Re: Holocaust knowledge - again.

June 3, 2001

Now suppose you are in a real-life situation where you know without a doubt that unless you do what a martial authority demands, not only you, but also your family, would lose their lives. It's easy to be a Monday morning quarterback. But I suggest that no one on this list, without exception, knows what they would really do, because they have never been in such a situation, and hence has not a foot to stand on when criticizing the Germans' lack of resistance.

All very well put. And if that gun were to my head, I'd friggin' slurp the stuff down as well. Duh. <eyes rolling>

--Mona--

June 3, 2001

Let us assume that every single one did know. As I've asked (and

he hasn't yet answered), what would you have had them do? They could

all have worn Stars of , I suppose, but at the time this was

required of the Jews I don't believe there had been any real action

against the Jews. So at the time when they would all have known

(whenever that was), what should they have done?

I ask this not because I am a Nazi sympathizer, but because I think

that the question of human motivation, influence and behavior is a lot

more complicated than people would like to believe. Once in an AA

meeting the topic was proposed, " Would you drink if someone were

holding a gun to your head? " (Inane question.) As we went around the

room, everyone, to a man (and they were mostly men) said " No. " When

it was my turn, I said, " Hell, yes! " And I firmly believe for that

every one of those men would have taken a drink if death were the

alternative.

People are not good judges of what they would do in situations they

haven't lived through. All of us assume that we would not have

shocked Milgram's subjects because we know we're the " good guys. " But

very few of us have lived through situations that have truly tested

our principles to that degree, and remember, no matter what else

Milgram's subjects may have believed, they knew it was " only an

experiment. " Obviously this had an effect on their behavior as well.

Now suppose you are in a real-life situation where you know without a

doubt that unless you do what a martial authority demands, not only

you, but also your family, would lose their lives. It's easy to be a

Monday morning quarterback. But I suggest that no one on this list,

without exception, knows what they would really do, because they

have never been in such a situation, and hence has not a foot to stand

on when criticizing the Germans' lack of resistance.

>

> I'm not a literate on this question, and before it became a thread

on the list I never gave it much thought even though both my parents

and their respective families were heavily influenced by nazi crimes.

>

> During my childhood none of my parents said anything demeaning about

the Germans as such, so I must have reckoned they were innocent

victims to nazi suppression.

>

> But I'm not that sure anymore.

>

> I've 'googled' on the net, and to me I've found this chapter from an

Australian Christian,Ian Fry, most educating for my somewhat different

views.

>

> http://www.troubleinthetriangle.com/ch18.htm

>

> I think the question of the " Zeitgeist " is far more important than

normally appreciated, and to me it seems that both scientific,

economical and religious trends supported Hitler's take over.

> Actually Hitler tried to halt the edition of 'Mein Kampf' because he

suspected it to be more anti-Jewish than appropriate. But he was

proven wrong! They loved his attacks.

>

> The next link is about Christianity in Germany, which have changed

my views on my Christian heritage.

>

> http://www.gate.net/~zardoz/ChurchesWWII.htm

>

> Here you can read about monks massacring Christians in Croatia, and

nuns participating in military parades giving fascist salutes.

>

> 'What did they think of the Jews?

>

> I've been an atheist since I was 12, but slowly I've been more and

more pleased of my Christian heritage as a moral principle. But I'm

not that sure about this anymore.

>

> Well, but it's more.

>

> The Germans was the first to discover the power of moving pictures

as a tool for propaganda, and during war time the Germans was

presented to " Wochen Revyen " in the bios.

>

> I've seen one of them which I think is quite famous. It was about

the similarity between rats and Jews. First we saw some Jewish faces,

and slowly they changed into rats that were spreading diseases and

that should be extinguished to secure the Aryan nation from threats.

Similar to the spreading of the plague, the Black Death.

>

> After the war, there seemed to be an agreement not to bother the

Germans with the past, and they were not at all willing to talk about

it themselves.

>

> I once saw a Danish documentary where journalists was asking a

neighbor to a Jew if she knew anything about what happened. At first

she said that she knew nothing, but pressured she went mad and accused

the journalists of accusing her for something she didn't know anything

about.

> Later she cried and admitted that she knew, but that she was

helpless. The denial defense was obvious. I'm convinced about this

being a common defense against shame for not doing the right thing.

>

> This thread has convinced me that the Germans knew a lot more than

they have admitted. How many who was accurately informed on specific

atrocities is not important, the main conclusion is that they knew,

and did next to nothing to stop it.

>

> As far as I'm concerned I believe the only decent thing to do is to

stop finding excuses.

>

> Bjørn

>

> P.S.

>

> My father's one year younger brother was sentenced to a German

concentration camp but survived.

> After the war he continued his work in the Norwegian military,

married and had two daughters.

>

> He is one of the softest and gentle persons I know, and I never

heard him complain about anything.

>

> I've only heard this.Once, when he was in his sixties he could not

go around the Christmas tree and sing the usual hymns. Instead he sat

down and tears were rolling down his cheeks.

>

> They asked him what was wrong, and he said that when he was in this

German camp the Germans hung some of his friends in a kind of tree and

forced the others to go around it and sing Christmas songs.

>

> He just couldn't take the memories, otherwise I would have known

nothing.

>

> So really I don't care about what you're saying on the subject. As

far as I'm concerned - they knew.

June 3, 2001

I'm fully aware of the dilemma your drawing.

But then imagine if nobody opposed. What would be the result of that?

As I see it, somebody has to do it, but it don't give them the right to harass the rest. But it's tempting, though.

Like in the Kurosawa movie, ''The Seven Samurais".

Bjørn

Re: Holocaust knowledge - again.

Let us assume that every single one did know. As I've asked (and he hasn't yet answered), what would you have had them do? They could all have worn Stars of , I suppose, but at the time this was required of the Jews I don't believe there had been any real action against the Jews. So at the time when they would all have known (whenever that was), what should they have done?I ask this not because I am a Nazi sympathizer, but because I think that the question of human motivation, influence and behavior is a lot more complicated than people would like to believe. Once in an AA meeting the topic was proposed, "Would you drink if someone were holding a gun to your head?" (Inane question.) As we went around the room, everyone, to a man (and they were mostly men) said "No." When it was my turn, I said, "Hell, yes!" And I firmly believe for that every one of those men would have taken a drink if death were the alternative.People are not good judges of what they would do in situations they haven't lived through. All of us assume that we would not have shocked Milgram's subjects because we know we're the "good guys." But very few of us have lived through situations that have truly tested our principles to that degree, and remember, no matter what else Milgram's subjects may have believed, they knew it was "only an experiment." Obviously this had an effect on their behavior as well.Now suppose you are in a real-life situation where you know without a doubt that unless you do what a martial authority demands, not only you, but also your family, would lose their lives. It's easy to be a Monday morning quarterback. But I suggest that no one on this list, without exception, knows what they would really do, because they have never been in such a situation, and hence has not a foot to stand on when criticizing the Germans' lack of resistance.> > I'm not a literate on this question, and before it became a thread on the list I never gave it much thought even though both my parents and their respective families were heavily influenced by nazi crimes.> > During my childhood none of my parents said anything demeaning about the Germans as such, so I must have reckoned they were innocent victims to nazi suppression.> > But I'm not that sure anymore.> > I've 'googled' on the net, and to me I've found this chapter from an Australian Christian,Ian Fry, most educating for my somewhat different views.> > http://www.troubleinthetriangle.com/ch18.htm> > I think the question of the "Zeitgeist" is far more important than normally appreciated, and to me it seems that both scientific, economical and religious trends supported Hitler's take over.> Actually Hitler tried to halt the edition of 'Mein Kampf' because he suspected it to be more anti-Jewish than appropriate. But he was proven wrong! They loved his attacks.> > The next link is about Christianity in Germany, which have changed my views on my Christian heritage.> > http://www.gate.net/~zardoz/ChurchesWWII.htm> > Here you can read about monks massacring Christians in Croatia, and nuns participating in military parades giving fascist salutes.> > 'What did they think of the Jews?> > I've been an atheist since I was 12, but slowly I've been more and more pleased of my Christian heritage as a moral principle. But I'm not that sure about this anymore.> > Well, but it's more.> > The Germans was the first to discover the power of moving pictures as a tool for propaganda, and during war time the Germans was presented to "Wochen Revyen" in the bios.> > I've seen one of them which I think is quite famous. It was about the similarity between rats and Jews. First we saw some Jewish faces, and slowly they changed into rats that were spreading diseases and that should be extinguished to secure the Aryan nation from threats. Similar to the spreading of the plague, the Black Death.> > After the war, there seemed to be an agreement not to bother the Germans with the past, and they were not at all willing to talk about it themselves.> > I once saw a Danish documentary where journalists was asking a neighbor to a Jew if she knew anything about what happened. At first she said that she knew nothing, but pressured she went mad and accused the journalists of accusing her for something she didn't know anything about.> Later she cried and admitted that she knew, but that she was helpless. The denial defense was obvious. I'm convinced about this being a common defense against shame for not doing the right thing.> > This thread has convinced me that the Germans knew a lot more than they have admitted. How many who was accurately informed on specific atrocities is not important, the main conclusion is that they knew, and did next to nothing to stop it.> > As far as I'm concerned I believe the only decent thing to do is to stop finding excuses.> > Bjørn> > P.S.> > My father's one year younger brother was sentenced to a German concentration camp but survived.> After the war he continued his work in the Norwegian military, married and had two daughters.> > He is one of the softest and gentle persons I know, and I never heard him complain about anything.> > I've only heard this.Once, when he was in his sixties he could not go around the Christmas tree and sing the usual hymns. Instead he sat down and tears were rolling down his cheeks.> > They asked him what was wrong, and he said that when he was in this German camp the Germans hung some of his friends in a kind of tree and forced the others to go around it and sing Christmas songs.> > He just couldn't take the memories, otherwise I would have known nothing.> > So really I don't care about what you're saying on the subject. As far as I'm concerned - they knew.

June 3, 2001

Never saw the Seven Samurai, but now I guess I better watch it.

Still, you don't say what people should do. Do you have an idea????

What they should have done???? It's not as though individuals didn't

take great risks to do small things (such as protecting one family

instead of bombing Hitler's bunker). Won't you give them some credit?

> I'm fully aware of the dilemma your drawing.

>

> But then imagine if nobody opposed. What would be the result of

that?

>

> As I see it, somebody has to do it, but it don't give them the right

to harass the rest. But it's tempting, though.

> Like in the Kurosawa movie, ''The Seven Samurais " .

>

> Bjørn

>

June 3, 2001

Hi.

What's bravery for one person might be easy for another.

As a complete coward myself I will give credit to anybody jeopardizing his own interests to help another person.

I don't think my own motives and actions should be elevated to a common moral law for the rest of humanity, I'm only doing and thinking what I think is right.

BTW.

The Danes sailed the Danish Jews to Sweden. Did they know about their destiny if they didn't? Of course they did!

How could it be that the Germans didn't know?

Beats me!

Bjørn

Re: Holocaust knowledge - again.

Never saw the Seven Samurai, but now I guess I better watch it.Still, you don't say what people should do. Do you have an idea???? What they should have done???? It's not as though individuals didn't take great risks to do small things (such as protecting one family instead of bombing Hitler's bunker). Won't you give them some credit?> I'm fully aware of the dilemma your drawing.> > But then imagine if nobody opposed. What would be the result of that?> > As I see it, somebody has to do it, but it don't give them the right to harass the rest. But it's tempting, though.> Like in the Kurosawa movie, ''The Seven Samurais".> > Bjørn>

June 3, 2001

It sneaked up on the Germans. It didn't sneak up on the Danes.

> > I'm fully aware of the dilemma your drawing.

> >

> > But then imagine if nobody opposed. What would be the result of

> that?

> >

> > As I see it, somebody has to do it, but it don't give them the

right

> to harass the rest. But it's tempting, though.

> > Like in the Kurosawa movie, ''The Seven Samurais " .

> >

> > Bjørn

> >

>

June 3, 2001

Sneaked up!?

I guess you by this statement acknowledge they did know, but they didn't do the right thing because they were sneaked up.

I'm convinced the soil was 'cultivated', and that they let themselves being sneaked up.

I can understand their actions, but anyway I think they should have behaved otherwise.

Acceptance and understanding are not always synonyms.

Personally I can easily understand actions that I don't approve.

b.

Re: Holocaust knowledge - again.

It sneaked up on the Germans. It didn't sneak up on the Danes.> > I'm fully aware of the dilemma your drawing.> > > > But then imagine if nobody opposed. What would be the result of > that?> > > > As I see it, somebody has to do it, but it don't give them the right > to harass the rest. But it's tempting, though.> > Like in the Kurosawa movie, ''The Seven Samurais".> > > > Bjørn> > > > >

June 3, 2001

No, I think you have misunderstood. When the German Jews were first

ordered to wear Stars of , there was no knowledge that this

entailed the draconian measures that followed -- that they could not

work, could not attend school, would be deported to labor camps, etc.

By the time the Germans invaded Denmark, it was well known how the

Jews would be treated.

> > > I'm fully aware of the dilemma your drawing.

> > >

> > > But then imagine if nobody opposed. What would be the result

of

> > that?

> > >

> > > As I see it, somebody has to do it, but it don't give them

the

> right

> > to harass the rest. But it's tempting, though.

> > > Like in the Kurosawa movie, ''The Seven Samurais " .

> > >

> > > Bjørn

> > >

> >

June 3, 2001

> >

> > I'm not a literate on this question, and before it became a

thread

> on the list I never gave it much thought even though both my

parents

> and their respective families were heavily influenced by nazi

crimes.

> >

> > During my childhood none of my parents said anything demeaning

about

> the Germans as such, so I must have reckoned they were innocent

> victims to nazi suppression.

> >

> > But I'm not that sure anymore.

> >

> > I've 'googled' on the net, and to me I've found this chapter

from an

> Australian Christian,Ian Fry, most educating for my somewhat

different

> views.

> >

> > http://www.troubleinthetriangle.com/ch18.htm

> >

> > I think the question of the " Zeitgeist " is far more important

than

> normally appreciated, and to me it seems that both scientific,

> economical and religious trends supported Hitler's take over.

> > Actually Hitler tried to halt the edition of 'Mein Kampf'

because he

> suspected it to be more anti-Jewish than appropriate. But he was

> proven wrong! They loved his attacks.

> >

> > The next link is about Christianity in Germany, which have

changed

> my views on my Christian heritage.

> >

> > http://www.gate.net/~zardoz/ChurchesWWII.htm

> >

> > Here you can read about monks massacring Christians in Croatia,

and

> nuns participating in military parades giving fascist salutes.

> >

> > 'What did they think of the Jews?

> >

> > I've been an atheist since I was 12, but slowly I've been more

and

> more pleased of my Christian heritage as a moral principle. But

I'm

> not that sure about this anymore.

> >

> > Well, but it's more.

> >

> > The Germans was the first to discover the power of moving

pictures

> as a tool for propaganda, and during war time the Germans was

> presented to " Wochen Revyen " in the bios.

> >

> > I've seen one of them which I think is quite famous. It was

about

> the similarity between rats and Jews. First we saw some Jewish

faces,

> and slowly they changed into rats that were spreading diseases

and

> that should be extinguished to secure the Aryan nation from

threats.

> Similar to the spreading of the plague, the Black Death.

> >

> > After the war, there seemed to be an agreement not to bother

the

> Germans with the past, and they were not at all willing to talk

about

> it themselves.

> >

> > I once saw a Danish documentary where journalists was asking a

> neighbor to a Jew if she knew anything about what happened. At

first

> she said that she knew nothing, but pressured she went mad and

accused

> the journalists of accusing her for something she didn't know

anything

> about.

> > Later she cried and admitted that she knew, but that she was

> helpless. The denial defense was obvious. I'm convinced about

this

> being a common defense against shame for not doing the right

thing.

> >

> > This thread has convinced me that the Germans knew a lot more

than

> they have admitted. How many who was accurately informed on

specific

> atrocities is not important, the main conclusion is that they

knew,

> and did next to nothing to stop it.

> >

> > As far as I'm concerned I believe the only decent thing to do

is to

> stop finding excuses.

> >

> > Bjørn

> >

> > P.S.

> >

> > My father's one year younger brother was sentenced to a German

> concentration camp but survived.

> > After the war he continued his work in the Norwegian military,

> married and had two daughters.

> >

> > He is one of the softest and gentle persons I know, and I never

> heard him complain about anything.

> >

> > I've only heard this.Once, when he was in his sixties he could

not

> go around the Christmas tree and sing the usual hymns. Instead he

sat

> down and tears were rolling down his cheeks.

> >

> > They asked him what was wrong, and he said that when he was in

this

> German camp the Germans hung some of his friends in a kind of

tree and

> forced the others to go around it and sing Christmas songs.

> >

> > He just couldn't take the memories, otherwise I would have

known

> nothing.

> >

> > So really I don't care about what you're saying on the subject.

As

> far as I'm concerned - they knew.

>

June 3, 2001

> No, I think you have misunderstood. When the German Jews were

first

> ordered to wear Stars of , there was no knowledge that this

> entailed the draconian measures that followed -- that they could

not

> work, could not attend school, would be deported to labor camps,

etc.

>

-------------------

No way, Kayleigh. They may not have foreseen the minute

details, but you surely don't think they anticipated being treated as

full and equal and respected citizens if they were required to be

MARKED?? It's rather like the old practice of making a child wear a

dunce cap -- does the child think it's merely a nice new hat??

BTW, it's happening again right now in Afghanistan -- the

Taliban wants Hindus to have marks on their clothing at all times --

trust me, the Hindus KNOW they are despised and that the Taliban

wishes to expel and/or exterminate them.

~Rita

June 4, 2001

That is a good point. I will have to think about it. The outcries I

have seen about the Afghanistani situation are usually along the lines

of " Look what happened in Germany, and now it's happening in

Afghanistan. " I don't know whether that signals that the rest of the

world wore blinkers in the thirties or whether they regarded the

requirement as not very dangerous, in and of itself.

>

> > No, I think you have misunderstood. When the German Jews were

> first

> > ordered to wear Stars of , there was no knowledge that this

> > entailed the draconian measures that followed -- that they could

> not

> > work, could not attend school, would be deported to labor camps,

> etc.

> >

> -------------------

>

> No way, Kayleigh. They may not have foreseen the minute

> details, but you surely don't think they anticipated being treated

as

> full and equal and respected citizens if they were required to be

> MARKED?? It's rather like the old practice of making a child wear a

> dunce cap -- does the child think it's merely a nice new hat??

>

> BTW, it's happening again right now in Afghanistan -- the

> Taliban wants Hindus to have marks on their clothing at all times --

> trust me, the Hindus KNOW they are despised and that the Taliban

> wishes to expel and/or exterminate them.

>

> ~Rita

June 4, 2001

> Once in an AA

> meeting the topic was proposed, " Would you drink if someone were

> holding a gun to your head? " (Inane question.) As we went around

the

> room, everyone, to a man (and they were mostly men) said " No. " When

> it was my turn, I said, " Hell, yes! " And I firmly believe for that

> every one of those men would have taken a drink if death were the

> alternative.

Actually I think you may be mistaken. The Non-drinking of alcohol has

become a sacred edict in AA, akin to the sacrament of drinking it in

other religions. Often ppl die rather than break sacred commands. For

example, I heard of a Jewish man who as a prisoner almost died of

thirst because he used the small amount of drinking water he was given

to perform ritual washing of his hands. When an AA friend of mine

spoke of being suicidal becuase he had been dumped, I suggested he get

drunk instead: he considered that that would be a fate worse than

death.

> People are not good judges of what they would do in situations they

> haven't lived through. All of us assume that we would not have

> shocked Milgram's subjects because we know we're the " good guys. "

On the contrary. I am now aware that I very likely would have gone on

to give the maximum shock. I hope that *now* I wouldnt, but in

situation sufficiently dissimilar that I didnt notice what was going

on, who knows?

>But

> very few of us have lived through situations that have truly tested

> our principles to that degree, and remember, no matter what else

> Milgram's subjects may have believed, they knew it was " only an

> experiment. " Obviously this had an effect on their behavior as

>well.

But a potentially lethal one. Orne's suggestion that subjects knew it

was a fake seems complete drivel to me. These ppl believed they might

be giving lethal shocks to a man screaming in pain and with a bad

heart.

> Now suppose you are in a real-life situation where you know without

>a doubt that unless you do what a martial authority demands, not only

> you, but also your family, would lose their lives. It's easy to be

>a Monday morning quarterback. But I suggest that no one on this

>list, without exception, knows what they would really do, because

>they have never been in such a situation, and hence has not a foot to

>stand on when criticizing the Germans' lack of resistance.

And even more so, if non Jews knew what was happening, the Jews must

have done too - in which case they allowed themselves to be loaded

onto furniture vans and cattle drugs with minimal resistance. Better

to have been shot running away than that - what would one have to

lose? It is this fact, coupoed with many others that I have alluded

to more than once, that convinces me that in general ppl did not know.

I remember a documenttary which included an interview with a Jewish

man who survived. He said a friend in the army gave him a revolver and

said: " What ever you do, dont allow yourself to be transported. Kill

if you have to, but dont allow yourself to be transported. " This

suggests there was knowledge that something terrible was at the end of

the line, but what exactly was not generally known. I also remember

one man who was transported yet survived recalling another man

thinking that he would survive because he was fit and could work (he

didnt). In other words, there was some belief that survival was

possible.

It also must be remembered that there was no way to tell rumor from

fact. The example of the myth about lampshades and soap made from

humans is one that survives to this day; some holocaust survivors

believe it to be true. There is a great irony here: much of the hate

propoganda against Jews in central Europe involved alleged atrocities,

including dipping their matzos in the blood of murdered Xtian

children. Presumably the discerning German would be expected to

dismiss *that* atrocity as myth - isnt the suggestion that a ppl of

millions could be systematically exterminated by gassing equally

incredible (with or without being made into soap or lampshades)?

During WWI, the allies propogated all kind of myths about supposed

atrocities by the Germans, which meant news about the death camps was

often disbelieved outside Germany. Realistically, I dont think

Germans are the only ppl who are going to be less likely to believe

sotries about their *own* atrocities than ones about those they are

told to believe are their enemies.

P.

June 4, 2001

I thought the USA had a few camps for what they class as " illegal

immigrants " . If a person cannot prove where they originated from they are

locked up until they can. Some of the the Indigenous Peoples still live on

reservations too. In Canada not so long ago their children were forced to

attend boarding schools and punished for talking their own language and

following their own customs. Is this so very different from the Afghanistan

situation?

>From: kayleighs@...

>Reply-To: 12-step-free

>To: 12-step-free

>Subject: Re: Holocaust knowledge - again.

>Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 18:18:59 -0000

>

>That is a good point. I will have to think about it. The outcries I

>have seen about the Afghanistani situation are usually along the lines

>of " Look what happened in Germany, and now it's happening in

>Afghanistan. " I don't know whether that signals that the rest of the

>world wore blinkers in the thirties or whether they regarded the

>requirement as not very dangerous, in and of itself.

>

> >

> > > No, I think you have misunderstood. When the German Jews were

> > first

> > > ordered to wear Stars of , there was no knowledge that this

> > > entailed the draconian measures that followed -- that they could

> > not

> > > work, could not attend school, would be deported to labor camps,

> > etc.

> > >

> > -------------------

> >

> > No way, Kayleigh. They may not have foreseen the minute

> > details, but you surely don't think they anticipated being treated

>as

> > full and equal and respected citizens if they were required to be

> > MARKED?? It's rather like the old practice of making a child wear a

> > dunce cap -- does the child think it's merely a nice new hat??

> >

> > BTW, it's happening again right now in Afghanistan -- the

> > Taliban wants Hindus to have marks on their clothing at all times --

> > trust me, the Hindus KNOW they are despised and that the Taliban

> > wishes to expel and/or exterminate them.

> >

> > ~Rita

>

_________________________________________________________________________

Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

June 4, 2001

At 10:37 PM 6/4/01 +0100, you wrote:

>Some of the the Indigenous Peoples still live on

>reservations too.

This is by choice, though. It's not as if they aren't allowed to leave.

People move off of reservations all the time.

June 4, 2001

What Nazi-apologizers like you do is dismiss the significant degree of

opposition the Nazi's DID receive. There are many sources here, but the

best one I know is Encyclopedia of German Resistance to the Nazi Movement,

ed by W. Benz and W. Pehle.

Resistance took a lot of different shapes, from work slowdowns, to

hiding/helping Jews and other " targeted " people, to a acts of sabotage and

military resistance, including a number of attempts on Hitler's life.

Your type of people, however, did what you now advocate and tell us YOU

will do, when a similar situation reoccurs: they learned to salute in the

Roman style.