Guest guest Posted February 25, 1999 Report Share Posted February 25, 1999 Hi Mark, I guess the thing to bear in mind is that the backbone of this therapy is antibiotics - minocycline, doxycycline, erythromycin, clindamycin, lincocin, Zithromax etc. Anything else people find helpful are additions, NOT replacements for the antibiotic. Certainly gut problems and any other infections need to be addressed in order for the antibiotic to do its job and that is where many of these herbal supplements can help. Chris. You know I'm beginning to wonder just a tad what happened to good ol' minocyline? I know I've been guilty of wondering off down the path of chasing every latest fad (most to no avail), but as we continue to explore all these alternatives, it makes me think that minocycline isn't very effective or why would we be trying everything else under the sun? I know, we're just trying all this other stuff so that it will give the minocycline a better chance to work and be effective. Still, I don't really recall Dr. Brown indicating that we had to do all this. Seems like he had success without it. Seems like if we go tell our docs that we are on minocycline, but are also taking Ra-Spes, olive leaf, a thousand different herbs, MSM, CMO, DMSO, Upper Klamath Lake Blue Green Algae, etc, etc., that it might be logical for the physician to ask why we are taking all this other stuff if we think minocycline is the greatest thing to come down the road? Just a thought - wondering if we are all straying a bit far afield and in the process wasting a lot of money and confusing ourselves to no end. How are we ever going to determine what is effective? I wonder if our group should rename itself " The Latest Fad Group " (perhaps I could share leadership duties with someone? )) I am open to correction on this - perhaps a survey - listing other things we take and who takes them - would give us a grasp on our membership and what everyone is doing? Ethel - are we straying too far afield here? Mark http://members.tripod.com/~Mark_Holmes RA 4/98 AP 7/98 Minocycline (Lederle generic) 100mg 2x/day; Lodine 400mg 3x/day;olive leaf;Zone Diet;bromalain, maybe MSM today? RA Chat - http://members.tripod.com/~Mark_Holmes/RA/ra.html --------------------------- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 25, 1999 Report Share Posted February 25, 1999 Dr. Brown used tetracycline, minocycline and doxycycline. The last two didn't exist when he started his practice. Chris. " Liz G. " <pioneer@...> on 30/06/99 10:14:13 Please respond to " Liz G. " <pioneer@...> rheumaticonelist cc: (bcc: Adlard/AUST/CSC) Subject: Re: rheumatic Are we wandering ? From: " Liz G. " <pioneer@...> >I think he would have continued refining, and experimenting (as he did >BOTH). He may even have come up with an out and out cure and something >tells me it would not be minocycline. It just so happens that mino was >the best science available to him within his limited knowledge at that >particular time and place. Did Dr. Brown use minocycline? I can find no reference to it in The Road Back. When was it first used in this therapy and by whom, if anyone knows? Liz G --------------------------- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 29, 1999 Report Share Posted June 29, 1999 Hi Mark: Well stated. I would only add that I agree. Harry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 29, 1999 Report Share Posted June 29, 1999 Group, I thought the supplements and herbs, etc. were to help us get our immune systems up and running again so that we could start fighting the bugs normally. Carol/Piney/Canada At 11:57 AM 99/6/29 -0400, you wrote: >From: MHOLMES@... (HOLMES, MARK T.) > >You know I'm beginning to wonder just a tad what happened to good ol' >minocyline? I know I've been guilty of wondering off down the path of >chasing every latest fad (most to no avail), but as we continue to explore >all these alternatives, it makes me think that minocycline isn't very >effective or why would we be trying everything else under the sun? I know, >we're just trying all this other stuff so that it will give the minocycline >a better chance to work and be effective. Still, I don't really recall Dr. >Brown indicating that we had to do all this. Seems like he had success >without it. Seems like if we go tell our docs that we are on minocycline, >but are also taking Ra-Spes, olive leaf, a thousand different herbs, MSM, >CMO, DMSO, Upper Klamath Lake Blue Green Algae, etc, etc., that it might be >logical for the physician to ask why we are taking all this other stuff if >we think minocycline is the greatest thing to come down the road? > >Just a thought - wondering if we are all straying a bit far afield and in >the process wasting a lot of money and confusing ourselves to no end. How >are we ever going to determine what is effective? I wonder if our group >should rename itself " The Latest Fad Group " (perhaps I could share >leadership duties with someone? )) > >I am open to correction on this - perhaps a survey - listing other things we >take and who takes them - would give us a grasp on our membership and what >everyone is doing? Ethel - are we straying too far afield here? > >Mark >http://members.tripod.com/~Mark_Holmes >RA 4/98 AP 7/98 >Minocycline (Lederle generic) 100mg 2x/day; Lodine 400mg 3x/day;olive >leaf;Zone Diet;bromalain, maybe MSM today? >RA Chat - http://members.tripod.com/~Mark_Holmes/RA/ra.html > > > >--------------------------- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 29, 1999 Report Share Posted June 29, 1999 Re: rheumatic Are we wandering ? >From: Bob Zarn <bzarn@...> > >Group, I thought the supplements and herbs, etc. were to help us get our >immune systems up and running again so that we could start fighting the bugs >normally. Carol/Piney/Canada >At 11:57 AM 99/6/29 -0400, you wrote: >>From: MHOLMES@... (HOLMES, MARK T.) >> >>You know I'm beginning to wonder just a tad what happened to good ol' >>minocyline? I know I've been guilty of wondering off down the path of >>chasing every latest fad (most to no avail), but as we continue to explore >>all these alternatives, it makes me think that minocycline isn't very >>effective or why would we be trying everything else under the sun? I know, >>we're just trying all this other stuff so that it will give the minocycline >>a better chance to work and be effective. Still, I don't really recall Dr. >>Brown indicating that we had to do all this. Seems like he had success >>without it. Seems like if we go tell our docs that we are on minocycline, >>but are also taking Ra-Spes, olive leaf, a thousand different herbs, MSM, >>CMO, DMSO, Upper Klamath Lake Blue Green Algae, etc, etc., that it might be >>logical for the physician to ask why we are taking all this other stuff if >>we think minocycline is the greatest thing to come down the road? >> >>Just a thought - wondering if we are all straying a bit far afield and in >>the process wasting a lot of money and confusing ourselves to no end. How >>are we ever going to determine what is effective? I wonder if our group >>should rename itself " The Latest Fad Group " (perhaps I could share >>leadership duties with someone? )) >> >>I am open to correction on this - perhaps a survey - listing other things we >>take and who takes them - would give us a grasp on our membership and what >>everyone is doing? Ethel - are we straying too far afield here? >> >>Mark >>http://members.tripod.com/~Mark_Holmes >>RA 4/98 AP 7/98 >>Minocycline (Lederle generic) 100mg 2x/day; Lodine 400mg 3x/day;olive >>leaf;Zone Diet;bromalain, maybe MSM today? >>RA Chat - http://members.tripod.com/~Mark_Holmes/RA/ra.html >> >> >> >>--------------------------- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 29, 1999 Report Share Posted June 29, 1999 MArk, Good point. I have stayed with the Minocin and Zithromax and the supplements that were recommended by Dr. Franco and have done fabulously in terms of my arthritis. I do feel a need to look at the yeast in my system. I have been really bad on the food side and feel a need to clean that up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 29, 1999 Report Share Posted June 29, 1999 From: MHOLMES@... (HOLMES, MARK T.) <<You know I'm beginning to wonder just a tad what happened to good ol' minocyline? I know I've been guilty of wondering off down the path of chasing every latest fad (most to no avail), but as we continue to explore all these alternatives, it makes me think that minocycline isn't very effective or why would we be trying everything else under the sun? >> Interesting point, Mark. Here's what's going on with me. I was taking supplements by the handful. Now I'm taking minocycline and some other medications for depression and high blood pressure. I eat a reasonable diet and take the minocycline (100) every other day. I'm not such a fanatic about the supplements now. I think they helped build me up and now I'm feeling pretty good without them. I am completely off the NSAIDS and have a little finger stiffness. I think I'm pretty close to well or whatever. I'm enjoying it. I have to get a knee replacement sometime pretty close in the future but that's not due to arthritis. Life feels good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 29, 1999 Report Share Posted June 29, 1999 Group, My point exactly. some of us need to boost our immune systems with supplements, etc. until our immune system can do the job on its own. This group has helped in finding the brands,etc that work etc. Carol/Piney At 01:56 PM 99/6/29 -0700, you wrote: >From: " J " <denisej@...> > >From: MHOLMES@... (HOLMES, MARK T.) > ><<You know I'm beginning to wonder just a tad what happened to good ol' >minocyline? I know I've been guilty of wondering off down the path of >chasing every latest fad (most to no avail), but as we continue to explore >all these alternatives, it makes me think that minocycline isn't very >effective or why would we be trying everything else under the sun? >> > >Interesting point, Mark. Here's what's going on with me. I was taking >supplements by the handful. Now I'm taking minocycline and some other >medications for depression and high blood pressure. > >I eat a reasonable diet and take the minocycline (100) every other day. I'm >not such a fanatic about the supplements now. I think they helped build me >up and now I'm feeling pretty good without them. > >I am completely off the NSAIDS and have a little finger stiffness. I think >I'm pretty close to well or whatever. I'm enjoying it. I have to get a >knee replacement sometime pretty close in the future but that's not due to >arthritis. > >Life feels good. > > > > >--------------------------- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 29, 1999 Report Share Posted June 29, 1999 Hi Mark: I think you are right on the mark (sorry for the pun) but I was at my doctor today and I asked him about Refalen and he said, " I thought you really wanted to give the minocycline a real good try? If I give you Refalen how will you know what is really helping you and beside too much NSAIDS, supplements, minerals, etc can and offend confuse the metabolism " . So I will do without the Refalen and take my Tylenol when necessary and give the old mino a fair trial. Mado rheumatic Are we wandering ? >From: MHOLMES@... (HOLMES, MARK T.) > >You know I'm beginning to wonder just a tad what happened to good ol' >minocyline? I know I've been guilty of wondering off down the path of >chasing every latest fad (most to no avail), but as we continue to explore >all these alternatives, it makes me think that minocycline isn't very >effective or why would we be trying everything else under the sun? I know, >we're just trying all this other stuff so that it will give the minocycline >a better chance to work and be effective. Still, I don't really recall Dr. >Brown indicating that we had to do all this. Seems like he had success >without it. Seems like if we go tell our docs that we are on minocycline, >but are also taking Ra-Spes, olive leaf, a thousand different herbs, MSM, >CMO, DMSO, Upper Klamath Lake Blue Green Algae, etc, etc., that it might be >logical for the physician to ask why we are taking all this other stuff if >we think minocycline is the greatest thing to come down the road? > >Just a thought - wondering if we are all straying a bit far afield and in >the process wasting a lot of money and confusing ourselves to no end. How >are we ever going to determine what is effective? I wonder if our group >should rename itself " The Latest Fad Group " (perhaps I could share >leadership duties with someone? )) > >I am open to correction on this - perhaps a survey - listing other things we >take and who takes them - would give us a grasp on our membership and what >everyone is doing? Ethel - are we straying too far afield here? > >Mark >http://members.tripod.com/~Mark_Holmes >RA 4/98 AP 7/98 >Minocycline (Lederle generic) 100mg 2x/day; Lodine 400mg 3x/day;olive >leaf;Zone Diet;bromalain, maybe MSM today? >RA Chat - http://members.tripod.com/~Mark_Holmes/RA/ra.html > > > >--------------------------- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 30, 1999 Report Share Posted June 30, 1999 Hi Mark! Geoff Crenshaw here. I rise to the podium opposite your comments upon this issue (straightening my virtual cyber tie). " HOLMES, MARK T. " wrote: > > You know I'm beginning to wonder just a tad what happened to good ol' > minocyline? I do not understand the basis of the question. The tetracyclines are very much in evidence throughout the great majority of posts, whatever their flavor du jour (mino, doxy, et al), including not only their efficacy but also their complications, side effects and adverse reactions. > I know I've been guilty of wondering off down the path of > chasing every latest fad (most to no avail), but as we continue to explore Now, now - be nice to yourself. You wouldn't try it if it didn't offer hope for an existing and very real problem not " yet " cured -- but that's your point, yes? Personally, I've been very lucky. This list has kept me free from the " fads " , blessed by others more willing or better able to experiment at the time. But I've had my share too. > all these alternatives, it makes me think that minocycline isn't very > effective or why would we be trying everything else under the sun? I know, It just isn't " instant " is it? We're all individuals, and as such immensely complex. We don't act, nor react, like pure chemicals in test tubes - or even lab rats. And we all realize that these treatments, " generally " safe though they may be, also carry negative implications - some very severe indeed. I wouldn't go so far as to say, mino isn't " very " effective, or even " effective " . Rather I would say it is not " THE " answer but " AN " answer; One that can and is aided and assisted by a variety of supplements, herbs, and lifestyle modifications including diet, environmental, etc. For instance, I found that I cannot take Mino - it gives me horrible edema. But Doxy is my friend, and RA Spes saved my life. > we're just trying all this other stuff so that it will give the minocycline > a better chance to work and be effective. Still, I don't really recall Dr. Not necessarily. Sometimes we are making use of the infectious disease theory that Dr. Brown worked from but using those instead. Same idea, just different chemistry. Take the example of Olive Leaf that one of the ladies mentioned awhile back - same idea, different chemistry. (Yoly - was that you?) > Brown indicating that we had to do all this. Seems like he had success > without it. Conventional therapy claims " success " with Methotrexate. The analogy is interesting, but to use an alternative metaphor, because Henry Ford built cars of tin with no safety provisions whatsoever, does that mean the use of air bags, anti-lock brakes and seat belts is a fad? I don't think so. I believe it is more of a learning process. Dr. Brown is credited with " starting " the therapy, or perhaps popularizing (others might assert vilifying) it... but who's work did " he " build upon? Were his alterations and trials in building useless? What if he'd had another 50, 100, 200 years? Do you think he would have been " married " to minocycline? I don't. I think he would have continued refining, and experimenting (as he did BOTH). He may even have come up with an out and out cure and something tells me it would not be minocycline. It just so happens that mino was the best science available to him within his limited knowledge at that particular time and place. It may still be today... or it may not. Obviously there is much room for argument. It would indeed be interesting if RR Rife were here, or the Doc in Idaho using Bicom. Plaster casts worked, but technology has provided many, often better, alternatives. I believe what we're seeing within this group is the result of high speed open communication on a global basis increasing exponentially the active knowledge base for dealing with these symptoms. We are building-in our own additional 50, 100, 200 years through the use of communication. BTW, I use the word 'symptoms' intentionally. Because as of now, we still do not know the 'cause' of these symptoms. We have catalogued the symptoms, from Anklyosing Spondylitis to Scleroderma - but not the causative factors. In fact, there is every reason to believe the same bacteria which produces the symptoms called common pneumonia, may present as RA under different circumstances, but then others can too. And so we build one upon another. I learned from this group to use some things. I also learned to avoid others. I like to hope that I have shared a few things that others have found useful as well. My joints are damaged - there is no debate on that. But while one Doctor says, se la vie, another says take GS. And here, of all places, I learn that all GS is not the same; Some cause problems while others do not. And so I may have a chance to repair that which one physician's training, education and experience - limited though they are - had led him to conclude were irreparable. Years ago my naiveté gave way to knowledge as I discovered that seldom are these symptoms fully addressed with one thing, like Minocycline, because seldom are we as human beings treated as a whole. Instead our symptoms are segregated, catalogued, cubbyholed and " treated " and we are turned into bar glasses full of chemical cocktails - this for that and that for this. > Seems like if we go tell our docs that we are on minocycline, > but are also taking Ra-Spes, olive leaf, a thousand different herbs, MSM, > CMO, DMSO, Upper Klamath Lake Blue Green Algae, etc, etc., that it might be > logical for the physician to ask why we are taking all this other stuff if > we think minocycline is the greatest thing to come down the road? Because I've been educated to a point of understanding the underlying chemistry of the drug. Because I have learned that it is " more " effective if it has access to joints, and if I can tolerate it, and if I maintain good overall health ,and if my digestion works properly, and yada, yada, yada. Medical treatment is not (or should not be) a belief system. It is a laboratory art. The question from the medicos is often one of " belief " : Don't you " believe " these leeches will help you? Don't you " believe " Thalidomide is safe? Don't you " believe " I can make you well? Followed by: Oops - NEW studies show, blah, blah, blah. I " believe " in God, in the resurrection, in salvation through Christ, and eternal life. I do not " believe " in medicine. Medicine is an art practiced and produced by skilled practitioners. If a physician were to ask me: Why are you taking all this stuff if you think mino is the best thing to come down the pike? My answer would be simple: I want to get well. I have observed that each of these items has a beneficial effect upon me, some gross, some minor, some incremental, or I would not be taking them. This brings up another question doesn't it. Do you take things that, as far as you can tell, have no beneficial effect? An affirmative answer to that is pregnant indeed. And of more importance I think. It is easy to say, I take this or that because it helps me in this specific way. But what about things like vitamins and probiotics? Those are much, much harder to qualify. Do we trust the experience & opinions of someone like Dr. Franco or Dr. Chiu? If their experience, training and education lead them to conclude these vitamins, herbs, etc., are worthwhile, then what? > Just a thought - wondering if we are all straying a bit far afield and in > the process wasting a lot of money and confusing ourselves to no end. How > are we ever going to determine what is effective? I wonder if our group > should rename itself " The Latest Fad Group " (perhaps I could share > leadership duties with someone? )) I don't believe we are wandering far afield nor chasing fads. I believe we are learning and sharing, and being saved from chasing fads. For example, my RA reared its obviously ugly head after a terrible intestinal trial. No doctor ever mentioned the 'leaky gut theory' to me. And once I'd heard of it, no one had a clue how to establish if it indeed was a probability or what to do about it. No one mentioned yeast overgrowth, etc. No one outside this group, that is. Doctors, like us, are prisoners of their own knowledge. What we are doing is not wandering; We are sharing knowledge that allows us to stay focused and continue along our pathway of healing. That is, unless one feels this path, this group, is not for healing, but promoting tetracycline derivatives. I don't believe that's the case and I certainly don't think you do either, but the point is worth addressing. Obviously if that were the case, that sort of promotion would be better left to the likes of Lederle and Pfizer. Indeed, I think what we have here are people in general who want to get well and have taken the first and continuing steps along that very arduous road. People who in many instances are here due to the activities of health care givers who rather than helping their patients, harmed them. People who are willing, even motivated, to avoid further harm and thus inquire and look into alternative items. For instance, Betty's Dr. gives her DSMO because he has concluded it may benefit her. She tells us about it, we ask, some use, some are helped - some are not. Should the DMSO not have been on here? Does that make it the latest and greatest fad? Others find mercury has leached into their bodies, the probable source - amalgam fillings. So they have them removed. Is that a fad? Should we avoid it because some cannot afford it? Are those who can afford to have them removed to be denied that knowledge because others cannot? That argument raises itself in this forum too. But really, should knowledge be denied because one can afford what another cannot? > I am open to correction on this - perhaps a survey - listing other things we > take and who takes them - would give us a grasp on our membership and what > everyone is doing? The survey is an interesting concept. Surveys are very popular. I think you'll find the majority very " mainstream " . Probably on the order of a cocktail - a variety of Rx meds: Tet's and anti-inflamms and supp's. All doctors know antibiotics kill gut flora - they just don't agree on the necessity of replacing it, many saying that you get enough in your regular diet. And therein lies the crux of the matter - debate. Debate amongst medico's, debate amongst the sick and injured, fueled by things that work for some but not for others. > Ethel - are we straying too far afield here? Obviously none of us can speak for or Ethel, but from what I've been told about Dr. Brown, if there were a non-chemical way of curing these diseases and he found out about it, he would probably have been a very large promoter of it. I just don't agree with you on this issue, Mark. I don't think we're wandering about at all. In fact, I think we are exactly on course. In my mind, if using the supplements, herbs and drugs that I learn about here allows me to be CURED of this disease then my conclusion will be supported absolutely. But then, my Rheumy offered me Mino (not via AP, but vis a vis the O'Dell / Kloppenburg study) on a daily basis, after having decried Dr. Brown to be a Quack, and told me I would be on it for the rest of my life. I do not intend to be so. Whether my intentions or his comments turn out to be the more accurate only time will tell. I think if the group lacked, or was restricted from, the ability to share knowledge about all facets of the items which help, hurt or enhance our attempts at wellness, save or waste our resources, then it would be very one-dimensional and would not " support " at all. If that were the case, a few simple static web pages would more than suffice and there would be no need for this list at all. BTW: I'm not familiar with " Upper Klamath Lake Blue Green Algae " - is it especially good? <VBG!> -- Regards, Geoff Crenshaw, ACC ---------------------- Managing Partner ** No Disclaimers ** Captain Cook's Cruise Center ---------------------- ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Over 3,000 daily cruise & tour specials > Top 5% of Web Sites http://www.800-800-cruise.com [specials] > Top 100 Travel Sites .. > Top Web Sites for Cruise tips New Zealanders http://www.800-800-cruise.com [tips] USA PH: 800-800-CRUIse PH: 559-636-8413 FAX: 559-734-1420 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- geoff@... " Behold now, Behemoth, which I made as well as you; He eats grass like an ox. Behold now, his strength in his loins, and his power in the muscles of his belly. He bends his tail like a cedar; The sinews of his thighs are knit together. His bones are tubes of bronze; His limbs are like bars of iron. He is the first of the ways of God. " God speaking to Job... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 30, 1999 Report Share Posted June 30, 1999 >I think he would have continued refining, and experimenting (as he did >BOTH). He may even have come up with an out and out cure and something >tells me it would not be minocycline. It just so happens that mino was >the best science available to him within his limited knowledge at that >particular time and place. Did Dr. Brown use minocycline? I can find no reference to it in The Road Back. When was it first used in this therapy and by whom, if anyone knows? Liz G Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 30, 1999 Report Share Posted June 30, 1999 Geoff and Mark, It is truly a joy to read your comments. The great thing is that you both humanize, we all humanize this process. We all feel differently on a given day and I think some of us are good communicators of these feelings. What we can offer to others is hope that maybe something we try might reduce the pain for someone else and ultimately lead to a better quality of life . If we limit conversation to just antibiotics, we will soon answer all the queries and have nothing more to say. I for one want to know about the whole picture. We each have the option of taking or leaving, but we will never be without the knowledge of the option. I want to take this time to thank you all for your thoughtful contributions and your committment to each of us collectively in our quest for health. ---------- > From: Geoff Crenshaw <geoff@...> > To: > Cc: rheumaticonelist > Subject: Re: rheumatic Are we wandering ? > Date: Tuesday, June 29, 1999 4:50 PM > > From: Geoff Crenshaw <geoff@...> > > Hi Mark! Geoff Crenshaw here. > > I rise to the podium opposite your comments upon this issue > (straightening my virtual cyber tie). > > " HOLMES, MARK T. " wrote: > > > > You know I'm beginning to wonder just a tad what happened to good ol' > > minocyline? > > I do not understand the basis of the question. The tetracyclines are > very much in evidence throughout the great majority of posts, whatever > their flavor du jour (mino, doxy, et al), including not only their > efficacy but also their complications, side effects and adverse > reactions. > > > I know I've been guilty of wondering off down the path of > > chasing every latest fad (most to no avail), but as we continue to explore > > Now, now - be nice to yourself. You wouldn't try it if it didn't > offer hope for an existing and very real problem not " yet " cured -- but > that's your point, yes? > > Personally, I've been very lucky. This list has kept me free from the > " fads " , blessed by others more willing or better able to experiment at > the time. But I've had my share too. > > > all these alternatives, it makes me think that minocycline isn't very > > effective or why would we be trying everything else under the sun? I know, > > It just isn't " instant " is it? > > We're all individuals, and as such immensely complex. We don't act, nor > react, like pure chemicals in test tubes - or even lab rats. And we all > realize that these treatments, " generally " safe though they may be, also > carry negative implications - some very severe indeed. > > I wouldn't go so far as to say, mino isn't " very " effective, or even > " effective " . Rather I would say it is not " THE " answer but " AN " answer; > One that can and is aided and assisted by a variety of supplements, > herbs, and lifestyle modifications including diet, environmental, etc. > > For instance, I found that I cannot take Mino - it gives me horrible > edema. But Doxy is my friend, and RA Spes saved my life. > > > we're just trying all this other stuff so that it will give the minocycline > > a better chance to work and be effective. Still, I don't really recall Dr. > > Not necessarily. Sometimes we are making use of the infectious disease > theory that Dr. Brown worked from but using those instead. Same idea, > just different chemistry. Take the example of Olive Leaf that one of the > ladies mentioned awhile back - same idea, different chemistry. (Yoly - > was that you?) > > > Brown indicating that we had to do all this. Seems like he had success > > without it. > > Conventional therapy claims " success " with Methotrexate. The analogy is > interesting, but to use an alternative metaphor, because Henry Ford > built cars of tin with no safety provisions whatsoever, does that mean > the use of air bags, anti-lock brakes and seat belts is a fad? I don't > think so. I believe it is more of a learning process. > > Dr. Brown is credited with " starting " the therapy, or perhaps > popularizing (others might assert vilifying) it... but who's work did > " he " build upon? Were his alterations and trials in building useless? > What if he'd had another 50, 100, 200 years? Do you think he would have > been " married " to minocycline? > > I don't. > > I think he would have continued refining, and experimenting (as he did > BOTH). He may even have come up with an out and out cure and something > tells me it would not be minocycline. It just so happens that mino was > the best science available to him within his limited knowledge at that > particular time and place. It may still be today... or it may not. > Obviously there is much room for argument. It would indeed be > interesting if RR Rife were here, or the Doc in Idaho using Bicom. > Plaster casts worked, but technology has provided many, often better, > alternatives. > > I believe what we're seeing within this group is the result of high > speed open communication on a global basis increasing exponentially the > active knowledge base for dealing with these symptoms. We are > building-in our own additional 50, 100, 200 years through the use of > communication. > > BTW, I use the word 'symptoms' intentionally. Because as of now, we > still do not know the 'cause' of these symptoms. We have catalogued the > symptoms, from Anklyosing Spondylitis to Scleroderma - but not the > causative factors. In fact, there is every reason to believe the same > bacteria which produces the symptoms called common pneumonia, may > present as RA under different circumstances, but then others can too. > > And so we build one upon another. > > I learned from this group to use some things. I also learned to avoid > others. I like to hope that I have shared a few things that others have > found useful as well. > > My joints are damaged - there is no debate on that. But while one Doctor > says, se la vie, another says take GS. And here, of all places, I learn > that all GS is not the same; Some cause problems while others do not. > And so I may have a chance to repair that which one physician's > training, education and experience - limited though they are - had led > him to conclude were irreparable. > > Years ago my naiveté gave way to knowledge as I discovered that seldom > are these symptoms fully addressed with one thing, like Minocycline, > because seldom are we as human beings treated as a whole. Instead our > symptoms are segregated, catalogued, cubbyholed and " treated " and we are > turned into bar glasses full of chemical cocktails - this for that and > that for this. > > > Seems like if we go tell our docs that we are on minocycline, > > but are also taking Ra-Spes, olive leaf, a thousand different herbs, MSM, > > CMO, DMSO, Upper Klamath Lake Blue Green Algae, etc, etc., that it might be > > logical for the physician to ask why we are taking all this other stuff if > > we think minocycline is the greatest thing to come down the road? > > Because I've been educated to a point of understanding the underlying > chemistry of the drug. Because I have learned that it is " more " > effective if it has access to joints, and if I can tolerate it, and if I > maintain good overall health ,and if my digestion works properly, and > yada, yada, yada. > > Medical treatment is not (or should not be) a belief system. It is a > laboratory art. The question from the medicos is often one of " belief " : > > Don't you " believe " these leeches will help you? > Don't you " believe " Thalidomide is safe? > Don't you " believe " I can make you well? > > Followed by: > > Oops - NEW studies show, blah, blah, blah. > > I " believe " in God, in the resurrection, in salvation through Christ, > and eternal life. I do not " believe " in medicine. Medicine is an art > practiced and produced by skilled practitioners. If a physician were to > ask me: > > Why are you taking all this stuff if you think mino > is the best thing to come down the pike? > > My answer would be simple: > > I want to get well. I have observed that each of these > items has a beneficial effect upon me, some gross, some > minor, some incremental, or I would not be taking them. > > This brings up another question doesn't it. Do you take things that, as > far as you can tell, have no beneficial effect? An affirmative answer to > that is pregnant indeed. And of more importance I think. It is easy to > say, I take this or that because it helps me in this specific way. But > what about things like vitamins and probiotics? Those are much, much > harder to qualify. > > Do we trust the experience & opinions of someone like Dr. Franco or Dr. > Chiu? If their experience, training and education lead them to conclude > these vitamins, herbs, etc., are worthwhile, then what? > > > Just a thought - wondering if we are all straying a bit far afield and in > > the process wasting a lot of money and confusing ourselves to no end. How > > are we ever going to determine what is effective? I wonder if our group > > should rename itself " The Latest Fad Group " (perhaps I could share > > leadership duties with someone? )) > > I don't believe we are wandering far afield nor chasing fads. I believe > we are learning and sharing, and being saved from chasing fads. For > example, my RA reared its obviously ugly head after a terrible > intestinal trial. No doctor ever mentioned the 'leaky gut theory' to me. > And once I'd heard of it, no one had a clue how to establish if it > indeed was a probability or what to do about it. No one mentioned yeast > overgrowth, etc. No one outside this group, that is. > > Doctors, like us, are prisoners of their own knowledge. What we are > doing is not wandering; We are sharing knowledge that allows us to stay > focused and continue along our pathway of healing. > > That is, unless one feels this path, this group, is not for healing, but > promoting tetracycline derivatives. I don't believe that's the case and > I certainly don't think you do either, but the point is worth > addressing. Obviously if that were the case, that sort of promotion > would be better left to the likes of Lederle and Pfizer. > > Indeed, I think what we have here are people in general who want to get > well and have taken the first and continuing steps along that very > arduous road. People who in many instances are here due to the > activities of health care givers who rather than helping their patients, > harmed them. People who are willing, even motivated, to avoid further > harm and thus inquire and look into alternative items. > > For instance, Betty's Dr. gives her DSMO because he has concluded it may > benefit her. She tells us about it, we ask, some use, some are helped - > some are not. Should the DMSO not have been on here? Does that make it > the latest and greatest fad? > > Others find mercury has leached into their bodies, the probable source - > amalgam fillings. So they have them removed. Is that a fad? Should we > avoid it because some cannot afford it? Are those who can afford to have > them removed to be denied that knowledge because others cannot? That > argument raises itself in this forum too. But really, should knowledge > be denied because one can afford what another cannot? > > > I am open to correction on this - perhaps a survey - listing other things we > > take and who takes them - would give us a grasp on our membership and what > > everyone is doing? > > The survey is an interesting concept. Surveys are very popular. I think > you'll find the majority very " mainstream " . Probably on the order of a > cocktail - a variety of Rx meds: Tet's and anti-inflamms and supp's. All > doctors know antibiotics kill gut flora - they just don't agree on the > necessity of replacing it, many saying that you get enough in your > regular diet. And therein lies the crux of the matter - debate. Debate > amongst medico's, debate amongst the sick and injured, fueled by things > that work for some but not for others. > > > Ethel - are we straying too far afield here? > > Obviously none of us can speak for or Ethel, but from what I've > been told about Dr. Brown, if there were a non-chemical way of curing > these diseases and he found out about it, he would probably have been a > very large promoter of it. > > I just don't agree with you on this issue, Mark. I don't think we're > wandering about at all. In fact, I think we are exactly on course. > > In my mind, if using the supplements, herbs and drugs that I learn about > here allows me to be CURED of this disease then my conclusion will be > supported absolutely. But then, my Rheumy offered me Mino (not via AP, > but vis a vis the O'Dell / Kloppenburg study) on a daily basis, after > having decried Dr. Brown to be a Quack, and told me I would be on it for > the rest of my life. I do not intend to be so. Whether my intentions or > his comments turn out to be the more accurate only time will tell. > > I think if the group lacked, or was restricted from, the ability to > share knowledge about all facets of the items which help, hurt or > enhance our attempts at wellness, save or waste our resources, then it > would be very one-dimensional and would not " support " at all. If that > were the case, a few simple static web pages would more than suffice and > there would be no need for this list at all. > > BTW: I'm not familiar with " Upper Klamath Lake Blue Green Algae " - is it > especially good? <VBG!> > -- > Regards, > > Geoff Crenshaw, ACC ---------------------- > Managing Partner ** No Disclaimers ** > Captain Cook's Cruise Center ---------------------- > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Over 3,000 daily cruise & tour specials > Top 5% of Web Sites > http://www.800-800-cruise.com [specials] > Top 100 Travel Sites > . > Top Web Sites for > Cruise tips New Zealanders > http://www.800-800-cruise.com [tips] > > USA PH: 800-800-CRUIse PH: 559-636-8413 FAX: 559-734-1420 > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > geoff@... > > " Behold now, Behemoth, which I made as well as you; He eats grass like > an ox. Behold now, his strength in his loins, and his power in the > muscles of his belly. He bends his tail like a cedar; The sinews of his > thighs are knit together. His bones are tubes of bronze; His limbs are > like bars of iron. He is the first of the ways of God. " > > God speaking to Job... > > --------------------------- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 30, 1999 Report Share Posted June 30, 1999 Perhaps the List should be renamed: " Whatever Works-formerly known as AP " . As a matter of fact while dining this evening I had an opportunity to observe my cat going thru his normal stretching maneuvers and while wishing I could be that flexible, it dawned on me that perhaps it has nothing to do with cat genetics, but rather in that little pouch of Whiskers that I have been opening for him. Hoping to replicate his elasticity and cure my RA, I have embarked on a Whiskers diet and will inform the group of my abilities to scale high walls, sleep upside down with legs and paws outstretched to impossible angles and arch my back to incredible degrees, all the while taking my minocycline. ah, in humor lies hope! Mark Re: rheumatic Are we wandering ? > From: Geoff Crenshaw <geoff@...> > > Hi Mark! Geoff Crenshaw here. > > I rise to the podium opposite your comments upon this issue > (straightening my virtual cyber tie). > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 30, 1999 Report Share Posted June 30, 1999 " Liz G. " wrote: > > Did Dr. Brown use minocycline? I can find no reference to it in The Road > Back. When was it first used in this therapy and by whom, if anyone knows? > Liz G Dr. Brown did indeed use Minocin. Check out the Antibiotic Therapy of Rheumatoid Arthritis: An Observational Cohort Study of 98 Patients on our web page. Ethel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 30, 1999 Report Share Posted June 30, 1999 -->been opening for him. Hoping to replicate his elasticity and cure my RA, I >have embarked on a Whiskers diet and will inform the group of my abilities >to scale high walls, sleep upside down with legs and paws outstretched to >impossible angles and arch my back to incredible degrees, all the while >taking my minocycline. LOL Mark, my doctor did tell me to take fish oil early on in my treatment and it did seem to help some, so maybe your new diet will work! Do keep us posted--Accck! Yes, humor does help to part the clouds a little when we are down! Should be a requisite part of the AP IMHO. Liz G Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 30, 1999 Report Share Posted June 30, 1999 Beware! Beware! Whiska's is after all you fish oil afficianados! :-D Time for the doggie crowd to chime in. Personally, I've been feeling a LOT like a bloody rabbit lately! -- Regards, Geoff Crenshaw, ACC ---------------------- Managing Partner ** No Disclaimers ** Captain Cook's Cruise Center ---------------------- ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Over 3,000 daily cruise & tour specials > Top 5% of Web Sites http://www.800-800-cruise.com [specials] > Top 100 Travel Sites .. > Top Web Sites for Cruise tips New Zealanders http://www.800-800-cruise.com [tips] USA PH: 800-800-CRUIse PH: 559-636-8413 FAX: 559-734-1420 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- geoff@... " Behold now, Behemoth, which I made as well as you; He eats grass like an ox. Behold now, his strength in his loins, and his power in the muscles of his belly. He bends his tail like a cedar; The sinews of his thighs are knit together. His bones are tubes of bronze; His limbs are like bars of iron. He is the first of the ways of God. " God speaking to Job... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 30, 1999 Report Share Posted June 30, 1999 Although a big part of me agrees...remember that minocycline is BACTERIOSTATIC; ie: it holds the mycoplasma in check while your immune system kills the bugs. Anything we can do to boost the immune system should help. And now to contradict myself...if our illnesses are " AUTOIMMUNE " , by strengthening our immune systems aren't we accelerating the damage to our joints? -Mike- P.S. as a support group, there is only so much discussion we can have about taking 200 mg minocin MWF. This other stuff keeps us in touch... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 30, 1999 Report Share Posted June 30, 1999 That is the whole point.....it isn't an autoimmune disease. The immune system is acting quite naturally by detecting the offending mycoplasmas and causing inflammation for it's attack. The problem occurs when science cannot detect the offending L-formed bacteria so the assumption is made that the immune system is misfiring. While all the time our immune systems are annoyed by the presence of the problem. Then we turn around and suppress the immune system with DMARDS giving the mycoplasma free access to multiply and attach to host cells in the rest of our bodies. Think about it. xoxo Donna >Although a big part of me agrees...remember that minocycline is >BACTERIOSTATIC; ie: it holds the mycoplasma in check while your immune >system kills the bugs. Anything we can do to boost the immune system should >help. > >And now to contradict myself...if our illnesses are " AUTOIMMUNE " , by >strengthening our immune systems aren't we accelerating the damage to our >joints? > >-Mike- > >P.S. as a support group, there is only so much discussion we can have about >taking 200 mg minocin MWF. This other stuff keeps us in touch... > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 30, 1999 Report Share Posted June 30, 1999 Donna, I agree with you wholeheartedly, and that has been my stance since the day I was diagnosed, and the same day finding " Arthritis Breakthrough. " However, as I've shared this week with the group, I have done exceptionally well -- gone are fatigue, fitful nights of trying to turn over in bed and sleep, inability to raise my left arm higher than my shoulder, etc., etc. But along with all this progress has loomed the continuous high sed rate (I feel positive this stems from original problem of infection in my head). Over the last 2-1/2 years on AP, I have rarely even taken ibuprofen. BUT, I ask myself, as long as my sed rate was that high, should I have been on at least a small amount of anti-inflammatory to allow the Minocin to reach its target in my head (which I've been told is a difficult area to treat anyway). I now find myself doing pretty terrific from the neck down, but OH what important functions are involved from the neck up. If only we had a crystal ball!!! Billie Re: rheumatic Are we wandering ? >From: " Donna and Ray " <mousepotatoes@...> > >That is the whole point.....it isn't an autoimmune disease. > >The immune system is acting quite naturally by detecting the offending >mycoplasmas and causing inflammation for it's attack. The problem occurs >when science cannot detect the offending L-formed bacteria so the assumption >is made that the immune system is misfiring. While all the time our immune >systems are annoyed by the presence of the problem. > >Then we turn around and suppress the immune system with DMARDS giving the >mycoplasma free access to multiply and attach to host cells in the rest of >our bodies. > >Think about it. > >xoxo >Donna > > > > >>Although a big part of me agrees...remember that minocycline is >>BACTERIOSTATIC; ie: it holds the mycoplasma in check while your immune >>system kills the bugs. Anything we can do to boost the immune system >should >>help. >> >>And now to contradict myself...if our illnesses are " AUTOIMMUNE " , by >>strengthening our immune systems aren't we accelerating the damage to our >>joints? >> >>-Mike- >> >>P.S. as a support group, there is only so much discussion we can have about >>taking 200 mg minocin MWF. This other stuff keeps us in touch... >> > > > >--------------------------- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 30, 1999 Report Share Posted June 30, 1999 Geoff, Very well said! BTW, yes Blue Green Algae from Kallamath Falls is supposed to be very superior. My father had great results with improved mental clarity on it. L In a message dated 99-06-29 19:52:58 EDT, you write: << Hi Mark! Geoff Crenshaw here. I rise to the podium opposite your comments upon this issue (straightening my virtual cyber tie). " HOLMES, MARK T. " wrote: >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 1, 1999 Report Share Posted July 1, 1999 Jnenorth@... wrote: > > BTW, yes Blue Green Algae from Kallamath Falls is supposed to be very > superior. My father had great results with improved mental clarity on it. I'm wiping the egg from my cyber tie! I thought Mark was joking. I'd never heard of this blue-green algae, LOL! -- Regards, Geoff Crenshaw, ACC ---------------------- Managing Partner ** No Disclaimers ** Captain Cook's Cruise Center ---------------------- ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Over 3,000 daily cruise & tour specials > Top 5% of Web Sites http://www.800-800-cruise.com [specials] > Top 100 Travel Sites .. > Top Web Sites for Cruise tips New Zealanders http://www.800-800-cruise.com [tips] USA PH: 800-800-CRUIse PH: 559-636-8413 FAX: 559-734-1420 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- geoff@... " Behold now, Behemoth, which I made as well as you; He eats grass like an ox. Behold now, his strength in his loins, and his power in the muscles of his belly. He bends his tail like a cedar; The sinews of his thighs are knit together. His bones are tubes of bronze; His limbs are like bars of iron. He is the first of the ways of God. " God speaking to Job... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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