RE: Contented Little Babies

[Guest guest]

>Anneliese wrote:

>Gobsmacked of Alton!

>Our website guestbook has an entry from Ford! Is this a troll, do you

think, or for real?

What DO people think about the Contented Little Baby book, apart from my

feeling that if you were to follow this regime you wouldn't have a life (let

alone be able to deal with a toddler)...

Still, I'm curious. I would love to have some form of routine, but ability

to stay flexible too. Has anyone really followed this stuff and made it

work?

Sorry if this is a contentious topic that's been banned for discussion

previously...

Karina

Mum to Emilia (2 years 2 months, angel at night, cheeky *devil* in the day)

and Sebastian (3 months, terror at night, sunshine in the day)

[Guest guest]

Well, I don't think I could follow the Contented Little Baby regime - especially

not 2nd time around with a toddler!

But, my step father gave me one piece of advice when I came home from hospital

with , and that was to give him his 6 pm (ish) feed in his bedroom with no

distractions, and then when he woke up in the night to feed him in his room (not

downstairs, in my room etc.) and to make it as boring as possible.

It worked for me - with both babies - in that they both slept from 7 - 7 from

about 6 weeks, they now go to bed between 5.30 and 6 pm and stay in bed until

7.30 am (Kitty) and 8.30 am (). It is the only thing that I have been

really strict about routine wise, and it has been essential for my sanity! I

love my long evenings without children.

Everyone tells me that if I have a third I'll get my come uppance - we'll wait

and see, cos they said that about number 2!

KB Holm wrote:

> What DO people think about the Contented Little Baby book, apart from my

> feeling that if you were to follow this regime you wouldn't have a life (let

> alone be able to deal with a toddler)...

>

> Still, I'm curious. I would love to have some form of routine, but ability

> to stay flexible too.

[Guest guest]

Wonderful article Sue, explained it better than I have ever heard ...

Can you also explain (or anyone else ftm) what effect post-birth illness can

have on this. Having suffered horrendously from post-delivery bleeding and

dreadful anaemia, I seem to have been excused my inability to breastfed but

never actually understood why! I started off with every intention too, but

with a baby craving for food every 2 hours and getting seemingly little to

the point of screaming murder after suckling for 25 minutes, the m/w wasn't

putting up any argument when I asked for a bottle.

Probably makes me sound thick .....

TIA

[Guest guest]

Thanks Barbara .. my son was a 10lb and I didn't have a transfusion (have an

allergy to Iron as well) Sort of reassuring that someone else may have had

the same problem (if you see what I mean) hopefully she won't have the same

problems I did. Give her my love from someone who's been there ... makes you

awfully weak.

Regards

Re: Contented Little Babies

> Can you also explain (or anyone else ftm) what effect post-birth illness

can

> have on this.

interesting question , I`d be interested too- have a friend (last wk)

who lost blood at delivery and had a transfusion on day 2. Does this delay

milk coming in - as does a c/s? If that is so - how does the baby react -

not getting milk for another few hours or a day or so? Especially if its a

big baby (9lb)?

Barbara

Live chat /chat/nct-coffee

Have you found out about all the other groups for the NCT online?

[Guest guest]

Thsnk you very much Sue,

I was incredibly tired ie slept 18 hours out of 24 for about 2½ weeks and

was quite emotionally drained .... as of course you would be ... so this

fits my case.

The midwives were absolutely brilliant and supported me no end, latching

Haydn on each and every tme and sitting with me most of his feeding time as

well, and they *supported* (ie they didn't try to talk me out of it - bt

didn't go promoting either) my decision to swap to bottle (very

heartbreaking) think if they/I had been armed with this info previously I

*might* have tried harder to sustain what I had (as little as it was).

The fact that I hadn't had the transfusion and my haemo level was below 5

really took it's toll on me, had I been able to have a booster of Iron as

well may have helped ... 7 months on and my haemo level is still only 9!

sick and tired of dried apricots, broccoli and red meat as well!!!

but there you go .. the best laid plans and all that! can't even have

another go :-(

Regards

[Guest guest]

>>Anneliese wrote:

>>Gobsmacked of Alton!

>>Our website guestbook has an entry from Ford! Is this a troll, do you

>think, or for real?

>

>What DO people think about the Contented Little Baby book, apart from my

>feeling that if you were to follow this regime you wouldn't have a life (let

>alone be able to deal with a toddler)...

>

>Still, I'm curious. I would love to have some form of routine, but ability

>to stay flexible too. Has anyone really followed this stuff and made it

>work?

I'm interested to learn that some of Ford's methods are similar to

the Ezzo's " infant management " methods. I have been looking at some

URLs that discuss the Ezzo parenting methods, and the dangers of some of

the things they teach in their books, courses and videos. Amongst other

things, they teach scheduled feeding (every 3-4 hours only, never more);

putting baby down in cot whilst awake and leaving to cry to sleep if

necessary; baby should sleep through from 8 weeks; not responding to

motherly instincts (these don't exist, apparently) or baby's cues

because this is not God's way; slapping hands when playing with food

(from 8 m/o); dishing out corporal punishment in God's name when a child

has a tantrum; using slings will lead to poor infant development (!);

babies and children should learn to control their urges from day one,

and so on.

There have, apparently, been numerous cases of slow weight gain, weight

loss, dehydration and even death which occurred as a result of parents

following the Ezzo " infant management " (that term really gets me)

methods. The scheduled feeding ideas (which Ford is a keen

advocate of also - she doesn't believe in feeding on demand) just don't

work for most breastfeeding babies, in practice, and this is widely

accepted as poor BF advice.

There is/was a thread about the Ezzos on the main list (BabyWise), if

you want to have a look.

As for routines, I think most people agree that some form of flexible

routine helps parents and children structure the day and often helps

babies sleep better. I believe that parents need to trust their own

instincts and judgement more, instead of reading some of the crap that

is written by people who don't even have their own children, telling us

how to raise our children properly. I generally choose to use my own

common sense and knowledge of my child's individual needs.

Couple of Ford URLs to read here:

http://www.guardianunlimited.co.uk/parents/story/0,3605,387502,00.html

http://www.lineone.net/express/00/10/15/features/f0400-d.html (another

perspective)

And Ezzo here: http://www.breastfeeding.com/advocacy/ezzo_fied.html

Cheers,

--

Clare Lusher.

SAHM to Ruairí (24.10.99).

NCT Member Derby & District.

www.yum.org/clare

[Guest guest]

>Clare wrote:

>I'm interested to learn that some of Ford's methods are similar to

>the Ezzo's " infant management " methods.

Clare, thanks for the reassurance...!

I've been absolutely horrified by the Ezzo's since I first heard about them,

and the thought that Ford's ideas are similar to theirs (though I

imagine slightly less extreme) makes me want to bin her 'Contented Baby'

book immediately.

I've always fed on demand, and used a range of methods to make my babies

sleep (feeding, rocking, reassurance...) and eventually they have learnt to

fall asleep on their own - usually when they have discovered their thumbs!

I do receive a lot of so-called advice and comments (usually from the older

generation)... along the lines of 'isn't he sleeping through the night yet'

and 'didn't you feed her just a moment ago'... but have learnt to ignore it.

We do get there in the end, DD1 now sleeps from 8 to 8 every night (though

DS1 is still a bit of a challenge...!).

I do think babies like some form of routine and predictability, but I guess

it's how you get there that is the issue.

Karina

Mum to Emilia (2) and Sebastian (3 months)

[Guest guest]

>Clare wrote:

>I'm interested to learn that some of Ford's methods are similar to

>the Ezzo's " infant management " methods.

Clare, thanks for the reassurance...!

I've been absolutely horrified by the Ezzo's since I first heard about them,

and the thought that Ford's ideas are similar to theirs (though I

imagine slightly less extreme) makes me want to bin her 'Contented Baby'

book immediately.

I've always fed on demand, and used a range of methods to make my babies

sleep (feeding, rocking, reassurance...) and eventually they have learnt to

fall asleep on their own - usually when they have discovered their thumbs!

I do receive a lot of so-called advice and comments (usually from the older

generation)... along the lines of 'isn't he sleeping through the night yet'

and 'didn't you feed her just a moment ago'... but have learnt to ignore it.

We do get there in the end, DD1 now sleeps from 8 to 8 every night (though

DS1 is still a bit of a challenge...!).

I do think babies like some form of routine and predictability, but I guess

it's how you get there that is the issue.

Karina

Mum to Emilia (2) and Sebastian (3 months)

[Guest guest]

Karina wrote:

>I do think babies like some form of routine and predictability, but I guess

>it's how you get there that is the issue.

I always convinced myself that babies didn't need routine - they needed

some consistency. Steffi had slept in 26 beds by the time she was a

year old and had travelled to Jersey, US, Canada and New Zealand, (11

flights altogether) as well as around the UK to visit whoever would put

us up!

It is quite possible that her appalling sleeping habits were a result of

this. OTOH, I'm not sure I could have stayed at home training her into

a routine. On the one night I attempted 'crying it out' I had most of

my neighbours asking me the following morning if she was ill as this was

the first time they had heard her cry (we lived in a flat with 4

neighbours around).

It took us until October 1999 to establish a routine but it is one that

has hardly varied since - even through international moves. Will it

continue next week? I'll let you know once I'm Down Under!

--

Sue

[Guest guest]

I found Ford's style a bit irritating, but most of what she said seemed

eminently sensible. It hadn't occurred to me to give Tim daytime sleeps till I

read her book - he was much happier once I started putting him in his cot in the

daytime! Her advice on sleeping in general pretty much ties up with Penney's in

the NCT book (i.e. if you rock your child to sleep etc expect you child to

demand your presence to get back to sleep when it wakes in the night - if it

learns to sleep on its own then you have an easier time). I don;t schedule Tim's

naps precisely according to her schedule - I learnt when his best sleep time was

and use that period instead. The advice is basically sound - the only thing

that surprises me is that she advocates bath before tea rather than vice versa.

I haven't read the Ezzo books, only seen a couple of quotes (including " if a

child over the age of 2 soils itself it should be made to clean up after

itself " ) so can't really judge, but Ms Ford's advice is in no way cruel and

doesn't involve leaving a child to cry (athough I know a few people who reckon

that the " softer " methods of sleep training are no damn good, you need to get

tough from day one, and this is from experience). I also know people who have

said that their babies have been much happier since following her routines. I

think that just about anyone with any degree of childcare experience would agree

that routine is what small children and babies are happiest with - and whereas

Ford's routines may seem overly prescriptive to the average left wing NCT

mummy, interpreted with common sense they work!

For those of you who feel patronised by the detail ( " clean the bottles and put

the steriliser on now " etc) just think for a moment about the level of detailed

instruction you needed to write down the first time you left Daddy to babysit...

She is totally pro bf., btw.

Anneliese (part-time) SAHM to Baby Tim (18/9/99), member, Alton, Bordon and

district branch

[Guest guest]

Seeing as this is Coffee and you are all my friends I hope you won't mind me

indulging in a little anatomy and phys.

The thing that worries me about scheduled feeding, CLBB and Babywise, is that

they are all put forward as complete parenting systems written by people who

have

no idea about how breastfeeding works.

For example each mother has a different capacity for making breastmilk. Now

nearly every mother (98%) makes exactly what her baby needs over a 24 hour

period, but each mothers capacity for making milk at each feed is different. It

is hard to write this down without making breasts seem like vessels but I will

try.

An example would be one mother may make x ounces at each feed, as that is what

her breasts dictate due to the number of ducts she has, (still with me).

Another

mother may make more at each sitting, because she has more ducts than the first

mum. Both mothers will make enough milk, but the first mum may have to feed

every two or three hours, and the second mother may feed every 3 to 4. And

each

baby is different. Some babies milk the ducts far more effectively than others.

So if you get a combination of a baby who feeds super effectively and a mother

who has a lot of ducts, then the feeds may last 5 minutes every 4 to 5 hours.

But worst case scenario would be a mother who has fewer milk ducts, and a baby

who does not feed as effectively, and so she will be feeding say every two hours

and each feed may be 20 minutes or longer. Of course over time the breasts make

more milk at each feed as this is what the baby is demanding and the feeds

naturally space out as the baby gets bigger, can digest more at each feed, and

milks the ducts more effectively.

If you are feeding on demand you won't even need to know all this, as the baby

will feed for as long as he needs to, and as often as he needs to in order to

grow well. But if you follow CLBB you are only feeding every three hours for a

set amount of time, and so your baby may go hungry, or you may be worrying that

your baby isn't feeding for long enough.

And then there is the thing about prolactin receptors - but I won't bore you

with

that. Needless to say frequent feeds in the first 6 to 12 weeks ensures a good

supply for longer term breastfeeding after the breasts have started to return to

a more normal size at around the 3 month mark. not too much of a problem if

you

are returning to work and intend to mixed feed, but if you want to feed very

long

term then there may be a problem there if you follow schedules. I wonder how

many of 's mothers have had to give up feeding before they wanted to because

the routines wrecked their long term supply and wasn't around to find out.

All this has been studied by Dr Hartmann and if anyone is remotely interested an

article on this can be found at http://www.fix.net/~rprewett/evidence.html.

References for his work are to be found at the end of the article.

But straying off the point here, if a mother was to follow the schedules as laid

down by Ford and Ezzo, and she was a mother with a smaller breast capacity, and

had a baby who was not particularly effective in taking milk off in the first

few

months, then this could be dodgy for her baby's health. Of course if you are a

woman with a large breast capacity with a baby who was super effective suckler,

then you won't have a problem but the chances are that your baby would be going

3

or 4 or 5 hours between feeds anyway, making the scheduling meaningless.

Hope I haven't worried anyone with all this - its not something I go into great

details with when talking to mothers about supply, but when you put it against

scheduled feeding it does give me some doubts.

Of course I won't go into being told when to drink and what to eat and at what

time.

Sue H.

[Guest guest]

Thanks Sue,

It made tons of sense to me, I think I have less ducts as I need to feed quite

often (1 -2 hours) especially in the beginning, despite making Melinda

Messenger look flat chested!

How I wish someone had explained this all to me when I had DS1 rather than

having to fight off the " give him a bottle " brigade when coping with severe PND,

and even with the others who all fed frequently.

Mc

SAHM 6, Olivia 3, 2, 15/3/00

Nearly Ex-Editor Wallingford and District

[Guest guest]

Sue Holden wrote

> But worst case scenario would be a mother who has fewer milk

> ducts, and a baby

> who does not feed as effectively, and so she will be feeding say

> every two hours

> and each feed may be 20 minutes or longer.

Or in my case a baby who fed every 2 hours with a 20 minute break in between

(during which she generally cried). If the CLBB had been around during

's first couple of months you can bet your bottom dollar I'd have

bought it - the thing I really really wanted was a contented little baby.

It makes me shiver to think that if I had and if I'd followed the feeding

routines I could have done her some real damage. None of the HPs were

worred about her because she never lost weight but they didn't know just

*how* much I was feeding.

This is fascinating Sue, I'm so glad I came to the NCT egroup lists, I learn

something new every day.

Cerys

ps if anyone *is* chucking out a copy of CLBB please could you chuck it in

my direction for my PNDL training. Thanks.

[Guest guest]

>Seeing as this is Coffee and you are all my friends I hope you won't mind

me

>indulging in a little anatomy and phys.

>

>The thing that worries me about scheduled feeding, CLBB and Babywise, is

that

>they are all put forward as complete parenting systems written by people

who have

>no idea about how breastfeeding works.

Thanks for this explanation Sue - that all makes a lot of sense.

McVeigh

Newsletter Editor & Secretary, Leighton Buzzard & District

SAHM to (AKA Tiff Toff) DOB 19/9/97

& Caitlin (AKA Cake Tin) DOB 12/1/00

[Guest guest]

> Can you also explain (or anyone else ftm) what effect post-birth illness

can

> have on this.

interesting question , I`d be interested too- have a friend (last wk)

who lost blood at delivery and had a transfusion on day 2. Does this delay

milk coming in - as does a c/s? If that is so - how does the baby react -

not getting milk for another few hours or a day or so? Especially if its a

big baby (9lb)?

Barbara

[Guest guest]

OK I'll need to go off and do some digging to give you chapter and verse. I

will also look up bf after a c-section, and the phys. of that.

Give me a day to get you an answer....

Sue H.

[Guest guest]

OK I'll need to go off and do some digging to give you chapter and verse. I

will also look up bf after a c-section, and the phys. of that.

Give me a day to get you an answer....

Sue H.

[Guest guest]

This was really interesting, Sue, and the sort of thing I *would* have found

reassuring when I was struggling to get my babes to put on a couple of

ounces!

However, what I'm really pondering is whether the Ezzo's have ever been

given this information to look at and what their reaction would be. Any

BFC's up for it???

Lesley

--------------------

Sue said.....Seeing as this is Coffee and you are all my friends I hope you

won't mind me

indulging in a little anatomy and phys.

[Guest guest]

This was really interesting, Sue, and the sort of thing I *would* have found

reassuring when I was struggling to get my babes to put on a couple of

ounces!

However, what I'm really pondering is whether the Ezzo's have ever been

given this information to look at and what their reaction would be. Any

BFC's up for it???

Lesley

--------------------

Sue said.....Seeing as this is Coffee and you are all my friends I hope you

won't mind me

indulging in a little anatomy and phys.

[Guest guest]

Sue H wrote

>

> The thing that worries me about scheduled feeding, CLBB and

> Babywise, is that

> they are all put forward as complete parenting systems written by

> people who have

> no idea about how breastfeeding works.

I've been thinking more about this. I have a friend who had a maternity

nurse, struggled through 2 bouts of mastitis and ended up bottle feeding. I

wonder whether the mat nurse and the mastitis are connected? As far as I

remember she was very keen on routine.

Cerys

[Guest guest]

>ps if anyone *is* chucking out a copy of CLBB please could you chuck it in

>my direction for my PNDL training. Thanks.

I've got a copy you can have, Cerys (if I can find it). Let me know your

address off list.

Cath

[Guest guest]

> >ps if anyone *is* chucking out a copy of CLBB please could you chuck it in

> >my direction for my PNDL training. Thanks.

>

Tell you what, Cerys, I'll swap you the copy of 'Before I say Goodbye' for CLBB

- does that sound like a good deal?

[Guest guest]

I also lost a lot of blood after giving birth, became quite anaemic

and had trouble with breast-feeding - my milk didn't come in until the

7th day and by then I was very sore with cracked nipples (big ouch!).

I ended up using nipple shields as a last resort until they were

healed - it was either that or I was stopping! Kate was also a good

size baby - 8lb 13oz. It'll be interesting to see if there is a

connection

Sharon SAHM to Kate (6mnths)

Re: Contented Little Babies

>

>

> > Can you also explain (or anyone else ftm) what effect post-birth

illness

> can

> > have on this.

>

> interesting question , I`d be interested too- have a friend

(last wk)

> who lost blood at delivery and had a transfusion on day 2. Does this

delay

> milk coming in - as does a c/s? If that is so - how does the baby

react -

> not getting milk for another few hours or a day or so? Especially if

its a

> big baby (9lb)?

> Barbara

>

>

>

>

> Live chat /chat/nct-coffee

>

> Have you found out about all the other groups for the NCT online?

>

>

[Guest guest]

Anaemia

As far as I can see anaemia is not a contraindication for breastfeeding,

this is according to Dr Jack Newman who is pro-breastfeeding and

knowledgable. I am still searching for the facts though and will let you

all know when I find something. But one thing Jack did point out is that

anaemia can make you very tired (know that as I am anaemic at the moment).

Although tiredness will not affect the quality or quantity of milk , to can

lead to stress and a lower ability to cope. Personally I could see this

being a huge problem for breastfeeding which is quite an intricate skill to

be learned and takes patience and calm, which may not be possible if you are

anaemic. And I am not saying it is all in the head - the tiredness which

comes with anaemia is a very physical tiredness, and we know tiredness can

affect co-ordination, which is also quite important in latching babies.

Cracked nipples

Cracked nipples and milk not coming in until day 7 is more an indicator that

the baby wasn't suckling properly - a common problem for a young baby. A

good latch would have helped sort out some of this. The cracked nipples is

almost certainly down to the baby not getting the niple far enough back in

her mouth, and this would have also led to less stimulation for the breast,

also slowing down the milk coming in. After a few days/weeks babies tend

to get the hang of stimulating the breast as it gets them what they want,

and babies are very resourceful. also the mother may be gaining in

confidence and more experience too, and so unconsciously putting the baby on

in a more effective way.

C-Section

When the placenta detaches from the uterus in third stage, a huge rush of

hormones accompanies it, and this is what helps your milk come in. It is

also why a c-section or a long traumatic labour can slow down the milk

coming in as the rush of hormones just doesn't happen. Adrenaline inhibits

oxytocin, and if the birth is stressful then this can mean that this rush

isn't quite as big as it would otherwise be.

It doesn't mean you can't breastfeed, just that it takes longer for the milk

to come in. this can have a knock on effect on the babies weight loss in

the first 7 days, as obviously the baby isn't getting mature milk until

later than a baby who has been getting mature milk from day 2 or 3, or in

the case of someone bottle feeding day 1. It can be why breastfed babies

take longer to regain their birth weight and often this isn't a problem. In

fact colostrum, which the baby will be getting is super concentrated and is

also laxative helping the baby to shed meconium, and also helping to rid

some of the excess fluid that a baby is born with.

And so a baby not regaining their birth weight, if the mother has had a

c-section or traumatic birth may not be a problem with her breasts, but

would have worried the medical profession because even though it is a

temproray problem, and one easily cured when the milk comes in and the baby

has been feeding on mature milk for a week ors o, it can still be

alalrming. The medical profession are held accountable and a baby who is

not gaining well, compared to a formula fed baby or a baby who had mature

milk from day 2 or 3, can be concerning...

So three different problems and three completely different answers. Of

course the one link is frequent breastfeeds and a good latch would have

helped in all three cases. And of course the appropriate help and

support.........

Sue H.

[Guest guest]

Fine - I'll let you have it on Tuesday, it's been sitting by my PC for ages

I just keep forgetting to give it to you.

:-)

Cerys

> >

>

> Tell you what, Cerys, I'll swap you the copy of 'Before I say

> Goodbye' for CLBB

> - does that sound like a good deal?

>

>

>