understanding that a Paramedic or

> Intermediate cannot do any

> ALS skills, unless the EMS provider and medical

> director are both

> comfortable with the FRO performing these skills. I

> would think it

> would be a liability issue for a FRO to do ALS

> skills, like medication

> administration, intubation, IV's, IO's, etc. I may

> be wrong. Just me 2

> cents. Take care.

>

> R EMT-P

> www.parisems.com

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Albuterol is a BLS med.

--- medicswat wrote:

> It is my understanding that a Paramedic or

> Intermediate cannot do any

> ALS skills, unless the EMS provider and medical

> director are both

> comfortable with the FRO performing these skills. I

> would think it

> would be a liability issue for a FRO to do ALS

> skills, like medication

> administration, intubation, IV's, IO's, etc. I may

> be wrong. Just me 2

> cents. Take care.

>

> R EMT-P

> www.parisems.com

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Depends on the organization's protocols as determined by the medical director,

Sal.

-Wes Ogilvie, MPA, JD, EMT-B

Attorney at Law/Emergency Medical Technician

Austin, Texas

Re: Re: Volunteer FF treating patients

Albuterol is a BLS med.

--- medicswat wrote:

> It is my understanding that a Paramedic or

> Intermediate cannot do any

> ALS skills, unless the EMS provider and medical

> director are both

> comfortable with the FRO performing these skills. I

> would think it

> would be a liability issue for a FRO to do ALS

> skills, like medication

> administration, intubation, IV's, IO's, etc. I may

> be wrong. Just me 2

> cents. Take care.

>

> R EMT-P

> www.parisems.com

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Depends on the organization's protocols as determined by the medical director,

Sal.

-Wes Ogilvie, MPA, JD, EMT-B

Attorney at Law/Emergency Medical Technician

Austin, Texas

Re: Re: Volunteer FF treating patients

Albuterol is a BLS med.

--- medicswat wrote:

> It is my understanding that a Paramedic or

> Intermediate cannot do any

> ALS skills, unless the EMS provider and medical

> director are both

> comfortable with the FRO performing these skills. I

> would think it

> would be a liability issue for a FRO to do ALS

> skills, like medication

> administration, intubation, IV's, IO's, etc. I may

> be wrong. Just me 2

> cents. Take care.

>

> R EMT-P

> www.parisems.com

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

But it is a Med, which requires a Medical Director to administer

Re: Re: Volunteer FF treating patients

Albuterol is a BLS med.

--- medicswat wrote:

> It is my understanding that a Paramedic or

> Intermediate cannot do any

> ALS skills, unless the EMS provider and medical

> director are both

> comfortable with the FRO performing these skills. I

> would think it

> would be a liability issue for a FRO to do ALS

> skills, like medication

> administration, intubation, IV's, IO's, etc. I may

> be wrong. Just me 2

> cents. Take care.

>

> R EMT-P

> www.parisems.com

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

But it is a Med, which requires a Medical Director to administer

Re: Re: Volunteer FF treating patients

Albuterol is a BLS med.

--- medicswat wrote:

> It is my understanding that a Paramedic or

> Intermediate cannot do any

> ALS skills, unless the EMS provider and medical

> director are both

> comfortable with the FRO performing these skills. I

> would think it

> would be a liability issue for a FRO to do ALS

> skills, like medication

> administration, intubation, IV's, IO's, etc. I may

> be wrong. Just me 2

> cents. Take care.

>

> R EMT-P

> www.parisems.com

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

But it is a Med, which requires a Medical Director to administer

Re: Re: Volunteer FF treating patients

Albuterol is a BLS med.

--- medicswat wrote:

> It is my understanding that a Paramedic or

> Intermediate cannot do any

> ALS skills, unless the EMS provider and medical

> director are both

> comfortable with the FRO performing these skills. I

> would think it

> would be a liability issue for a FRO to do ALS

> skills, like medication

> administration, intubation, IV's, IO's, etc. I may

> be wrong. Just me 2

> cents. Take care.

>

> R EMT-P

> www.parisems.com

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Sal,

As a Volunteer FF you can treat patients. You can provide anything that the

common layperson can provide even in the absence of a FR agreement or protocols.

There is no requirement that your FD be a registered FRO to provide treatment or

other medical interventions. EMT’s and Paramedics are not autonomous so you

must have some type of medical oversight to provide specialized treatments.

In order to be able to provide these specialized treatments (those that the

common layperson can not provide) you must have protocols to operate under. So,

the way I see it you have 4 options.

Option 1: Your employer provides you with written permission to operate under

their protocols at all times, even if off duty.

Option 2: Your Volunteer FD is a registered FRO and has protocols from a

licensed EMS agency that services your area to operate under their protocols.

Option 3: Your Volunteer FD has a written FR agreement (even in the absence of

being a registered FRO) to operate under their protocols.

Option 4: Your Volunteer FD contracts with a medical director and they provide

protocols for you to operate under.

I can’t think of another situation but I might have missed one. Albuterol is

a prescription medication, and is not available to the common lay person.

Therefore, it can not be administered without a protocol in place to allow such

administration. This would be no different than administering oxygen,

intubating, cardioverting, starting an IV, administering morphine, or any other

skill that required a physician’s oversight.

If you can go as a lay person to the local Red Cross office and take a class

on first aid and learn a treatment, (bandaging & splinting, bleeding control,

shock prevention, etc) then you can do it without a protocol in place.

Otherwise, pick an option above or formulate one that provides a written binding

agreement between you as a FD FR and some medical control entity.

As for the Good Samaritan Law: The Texas Civil Practice & Remedies Code Chapter

74

Subsection 74.152. UNLICENSED MEDICAL PERSONNEL. Persons not licensed or

certified in the healing arts who in good faith administer emergency care as

emergency medical service personnel are not liable in civil damages for an act

performed in administering the care unless the act is willfully or wantonly

negligent. This section applies without regard to whether the care is provided

for or in expectation of remuneration.

Subsection 74.153. STANDARD OF PROOF IN CASES INVOLVING EMERGENCY MEDICAL CARE.

In a suit involving a health care liability claim against a physician or health

care provider for injury to or death of a patient arising out of the provision

of emergency medical care in a hospital emergency department or obstetrical unit

or in a surgical suite immediately following the evaluation or treatment of a

patient in a hospital emergency department, the claimant bringing the suit may

prove that the treatment or lack of treatment by the physician or health care

provider departed from accepted standards of medical care or health care only if

the claimant shows by a preponderance of the evidence that the physician or

health care provider, with willful and wanton negligence, deviated from the

degree of care and skill that is reasonably expected of an ordinarily prudent

physician or health care provider in the same or similar circumstances.

§ 74.154. JURY INSTRUCTIONS IN CASES INVOLVING EMERGENCY MEDICAL CARE. (a) In

an action for damages that involves a claim of negligence arising from the

provision of emergency medical care in a hospital emergency department or

obstetrical unit or in a surgical suite immediately following the evaluation or

treatment of a patient in a hospital emergency department, the court shall

instruct the jury to consider, together with all other relevant matters:

(1) whether the person providing care did or did not have the patient's medical

history or was able or unable to obtain a full medical history, including the

knowledge of preexisting medical conditions, allergies, and medications;

(2) the presence or lack of a preexisting physician-patient relationship or

health care provider-patient relationship;

(3) the circumstances constituting the emergency; and

(4) the circumstances surrounding the delivery of the emergency medical care.

( The provisions of Subsection (a) do not apply to medical care or treatment:

(1) that occurs after the patient is stabilized and is capable of receiving

medical treatment as a non-emergency patient;

(2) that is unrelated to the original medical emergency; or

(3) that is related to an emergency caused in whole or in part by the

negligence of the defendant.

Keep in mind; you’re talking Civil Damages when you say the Good Samaritan Law.

This simply means if sued, you can claim this as a defense. This does not mean

that you can’t be prosecuted by the DA for an act or censured by DSHS for acting

outside your certification. Don’t confuse criminal acts or omissions with civil

liability. They are completely different things, remember OJ????

Tater

salvador capuchino wrote: A question for those of you

familiar with fire

department based FROs. I was recently told that as a

volunteer ff I cannot treat a patient. I was told

that the FD needs to be registered as an FRO and have

an agreement with the EMS company who transports.

This area the FD covers is around 10 miles from a

hospital, however some areas are even further. It is

considered a rural area. The EMS service complained

about Albuterol being administered to a patient having

an asthma attack by a medic who is a volunteer ff and

a medic with another company. It was recognized that

the pt was having a severe asthma attack, and a ff who

has a child with asthma routinely carries oxygen,

nebulizers and Albuterol just in case. Would this not

fall under Good Samaritan laws based on the fact that

anyone who has been around asthma sufferers would

recognize and attack and know to give a treatment if

available?

Also does a person who is teaching ff classes on

training day at the FD required to have a fire

specific instructor cert or can it also be EMS or PD?

Salvador Capuchino Jr

EMT-Paramedic/Volunteer FF

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Sal,

As a Volunteer FF you can treat patients. You can provide anything that the

common layperson can provide even in the absence of a FR agreement or protocols.

There is no requirement that your FD be a registered FRO to provide treatment or

other medical interventions. EMT’s and Paramedics are not autonomous so you

must have some type of medical oversight to provide specialized treatments.

In order to be able to provide these specialized treatments (those that the

common layperson can not provide) you must have protocols to operate under. So,

the way I see it you have 4 options.

Option 1: Your employer provides you with written permission to operate under

their protocols at all times, even if off duty.

Option 2: Your Volunteer FD is a registered FRO and has protocols from a

licensed EMS agency that services your area to operate under their protocols.

Option 3: Your Volunteer FD has a written FR agreement (even in the absence of

being a registered FRO) to operate under their protocols.

Option 4: Your Volunteer FD contracts with a medical director and they provide

protocols for you to operate under.

I can’t think of another situation but I might have missed one. Albuterol is

a prescription medication, and is not available to the common lay person.

Therefore, it can not be administered without a protocol in place to allow such

administration. This would be no different than administering oxygen,

intubating, cardioverting, starting an IV, administering morphine, or any other

skill that required a physician’s oversight.

If you can go as a lay person to the local Red Cross office and take a class

on first aid and learn a treatment, (bandaging & splinting, bleeding control,

shock prevention, etc) then you can do it without a protocol in place.

Otherwise, pick an option above or formulate one that provides a written binding

agreement between you as a FD FR and some medical control entity.

As for the Good Samaritan Law: The Texas Civil Practice & Remedies Code Chapter

74

Subsection 74.152. UNLICENSED MEDICAL PERSONNEL. Persons not licensed or

certified in the healing arts who in good faith administer emergency care as

emergency medical service personnel are not liable in civil damages for an act

performed in administering the care unless the act is willfully or wantonly

negligent. This section applies without regard to whether the care is provided

for or in expectation of remuneration.

Subsection 74.153. STANDARD OF PROOF IN CASES INVOLVING EMERGENCY MEDICAL CARE.

In a suit involving a health care liability claim against a physician or health

care provider for injury to or death of a patient arising out of the provision

of emergency medical care in a hospital emergency department or obstetrical unit

or in a surgical suite immediately following the evaluation or treatment of a

patient in a hospital emergency department, the claimant bringing the suit may

prove that the treatment or lack of treatment by the physician or health care

provider departed from accepted standards of medical care or health care only if

the claimant shows by a preponderance of the evidence that the physician or

health care provider, with willful and wanton negligence, deviated from the

degree of care and skill that is reasonably expected of an ordinarily prudent

physician or health care provider in the same or similar circumstances.

§ 74.154. JURY INSTRUCTIONS IN CASES INVOLVING EMERGENCY MEDICAL CARE. (a) In

an action for damages that involves a claim of negligence arising from the

provision of emergency medical care in a hospital emergency department or

obstetrical unit or in a surgical suite immediately following the evaluation or

treatment of a patient in a hospital emergency department, the court shall

instruct the jury to consider, together with all other relevant matters:

(1) whether the person providing care did or did not have the patient's medical

history or was able or unable to obtain a full medical history, including the

knowledge of preexisting medical conditions, allergies, and medications;

(2) the presence or lack of a preexisting physician-patient relationship or

health care provider-patient relationship;

(3) the circumstances constituting the emergency; and

(4) the circumstances surrounding the delivery of the emergency medical care.

( The provisions of Subsection (a) do not apply to medical care or treatment:

(1) that occurs after the patient is stabilized and is capable of receiving

medical treatment as a non-emergency patient;

(2) that is unrelated to the original medical emergency; or

(3) that is related to an emergency caused in whole or in part by the

negligence of the defendant.

Keep in mind; you’re talking Civil Damages when you say the Good Samaritan Law.

This simply means if sued, you can claim this as a defense. This does not mean

that you can’t be prosecuted by the DA for an act or censured by DSHS for acting

outside your certification. Don’t confuse criminal acts or omissions with civil

liability. They are completely different things, remember OJ????

Tater

salvador capuchino wrote: A question for those of you

familiar with fire

department based FROs. I was recently told that as a

volunteer ff I cannot treat a patient. I was told

that the FD needs to be registered as an FRO and have

an agreement with the EMS company who transports.

This area the FD covers is around 10 miles from a

hospital, however some areas are even further. It is

considered a rural area. The EMS service complained

about Albuterol being administered to a patient having

an asthma attack by a medic who is a volunteer ff and

a medic with another company. It was recognized that

the pt was having a severe asthma attack, and a ff who

has a child with asthma routinely carries oxygen,

nebulizers and Albuterol just in case. Would this not

fall under Good Samaritan laws based on the fact that

anyone who has been around asthma sufferers would

recognize and attack and know to give a treatment if

available?

Also does a person who is teaching ff classes on

training day at the FD required to have a fire

specific instructor cert or can it also be EMS or PD?

Salvador Capuchino Jr

EMT-Paramedic/Volunteer FF

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Sal,

As a Volunteer FF you can treat patients. You can provide anything that the

common layperson can provide even in the absence of a FR agreement or protocols.

There is no requirement that your FD be a registered FRO to provide treatment or

other medical interventions. EMT’s and Paramedics are not autonomous so you

must have some type of medical oversight to provide specialized treatments.

In order to be able to provide these specialized treatments (those that the

common layperson can not provide) you must have protocols to operate under. So,

the way I see it you have 4 options.

Option 1: Your employer provides you with written permission to operate under

their protocols at all times, even if off duty.

Option 2: Your Volunteer FD is a registered FRO and has protocols from a

licensed EMS agency that services your area to operate under their protocols.

Option 3: Your Volunteer FD has a written FR agreement (even in the absence of

being a registered FRO) to operate under their protocols.

Option 4: Your Volunteer FD contracts with a medical director and they provide

protocols for you to operate under.

I can’t think of another situation but I might have missed one. Albuterol is

a prescription medication, and is not available to the common lay person.

Therefore, it can not be administered without a protocol in place to allow such

administration. This would be no different than administering oxygen,

intubating, cardioverting, starting an IV, administering morphine, or any other

skill that required a physician’s oversight.

If you can go as a lay person to the local Red Cross office and take a class

on first aid and learn a treatment, (bandaging & splinting, bleeding control,

shock prevention, etc) then you can do it without a protocol in place.

Otherwise, pick an option above or formulate one that provides a written binding

agreement between you as a FD FR and some medical control entity.

As for the Good Samaritan Law: The Texas Civil Practice & Remedies Code Chapter

74

Subsection 74.152. UNLICENSED MEDICAL PERSONNEL. Persons not licensed or

certified in the healing arts who in good faith administer emergency care as

emergency medical service personnel are not liable in civil damages for an act

performed in administering the care unless the act is willfully or wantonly

negligent. This section applies without regard to whether the care is provided

for or in expectation of remuneration.

Subsection 74.153. STANDARD OF PROOF IN CASES INVOLVING EMERGENCY MEDICAL CARE.

In a suit involving a health care liability claim against a physician or health

care provider for injury to or death of a patient arising out of the provision

of emergency medical care in a hospital emergency department or obstetrical unit

or in a surgical suite immediately following the evaluation or treatment of a

patient in a hospital emergency department, the claimant bringing the suit may

prove that the treatment or lack of treatment by the physician or health care

provider departed from accepted standards of medical care or health care only if

the claimant shows by a preponderance of the evidence that the physician or

health care provider, with willful and wanton negligence, deviated from the

degree of care and skill that is reasonably expected of an ordinarily prudent

physician or health care provider in the same or similar circumstances.

§ 74.154. JURY INSTRUCTIONS IN CASES INVOLVING EMERGENCY MEDICAL CARE. (a) In

an action for damages that involves a claim of negligence arising from the

provision of emergency medical care in a hospital emergency department or

obstetrical unit or in a surgical suite immediately following the evaluation or

treatment of a patient in a hospital emergency department, the court shall

instruct the jury to consider, together with all other relevant matters:

(1) whether the person providing care did or did not have the patient's medical

history or was able or unable to obtain a full medical history, including the

knowledge of preexisting medical conditions, allergies, and medications;

(2) the presence or lack of a preexisting physician-patient relationship or

health care provider-patient relationship;

(3) the circumstances constituting the emergency; and

(4) the circumstances surrounding the delivery of the emergency medical care.

( The provisions of Subsection (a) do not apply to medical care or treatment:

(1) that occurs after the patient is stabilized and is capable of receiving

medical treatment as a non-emergency patient;

(2) that is unrelated to the original medical emergency; or

(3) that is related to an emergency caused in whole or in part by the

negligence of the defendant.

Keep in mind; you’re talking Civil Damages when you say the Good Samaritan Law.

This simply means if sued, you can claim this as a defense. This does not mean

that you can’t be prosecuted by the DA for an act or censured by DSHS for acting

outside your certification. Don’t confuse criminal acts or omissions with civil

liability. They are completely different things, remember OJ????

Tater

salvador capuchino wrote: A question for those of you

familiar with fire

department based FROs. I was recently told that as a

volunteer ff I cannot treat a patient. I was told

that the FD needs to be registered as an FRO and have

an agreement with the EMS company who transports.

This area the FD covers is around 10 miles from a

hospital, however some areas are even further. It is

considered a rural area. The EMS service complained

about Albuterol being administered to a patient having

an asthma attack by a medic who is a volunteer ff and

a medic with another company. It was recognized that

the pt was having a severe asthma attack, and a ff who

has a child with asthma routinely carries oxygen,

nebulizers and Albuterol just in case. Would this not

fall under Good Samaritan laws based on the fact that

anyone who has been around asthma sufferers would

recognize and attack and know to give a treatment if

available?

Also does a person who is teaching ff classes on

training day at the FD required to have a fire

specific instructor cert or can it also be EMS or PD?

Salvador Capuchino Jr

EMT-Paramedic/Volunteer FF

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Okay Tateer, out of all the responses, yours akes the

most sense. Now I am worried about this issue because

we respond to all MVCs in the area, so this means that

we shouldn't even be placing patients on SMR because

the common lay person is not trained in this. As for

AEDs, we have training in using them, but no

protocols, therefore, should we be using them? There

are aot of FDs here in the Valley that carry AEDs and

are not registered as FROs, so I guess the liability

here falls with the cities?

Salvador Capuchino Jr

EMT-P/Volunteer FF

--- " E. Tate " wrote:

> Sal,

>

> As a Volunteer FF you can treat patients. You can

> provide anything that the common layperson can

> provide even in the absence of a FR agreement or

> protocols. There is no requirement that your FD be

> a registered FRO to provide treatment or other

> medical interventions. EMT’s and Paramedics are not

> autonomous so you must have some type of medical

> oversight to provide specialized treatments.

>

> In order to be able to provide these specialized

> treatments (those that the common layperson can not

> provide) you must have protocols to operate under.

> So, the way I see it you have 4 options.

>

> Option 1: Your employer provides you with written

> permission to operate under their protocols at all

> times, even if off duty.

>

> Option 2: Your Volunteer FD is a registered FRO

> and has protocols from a licensed EMS agency that

> services your area to operate under their protocols.

>

>

> Option 3: Your Volunteer FD has a written FR

> agreement (even in the absence of being a registered

> FRO) to operate under their protocols.

>

> Option 4: Your Volunteer FD contracts with a

> medical director and they provide protocols for you

> to operate under.

>

> I can’t think of another situation but I might

> have missed one. Albuterol is a prescription

> medication, and is not available to the common lay

> person. Therefore, it can not be administered

> without a protocol in place to allow such

> administration. This would be no different than

> administering oxygen, intubating, cardioverting,

> starting an IV, administering morphine, or any other

> skill that required a physician’s oversight.

>

> If you can go as a lay person to the local Red

> Cross office and take a class on first aid and learn

> a treatment, (bandaging & splinting, bleeding

> control, shock prevention, etc) then you can do it

> without a protocol in place. Otherwise, pick an

> option above or formulate one that provides a

> written binding agreement between you as a FD FR and

> some medical control entity.

>

>

> As for the Good Samaritan Law: The Texas Civil

> Practice & Remedies Code Chapter 74

>

>

>

> Subsection 74.152. UNLICENSED MEDICAL PERSONNEL.

> Persons not licensed or certified in the healing

> arts who in good faith administer emergency care as

> emergency medical service personnel are not liable

> in civil damages for an act performed in

> administering the care unless the act is willfully

> or wantonly negligent. This section applies without

> regard to whether the care is provided for or in

> expectation of remuneration.

>

> Subsection 74.153. STANDARD OF PROOF IN CASES

> INVOLVING EMERGENCY MEDICAL CARE. In a suit

> involving a health care liability claim against a

> physician or health care provider for injury to or

> death of a patient arising out of the provision of

> emergency medical care in a hospital emergency

> department or obstetrical unit or in a surgical

> suite immediately following the evaluation or

> treatment of a patient in a hospital emergency

> department, the claimant bringing the suit may prove

> that the treatment or lack of treatment by the

> physician or health care provider departed from

> accepted standards of medical care or health care

> only if the claimant shows by a preponderance of the

> evidence that the physician or health care provider,

> with willful and wanton negligence, deviated from

> the degree of care and skill that is reasonably

> expected of an ordinarily prudent physician or

> health care provider in the same or similar

> circumstances.

>

> § 74.154. JURY INSTRUCTIONS IN CASES INVOLVING

> EMERGENCY MEDICAL CARE. (a) In an action for

> damages that involves a claim of negligence arising

> from the provision of emergency medical care in a

> hospital emergency department or obstetrical unit or

> in a surgical suite immediately following the

> evaluation or treatment of a patient in a hospital

> emergency department, the court shall instruct the

> jury to consider, together with all other relevant

> matters:

>

> (1) whether the person providing care did or did

> not have the patient's medical history or was able

> or unable to obtain a full medical history,

> including the knowledge of preexisting medical

> conditions, allergies, and medications;

>

> (2) the presence or lack of a preexisting

> physician-patient relationship or health care

> provider-patient relationship;

>

> (3) the circumstances constituting the emergency;

> and

>

> (4) the circumstances surrounding the delivery of

> the emergency medical care.

>

> ( The provisions of Subsection (a) do not apply

> to medical care or treatment:

>

> (1) that occurs after the patient is stabilized and

> is capable of receiving medical treatment as a

> non-emergency patient;

>

> (2) that is unrelated to the original medical

> emergency; or

>

> (3) that is related to an emergency caused in whole

> or in part by the negligence of the defendant.

>

>

>

> Keep in mind; you’re talking Civil Damages when you

> say the Good Samaritan Law. This simply means if

> sued, you can claim this as a defense. This does

> not mean that you can’t be prosecuted by the DA for

> an act or censured by DSHS for acting outside your

> certification. Don’t confuse criminal acts or

> omissions with civil liability. They are completely

> different things, remember OJ????

>

>

> Tater

>

>

> salvador capuchino wrote: A

> question for those of you familiar with fire

> department based FROs. I was recently told that as

> a

> volunteer ff I cannot treat a patient. I was told

> that the FD needs to be registered as an FRO and

> have

> an agreement with the EMS company who transports.

> This area the FD covers is around 10 miles from a

> hospital, however some areas are even further. It

> is

> considered a rural area. The EMS service complained

> about Albuterol being administered to a patient

> having

> an asthma attack by a medic who is a volunteer ff

> and

> a medic with another company. It was recognized

> that

> the pt was having a severe asthma attack, and a ff

> who

> has a child with asthma routinely carries oxygen,

> nebulizers and Albuterol just in case. Would this

> not

> fall under Good Samaritan laws based on the fact

> that

> anyone who has been around asthma sufferers would

> recognize and attack and know to give a treatment if

> available?

> Also does a person who is teaching ff classes on

> training day at the FD required to have a fire

> specific instructor cert or can it also be EMS or

> PD?

>

> Salvador Capuchino Jr

> EMT-Paramedic/Volunteer FF

>

>

>

> __________________________________________________

>

[Guest guest]

Okay Tateer, out of all the responses, yours akes the

most sense. Now I am worried about this issue because

we respond to all MVCs in the area, so this means that

we shouldn't even be placing patients on SMR because

the common lay person is not trained in this. As for

AEDs, we have training in using them, but no

protocols, therefore, should we be using them? There

are aot of FDs here in the Valley that carry AEDs and

are not registered as FROs, so I guess the liability

here falls with the cities?

Salvador Capuchino Jr

EMT-P/Volunteer FF

--- " E. Tate " wrote:

> Sal,

>

> As a Volunteer FF you can treat patients. You can

> provide anything that the common layperson can

> provide even in the absence of a FR agreement or

> protocols. There is no requirement that your FD be

> a registered FRO to provide treatment or other

> medical interventions. EMT’s and Paramedics are not

> autonomous so you must have some type of medical

> oversight to provide specialized treatments.

>

> In order to be able to provide these specialized

> treatments (those that the common layperson can not

> provide) you must have protocols to operate under.

> So, the way I see it you have 4 options.

>

> Option 1: Your employer provides you with written

> permission to operate under their protocols at all

> times, even if off duty.

>

> Option 2: Your Volunteer FD is a registered FRO

> and has protocols from a licensed EMS agency that

> services your area to operate under their protocols.

>

>

> Option 3: Your Volunteer FD has a written FR

> agreement (even in the absence of being a registered

> FRO) to operate under their protocols.

>

> Option 4: Your Volunteer FD contracts with a

> medical director and they provide protocols for you

> to operate under.

>

> I can’t think of another situation but I might

> have missed one. Albuterol is a prescription

> medication, and is not available to the common lay

> person. Therefore, it can not be administered

> without a protocol in place to allow such

> administration. This would be no different than

> administering oxygen, intubating, cardioverting,

> starting an IV, administering morphine, or any other

> skill that required a physician’s oversight.

>

> If you can go as a lay person to the local Red

> Cross office and take a class on first aid and learn

> a treatment, (bandaging & splinting, bleeding

> control, shock prevention, etc) then you can do it

> without a protocol in place. Otherwise, pick an

> option above or formulate one that provides a

> written binding agreement between you as a FD FR and

> some medical control entity.

>

>

> As for the Good Samaritan Law: The Texas Civil

> Practice & Remedies Code Chapter 74

>

>

>

> Subsection 74.152. UNLICENSED MEDICAL PERSONNEL.

> Persons not licensed or certified in the healing

> arts who in good faith administer emergency care as

> emergency medical service personnel are not liable

> in civil damages for an act performed in

> administering the care unless the act is willfully

> or wantonly negligent. This section applies without

> regard to whether the care is provided for or in

> expectation of remuneration.

>

> Subsection 74.153. STANDARD OF PROOF IN CASES

> INVOLVING EMERGENCY MEDICAL CARE. In a suit

> involving a health care liability claim against a

> physician or health care provider for injury to or

> death of a patient arising out of the provision of

> emergency medical care in a hospital emergency

> department or obstetrical unit or in a surgical

> suite immediately following the evaluation or

> treatment of a patient in a hospital emergency

> department, the claimant bringing the suit may prove

> that the treatment or lack of treatment by the

> physician or health care provider departed from

> accepted standards of medical care or health care

> only if the claimant shows by a preponderance of the

> evidence that the physician or health care provider,

> with willful and wanton negligence, deviated from

> the degree of care and skill that is reasonably

> expected of an ordinarily prudent physician or

> health care provider in the same or similar

> circumstances.

>

> § 74.154. JURY INSTRUCTIONS IN CASES INVOLVING

> EMERGENCY MEDICAL CARE. (a) In an action for

> damages that involves a claim of negligence arising

> from the provision of emergency medical care in a

> hospital emergency department or obstetrical unit or

> in a surgical suite immediately following the

> evaluation or treatment of a patient in a hospital

> emergency department, the court shall instruct the

> jury to consider, together with all other relevant

> matters:

>

> (1) whether the person providing care did or did

> not have the patient's medical history or was able

> or unable to obtain a full medical history,

> including the knowledge of preexisting medical

> conditions, allergies, and medications;

>

> (2) the presence or lack of a preexisting

> physician-patient relationship or health care

> provider-patient relationship;

>

> (3) the circumstances constituting the emergency;

> and

>

> (4) the circumstances surrounding the delivery of

> the emergency medical care.

>

> ( The provisions of Subsection (a) do not apply

> to medical care or treatment:

>

> (1) that occurs after the patient is stabilized and

> is capable of receiving medical treatment as a

> non-emergency patient;

>

> (2) that is unrelated to the original medical

> emergency; or

>

> (3) that is related to an emergency caused in whole

> or in part by the negligence of the defendant.

>

>

>

> Keep in mind; you’re talking Civil Damages when you

> say the Good Samaritan Law. This simply means if

> sued, you can claim this as a defense. This does

> not mean that you can’t be prosecuted by the DA for

> an act or censured by DSHS for acting outside your

> certification. Don’t confuse criminal acts or

> omissions with civil liability. They are completely

> different things, remember OJ????

>

>

> Tater

>

>

> salvador capuchino wrote: A

> question for those of you familiar with fire

> department based FROs. I was recently told that as

> a

> volunteer ff I cannot treat a patient. I was told

> that the FD needs to be registered as an FRO and

> have

> an agreement with the EMS company who transports.

> This area the FD covers is around 10 miles from a

> hospital, however some areas are even further. It

> is

> considered a rural area. The EMS service complained

> about Albuterol being administered to a patient

> having

> an asthma attack by a medic who is a volunteer ff

> and

> a medic with another company. It was recognized

> that

> the pt was having a severe asthma attack, and a ff

> who

> has a child with asthma routinely carries oxygen,

> nebulizers and Albuterol just in case. Would this

> not

> fall under Good Samaritan laws based on the fact

> that

> anyone who has been around asthma sufferers would

> recognize and attack and know to give a treatment if

> available?

> Also does a person who is teaching ff classes on

> training day at the FD required to have a fire

> specific instructor cert or can it also be EMS or

> PD?

>

> Salvador Capuchino Jr

> EMT-Paramedic/Volunteer FF

>

>

>

> __________________________________________________

>

[Guest guest]

salvador capuchino wrote:

>

> Albuterol is a BLS med.

This sort of statement really bothers me. Albuterol is not a BLS

med. There is no such thing as a BLS med. Albuterol is an ALS med

that is administered by BLS level providers, but that does not make it

a " BLS med. " Sure, it sounds like simple semantics, but it is not.

Such terms cheapen the seriousness of medication administration.

If you are administering meds, you are practising ALS, regardless of

your level of certification.

Rob

[Guest guest]

salvador capuchino wrote:

>

> Albuterol is a BLS med.

This sort of statement really bothers me. Albuterol is not a BLS

med. There is no such thing as a BLS med. Albuterol is an ALS med

that is administered by BLS level providers, but that does not make it

a " BLS med. " Sure, it sounds like simple semantics, but it is not.

Such terms cheapen the seriousness of medication administration.

If you are administering meds, you are practising ALS, regardless of

your level of certification.

Rob

[Guest guest]

The common layperson can use an AED, and even purchase one without a

prescription now. So, if you carry one, you can use it, if trained to do so.

Bruce

________________________________________________________________________

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