Re: MedStar answer times suffer due to sick time

[Guest guest]

Henry tells it like it is.

GG

> Gene,

>

> How did you get all of that out of his post?

>

> Ha ha ha ha!   I hadn't even read Dudley's post when I wrote my last one

> about what you do if you decide to seek union representation, and DUDLEY has

> risen

> to the occasion to step right into the character of the manager.

>

> I would suggest this: When and if you decide to follow through with trying

> to get organized,

> Keep Looking Behind You Frequently to see if those that say we are behind

> you all the way are

> still there. When I was younger and dumber, I would march into Bob Koonces

> office and demand

> that he change all the wrongs with the department. I was the elected spokes

> person. As I

> turned to look for my support, they were no where to be found. Of course Bob

> would listen to

> my bluster and then throw me out of the office. He did so not before

> informing me that once

> again the rest of the guys had screwed me once again. As you may have

> guessed I was a slow

> learner and it took more than a few of these meetings before I got the

> message. Of course Bob

> could have fired me but he didn't.

>

> My point is that maybe Dudley was just trying to give the guy a little heads

> up as to what he

> might expect. It amazes me that employees of the mentioned ambulance

> provider can get on this

> list and obviously feel that the list serves as some sort of shield for

> them. Guys if you go

> fishing you don't beat on the side of the boat to let the fish know you are

> there.

>

> Henry

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Having recently survived the unionization process in the company that puts

the groceries on my table, I've seen first hand what both sides do during the

process. First off, it took several years before convincing enough of the

labor force that a union was justified. After several attempts and numerous

votes, the union was voted in by a mere 7 people (out of close to 600 eligible

voters). The company, contrary to the law, made threats, made promises, and

lied through their teeth to coerce the laborers to vote against the union.

The union, made bold promises, painted glowing pictures, etc in an effort to

convince labor to vote for the union. Once the election was confirmed, it

took nearly 3 yrs to get a contract. The contract made a few gains for labor,

primarily in the realm of wages, but the company has chosen to ignore parts of

the agreement that they didn't really agree to. The contract was one

generated by a mediator in a last ditch effort to avoid a strike. The contract

was

ratified over 5 yrs ago and the union and company are in negotiations for a

new contract. Negotiations have been dragging now for over a year and a half

and very little has been agreed to. Another local in the union bargained

for well over 2 yrs before getting a new contract and it took the intervention

of a federal judge to get the company off of the dime and actually negotiate.

As for the contract compelling the company to do things, it does. But the

union or local must challenge the breaches in court, which takes money, LOTS

of money. Where does the money come from? The quick answer is your dues. If

the dues isn't sufficient, then the local can assess its members for more.

If the local doesn't have the bucks, and the parent union can't or won't

front them the money, then you have few options. It boils down to how much you

want to endure before you walk out, assuming that your contract allows such a

remedy.

The bottom line is are you going to be better off with a union? Our company

enjoys better wages, better living conditions and a couple of low key

bennies. The overall relationship has gone from " family " to adversarial.

Where we

used to be able to work things out between managers and worker bees, now we

have an " us vs. them " working relationship, grievance procedures, system

board of adjustments, arbitrators, etc. The company is convinced the union is

going to bankrupt them and the union is convinced that the company is dragging

their feet to keep from granting a new contract.

A first glance, a union seems like a sure cure. I'm not so certain.

Personally, I'd just as soon work for a company that values my skills and

compensates me accordingly, doesn't try to enslave me, and gives me a fair

shake when

the chips are down. Since some companies are so big that they forget the

guys in the trenches, maybe a union is what it takes to wake them up and make

them realize that we are not automatons, that we do have lives outside of the

company, etc.

My advice is to look VERY carefully before you leap.

Kirk

EMT-B

[Guest guest]

Having recently survived the unionization process in the company that puts

the groceries on my table, I've seen first hand what both sides do during the

process. First off, it took several years before convincing enough of the

labor force that a union was justified. After several attempts and numerous

votes, the union was voted in by a mere 7 people (out of close to 600 eligible

voters). The company, contrary to the law, made threats, made promises, and

lied through their teeth to coerce the laborers to vote against the union.

The union, made bold promises, painted glowing pictures, etc in an effort to

convince labor to vote for the union. Once the election was confirmed, it

took nearly 3 yrs to get a contract. The contract made a few gains for labor,

primarily in the realm of wages, but the company has chosen to ignore parts of

the agreement that they didn't really agree to. The contract was one

generated by a mediator in a last ditch effort to avoid a strike. The contract

was

ratified over 5 yrs ago and the union and company are in negotiations for a

new contract. Negotiations have been dragging now for over a year and a half

and very little has been agreed to. Another local in the union bargained

for well over 2 yrs before getting a new contract and it took the intervention

of a federal judge to get the company off of the dime and actually negotiate.

As for the contract compelling the company to do things, it does. But the

union or local must challenge the breaches in court, which takes money, LOTS

of money. Where does the money come from? The quick answer is your dues. If

the dues isn't sufficient, then the local can assess its members for more.

If the local doesn't have the bucks, and the parent union can't or won't

front them the money, then you have few options. It boils down to how much you

want to endure before you walk out, assuming that your contract allows such a

remedy.

The bottom line is are you going to be better off with a union? Our company

enjoys better wages, better living conditions and a couple of low key

bennies. The overall relationship has gone from " family " to adversarial.

Where we

used to be able to work things out between managers and worker bees, now we

have an " us vs. them " working relationship, grievance procedures, system

board of adjustments, arbitrators, etc. The company is convinced the union is

going to bankrupt them and the union is convinced that the company is dragging

their feet to keep from granting a new contract.

A first glance, a union seems like a sure cure. I'm not so certain.

Personally, I'd just as soon work for a company that values my skills and

compensates me accordingly, doesn't try to enslave me, and gives me a fair

shake when

the chips are down. Since some companies are so big that they forget the

guys in the trenches, maybe a union is what it takes to wake them up and make

them realize that we are not automatons, that we do have lives outside of the

company, etc.

My advice is to look VERY carefully before you leap.

Kirk

EMT-B

[Guest guest]

Amen to that Nick. I would encourage everyone to show up at the

meeting and let your opinions be heard. It is the only way to get the

point across. Be active not reactive, and become part of the solution

to the problem by voicing your opinions. Griping and complaining

without action and a show of support get us nowhere constructive.

> Nick Diemicke <njd233@y...> wrote:

> HOPE ALL SHOW TO EITHER THE 0900 meeting on thursday 10/06 or the

1800 one

> on Firday 10/07!! Lets show mgt the troops are tired of being their

> scapegoats!!

> Nick

[Guest guest]

Amen to that Nick. I would encourage everyone to show up at the

meeting and let your opinions be heard. It is the only way to get the

point across. Be active not reactive, and become part of the solution

to the problem by voicing your opinions. Griping and complaining

without action and a show of support get us nowhere constructive.

> Nick Diemicke <njd233@y...> wrote:

> HOPE ALL SHOW TO EITHER THE 0900 meeting on thursday 10/06 or the

1800 one

> on Firday 10/07!! Lets show mgt the troops are tired of being their

> scapegoats!!

> Nick

[Guest guest]

Amen to that Nick. I would encourage everyone to show up at the

meeting and let your opinions be heard. It is the only way to get the

point across. Be active not reactive, and become part of the solution

to the problem by voicing your opinions. Griping and complaining

without action and a show of support get us nowhere constructive.

> Nick Diemicke <njd233@y...> wrote:

> HOPE ALL SHOW TO EITHER THE 0900 meeting on thursday 10/06 or the

1800 one

> on Firday 10/07!! Lets show mgt the troops are tired of being their

> scapegoats!!

> Nick

[Guest guest]

Gene,

My comments had nothing to do with a management role. I personally have no

interest about MedStar or what their employees decide to do...

BUT when I see you paint unionization as the panacea of all ills that face

employees of large or small EMS agencies, I have to state the other side of the

argument.

What do you have to lose? How about money to union dues. How about benefits

that you currently enjoy that may not be included after contract negotiations.

What about a union that does absolutely nothing for the employees except collect

the dues and show up in a non-involved role when an employee is having a serious

discipline issue...watches the process go sideways and pats the employee on the

back telling them " tough luck, good luck in your future " . There is plenty to

lose.

A couple of emails before yours was one from Mike who warned the

employees to avoid a union that has been in that area before...BECAUSE IT DID

NOTHING FOR THE EMPLOYEES!!! What kind of veiled threat was that.

You were the one who said " join up...YOU HAVE NOTHING TO LOSE " . I only was

presenting a counter argument to your blanket statement of unions saving the

world.

If unions are such a great thing...why are the numbers of unionized people in

America falling? Why are unions having less and less political strength?

No matter, more power to anyone who wants to unionize. I have fought it before

when I was not in a leadership role...but not anymore. If the folks want it,

they want it. Go for it. My concern is that in your next email you make a rash

of blanket statements about how " management " is an evil force that we need Luke

Skywalker to come combat...and that they will do anything to " scare " people from

voting for a union...one problem ole wise one...you forgot to mention that UNION

organizers do the same thing.

You are so wise to give advice on what to do when management does things wrong.

For those who are curious, the abbreviation is TIPS. Leadership of the

organization where the employees are trying to unionize CANNOT threaten,

intimidate, promise, or spy. I am educated...I know the laws...and because of

the laws and penalties behind this, any organization that has any training in

labor law will NOT do any of these. The tactics that Gene mentioned are from

the old union days...Gene, seen Jimmy Hoffa lately???

The bad thing is that the folks from Union X that the employees decide to go

with are not forbidden by law from making any wild promises, claims,

enticements, etc. They can promise the world...but remember this...especially

those who think private EMS is evil...unions are money making organizations who

desire to see you organize for the further collection of dues...it is additional

revenue...

The union reps that come in to help you organize and get an election will tell

you how many days off you will get with a union, what kind of benefits you will

get that are better than what you have now...and the biggie...how much more

money you will make...but the truth is that if a union is voted in to represent

the employees, they enter into negotiations with the employer...and those

negotiations start at ZERO...not at where you are today. And, with the

exception of some of the larger, more reputable unions, the first negotiation

point that unions go for is Dues deductions from your paychecks. They want that

because they can't trust the employees to pay their dues regularly...and since

that is their revenue...it is the first big win that they go for. Then...and

only then...will they start to work on making your working conditions better.

And if you vote in a union like the one Mike mentioned, you could go 24 to 36

months before negotiations finish up because the union doesn't see you as a

priority. So, shop carefully....because while these negotiations are

on-going...by law...all employment conditions stay the same...no raises, changes

in benefits, etc.

So, like Gene, if you feel unionization is the best method...then BE VERY

CAREFUL about who you seek out. Don't settle for the first group that comes to

town. Make sure they have experience in Texas, make sure they have experience

in EMS, make sure they have experience in right to work states, and talk to

people not just in the locations they tell you about...but research them and

visit the locations they are in that they DO NOT tell you about.

C'mon Gene...relax a little and don't try to polarize things so much...it

doesn't have to be an us vs. them...even if a union is the path that people

choose. AND, there are always 2 sides to everything...it isn't always the way

you put it because you say so (and yes...the same applies to me .

Dudley

Re: MedStar answer times suffer due to sick time

>

>

> I am a employee at Medstar. What frustrates me is the fact that he

> is more concerned with the bottom line than with patient care! The

> employees at Medstar are overworked, underpaid, under appreciated,

> simply put they are exhausted. And then for all of us to be publicly

> humiliated by our own Exec. Director.

>

> To me having an ambulance where the crew is mentally, emotionally,

> and phsycally exhausted and is more inclined to make mistakes

> regarding pt care and poor bedside mannor, is it better to be down

> one truck or have that truck in service. This is where pt care comes

> in to play.

>

> Another thing that gets me, these people here bust their butts

> because of their love for the job (HELPING PEOPLE) not for the money

> (BELIEVE ME NOT FOR THE MONEY)! If there was a problem, which agreed

> you will have problem children in every company, it should have been

> dealt with professionally and internally, at the very least we

> deserve that.

>

> For this person to think that PUBLICLY DEGRADING your employees will

> make them work any harder is asinine! I for one do not take sick

> time unless I am in fact sick, I work hard and deserve to take that

> time off! Which most if not all of my fellow employees would agree.

> Simply put this is nothing more than a slap in the face for people

> who work hard for their company and invest their time to take care of

> people in need!

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Gene,

My comments had nothing to do with a management role. I personally have no

interest about MedStar or what their employees decide to do...

BUT when I see you paint unionization as the panacea of all ills that face

employees of large or small EMS agencies, I have to state the other side of the

argument.

What do you have to lose? How about money to union dues. How about benefits

that you currently enjoy that may not be included after contract negotiations.

What about a union that does absolutely nothing for the employees except collect

the dues and show up in a non-involved role when an employee is having a serious

discipline issue...watches the process go sideways and pats the employee on the

back telling them " tough luck, good luck in your future " . There is plenty to

lose.

A couple of emails before yours was one from Mike who warned the

employees to avoid a union that has been in that area before...BECAUSE IT DID

NOTHING FOR THE EMPLOYEES!!! What kind of veiled threat was that.

You were the one who said " join up...YOU HAVE NOTHING TO LOSE " . I only was

presenting a counter argument to your blanket statement of unions saving the

world.

If unions are such a great thing...why are the numbers of unionized people in

America falling? Why are unions having less and less political strength?

No matter, more power to anyone who wants to unionize. I have fought it before

when I was not in a leadership role...but not anymore. If the folks want it,

they want it. Go for it. My concern is that in your next email you make a rash

of blanket statements about how " management " is an evil force that we need Luke

Skywalker to come combat...and that they will do anything to " scare " people from

voting for a union...one problem ole wise one...you forgot to mention that UNION

organizers do the same thing.

You are so wise to give advice on what to do when management does things wrong.

For those who are curious, the abbreviation is TIPS. Leadership of the

organization where the employees are trying to unionize CANNOT threaten,

intimidate, promise, or spy. I am educated...I know the laws...and because of

the laws and penalties behind this, any organization that has any training in

labor law will NOT do any of these. The tactics that Gene mentioned are from

the old union days...Gene, seen Jimmy Hoffa lately???

The bad thing is that the folks from Union X that the employees decide to go

with are not forbidden by law from making any wild promises, claims,

enticements, etc. They can promise the world...but remember this...especially

those who think private EMS is evil...unions are money making organizations who

desire to see you organize for the further collection of dues...it is additional

revenue...

The union reps that come in to help you organize and get an election will tell

you how many days off you will get with a union, what kind of benefits you will

get that are better than what you have now...and the biggie...how much more

money you will make...but the truth is that if a union is voted in to represent

the employees, they enter into negotiations with the employer...and those

negotiations start at ZERO...not at where you are today. And, with the

exception of some of the larger, more reputable unions, the first negotiation

point that unions go for is Dues deductions from your paychecks. They want that

because they can't trust the employees to pay their dues regularly...and since

that is their revenue...it is the first big win that they go for. Then...and

only then...will they start to work on making your working conditions better.

And if you vote in a union like the one Mike mentioned, you could go 24 to 36

months before negotiations finish up because the union doesn't see you as a

priority. So, shop carefully....because while these negotiations are

on-going...by law...all employment conditions stay the same...no raises, changes

in benefits, etc.

So, like Gene, if you feel unionization is the best method...then BE VERY

CAREFUL about who you seek out. Don't settle for the first group that comes to

town. Make sure they have experience in Texas, make sure they have experience

in EMS, make sure they have experience in right to work states, and talk to

people not just in the locations they tell you about...but research them and

visit the locations they are in that they DO NOT tell you about.

C'mon Gene...relax a little and don't try to polarize things so much...it

doesn't have to be an us vs. them...even if a union is the path that people

choose. AND, there are always 2 sides to everything...it isn't always the way

you put it because you say so (and yes...the same applies to me .

Dudley

Re: MedStar answer times suffer due to sick time

>

>

> I am a employee at Medstar. What frustrates me is the fact that he

> is more concerned with the bottom line than with patient care! The

> employees at Medstar are overworked, underpaid, under appreciated,

> simply put they are exhausted. And then for all of us to be publicly

> humiliated by our own Exec. Director.

>

> To me having an ambulance where the crew is mentally, emotionally,

> and phsycally exhausted and is more inclined to make mistakes

> regarding pt care and poor bedside mannor, is it better to be down

> one truck or have that truck in service. This is where pt care comes

> in to play.

>

> Another thing that gets me, these people here bust their butts

> because of their love for the job (HELPING PEOPLE) not for the money

> (BELIEVE ME NOT FOR THE MONEY)! If there was a problem, which agreed

> you will have problem children in every company, it should have been

> dealt with professionally and internally, at the very least we

> deserve that.

>

> For this person to think that PUBLICLY DEGRADING your employees will

> make them work any harder is asinine! I for one do not take sick

> time unless I am in fact sick, I work hard and deserve to take that

> time off! Which most if not all of my fellow employees would agree.

> Simply put this is nothing more than a slap in the face for people

> who work hard for their company and invest their time to take care of

> people in need!

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Gene,

My comments had nothing to do with a management role. I personally have no

interest about MedStar or what their employees decide to do...

BUT when I see you paint unionization as the panacea of all ills that face

employees of large or small EMS agencies, I have to state the other side of the

argument.

What do you have to lose? How about money to union dues. How about benefits

that you currently enjoy that may not be included after contract negotiations.

What about a union that does absolutely nothing for the employees except collect

the dues and show up in a non-involved role when an employee is having a serious

discipline issue...watches the process go sideways and pats the employee on the

back telling them " tough luck, good luck in your future " . There is plenty to

lose.

A couple of emails before yours was one from Mike who warned the

employees to avoid a union that has been in that area before...BECAUSE IT DID

NOTHING FOR THE EMPLOYEES!!! What kind of veiled threat was that.

You were the one who said " join up...YOU HAVE NOTHING TO LOSE " . I only was

presenting a counter argument to your blanket statement of unions saving the

world.

If unions are such a great thing...why are the numbers of unionized people in

America falling? Why are unions having less and less political strength?

No matter, more power to anyone who wants to unionize. I have fought it before

when I was not in a leadership role...but not anymore. If the folks want it,

they want it. Go for it. My concern is that in your next email you make a rash

of blanket statements about how " management " is an evil force that we need Luke

Skywalker to come combat...and that they will do anything to " scare " people from

voting for a union...one problem ole wise one...you forgot to mention that UNION

organizers do the same thing.

You are so wise to give advice on what to do when management does things wrong.

For those who are curious, the abbreviation is TIPS. Leadership of the

organization where the employees are trying to unionize CANNOT threaten,

intimidate, promise, or spy. I am educated...I know the laws...and because of

the laws and penalties behind this, any organization that has any training in

labor law will NOT do any of these. The tactics that Gene mentioned are from

the old union days...Gene, seen Jimmy Hoffa lately???

The bad thing is that the folks from Union X that the employees decide to go

with are not forbidden by law from making any wild promises, claims,

enticements, etc. They can promise the world...but remember this...especially

those who think private EMS is evil...unions are money making organizations who

desire to see you organize for the further collection of dues...it is additional

revenue...

The union reps that come in to help you organize and get an election will tell

you how many days off you will get with a union, what kind of benefits you will

get that are better than what you have now...and the biggie...how much more

money you will make...but the truth is that if a union is voted in to represent

the employees, they enter into negotiations with the employer...and those

negotiations start at ZERO...not at where you are today. And, with the

exception of some of the larger, more reputable unions, the first negotiation

point that unions go for is Dues deductions from your paychecks. They want that

because they can't trust the employees to pay their dues regularly...and since

that is their revenue...it is the first big win that they go for. Then...and

only then...will they start to work on making your working conditions better.

And if you vote in a union like the one Mike mentioned, you could go 24 to 36

months before negotiations finish up because the union doesn't see you as a

priority. So, shop carefully....because while these negotiations are

on-going...by law...all employment conditions stay the same...no raises, changes

in benefits, etc.

So, like Gene, if you feel unionization is the best method...then BE VERY

CAREFUL about who you seek out. Don't settle for the first group that comes to

town. Make sure they have experience in Texas, make sure they have experience

in EMS, make sure they have experience in right to work states, and talk to

people not just in the locations they tell you about...but research them and

visit the locations they are in that they DO NOT tell you about.

C'mon Gene...relax a little and don't try to polarize things so much...it

doesn't have to be an us vs. them...even if a union is the path that people

choose. AND, there are always 2 sides to everything...it isn't always the way

you put it because you say so (and yes...the same applies to me .

Dudley

Re: MedStar answer times suffer due to sick time

>

>

> I am a employee at Medstar. What frustrates me is the fact that he

> is more concerned with the bottom line than with patient care! The

> employees at Medstar are overworked, underpaid, under appreciated,

> simply put they are exhausted. And then for all of us to be publicly

> humiliated by our own Exec. Director.

>

> To me having an ambulance where the crew is mentally, emotionally,

> and phsycally exhausted and is more inclined to make mistakes

> regarding pt care and poor bedside mannor, is it better to be down

> one truck or have that truck in service. This is where pt care comes

> in to play.

>

> Another thing that gets me, these people here bust their butts

> because of their love for the job (HELPING PEOPLE) not for the money

> (BELIEVE ME NOT FOR THE MONEY)! If there was a problem, which agreed

> you will have problem children in every company, it should have been

> dealt with professionally and internally, at the very least we

> deserve that.

>

> For this person to think that PUBLICLY DEGRADING your employees will

> make them work any harder is asinine! I for one do not take sick

> time unless I am in fact sick, I work hard and deserve to take that

> time off! Which most if not all of my fellow employees would agree.

> Simply put this is nothing more than a slap in the face for people

> who work hard for their company and invest their time to take care of

> people in need!

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Careful now, my email wasn't to avoid a union, just avoid the same mistakes

that happened before. The only experience I have with a union was from a

management role, an I can tell you, the employees got short changed.

Wages were lower than other operations of the same company, benefits

non-standard. The only tangible benefit I saw, was employee discipline

issues, and that only effected the 2% of bad apples, who should have been

fired long ago. The union stepped up for them, and kept them in their jobs

longer than they should have been.

Others claim that when you are disciplined you get a union rep as a

witness, this is true. But with Weingarten, you can have that now, they

just aren't union.

There have been times that was in favor of an organized workforce, and

honestly, when I worked for MEDSTAR, I believed it would have helped.

Just don't go into this hap-hazard. Research, investigate, be educated.

Sorry if this offends anyone, but those are things EMS is not known for.

Mike

Re: MedStar answer times suffer due to sick time

>

>

> I am a employee at Medstar. What frustrates me is the fact that he

> is more concerned with the bottom line than with patient care! The

> employees at Medstar are overworked, underpaid, under appreciated,

> simply put they are exhausted. And then for all of us to be publicly

> humiliated by our own Exec. Director.

>

> To me having an ambulance where the crew is mentally, emotionally,

> and phsycally exhausted and is more inclined to make mistakes

> regarding pt care and poor bedside mannor, is it better to be down

> one truck or have that truck in service. This is where pt care comes

> in to play.

>

> Another thing that gets me, these people here bust their butts

> because of their love for the job (HELPING PEOPLE) not for the money

> (BELIEVE ME NOT FOR THE MONEY)! If there was a problem, which agreed

> you will have problem children in every company, it should have been

> dealt with professionally and internally, at the very least we

> deserve that.

>

> For this person to think that PUBLICLY DEGRADING your employees will

> make them work any harder is asinine! I for one do not take sick

> time unless I am in fact sick, I work hard and deserve to take that

> time off! Which most if not all of my fellow employees would agree.

> Simply put this is nothing more than a slap in the face for people

> who work hard for their company and invest their time to take care of

> people in need!

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Careful now, my email wasn't to avoid a union, just avoid the same mistakes

that happened before. The only experience I have with a union was from a

management role, an I can tell you, the employees got short changed.

Wages were lower than other operations of the same company, benefits

non-standard. The only tangible benefit I saw, was employee discipline

issues, and that only effected the 2% of bad apples, who should have been

fired long ago. The union stepped up for them, and kept them in their jobs

longer than they should have been.

Others claim that when you are disciplined you get a union rep as a

witness, this is true. But with Weingarten, you can have that now, they

just aren't union.

There have been times that was in favor of an organized workforce, and

honestly, when I worked for MEDSTAR, I believed it would have helped.

Just don't go into this hap-hazard. Research, investigate, be educated.

Sorry if this offends anyone, but those are things EMS is not known for.

Mike

Re: MedStar answer times suffer due to sick time

>

>

> I am a employee at Medstar. What frustrates me is the fact that he

> is more concerned with the bottom line than with patient care! The

> employees at Medstar are overworked, underpaid, under appreciated,

> simply put they are exhausted. And then for all of us to be publicly

> humiliated by our own Exec. Director.

>

> To me having an ambulance where the crew is mentally, emotionally,

> and phsycally exhausted and is more inclined to make mistakes

> regarding pt care and poor bedside mannor, is it better to be down

> one truck or have that truck in service. This is where pt care comes

> in to play.

>

> Another thing that gets me, these people here bust their butts

> because of their love for the job (HELPING PEOPLE) not for the money

> (BELIEVE ME NOT FOR THE MONEY)! If there was a problem, which agreed

> you will have problem children in every company, it should have been

> dealt with professionally and internally, at the very least we

> deserve that.

>

> For this person to think that PUBLICLY DEGRADING your employees will

> make them work any harder is asinine! I for one do not take sick

> time unless I am in fact sick, I work hard and deserve to take that

> time off! Which most if not all of my fellow employees would agree.

> Simply put this is nothing more than a slap in the face for people

> who work hard for their company and invest their time to take care of

> people in need!

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Working for the company versus working for a union -

either way, we are working for someone - people who

have their own agendas versus the interest of the

whole. There is no easy cure.

Whether MedStar tries to uinionize or not, the

employees first need to come together and act as one

and support ourselves before we look for 'outside'

help.

Mowrey

--- N5XNU@... wrote:

---------------------------------

Having recently survived the unionization process in

the company that puts

the groceries on my table, I've seen first hand what

both sides do during the

process. First off, it took several years before

convincing enough of the

labor force that a union was justified. After several

attempts and numerous

votes, the union was voted in by a mere 7 people (out

of close to 600 eligible

voters). The company, contrary to the law, made

threats, made promises, and

lied through their teeth to coerce the laborers to

vote against the union.

The union, made bold promises, painted glowing

pictures, etc in an effort to

convince labor to vote for the union. Once the

election was confirmed, it

took nearly 3 yrs to get a contract. The contract

made a few gains for labor,

primarily in the realm of wages, but the company has

chosen to ignore parts of

the agreement that they didn't really agree to. The

contract was one

generated by a mediator in a last ditch effort to

avoid a strike. The contract was

ratified over 5 yrs ago and the union and company are

in negotiations for a

new contract. Negotiations have been dragging now

for over a year and a half

and very little has been agreed to. Another local in

the union bargained

for well over 2 yrs before getting a new contract and

it took the intervention

of a federal judge to get the company off of the dime

and actually negotiate.

As for the contract compelling the company to do

things, it does. But the

union or local must challenge the breaches in court,

which takes money, LOTS

of money. Where does the money come from? The quick

answer is your dues. If

the dues isn't sufficient, then the local can assess

its members for more.

If the local doesn't have the bucks, and the parent

union can't or won't

front them the money, then you have few options. It

boils down to how much you

want to endure before you walk out, assuming that your

contract allows such a

remedy.

The bottom line is are you going to be better off with

a union? Our company

enjoys better wages, better living conditions and a

couple of low key

bennies. The overall relationship has gone from

" family " to adversarial. Where we

used to be able to work things out between managers

and worker bees, now we

have an " us vs. them " working relationship, grievance

procedures, system

board of adjustments, arbitrators, etc. The company

is convinced the union is

going to bankrupt them and the union is convinced

that the company is dragging

their feet to keep from granting a new contract.

A first glance, a union seems like a sure cure. I'm

not so certain.

Personally, I'd just as soon work for a company that

values my skills and

compensates me accordingly, doesn't try to enslave me,

and gives me a fair shake when

the chips are down. Since some companies are so big

that they forget the

guys in the trenches, maybe a union is what it takes

to wake them up and make

them realize that we are not automatons, that we do

have lives outside of the

company, etc.

My advice is to look VERY carefully before you leap.

Kirk

EMT-B

[Guest guest]

Dudley,

I'm not in complete disagreement with you. I did labor law for management

for years, and I know exactly how unions work. I represented several very

large manufacturing corporations, one of which was 's Soup, and I have

done lots of labor negotiations. Believe me, the doctrine of plausible

deniability is still alive and well within management. One of the things

management

does is get other employees to spy on the union organizers, do dirty tricks

to them, and so forth. And unions do the same thing.

If you read everything I said, I think I made it clear that before one goes

with a union one should ask lots of very pointed questions.

Normally I'm not a fan of unions, but it looks like the management at MedStar

is so obstinate and lacking in employee relations skills that something needs

to be done to wake them up and get their attention.

Sometimes just a little organization action will get them thinking about the

situation and trying to correct it.

But don't think for one minute that the stuff that I described isn't still

done. It's just being done in a more sophisticated way. The days of union

violence a la Jimmy Hoffa are long gone, but subtler tactics are now employed.

Either way the troops can find themselves harassed both at work and at home,

spied on, demoted, fired, and so forth.

And true, the contract negotiations can end up in employees giving up some

things that they have, but they usually gain some others. One thing they gain

is a CONTRACT which takes away the employer's power to fire them at will.

As I said, extreme care should be used in choosing a representative union.

I would ask lots of questions and talk to lots and lots of people that they

represent.

As for being polarized, if I didn't have you as a foil, I wouldn't be quite

so partisan perhaps. I take adversarial positions with the certainty that

you'll jump on me and present the other side. That way all sides get aired.

I certainly wish that MedStar management would take the bull by the horns and

develop clear lines of open communications with the employees. Maybe this

is being done. Nobody has told me that it is, but maybe it is. I would

immediately ask all employees to come to a series of meetings, scheduled so that

everybody could come, and I'd pay them for coming. I would frankly discuss

the problems management faces and lay it all out on the line to the troops. I

would ask them to come up with suggested alternatives, create an employee

group to meet regularly with management and discuss problems, let the employees

elect the representatives of that group, and make sure that meaningful

conversations were held at regular intervals. In other words, I would give the

employees some empowerment and participation and try to gain their cooperation

rather than their enmity.

But that's probably too obvious and too complicated for an organization with

the cultural structure of MedStar. It's clearly a Theory X run company, and

that's very, very bad.

When I said they have nothing to lose by attempting unionization, I said it

because from the reports I am getting management is so polarized and calcified

in its positions that no progress is being made. So when one tactic doesn't

work, try something else.

Reports I am getting say that there is no reasonable pipeline of

communication between dissatisfied troops and management. If true, that's a

situation

that gives the employees little else to try but unionization.

I hope things get better at MedStar for everybody's sake, not the least of

which are the people of Tarrant County who seem to have been forgotten.

Best,

Gene

In a message dated 10/6/05 0:24:46, THE DUDMAN writes:

>

>

>

> Gene,

>

>  

>

> My comments had nothing to do with a management role.  I personally have no

> interest about MedStar or what their employees decide to do...

>

>  

>

> BUT when I see you paint unionization as the panacea of all ills that face

> employees of large or small EMS agencies, I have to state the other side of

> the argument.

>

>  

>

> What do you have to lose?  How about money to union dues.  How about

> benefits that you currently enjoy that may not be included after contract

> negotiations.  What about a union that does absolutely nothing for the

employees

> except collect the dues and show up in a non-involved role when an employee is

> having a serious discipline issue...watches the process go sideways and pats

the

> employee on the back telling them  " tough luck, good luck in your future " . 

> There is plenty to lose.

>

>  

>

> A couple of emails before yours was one from Mike who warned the

> employees to avoid a union that has been in that area before...BECAUSE IT DID

> NOTHING FOR THE EMPLOYEES!!!  What kind of veiled threat was that.

>

>  

>

> You were the one who said " join up...YOU HAVE NOTHING TO LOSE " .  I only was

> presenting a counter argument to your blanket statement of unions saving the

> world.

>

>  

>

> If unions are such a great thing...why are the numbers of unionized people

> in America falling?  Why are unions having less and less political strength? 

>

>  

>

> No matter, more power to anyone who wants to unionize.  I have fought it

> before when I was not in a leadership role...but not anymore.  If the folks

> want it, they want it.  Go for it.  My concern is that in your next email you

> make a rash of blanket statements about how  " management " is an evil force that

> we need Luke Skywalker to come combat...and that they will do anything

> to  " scare " people from voting for a union...one problem ole wise one...you

forgot

> to mention that UNION organizers do the same thing. 

>

>  

>

> You are so wise to give advice on what to do when management does things

> wrong.  For those who are curious, the abbreviation is TIPS.  Leadership of

the

> organization where the employees are trying to unionize CANNOT threaten,

> intimidate, promise, or spy.  I am educated...I know the laws...and because of

> the laws and penalties behind this, any organization that has any training in

> labor law will NOT do any of these.  The tactics that Gene mentioned are from

> the old union days...Gene, seen Jimmy Hoffa lately??? 

>

>  

>

> The bad thing is that the folks from Union X that the employees decide to

> go with are not forbidden by law from making any wild promises, claims,

> enticements, etc.  They can promise the world...but remember this...especially

> those who think private EMS is evil...unions are money making organizations

who

> desire to see you organize for the further collection of dues...it is

> additional revenue...

>

>  

>

> The union reps that come in to help you organize and get an election will

> tell you how many days off you will get with a union, what kind of benefits

> you will get that are better than what you have now...and the biggie...how

much

> more money you will make...but the truth is that if a union is voted in to

> represent the employees, they enter into negotiations with the employer...and

> those negotiations start at ZERO...not at where you are today.  And, with the

> exception of some of the larger, more reputable unions, the

> first negotiation point that unions go for is Dues deductions from your

paychecks.  They want

> that because they can't trust the employees to pay their dues

> regularly...and since that is their revenue...it is the first big win that

they go for. 

> Then...and only then...will they start to work on making your working

> conditions better. 

>

>  

>

> And if you vote in a union like the one Mike mentioned, you could go 24 to

> 36 months before negotiations finish up because the union doesn't see you as

> a priority.  So, shop carefully....because while these negotiations are

> on-going...by law...all employment conditions stay the same...no raises,

changes

> in benefits, etc. 

>

>  

>

> So, like Gene, if you feel unionization is the best method...then BE VERY

> CAREFUL about who you seek out.  Don't settle for the first group that comes

> to town.  Make sure they have experience in Texas, make sure they have

> experience in EMS, make sure they have experience in right to work states, and

talk

> to people not just in the locations they tell you about...but research them

> and visit the locations they are in that they DO NOT tell you about.

>

>  

>

> C'mon Gene...relax a little and don't try to polarize things so much...it

> doesn't have to be an us vs. them...even if a union is the path that people

> choose.  AND, there are always 2 sides to everything...it isn't always the way

> you put it because you say so (and yes...the same applies to me .

>

>  

>

> Dudley 

>  

> Re: MedStar answer times suffer due to sick time

> >

> >

> > I am a employee at Medstar.  What frustrates me is the fact that he

> > is more concerned with the bottom line than with patient care!  The

> > employees at Medstar are overworked, underpaid, under appreciated,

> > simply put they are exhausted.  And then for all of us to be publicly

> > humiliated by our own Exec. Director.

> >

> > To me having an ambulance where the crew is mentally, emotionally,

> > and phsycally exhausted and is more inclined to make mistakes

> > regarding pt care and poor bedside mannor, is it better to be down

> > one truck or have that truck in service.  This is where pt care comes

> > in to play.

> >

> > Another thing that gets me, these people here bust their butts

> > because of their love for the job (HELPING PEOPLE) not for the money

> > (BELIEVE ME NOT FOR THE MONEY)!  If there was a problem, which agreed

> > you will have problem children in every company, it should have been

> > dealt with professionally and internally, at the very least we

> > deserve that.

> >

> > For this person to think that PUBLICLY DEGRADING your employees will

> > make them work any harder is asinine!  I for one do not take sick

> > time unless I am in fact sick, I work hard and deserve to take that

> > time off!  Which most if not all of my fellow employees would agree.

> > Simply put this is nothing more than a slap in the face for people

> > who work hard for their company and invest their time to take care of

> > people in need!

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Dudley,

I'm not in complete disagreement with you. I did labor law for management

for years, and I know exactly how unions work. I represented several very

large manufacturing corporations, one of which was 's Soup, and I have

done lots of labor negotiations. Believe me, the doctrine of plausible

deniability is still alive and well within management. One of the things

management

does is get other employees to spy on the union organizers, do dirty tricks

to them, and so forth. And unions do the same thing.

If you read everything I said, I think I made it clear that before one goes

with a union one should ask lots of very pointed questions.

Normally I'm not a fan of unions, but it looks like the management at MedStar

is so obstinate and lacking in employee relations skills that something needs

to be done to wake them up and get their attention.

Sometimes just a little organization action will get them thinking about the

situation and trying to correct it.

But don't think for one minute that the stuff that I described isn't still

done. It's just being done in a more sophisticated way. The days of union

violence a la Jimmy Hoffa are long gone, but subtler tactics are now employed.

Either way the troops can find themselves harassed both at work and at home,

spied on, demoted, fired, and so forth.

And true, the contract negotiations can end up in employees giving up some

things that they have, but they usually gain some others. One thing they gain

is a CONTRACT which takes away the employer's power to fire them at will.

As I said, extreme care should be used in choosing a representative union.

I would ask lots of questions and talk to lots and lots of people that they

represent.

As for being polarized, if I didn't have you as a foil, I wouldn't be quite

so partisan perhaps. I take adversarial positions with the certainty that

you'll jump on me and present the other side. That way all sides get aired.

I certainly wish that MedStar management would take the bull by the horns and

develop clear lines of open communications with the employees. Maybe this

is being done. Nobody has told me that it is, but maybe it is. I would

immediately ask all employees to come to a series of meetings, scheduled so that

everybody could come, and I'd pay them for coming. I would frankly discuss

the problems management faces and lay it all out on the line to the troops. I

would ask them to come up with suggested alternatives, create an employee

group to meet regularly with management and discuss problems, let the employees

elect the representatives of that group, and make sure that meaningful

conversations were held at regular intervals. In other words, I would give the

employees some empowerment and participation and try to gain their cooperation

rather than their enmity.

But that's probably too obvious and too complicated for an organization with

the cultural structure of MedStar. It's clearly a Theory X run company, and

that's very, very bad.

When I said they have nothing to lose by attempting unionization, I said it

because from the reports I am getting management is so polarized and calcified

in its positions that no progress is being made. So when one tactic doesn't

work, try something else.

Reports I am getting say that there is no reasonable pipeline of

communication between dissatisfied troops and management. If true, that's a

situation

that gives the employees little else to try but unionization.

I hope things get better at MedStar for everybody's sake, not the least of

which are the people of Tarrant County who seem to have been forgotten.

Best,

Gene

In a message dated 10/6/05 0:24:46, THE DUDMAN writes:

>

>

>

> Gene,

>

>  

>

> My comments had nothing to do with a management role.  I personally have no

> interest about MedStar or what their employees decide to do...

>

>  

>

> BUT when I see you paint unionization as the panacea of all ills that face

> employees of large or small EMS agencies, I have to state the other side of

> the argument.

>

>  

>

> What do you have to lose?  How about money to union dues.  How about

> benefits that you currently enjoy that may not be included after contract

> negotiations.  What about a union that does absolutely nothing for the

employees

> except collect the dues and show up in a non-involved role when an employee is

> having a serious discipline issue...watches the process go sideways and pats

the

> employee on the back telling them  " tough luck, good luck in your future " . 

> There is plenty to lose.

>

>  

>

> A couple of emails before yours was one from Mike who warned the

> employees to avoid a union that has been in that area before...BECAUSE IT DID

> NOTHING FOR THE EMPLOYEES!!!  What kind of veiled threat was that.

>

>  

>

> You were the one who said " join up...YOU HAVE NOTHING TO LOSE " .  I only was

> presenting a counter argument to your blanket statement of unions saving the

> world.

>

>  

>

> If unions are such a great thing...why are the numbers of unionized people

> in America falling?  Why are unions having less and less political strength? 

>

>  

>

> No matter, more power to anyone who wants to unionize.  I have fought it

> before when I was not in a leadership role...but not anymore.  If the folks

> want it, they want it.  Go for it.  My concern is that in your next email you

> make a rash of blanket statements about how  " management " is an evil force that

> we need Luke Skywalker to come combat...and that they will do anything

> to  " scare " people from voting for a union...one problem ole wise one...you

forgot

> to mention that UNION organizers do the same thing. 

>

>  

>

> You are so wise to give advice on what to do when management does things

> wrong.  For those who are curious, the abbreviation is TIPS.  Leadership of

the

> organization where the employees are trying to unionize CANNOT threaten,

> intimidate, promise, or spy.  I am educated...I know the laws...and because of

> the laws and penalties behind this, any organization that has any training in

> labor law will NOT do any of these.  The tactics that Gene mentioned are from

> the old union days...Gene, seen Jimmy Hoffa lately??? 

>

>  

>

> The bad thing is that the folks from Union X that the employees decide to

> go with are not forbidden by law from making any wild promises, claims,

> enticements, etc.  They can promise the world...but remember this...especially

> those who think private EMS is evil...unions are money making organizations

who

> desire to see you organize for the further collection of dues...it is

> additional revenue...

>

>  

>

> The union reps that come in to help you organize and get an election will

> tell you how many days off you will get with a union, what kind of benefits

> you will get that are better than what you have now...and the biggie...how

much

> more money you will make...but the truth is that if a union is voted in to

> represent the employees, they enter into negotiations with the employer...and

> those negotiations start at ZERO...not at where you are today.  And, with the

> exception of some of the larger, more reputable unions, the

> first negotiation point that unions go for is Dues deductions from your

paychecks.  They want

> that because they can't trust the employees to pay their dues

> regularly...and since that is their revenue...it is the first big win that

they go for. 

> Then...and only then...will they start to work on making your working

> conditions better. 

>

>  

>

> And if you vote in a union like the one Mike mentioned, you could go 24 to

> 36 months before negotiations finish up because the union doesn't see you as

> a priority.  So, shop carefully....because while these negotiations are

> on-going...by law...all employment conditions stay the same...no raises,

changes

> in benefits, etc. 

>

>  

>

> So, like Gene, if you feel unionization is the best method...then BE VERY

> CAREFUL about who you seek out.  Don't settle for the first group that comes

> to town.  Make sure they have experience in Texas, make sure they have

> experience in EMS, make sure they have experience in right to work states, and

talk

> to people not just in the locations they tell you about...but research them

> and visit the locations they are in that they DO NOT tell you about.

>

>  

>

> C'mon Gene...relax a little and don't try to polarize things so much...it

> doesn't have to be an us vs. them...even if a union is the path that people

> choose.  AND, there are always 2 sides to everything...it isn't always the way

> you put it because you say so (and yes...the same applies to me .

>

>  

>

> Dudley 

>  

> Re: MedStar answer times suffer due to sick time

> >

> >

> > I am a employee at Medstar.  What frustrates me is the fact that he

> > is more concerned with the bottom line than with patient care!  The

> > employees at Medstar are overworked, underpaid, under appreciated,

> > simply put they are exhausted.  And then for all of us to be publicly

> > humiliated by our own Exec. Director.

> >

> > To me having an ambulance where the crew is mentally, emotionally,

> > and phsycally exhausted and is more inclined to make mistakes

> > regarding pt care and poor bedside mannor, is it better to be down

> > one truck or have that truck in service.  This is where pt care comes

> > in to play.

> >

> > Another thing that gets me, these people here bust their butts

> > because of their love for the job (HELPING PEOPLE) not for the money

> > (BELIEVE ME NOT FOR THE MONEY)!  If there was a problem, which agreed

> > you will have problem children in every company, it should have been

> > dealt with professionally and internally, at the very least we

> > deserve that.

> >

> > For this person to think that PUBLICLY DEGRADING your employees will

> > make them work any harder is asinine!  I for one do not take sick

> > time unless I am in fact sick, I work hard and deserve to take that

> > time off!  Which most if not all of my fellow employees would agree.

> > Simply put this is nothing more than a slap in the face for people

> > who work hard for their company and invest their time to take care of

> > people in need!

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

GOOD POINT DAVE ALL NEED TO COME TOGETHER OR NOTHING WILL CHANGE.

- In , Mowrey <davidmowrey@s...>

wrote:

>

> Working for the company versus working for a union -

> either way, we are working for someone - people who

> have their own agendas versus the interest of the

> whole. There is no easy cure.

>

> Whether MedStar tries to uinionize or not, the

> employees first need to come together and act as one

> and support ourselves before we look for 'outside'

> help.

>

> Mowrey

>

> --- N5XNU@A... wrote:

>

>

> ---------------------------------

> Having recently survived the unionization process in

> the company that puts

> the groceries on my table, I've seen first hand what

> both sides do during the

> process. First off, it took several years before

> convincing enough of the

> labor force that a union was justified. After several

> attempts and numerous

> votes, the union was voted in by a mere 7 people (out

> of close to 600 eligible

> voters). The company, contrary to the law, made

> threats, made promises, and

> lied through their teeth to coerce the laborers to

> vote against the union.

> The union, made bold promises, painted glowing

> pictures, etc in an effort to

> convince labor to vote for the union. Once the

> election was confirmed, it

> took nearly 3 yrs to get a contract. The contract

> made a few gains for labor,

> primarily in the realm of wages, but the company has

> chosen to ignore parts of

> the agreement that they didn't really agree to. The

> contract was one

> generated by a mediator in a last ditch effort to

> avoid a strike. The contract was

> ratified over 5 yrs ago and the union and company are

> in negotiations for a

> new contract. Negotiations have been dragging now

> for over a year and a half

> and very little has been agreed to. Another local in

> the union bargained

> for well over 2 yrs before getting a new contract and

> it took the intervention

> of a federal judge to get the company off of the dime

> and actually negotiate.

>

> As for the contract compelling the company to do

> things, it does. But the

> union or local must challenge the breaches in court,

> which takes money, LOTS

> of money. Where does the money come from? The quick

> answer is your dues. If

> the dues isn't sufficient, then the local can assess

> its members for more.

> If the local doesn't have the bucks, and the parent

> union can't or won't

> front them the money, then you have few options. It

> boils down to how much you

> want to endure before you walk out, assuming that your

> contract allows such a

> remedy.

>

> The bottom line is are you going to be better off with

> a union? Our company

> enjoys better wages, better living conditions and a

> couple of low key

> bennies. The overall relationship has gone from

> " family " to adversarial. Where we

> used to be able to work things out between managers

> and worker bees, now we

> have an " us vs. them " working relationship, grievance

> procedures, system

> board of adjustments, arbitrators, etc. The company

> is convinced the union is

> going to bankrupt them and the union is convinced

> that the company is dragging

> their feet to keep from granting a new contract.

>

> A first glance, a union seems like a sure cure. I'm

> not so certain.

> Personally, I'd just as soon work for a company that

> values my skills and

> compensates me accordingly, doesn't try to enslave me,

> and gives me a fair shake when

> the chips are down. Since some companies are so big

> that they forget the

> guys in the trenches, maybe a union is what it takes

> to wake them up and make

> them realize that we are not automatons, that we do

> have lives outside of the

> company, etc.

>

> My advice is to look VERY carefully before you leap.

>

> Kirk

> EMT-B

>

>

>