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You need to file a complaint, formal complaint against the employer. If the

" shady " EMS providers are getting away with this, then others will try. They do

this so that OT does not have to be paid, and this is one reason that EMS

personnel are looking at other jobs. We want to be paid for the hours that we

work, including OT and not " shafted " by these providers. In the Dallas area,

this is the only provider that I know of that does this. One other tried it

before, but has since changed their pay structure and now they pay OT.

Wayne

Peggy ey wrote:

This is true, but convince employers of that to classify you different. I have

been paid so many different ways to get out of paying OT it would be funny if it

was not me and I did not have to agree to it to have or keep a job in EMS. The

next thing is to convince the Dept of Labor of this - I have had conversations

with them about a couple of jobs - no help there either

Peggy S.

wrote:

This subject gets me going.

I read in someone else's about EMS staff being classified as " professional

staff "

EMS staff are NOT " professional staff " .

A " professional staff " is someone such as a president, vice-president, doctor,

attorney, CPA, etc. A " professional staff " is someone who make their own hours.

A " professional staff " is NOT someone who is scheduled to work an 8am to 8pm

shift on an ambulance this Friday.

For further information on " professional staff " go to the link below.

http://www.twc.state.tx.us/news/efte/duties_tests.html

A list of those that exempt from over time are at the link below. And I bet you

EMS staff are not on the list.

http://www.twc.state.tx.us/news/efte/exemptions_from_overtime_only.html

For information on Texas Payday law and Fair Labor Act go to the lick below.

http://www.twc.state.tx.us/ui/lablaw/lablaw.html

For someone who is wanting to get back overtime wages due to them check out

these guys. But, TWC is free. I will post a few other attorney

http://www.cbandco.com/labor.html

If you are working over 40 hours and are not getting paid overtime you are being

cheated. Don't get cheated out of wages contact someone today and get the money

you deserve.

I believe everyone in EMS works hard for what we do. We are EMS and damit give

me my money.

Pay Question

>

>

> I recently talked with a private service about a

> position and was told that they pay salary, and that

> they pay EMS personnel shift pay, as they classify

> everyone as " professional staff " . My question is

> this still legal? I know that by paying like this,

> they can work you as many hrs as they wish and still

> pay the same amount.

>

> Thanks,

> Wayne

>

>

> ---------------------------------

> Yahoo! FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in

> one click.

>

> [Non-text portions of this message have been

> removed]

>

>

>

>

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Lets say you and I open an ambulance company. We work our employees on varying

schedules where they may work 36, 40 or 48 hours of " scheduled " time...by

schedule, without any late calls, extra shifts, etc...and to make sure we can

cover all these shifts, we pay you a weekly salary of $400. By FLSA, we do pay

you anything over 40 hours at 1.5 your hourly rate for that week.....

So, you work the 36 hours, you get $400 at an hourly rate of $11.11 an hour...

You work the 40 hours, you get $400 at an hourly rate of $10.00...

You work the 48 hours, you get paid $433.33 at an hourly rate of $8.33...

It is clearly described in the FLSA regs regarding flexible schedules, etc....I

can pay a salary...you are correct...I just can't NOT pay OT over 40...

It may be semantics...but many agencies will tell people that they are getting a

salary...and folks who don't understand the rules and laws, much less payroll

procedures, (both mgmt and line folks) get it all confused...

BTW, the union contract can't supercede FLSA...you can pay OT sooner than FLSA

dictates...but not later....

Dudley

Re: Pay Question

Dudley

Give me one example?

Pay Question

I recently talked with a private service about a position and was told that

they pay salary, and that they pay EMS personnel shift pay, as they classify

everyone as " professional staff " . My question is this still legal? I know

that

by paying like this, they can work you as many hrs as they wish and still pay

the same amount.

Thanks,

Wayne

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Great examples Jack...do you find the fixed salary discussion to be extremly

confusing for folks if you don't have a dry erase board in front of them to draw

it out on? I have the hardest time explaining that to our employees...they see

the pay chart and they see they are making that or better...but how we get there

can get very confusing...

Dudley

Re: Pay Question

I'll try a few...

29 CFR 778.114 - Fixed salary for fluctuating hours.

Overview... employee and employer have an agreement for a 'fixed' salary per

week, regardless of the number of hours worked. When the employee works over 40

per week, the weekly salary is divided by the total number of hours worked,

giving you the weekly hourly rate. All hours over 40 will recieve the

'half-time' premium for the overtime rate.

Example. Weekly Salary = $400

Employe works 60 hours in a week. Divide 400 by 60, weekly hourly rate is 6.67

per hour. The employee is on salary for $400 for all hours worked, but receives

the half time premium for 20 hours. 20 hours x 3.34 per hour.

Total weekly pay 466.80.

29 CFR 553.210 - Fire protection activities.

Cross Trained Firefigheter/EMT's may work any established and regularly

recurring period of work which, under the terms of the Act and legislative

history, cannot be less than 7 consecutive days nor more than 28 consecutive

days.

You do not have to have a 'contract' to apply this exemption.

29 C.F.R. 785.22 Sleep Time

If an employee is on duty for a shift of 24 hours or more, the employer and

employee may agree to exclude from hours worked the time spent in meal breaks

and in " bona fide regularly scheduled sleeping periods " , but there is a limit of

eight hours on the amount of time that can be excluded as sleeping time. Note

that the courts have ruled that the agreement can be 'implied' and not in

writing.

Jack Pitcock

EMS Division Manager

Baytown Health Department EMS

wrote:Dudley

Give me one example?

Pay Question

I recently talked with a private service about a position and was told that

they pay salary, and that they pay EMS personnel shift pay, as they classify

everyone as " professional staff " . My question is this still legal? I know

that

by paying like this, they can work you as many hrs as they wish and still pay

the same amount.

Thanks,

Wayne

---------------------------------

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Great examples Jack...do you find the fixed salary discussion to be extremly

confusing for folks if you don't have a dry erase board in front of them to draw

it out on? I have the hardest time explaining that to our employees...they see

the pay chart and they see they are making that or better...but how we get there

can get very confusing...

Dudley

Re: Pay Question

I'll try a few...

29 CFR 778.114 - Fixed salary for fluctuating hours.

Overview... employee and employer have an agreement for a 'fixed' salary per

week, regardless of the number of hours worked. When the employee works over 40

per week, the weekly salary is divided by the total number of hours worked,

giving you the weekly hourly rate. All hours over 40 will recieve the

'half-time' premium for the overtime rate.

Example. Weekly Salary = $400

Employe works 60 hours in a week. Divide 400 by 60, weekly hourly rate is 6.67

per hour. The employee is on salary for $400 for all hours worked, but receives

the half time premium for 20 hours. 20 hours x 3.34 per hour.

Total weekly pay 466.80.

29 CFR 553.210 - Fire protection activities.

Cross Trained Firefigheter/EMT's may work any established and regularly

recurring period of work which, under the terms of the Act and legislative

history, cannot be less than 7 consecutive days nor more than 28 consecutive

days.

You do not have to have a 'contract' to apply this exemption.

29 C.F.R. 785.22 Sleep Time

If an employee is on duty for a shift of 24 hours or more, the employer and

employee may agree to exclude from hours worked the time spent in meal breaks

and in " bona fide regularly scheduled sleeping periods " , but there is a limit of

eight hours on the amount of time that can be excluded as sleeping time. Note

that the courts have ruled that the agreement can be 'implied' and not in

writing.

Jack Pitcock

EMS Division Manager

Baytown Health Department EMS

wrote:Dudley

Give me one example?

Pay Question

I recently talked with a private service about a position and was told that

they pay salary, and that they pay EMS personnel shift pay, as they classify

everyone as " professional staff " . My question is this still legal? I know

that

by paying like this, they can work you as many hrs as they wish and still pay

the same amount.

Thanks,

Wayne

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,

No employee who does not meet the exempt tests can agree to not get overtime.

FF's can be under an exemption that OT is not paid at 40 in a week but on

another scale (usually more than 216 in 28 days)...as can police officers...

You or your union cannot sign a piece of paper stating it is okay to not get OT

over 40 hours (or according to the public safety exemptions I noted above)...

Dudley

Re: Pay Question

jack

In your example you mentioned that the employee and employer have an

" agreement " , In a TWC hearing, if you have ever attended one. If there is a

verbal or written agreement between two parties including an employer and

employee for xyz dollars per week for xyz hours worked.

An agreement will supersede any TWCs rules, unless there is a breach in the

agreement by either the employer or the employee.

Besides I was speaking on behalf of those that are not exempt from overtime.

According to TWC fire protection service is exempt from overtime.

In addition, I believe in your case you DO pay overtime for any hours WORKED

over 40.

Pay Question

I recently talked with a private service about a position and was told

that

they pay salary, and that they pay EMS personnel shift pay, as they classify

everyone as " professional staff " . My question is this still legal? I know

that

by paying like this, they can work you as many hrs as they wish and still

pay

the same amount.

Thanks,

Wayne

---------------------------------

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,

No employee who does not meet the exempt tests can agree to not get overtime.

FF's can be under an exemption that OT is not paid at 40 in a week but on

another scale (usually more than 216 in 28 days)...as can police officers...

You or your union cannot sign a piece of paper stating it is okay to not get OT

over 40 hours (or according to the public safety exemptions I noted above)...

Dudley

Re: Pay Question

jack

In your example you mentioned that the employee and employer have an

" agreement " , In a TWC hearing, if you have ever attended one. If there is a

verbal or written agreement between two parties including an employer and

employee for xyz dollars per week for xyz hours worked.

An agreement will supersede any TWCs rules, unless there is a breach in the

agreement by either the employer or the employee.

Besides I was speaking on behalf of those that are not exempt from overtime.

According to TWC fire protection service is exempt from overtime.

In addition, I believe in your case you DO pay overtime for any hours WORKED

over 40.

Pay Question

I recently talked with a private service about a position and was told

that

they pay salary, and that they pay EMS personnel shift pay, as they classify

everyone as " professional staff " . My question is this still legal? I know

that

by paying like this, they can work you as many hrs as they wish and still

pay

the same amount.

Thanks,

Wayne

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Hi Dudley...

If you go beyond a fixed hourly rate and a 40 hour a week schedule, there needs

to be a LOT of discussion, charts, visual aids for employees (and some

managers). Even then, there's usually a lot of confusion about pay rates,

overtime triggers, etc. What compounds it even more is when you have employees

from different services trying to compare pay rates, schedules and pay methods.

Even the 'traditional' 24/48 has it's issues. As an example, if an employee

takes a week's vacation, how many hours does he get paid? AND at what rate.

The 1 1/2 trigger is for all WORKED hours over 40. If the employee is off...

does he get paid 40 hours regular, 16 hours straight time overtime (he's not on

duty, therefore it's not worked time)? Does he even get any overtime at all??

We've resorted to charts, graphs, and even spreadsheets where the employee can

punch in their hours worked and rate to compute their regular time, straight

time OT, and 1 1/2 time OT and we STILL get questions.

Jack Pitcock

THEDUDMAN@... wrote:

Great examples Jack...do you find the fixed salary discussion to be extremly

confusing for folks if you don't have a dry erase board in front of them to draw

it out on? I have the hardest time explaining that to our employees...they see

the pay chart and they see they are making that or better...but how we get there

can get very confusing...

Dudley

Re: Pay Question

I'll try a few...

29 CFR 778.114 - Fixed salary for fluctuating hours.

Overview... employee and employer have an agreement for a 'fixed' salary per

week, regardless of the number of hours worked. When the employee works over 40

per week, the weekly salary is divided by the total number of hours worked,

giving you the weekly hourly rate. All hours over 40 will recieve the

'half-time' premium for the overtime rate.

Example. Weekly Salary = $400

Employe works 60 hours in a week. Divide 400 by 60, weekly hourly rate is 6.67

per hour. The employee is on salary for $400 for all hours worked, but receives

the half time premium for 20 hours. 20 hours x 3.34 per hour.

Total weekly pay 466.80.

29 CFR 553.210 - Fire protection activities.

Cross Trained Firefigheter/EMT's may work any established and regularly

recurring period of work which, under the terms of the Act and legislative

history, cannot be less than 7 consecutive days nor more than 28 consecutive

days.

You do not have to have a 'contract' to apply this exemption.

29 C.F.R. 785.22 Sleep Time

If an employee is on duty for a shift of 24 hours or more, the employer and

employee may agree to exclude from hours worked the time spent in meal breaks

and in " bona fide regularly scheduled sleeping periods " , but there is a limit of

eight hours on the amount of time that can be excluded as sleeping time. Note

that the courts have ruled that the agreement can be 'implied' and not in

writing.

Jack Pitcock

EMS Division Manager

Baytown Health Department EMS

wrote:Dudley

Give me one example?

Pay Question

I recently talked with a private service about a position and was told that

they pay salary, and that they pay EMS personnel shift pay, as they classify

everyone as " professional staff " . My question is this still legal? I know

that

by paying like this, they can work you as many hrs as they wish and still pay

the same amount.

Thanks,

Wayne

---------------------------------

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Hi Dudley...

If you go beyond a fixed hourly rate and a 40 hour a week schedule, there needs

to be a LOT of discussion, charts, visual aids for employees (and some

managers). Even then, there's usually a lot of confusion about pay rates,

overtime triggers, etc. What compounds it even more is when you have employees

from different services trying to compare pay rates, schedules and pay methods.

Even the 'traditional' 24/48 has it's issues. As an example, if an employee

takes a week's vacation, how many hours does he get paid? AND at what rate.

The 1 1/2 trigger is for all WORKED hours over 40. If the employee is off...

does he get paid 40 hours regular, 16 hours straight time overtime (he's not on

duty, therefore it's not worked time)? Does he even get any overtime at all??

We've resorted to charts, graphs, and even spreadsheets where the employee can

punch in their hours worked and rate to compute their regular time, straight

time OT, and 1 1/2 time OT and we STILL get questions.

Jack Pitcock

THEDUDMAN@... wrote:

Great examples Jack...do you find the fixed salary discussion to be extremly

confusing for folks if you don't have a dry erase board in front of them to draw

it out on? I have the hardest time explaining that to our employees...they see

the pay chart and they see they are making that or better...but how we get there

can get very confusing...

Dudley

Re: Pay Question

I'll try a few...

29 CFR 778.114 - Fixed salary for fluctuating hours.

Overview... employee and employer have an agreement for a 'fixed' salary per

week, regardless of the number of hours worked. When the employee works over 40

per week, the weekly salary is divided by the total number of hours worked,

giving you the weekly hourly rate. All hours over 40 will recieve the

'half-time' premium for the overtime rate.

Example. Weekly Salary = $400

Employe works 60 hours in a week. Divide 400 by 60, weekly hourly rate is 6.67

per hour. The employee is on salary for $400 for all hours worked, but receives

the half time premium for 20 hours. 20 hours x 3.34 per hour.

Total weekly pay 466.80.

29 CFR 553.210 - Fire protection activities.

Cross Trained Firefigheter/EMT's may work any established and regularly

recurring period of work which, under the terms of the Act and legislative

history, cannot be less than 7 consecutive days nor more than 28 consecutive

days.

You do not have to have a 'contract' to apply this exemption.

29 C.F.R. 785.22 Sleep Time

If an employee is on duty for a shift of 24 hours or more, the employer and

employee may agree to exclude from hours worked the time spent in meal breaks

and in " bona fide regularly scheduled sleeping periods " , but there is a limit of

eight hours on the amount of time that can be excluded as sleeping time. Note

that the courts have ruled that the agreement can be 'implied' and not in

writing.

Jack Pitcock

EMS Division Manager

Baytown Health Department EMS

wrote:Dudley

Give me one example?

Pay Question

I recently talked with a private service about a position and was told that

they pay salary, and that they pay EMS personnel shift pay, as they classify

everyone as " professional staff " . My question is this still legal? I know

that

by paying like this, they can work you as many hrs as they wish and still pay

the same amount.

Thanks,

Wayne

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Given Dudley's examples, how can you be surprised?

>

>

> If you go beyond a fixed hourly rate and a 40 hour a week schedule, there

needs to be a LOT of discussion, charts, visual aids for employees (and

some managers). Even then, there's usually a lot of confusion about pay

rates, overtime triggers, etc.

>

> We've resorted to charts, graphs, and even spreadsheets where the

employee can punch in their hours worked and rate to compute their regular

time, straight time OT, and 1 1/2 time OT and we STILL get questions.

>

Dudley gave an example of $400 salary a week for FT, where an employee gets

$400 for 36 hours, or $400 for 40 hours, but $433 for 48 hours. If you can

do this, why bother to even have 36- & 40-hour weeks, except on paper? You

can pay a paramedic (I suppose) $33 for 8 hours " overtime " ? Why wouldn't

you have everyone work 48 hours? Why wouldn't you expect your employees to

kvetch, & not understand?

Conley Harmon

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Given Dudley's examples, how can you be surprised?

>

>

> If you go beyond a fixed hourly rate and a 40 hour a week schedule, there

needs to be a LOT of discussion, charts, visual aids for employees (and

some managers). Even then, there's usually a lot of confusion about pay

rates, overtime triggers, etc.

>

> We've resorted to charts, graphs, and even spreadsheets where the

employee can punch in their hours worked and rate to compute their regular

time, straight time OT, and 1 1/2 time OT and we STILL get questions.

>

Dudley gave an example of $400 salary a week for FT, where an employee gets

$400 for 36 hours, or $400 for 40 hours, but $433 for 48 hours. If you can

do this, why bother to even have 36- & 40-hour weeks, except on paper? You

can pay a paramedic (I suppose) $33 for 8 hours " overtime " ? Why wouldn't

you have everyone work 48 hours? Why wouldn't you expect your employees to

kvetch, & not understand?

Conley Harmon

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Actually... I'm not.

We don't use the Fixed Salary/Flexible hour plan... try to get someone to work

an extra shift.

The challenge for all is to get their employees to understand their schedule and

pay methods, regardless of what they actually are.

Jack

Conley Harmon wrote:

Given Dudley's examples, how can you be surprised?

>

>

> If you go beyond a fixed hourly rate and a 40 hour a week schedule, there

needs to be a LOT of discussion, charts, visual aids for employees (and

some managers). Even then, there's usually a lot of confusion about pay

rates, overtime triggers, etc.

>

> We've resorted to charts, graphs, and even spreadsheets where the

employee can punch in their hours worked and rate to compute their regular

time, straight time OT, and 1 1/2 time OT and we STILL get questions.

>

Dudley gave an example of $400 salary a week for FT, where an employee gets

$400 for 36 hours, or $400 for 40 hours, but $433 for 48 hours. If you can

do this, why bother to even have 36- & 40-hour weeks, except on paper? You

can pay a paramedic (I suppose) $33 for 8 hours " overtime " ? Why wouldn't

you have everyone work 48 hours? Why wouldn't you expect your employees to

kvetch, & not understand?

Conley Harmon

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Share on other sites

Actually... I'm not.

We don't use the Fixed Salary/Flexible hour plan... try to get someone to work

an extra shift.

The challenge for all is to get their employees to understand their schedule and

pay methods, regardless of what they actually are.

Jack

Conley Harmon wrote:

Given Dudley's examples, how can you be surprised?

>

>

> If you go beyond a fixed hourly rate and a 40 hour a week schedule, there

needs to be a LOT of discussion, charts, visual aids for employees (and

some managers). Even then, there's usually a lot of confusion about pay

rates, overtime triggers, etc.

>

> We've resorted to charts, graphs, and even spreadsheets where the

employee can punch in their hours worked and rate to compute their regular

time, straight time OT, and 1 1/2 time OT and we STILL get questions.

>

Dudley gave an example of $400 salary a week for FT, where an employee gets

$400 for 36 hours, or $400 for 40 hours, but $433 for 48 hours. If you can

do this, why bother to even have 36- & 40-hour weeks, except on paper? You

can pay a paramedic (I suppose) $33 for 8 hours " overtime " ? Why wouldn't

you have everyone work 48 hours? Why wouldn't you expect your employees to

kvetch, & not understand?

Conley Harmon

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Share on other sites

Actually... I'm not.

We don't use the Fixed Salary/Flexible hour plan... try to get someone to work

an extra shift.

The challenge for all is to get their employees to understand their schedule and

pay methods, regardless of what they actually are.

Jack

Conley Harmon wrote:

Given Dudley's examples, how can you be surprised?

>

>

> If you go beyond a fixed hourly rate and a 40 hour a week schedule, there

needs to be a LOT of discussion, charts, visual aids for employees (and

some managers). Even then, there's usually a lot of confusion about pay

rates, overtime triggers, etc.

>

> We've resorted to charts, graphs, and even spreadsheets where the

employee can punch in their hours worked and rate to compute their regular

time, straight time OT, and 1 1/2 time OT and we STILL get questions.

>

Dudley gave an example of $400 salary a week for FT, where an employee gets

$400 for 36 hours, or $400 for 40 hours, but $433 for 48 hours. If you can

do this, why bother to even have 36- & 40-hour weeks, except on paper? You

can pay a paramedic (I suppose) $33 for 8 hours " overtime " ? Why wouldn't

you have everyone work 48 hours? Why wouldn't you expect your employees to

kvetch, & not understand?

Conley Harmon

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Conley,

It's actually very simple. In Dudley's example all of his employees make the

same “base salary” of $400 / week. So, if you work a 40 hour week (M-F 8-5)

shift you’re getting $10 / hr. If you work the rotating 12 hour shift (2 on, 2

off, 3 on, 2 off 2 on, 3 off) you work 40 hours 1 week and 32 the other

(depending on the start time of the shift) you make more per hour on paper, but

the base salary still comes to $800 for the 2 week pay period. If you work 24

on 48 off the salary is lower per hour due to the vast numbers of hours you

work, but the check still comes out the same in the end (at least at most

companies, I didn’t understand the extra $33 in Dudley’s scenario).

I personally think that since most companies do a shift bid process based on

seniority there should be an “average salary calculation” ( $ 9.81 / hour in

Dudley’s case). This levels the playing field and reduces contention in the

ranks. It raises the total salary for those working a 24 / 48 (they deserve it,

they give 1/3 of their life to the company). It does reduce the total salary of

the 40 hour week truck (they probably have a higher pay grade than base due to

the number of years on the job - this shift will be the more senior people

probably). If it really bothers you that much, give the 40’s a “shift bonus”.

At least that’s my take on this issue…….

Tater

Conley Harmon wrote:

Given Dudley's examples, how can you be surprised?

>

>

> If you go beyond a fixed hourly rate and a 40 hour a week schedule, there

needs to be a LOT of discussion, charts, visual aids for employees (and

some managers). Even then, there's usually a lot of confusion about pay

rates, overtime triggers, etc.

>

> We've resorted to charts, graphs, and even spreadsheets where the

employee can punch in their hours worked and rate to compute their regular

time, straight time OT, and 1 1/2 time OT and we STILL get questions.

>

Dudley gave an example of $400 salary a week for FT, where an employee gets

$400 for 36 hours, or $400 for 40 hours, but $433 for 48 hours. If you can

do this, why bother to even have 36- & 40-hour weeks, except on paper? You

can pay a paramedic (I suppose) $33 for 8 hours " overtime " ? Why wouldn't

you have everyone work 48 hours? Why wouldn't you expect your employees to

kvetch, & not understand?

Conley Harmon

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Dud man

You are correct....... a company may pay a salary however, guidliness must be

inplace to protect the employer and the employee.

Several ambulance companies in Houston are paying ovetime but are NOT paying in

any extra when hours are far exceeded any AGREED salary.

An example, XYZ ambulance service is paying an EMT 400 hours per week, but the

employee is working 80 plus hours per week. Figure that on a 40 hour work week

and that employee is getting paid below that of minimal wage. That is what is

happening. Dont just read not he surface, read more into it. That is illegal.

Pay Question

I recently talked with a private service about a position and was told

that

they pay salary, and that they pay EMS personnel shift pay, as they classify

everyone as " professional staff " . My question is this still legal? I know

that

by paying like this, they can work you as many hrs as they wish and still

pay

the same amount.

Thanks,

Wayne

---------------------------------

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Dud man

You are correct....... a company may pay a salary however, guidliness must be

inplace to protect the employer and the employee.

Several ambulance companies in Houston are paying ovetime but are NOT paying in

any extra when hours are far exceeded any AGREED salary.

An example, XYZ ambulance service is paying an EMT 400 hours per week, but the

employee is working 80 plus hours per week. Figure that on a 40 hour work week

and that employee is getting paid below that of minimal wage. That is what is

happening. Dont just read not he surface, read more into it. That is illegal.

Pay Question

I recently talked with a private service about a position and was told

that

they pay salary, and that they pay EMS personnel shift pay, as they classify

everyone as " professional staff " . My question is this still legal? I know

that

by paying like this, they can work you as many hrs as they wish and still

pay

the same amount.

Thanks,

Wayne

---------------------------------

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