Guest guest Posted June 3, 2001 Report Share Posted June 3, 2001 It seems to me that Chaz Bufe was once doing research in dissertations and posted a couple of abstracts that reported those results. It's only a dim recollection and may be wrong. > In a message dated 6/3/01 1:50:57 PM Pacific Daylight Time, > kayleighs@m... writes: > > > > Actually there have been psychological studies that have shown that > > the prople who profess the most faith in AA (namely, it worked for > > them) are, by their scores on the MMPI, not the most psychologically > > healthy. I cannot remember the sources, but they were once sent into > > this list by someone, I believe. > > > > I would be extremely interested in having that information, if anyone " out > here " still has it. > > --Mona-- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 3, 2001 Report Share Posted June 3, 2001 MonaHolland@... wrote: > In a message dated 6/3/01 1:50:57 PM Pacific Daylight Time, > kayleighs@... writes: > > > >> Actually there have been psychological studies that have shown that >> the prople who profess the most faith in AA (namely, it worked for >> them) are, by their scores on the MMPI, not the most psychologically >> >> healthy. I cannot remember the sources, but they were once sent >> into >> this list by someone, I believe. > > I would be extremely interested in having that information, if anyone > " out > here " still has it. > > --Mona-- Mona, I'm not sure if this is the study referred to but probably is: Brandesma JM, Maultsby MC, and Welsh RJ, " The Outpatient Treatment of Alcoholism: A Review and Comparative Study. " Balktimore: University Park Press, 1980 Here is what I wrote on the study (from " The Real AA " copyright 1991 Ken Ragge): __________________________________________________________ In another study of court-referred treatment, done in Lexington, Kentucky, 197 alcoholic patients took part.i They were randomly divided into five groups: professional “insight” therapy; professional behavior therapy; lay-led behavior therapy; AA; and a no-treatment control group. Of the 197 patients who began therapy, 104 were still available for the one-year final outcome study. Of the subjective measures, perhaps the most telling is the number of respondents who reported improvement for the final three months. AA tied with the no-treatment control group for the smallest percentage of those who could report improvement. One of the professional groups and the lay group fared remarkably better. All groups had some members who attended AA but the lay-led group, which reported the best results on this measure, had the least intense AA involvement. Compounding this pathetic outcome for AA is that the 12 who stuck with AA for the year scored progressively worse on two important MMPI (Minnesota Multiphasic Personality Inventory) scales. One of these, the Finney Addiction Scale, is used to identify people who have trouble with narcotics by measuring the personality qualities such people tend to have. The AA members became more like the kind of people who have narcotics problems. The other measure, called the Hysteria Scale, is related to people who have somatic complaints and to the denial of difficulties. The AA group, the group that reported the least success, was also the one most inclined to hide its difficulties. _________________________________________________________ Ken Ragge Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 3, 2001 Report Share Posted June 3, 2001 Here is what I wrote on the study (from "The Real AA" copyright 1991 Ken Ragge): Ken, if you will give me your permission, I'd like to further inflame some people by posting your excerpt in the about forum. Would that be ok with you? (And thanks for the citation to the other study.) --Mona-- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 4, 2001 Report Share Posted June 4, 2001 MonaHolland@... wrote: > In a message dated 6/3/01 4:36:53 PM US Eastern Standard Time, > kenr1@... > writes: > > > >> >> Here is what I wrote on the study (from " The Real AA " copyright 1991 >> Ken >> Ragge): > > Ken, if you will give me your permission, I'd like to further inflame > some > people by posting your excerpt in the about forum. Would that be ok > with > you? (And thanks for the citation to the other study.) > > --Mona-- Mona, That would be fine. Ken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 4, 2001 Report Share Posted June 4, 2001 Hi Ken My old rehab used to give patients the MMPI. Later they stopped it, becuase ( the owner, my sponsor said) " it didnt help much " . Perhpas they didnt like what it told them. P. > > > In a message dated 6/3/01 1:50:57 PM Pacific Daylight Time, > > kayleighs@m... writes: > > > > > > > >> Actually there have been psychological studies that have shown that > >> the prople who profess the most faith in AA (namely, it worked for > >> them) are, by their scores on the MMPI, not the most psychologically > >> > >> healthy. I cannot remember the sources, but they were once sent > >> into > >> this list by someone, I believe. > > > > I would be extremely interested in having that information, if anyone > > " out > > here " still has it. > > > > --Mona-- > > Mona, > > I'm not sure if this is the study referred to but probably is: > > Brandesma JM, Maultsby MC, and Welsh RJ, " The Outpatient Treatment of > Alcoholism: A Review and Comparative Study. " Balktimore: University > Park Press, 1980 > > Here is what I wrote on the study (from " The Real AA " copyright 1991 Ken > Ragge): > > __________________________________________________________ > > In another study of court-referred treatment, done in Lexington, > Kentucky, 197 alcoholic patients took part.i They were randomly divided > into five groups: professional " insight " therapy; professional behavior > therapy; lay-led behavior therapy; AA; and a no-treatment control group. > Of > the 197 patients who began therapy, 104 were still available for the > one-year final outcome study. > Of the subjective measures, perhaps the most telling is the number of > respondents who reported improvement for the final three months. AA tied > with the no-treatment control group for the smallest percentage of those > who could report improvement. One of the professional groups and the lay > group fared remarkably better. All groups had some members who attended > AA but the lay-led group, which reported the best results on this > measure, had the least intense AA involvement. > Compounding this pathetic outcome for AA is that the 12 who stuck with > AA for the year scored progressively worse on two important MMPI > (Minnesota Multiphasic Personality Inventory) scales. One of these, the > Finney Addiction Scale, is used to identify people who have trouble with > narcotics by measuring the personality qualities such people tend to > have. The AA members became more like the kind of people who have > narcotics problems. > The other measure, called the Hysteria Scale, is related to people who > have somatic complaints and to the denial of difficulties. The AA group, > the group that reported the least success, was also the one most > inclined to hide its difficulties. > > _________________________________________________________ > > Ken Ragge Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 4, 2001 Report Share Posted June 4, 2001 My rehab gave the MMPI too. My score? Absolutely normal. Everything within normal boundaries. A little high on the paranoia scale, but nevertheless, not over the normal range, and they conceded that that was pretty typical for lawyers (always envisioning the worst case scenario). I doubt they've stopped, but the large question is, why did they do it in the first place? Everybody got exactly the same treatment. Maybe it was just $$$$$. > > > > > In a message dated 6/3/01 1:50:57 PM Pacific Daylight Time, > > > kayleighs@m... writes: > > > > > > > > > > > >> Actually there have been psychological studies that have shown > that > > >> the prople who profess the most faith in AA (namely, it worked > for > > >> them) are, by their scores on the MMPI, not the most > psychologically > > >> > > >> healthy. I cannot remember the sources, but they were once sent > > >> into > > >> this list by someone, I believe. > > > > > > I would be extremely interested in having that information, if > anyone > > > " out > > > here " still has it. > > > > > > --Mona-- > > > > Mona, > > > > I'm not sure if this is the study referred to but probably is: > > > > Brandesma JM, Maultsby MC, and Welsh RJ, " The Outpatient Treatment > of > > Alcoholism: A Review and Comparative Study. " Balktimore: University > > Park Press, 1980 > > > > Here is what I wrote on the study (from " The Real AA " copyright 1991 > Ken > > Ragge): > > > > __________________________________________________________ > > > > In another study of court-referred treatment, done in Lexington, > > Kentucky, 197 alcoholic patients took part.i They were randomly > divided > > into five groups: professional " insight " therapy; professional > behavior > > therapy; lay-led behavior therapy; AA; and a no-treatment control > group. > > Of > > the 197 patients who began therapy, 104 were still available for the > > one-year final outcome study. > > Of the subjective measures, perhaps the most telling is the number > of > > respondents who reported improvement for the final three months. AA > tied > > with the no-treatment control group for the smallest percentage of > those > > who could report improvement. One of the professional groups and the > lay > > group fared remarkably better. All groups had some members who > attended > > AA but the lay-led group, which reported the best results on this > > measure, had the least intense AA involvement. > > Compounding this pathetic outcome for AA is that the 12 who stuck > with > > AA for the year scored progressively worse on two important MMPI > > (Minnesota Multiphasic Personality Inventory) scales. One of these, > the > > Finney Addiction Scale, is used to identify people who have trouble > with > > narcotics by measuring the personality qualities such people tend to > > have. The AA members became more like the kind of people who have > > narcotics problems. > > The other measure, called the Hysteria Scale, is related to people > who > > have somatic complaints and to the denial of difficulties. The AA > group, > > the group that reported the least success, was also the one most > > inclined to hide its difficulties. > > > > _________________________________________________________ > > > > Ken Ragge Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 5, 2001 Report Share Posted June 5, 2001 > My rehab gave the MMPI too. My score? Absolutely normal. Everything > within normal boundaries. A little high on the paranoia scale, but > nevertheless, not over the normal range, and they conceded that that > was pretty typical for lawyers (always envisioning the worst case > scenario). > > I doubt they've stopped, but the large question is, why did they do it > in the first place? Everybody got exactly the same treatment. Maybe > it was just $$$$$. Hi Kayleigh, I think the thing is mainly a CYA, like the way they have you screened once by a shrink and a psychologist (they did at my place, which seems to be SOP) in case they might otherwise miss something that could get them sued. Ive heard that slightly elevated paranoia is correlated with being a good lawyer. I quipped with Peele about it but if he found it funny he didnt say so. My bro always said I should have been a lawyer, and I guess Ive got the paranois for it. P. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 5, 2001 Report Share Posted June 5, 2001 Ken, this is fascinating. Let me answer all of these questions as I would have answered them on March 26, 1997, and then as I would have answered them on March 26, 1998. Then, I wish to explore if this means I fit the alcoholic "self-pity" profile, or something else entirely. #543: Several times a week I feel as if something dreadful is about to happen. #494: I am afraid of finding myself in a closet or small closed place. #365: I feel uneasy indoors. 1997: No, no, no. 1998: emphatic yes, no, no int about alcoholics. They can lie. #202: I believe I am a condemned person. #484: I have one or more faults which are so big that it seems better to accept them and try to control them rather than to try to get rid of them. 1997: fucking no way, yes 1998: yes, yes #157: I feel that I have often been punished without cause. #338: I have certainly had more than my share of things to worry about. 1997: no, no 1998: yes, yes #469: I have often found people jealous of my good ideas, just because they had not thought of them first. #331: If people had not had it in for me I would have been much more successful. #507: I have frequently worked under people who seem to have things arranged so that they get credit for good work but are able to pass of mistakes onto those under them. 1997: no, no, no 1998: no, yes, no The day after March 26, 1997, my oldest son was killed in a car accident. My husband and I spent the next three days discussing with medical examiners and morticians whether the body was too mutilated for an open casket -- just barely, it was open, and it was entirely obvious what the concerns had been. Two months later, my husband of 21 years, nuts with grief, left me to live a partying lifestyle as a bisexual. By the end of that year the dearest friend I have ever had, had asked me to relocate to Manhattan where I knew no one else, and join him as a partner in his law firm. However, he found my grief off-putting and, as is not uncommon for newly bereaved parents to experience with friends who cannot handle it, he abandoned me from virtually the moment I stepped off the plane. My 18-year-old surviving son was supposed to have come with me so I wouldn't be going to NYC alone, but then announced, three months after his brother died, that his 15-year-old girlfriend was pregnant and having the baby, so he was staying with her. I went insane. Everyone I loved was suddenly either dying, or leaving me voluntarily, and my remaining son was trapping himself in teenage parenthood. And I was alone in this big strange city where the only person I knew was completely unwilling to spend time in my presence, beyond that absolutely necessary at the office, where he radiated cold discomfort becasue I was Mother of the Dead. From being a happy, self-confident and spunky woman who didn't take crap from anyone, I went to being a listless, frightened and morose drone. And drink? Beginning at that point, like a friggin' fiend. Is anyone going to seriously tell me that if I felt condemned and that I was suddenly being punished, there was not adequate pressure brought to bear to render such feelings understandable? Did I not have an alcoholic personality one day, and then had developed it by a year later? Did I really need to have my ego deflated? <pffft> AA believes all drunks follow essentially the same drinking trajectory, and have the same defects of character that cause this "disease." They are as wrong as they can be. --Mona-- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 5, 2001 Report Share Posted June 5, 2001 Oh, what the hell. How can they justify treating someone who's perfectly normal? In the way they do? That's far from a CYA. That's an issue that's going to raise the question " Why did you treat her if she's normal? " > > My rehab gave the MMPI too. My score? Absolutely normal. > Everything > > within normal boundaries. A little high on the paranoia scale, but > > nevertheless, not over the normal range, and they conceded that that > > was pretty typical for lawyers (always envisioning the worst case > > scenario). > > > > I doubt they've stopped, but the large question is, why did they do > it > > in the first place? Everybody got exactly the same treatment. > Maybe > > it was just $$$$$. > > Hi Kayleigh, > > I think the thing is mainly a CYA, like the way they have you screened > once by a shrink and a psychologist (they did at my place, which seems > to be SOP) in case they might otherwise miss something that could get > them sued. Ive heard that slightly elevated paranoia is correlated > with being a good lawyer. I quipped with Peele about it but if he > found it funny he didnt say so. My bro always said I should have been > a lawyer, and I guess Ive got the paranois for it. > > P. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 5, 2001 Report Share Posted June 5, 2001 > Oh, what the hell. How can they justify treating someone who's > perfectly normal? In the way they do? That's far from a CYA. That's > an issue that's going to raise the question " Why did you treat her if > she's normal? " I hadnt thought of that one. Of course, they reckon that they have the handle on something called " addictive disease " that doesnt feature in the regular diagnostic manuals. Alcohol/substance abuse/dependence are held to occur as a *result* of this disease, and are not the disease itself. Its theoretical basis, such as it is, is essentially merely endogenous mood disorders, but they cant call it that, because that begs the question as to why not everyone with a mood disorder develops an addiction - as well as also begging the question as to why standard mood disorder treatments are not only not used but may be actively avoided (such as medication). As such therefore they are out on a limb - though I've no doubt that on the insurance claims the regular DSM/ICD dxes are what are billed for. The whole thing is really outrageous. P. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 5, 2001 Report Share Posted June 5, 2001 This reminds me of something I've wondered about for a long time. I also took the MMPI in treatment, as well as an IQ test. They never told me what my IQ score was. Their reasoning for this was that, as a person suffering from an eating disorder, I was naturally a perfectionist and would not be happy if my score was not " perfect " . This seemed ridiculous to me, of course, even back then. I would have been happy with " smart enough " . It was thin I was worried about. Anyway, I've always wondered about what happened to those scores and any records they would have kept on me while in treatment. This was 15 years ago. Do they still exist somewhere, and, if so, do I have a right to see them? Does anyone know how long this stuff stays around? Surely they can't hang onto the records of every single person who goes through a 28 day program forever. I'm concerned primarily because, as I have mentioned before, I was admitted as an alcoholic because my insurance did not cover bulimia. Even though I went on later in life to (perhaps) fit some description of this, I certainly did not at 18, and I am curious to know if a record still exists saying I was a teenaged drunk. Plus, I'd like to see that IQ score. Joan > > > My rehab gave the MMPI too. My score? Absolutely normal. > > Everything > > > within normal boundaries. A little high on the paranoia scale, > but > > > nevertheless, not over the normal range, and they conceded that > that > > > was pretty typical for lawyers (always envisioning the worst case > > > scenario). > > > > > > I doubt they've stopped, but the large question is, why did they > do > > it > > > in the first place? Everybody got exactly the same treatment. > > Maybe > > > it was just $$$$$. > > > > Hi Kayleigh, > > > > I think the thing is mainly a CYA, like the way they have you > screened > > once by a shrink and a psychologist (they did at my place, which > seems > > to be SOP) in case they might otherwise miss something that could > get > > them sued. Ive heard that slightly elevated paranoia is correlated > > with being a good lawyer. I quipped with Peele about it but if he > > found it funny he didnt say so. My bro always said I should have > been > > a lawyer, and I guess Ive got the paranois for it. > > > > P. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 5, 2001 Report Share Posted June 5, 2001 Hi there, > Oh, what the hell. How can they justify treating someone who's > perfectly normal? In the way they do? That's far from a CYA. That's > an issue that's going to raise the question " Why did you treat her if > she's normal? " I have never heard that there was an association between MMPI results and " alcoholism. " Probably by the time I got there they'd dropped it because it had no meaning. They never gave it to us. How did you get mixed up with these people in the first place? :/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 5, 2001 Report Share Posted June 5, 2001 If the record still exists, you absolutely have a right to see it, but whether or not it still exists is a matter of state law. In most places, unless you are in a small town, there are lawyers who do pro bono work advising clients what to do about question like this. Check out the local bar associaion and see whether you can get some advice. > > > > My rehab gave the MMPI too. My score? Absolutely normal. > > > Everything > > > > within normal boundaries. A little high on the paranoia scale, > > but > > > > nevertheless, not over the normal range, and they conceded that > > that > > > > was pretty typical for lawyers (always envisioning the worst > case > > > > scenario). > > > > > > > > I doubt they've stopped, but the large question is, why did > they > > do > > > it > > > > in the first place? Everybody got exactly the same treatment. > > > Maybe > > > > it was just $$$$$. > > > > > > Hi Kayleigh, > > > > > > I think the thing is mainly a CYA, like the way they have you > > screened > > > once by a shrink and a psychologist (they did at my place, which > > seems > > > to be SOP) in case they might otherwise miss something that could > > get > > > them sued. Ive heard that slightly elevated paranoia is > correlated > > > with being a good lawyer. I quipped with Peele about it but if > he > > > found it funny he didnt say so. My bro always said I should have > > been > > > a lawyer, and I guess Ive got the paranois for it. > > > > > > P. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 5, 2001 Report Share Posted June 5, 2001 There is a measure on the MMPI called the Macs Scale that supposedly can discern who is alcoholic and who is not. As to the treatment center: I was referred there by supposedly knowledgeable people. > > Hi there, > > > Oh, what the hell. How can they justify treating someone who's > > perfectly normal? In the way they do? That's far from a CYA. > That's > > an issue that's going to raise the question " Why did you treat her > if > > she's normal? " > > I have never heard that there was an association between MMPI results > and " alcoholism. " Probably by the time I got there they'd dropped it > because it had no meaning. They never gave it to us. > > How did you get mixed up with these people in the first place? :/ > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 5, 2001 Report Share Posted June 5, 2001 > There is a measure on the MMPI called the Macs Scale that > supposedly can discern who is alcoholic and who is not. Really? I havent heard that before. I wonder how much better it is than merely asking drinking history. Worse than I bet. So, did Macs discern you liked a wee dram of Scots gold or not? P. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 5, 2001 Report Share Posted June 5, 2001 According to the Macs Scale I am not alcoholic. > > There is a measure on the MMPI called the Macs Scale that > > supposedly can discern who is alcoholic and who is not. > > Really? I havent heard that before. I wonder how much better it is > than merely asking drinking history. Worse than I bet. So, did > Macs discern you liked a wee dram of Scots gold or not? > > P. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 5, 2001 Report Share Posted June 5, 2001 > According to the Macs Scale I am not alcoholic. Kayleighs, I bet you passed the IQ test too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 5, 2001 Report Share Posted June 5, 2001 What's to pass? Everyone's got an IQ. Clap for me. > > According to the Macs Scale I am not alcoholic. > > Kayleighs, > > I bet you passed the IQ test too. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 5, 2001 Report Share Posted June 5, 2001 kayleighs@... wrote: > There is a measure on the MMPI called the Macs Scale that > supposedly can discern who is alcoholic and who is not. > > As to the treatment center: I was referred there by supposedly > knowledgeable people. Kayleigh, I'm wondering if you are referring to Mac's Substance Abuse Proclivity Profile. Below is from the appendices of " The Real AA. " (copyright 1991, Ken Ragge) __________________________________________________ C: The Substance Abuse Proclivity Profile (SAP) The SAP is an excellent example of the use of an extremely useful tool, the MMPI, to “prove” AA doctrine and to gain acceptability for AA language. The SAP successfully discriminates between young male substance abusers, putative normals, and non-substance-abusing psychiatric outpatients. It is useful for those between the ages of 13 and 26. Validity falls off rapidly afterward. The scale is divided into three “factors”: “Extroversion,” “Rebelliousness” and “Self-Pity.” While there is room for criticism of designer Mac’s analysis of the first two factors, the third is most interesting. AA doctrine asserts that the alcoholic is guilty of self-pity. The SAP scale proves it. Substance abusers score high on “Self-Pity.” A look at the 10 questions which make up the self-pity factor, however, shows more ideology (or perhaps theology) than “Self-Pity.” My Webster’s Dictionary defines self-pity as “pity for oneself.” It defines pity as “sympathy with the grief or misery of another.” The dictionary definition does not discriminate between what we may find distasteful or pathological from what is expected and considered normal and natural. What Mac refers to is related to a distasteful or pathological “pity for oneself.” This is made clear in his statement, “Since it is Self-Pity that unifies this ‘litany of lamentations,’ that is how I have labeled this factor.” Three of the self-pity factor questions deal with vague fears. #543: Several times a week I feel as if something dreadful is about to happen. #494: I am afraid of finding myself in a closet or small closed place. #365: I feel uneasy indoors. Substance abusers are more likely to answer “True” to the three questions. Mac holds this as substance abusers’ inclination to “portray themselves as victims.” If young substance abusers have these vague fears in disproportion to other groups, which apparently they do, they have two choices when asked if they do. They can either tell the truth and prove “self-pity” by marking these questions “True” or they can prove another doctrinal point about alcoholics. They can lie. #202: I believe I am a condemned person. #484: I have one or more faults which are so big that it seems better to accept them and try to control them rather than to try to get rid of them. Mac holds the tendency to respond “True” to these as again “portray[ing] themselves as victims.” It seems much more accurate, given the situation of taking the MMPI, that respondents are merely expressing honest beliefs about themselves based in learned helplessness. There are also other possibilities. The respondents are in treatment where they are being pressured to admit that they are “powerless over alcohol.” They are constantly being pressured to admit the flaws which prove their disease. They are also learning that they can’t change their faults and must wait until Step Seven, “Humbly asked God to remove our shortcomings,” for the program to change them. Rather than “self-pity,” perhaps the answers to these questions reveal treatment “success.” Since those who abuse alcohol and drugs often come from disordered homes and have a high frequency of one or both parents being alcohol or drug abusers, “accurate estimation of circumstances” may well be a better interpretation of the “True” response given by young substance abusers to the following questions. #157: I feel that I have often been punished without cause. #338: I have certainly had more than my share of things to worry about. It would seem that just being in treatment for substance abuse is more than most people have to worry about. To state such when asked is hardly part of a “litany of lamentations.” Answering “True” to the remaining three questions can also be viewed as evidence of “self-pity.” “True” answers to these questions can also, however, be seen as the result of growing up (or partially growing up) in a family in which there was intense competition be-tween siblings for limited parental attention, approval and affection. #469: I have often found people jealous of my good ideas, just because they had not thought of them first. #331: If people had not had it in for me I would have been much more successful. #507: I have frequently worked under people who seem to have things arranged so that they get credit for good work but are able to pass of mistakes onto those under them. Mac sums up the information provided by the SAP scale: From a remedial perspective it would seem, . . . that when this sort of mordant self-absorption is detected, ‘treatment’ might profitably focus upon its radical transformation. No doubt many young substance abusers would benefit from therapy in which they learned to clearly recognize their fears and put them in a proper perspective. Anything which counteracted their pervasive sense of helplessness, their lack of self-efficacy, would be helpful. They would benefit from support for their rightness in a wrong environment. They could learn that the jealousy and competition that exist in their home environments are far from universal, and that as they grow up they have increasing power to choose their associates. Mac’s analysis leads to a diagnosis of substance abuse with a definition of the substance abuser as more or less a self-pitying wretch. This logically leads to “treatment” for learned helplessness which begins with confessing “I am powerless” and to “treatment” for vague fears which consists of learning that fear is “an evil and corroding thread.” Success at suppressing fear would make the young substance abuser more like his adult addict and alcoholic counterparts. After “treatment,” he would be more likely to respond “True” to the MMPI’s “Evil spirits possess me at times” than prior to “treatment.” Young male substance abusers do differ from “putative normal” college students. But it is questionable how much they differ from the average young person. The “Self-Pity Factor” shows that they are having difficulties growing up, but longitudinal studies show that they do grow up. That is, of course, unless they get what Mac himself needs to put in quotes, “treatment.” Regardless of how high young substance abusers score on the Self-Pity Factor, “self-pity” is a gross misnomer and is of scant diagnostic value in treatment. The grouping of the above questions under the title “Self-Pity Factor” only serves to lend an air of respectability to AA doctrine and to give respectability to AA’s loaded language. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 5, 2001 Report Share Posted June 5, 2001 > Oops! Here is the excerpt. > > > C: The Substance Abuse Proclivity > Profile (SAP) > > The SAP is an excellent example of the use of an extremely useful tool, the MMPI, to “prove” AA doctrine and to gain acceptability for AA language. The SAP successfully discriminates between young male substance abusers, putative normals, and non-substance-abusing psychiatric outpatients. It is useful for those between the ages of 13 and 26. Validity falls off rapidly afterward. > The scale is divided into three “factors”: “Extroversion,” “Rebelliousness” and “Self-Pity.” While there is room for criticism of designer Mac’s analysis of the first two factors, the third is most interesting. > AA doctrine asserts that the alcoholic is guilty of self-pity. The SAP scale proves it. Substance abusers score high on “Self-Pity.” A look at the 10 questions which make up the self-pity factor, however, shows more ideology (or perhaps theology) than “Self-Pity.” > My Webster’s Dictionary defines self-pity as “pity for oneself.” It defines pity as “sympathy with the grief or misery of another.” The dictionary definition does not discriminate between what we may find distasteful or pathological from what is expected and considered normal and natural. > What Mac refers to is related to a distasteful or pathological “pity for oneself.” This is made clear in his statement, “Since it is Self-Pity that unifies this ‘litany of lamentations,’ that is how I have labeled this factor.” > Three of the self-pity factor questions deal with vague fears. > > #543: Several times a week I feel as if something dreadful is about to happen. > #494: I am afraid of finding myself in a closet or small closed place. > #365: I feel uneasy indoors. > > Substance abusers are more likely to answer “True” to the three questions. Mac holds this as substance abusers’ inclination to “portray themselves as victims.” > If young substance abusers have these vague fears in disproportion to other groups, which apparently they do, they have two choices when asked if they do. They can either tell the truth and prove “self-pity” by marking these questions “True” or they can prove another doctrinal point about alcoholics. They can lie. > > #202: I believe I am a condemned person. > #484: I have one or more faults which are so big that it seems better to accept them and try to control them rather than to try to get rid of them. > > Mac holds the tendency to respond “True” to these as again “portray[ing] themselves as victims.” It seems much more accurate, given the situation of taking the MMPI, that respondents are merely expressing honest beliefs about themselves based in learned helplessness. There are also other possibilities. The respondents are in treatment where they are being pressured to admit that they are “powerless over alcohol.” They are constantly being pressured to admit the flaws which prove their disease. They are also learning that they can’t change their faults and must wait until Step Seven, “Humbly asked God to remove our shortcomings,” for the program to change them. Rather than “self-pity,” perhaps the answers to these questions reveal treatment “success.” > Since those who abuse alcohol and drugs often come from disordered homes and have a high frequency of one or both parents being alcohol or drug abusers, “accurate estimation of circumstances” may well be a better interpretation of the “True” response given by young substance abusers to the following questions. > > #157: I feel that I have often been punished without cause. > #338: I have certainly had more than my share of things to worry about. > > It would seem that just being in treatment for substance abuse is more than most people have to worry about. To state such when asked is hardly part of a “litany of lamentations.” > Answering “True” to the remaining three questions can also be viewed as evidence of “self-pity.” “True” answers to these questions can also, however, be seen as the result of growing up (or partially growing up) in a family in which there was intense competition be-tween siblings for limited parental attention, approval and affection. > > #469: I have often found people jealous of my good ideas, just because they had not thought of them first. > #331: If people had not had it in for me I would have been much more successful. > #507: I have frequently worked under people who seem to have things arranged so that they get credit for good work but are able to pass of mistakes onto those under them. > > Mac sums up the information provided by the SAP scale: > > >From a remedial perspective it would seem, . . . that when this sort of mordant self-absorption is detected, ‘treatment’ might profitably focus upon its radical transformation. > > No doubt many young substance abusers would benefit from therapy in which they learned to clearly recognize their fears and put them in a proper perspective. Anything which counteracted their pervasive sense of helplessness, their lack of self-efficacy, would be helpful. They would benefit from support for their rightness in a wrong environment. They could learn that the jealousy and competition that exist in their home environments are far from universal, and that as they grow up they have increasing power to choose their associates. > Mac’s analysis leads to a diagnosis of substance abuse with a definition of the substance abuser as more or less a self-pitying wretch. This logically leads to “treatment” for learned helplessness which begins with confessing “I am powerless” and to “treatment” for vague fears which consists of learning that fear is “an evil and corroding thread.” Success at suppressing fear would make the young substance abuser more like his adult addict and alcoholic counterparts. After “treatment,” he would be more likely to respond “True” to the MMPI’s “Evil spirits possess me at times” than prior to “treatment.” > Young male substance abusers do differ from “putative normal” college students. But it is questionable how much they differ from the average young person. The “Self-Pity Factor” shows that they are having difficulties growing up, but longitudinal studies show that they do grow up. That is, of course, unless they get what Mac himself needs to put in quotes, “treatment.” > Regardless of how high young substance abusers score on the Self-Pity Factor, “self-pity” is a gross misnomer and is of scant diagnostic value in treatment. The grouping of the above questions under the title “Self-Pity Factor” only serves to lend an air of respectability to AA doctrine and to give respectability to AA’s loaded language. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 5, 2001 Report Share Posted June 5, 2001 > What's to pass? Everyone's got an IQ. Clap for me. Damn, and here I thought I was <wnl>! Hardass! Just like my son. And how about all that typing I did? I thought this was a friggin' support group! <G> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 6, 2001 Report Share Posted June 6, 2001 > > Regardless of how high young substance abusers score on the Self-Pity Factor, " self-pity " is a gross misnomer and is of scant diagnostic value in treatment. The grouping of the above questions under the title " Self-Pity Factor " only serves to lend an air of respectability to AA doctrine and to give respectability to AA's loaded language. > --------------------- Ken -- you are so right about the AA-doctrinal assumptions that " assessments " are often based on. It isn't just the Macs profile of course. I am still subject to " follow-up assessments " by my EAP, and I am NEVER asked anything about drinking or drugs -- instead, I am questioned about my " resentments " and apparently evaluated for my level of " belligerence " -- and in my official files are statements such as " Client continues to display alcoholic attitudes and personality characteristics. " It is crystal-clear to me that the goal of " recovery " has little relation to sobriety, but rather to fulfilling the 12-step ideal of a complacent, " grateful " airhead who has NO interest in any " outside " (i.e. important) issues, but rather practices " acceptance " continually. Obviously, I am not " in recovery " , nor will I ever be. ~Rita Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 6, 2001 Report Share Posted June 6, 2001 Hi, > > Obviously, I am not " in recovery " , nor will I ever be. > > ~Rita He, he, he, he! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 6, 2001 Report Share Posted June 6, 2001 > According to the Macs Scale I am not alcoholic. But they went ahead and " treated " you for it anyway? Out of sight. P. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 6, 2001 Report Share Posted June 6, 2001 > What's to pass? Everyone's got an IQ. Clap for me. Not some of the groupers you encounter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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