Re: How far to push?? Please help!

[Guest guest]

Laurel--

As you know, our boys are pretty close in age, and I find I have the

same battles with Drew even now. So believe me...I feel your pain.

Sometimes we do have to push, because otherwise, these kids would

never make any progress. Even someone from the Child Study Team that

evaluated Drew told me that part of the reason that they were making

the recommendations they are was due to the fact that if Drew can do

something, he will. If he can't, he gives up and won't try unless you

really push him. When I thought about it, she was right about that,

and I've seen that to be true of myself, not only as a child, but

sometimes even as an adult.

Some of what's going on with Evan is terrible twos, as I've not only

seen it in Drew, but I've seen it in his peers and shared the woes

with fellow moms. But I know what you are saying, it's just so hard

after a point that you wonder how much is too much.

There are times that I know, as frustrating it is for all, that we

have to push and discipline for the less than savory behavior with

our kids. I'm learning this ALL THE TIME with Drew these days. My

little monkey has become our " cheeky monkey " now, due to him finally

using his new word, " NO " , all the time (most kids his age have

already gone through that stage-- he's just doing it NOW). But you

are right too, that sometimes you can get a lot more accomplished by

complying with what they want too.

I'm finding, through trial and error, right now is that you have to

find a compromise between both sets of wills sometimes. Evan has to

remember that you are the boss, not him. You are not disrespecting

him, but he has to understand that there are certain things that are

acceptable behavior and some things that aren't. You are the one to

help him learn that. There is also room, as I said, to compromise.

Maybe in giving him a choice that he can do one activity at the high

chair and another on the floor, but be consistent about it, he'll

cooperate more. Or ask him for choices-- it's either this, or this,

and there is no choice C that would possibly be Evan's choice. I've

been doing that a lot more with Drew, and slowly but surely he's

coming around, and we're making better progress as a result. You

might still get the tears and the fights at first, but eventually he

will get the idea and get with the program.

It's something I've heard ALL mothers-- those with " normal " kids as

well as those with kids who have issues--have said-- Pick your

battles. Some things are not worth fighting as much as others, and

you know what's more important to you. In my house, sometimes it's

an eating thing within reason. Drew can eat his breakfast cereal out

of the box (although I'd prefer it in a bowl), but as long as he sits

at the table and doesn't make too much of a mess, it's fine-- at

least he's eating something and something healthy (no super sugary

cereals around here, so he can pretty much have his choice, and that

makes him happy too). However, like I said, he can't sit and eat any

food in front of the TV on the floor. He has to sit at his little

play table in the TV room or at the dining room table, and he knows

that after many months of drilling. Any snacks-- he automatically

sits at his little table. I even give him the choice of where to sit-

- he usually chooses the little table, and that's fine. He feels he

has some control of the situation, when he really doesn't.

I think some compromise and choosing of your battles is what's needed

here...that's just my opinion. I'm still working through it myself,

as I mentioned, but I'm finding that while I have my good days and

bad days, there is still progress that's being made in a positive

way.

Hope this helps...

le (SAHM to Drew, 2.9 months, apraxia DSI hypotonia)

> Hi,

>

> I am having a problem with Evan. He is 27 mo, and, I believe,

having

> some " terrrible twos " issues (mostly about wanting his own way/not

> doing as I ask). He does have receptive language issues, but I

> usually can tell when he did not understand vs. chose not to

comply.

[Guest guest]

and never had to sit in a high chair for speech. They

started at 2. The speech therapist either had little kid table and

chairs, or the therapist and the girls would sit on the floor

together.

They would play games related to what they were working on.

If they were having a good day, the girls would see the therapist

alone.

If they were having a bad day, the therapist would see all of us

together. If they were having a really bad day, the girls would sit

in my lap.

The therapists were always very flexible. I had two going to

therapy, and they would work with whoever was more flexible and

having a better day. At 2 and 3, there was not much pressure. I

think the therapist modeled things a lot. She would try to get

to make animal sounds, blow bubbles, drink with a straw. She

would show sign language for things like " I want more " . She

would give her some candy and tell to say " I want more " . The

therapist would show how to say it with her hands. I can

remember the therapist working on the " who sound for a long time " .

They played with owls a lot at the time. When they were working

with the " ba " sound, they played with sheep.

Also, the therapist that the girls had the most fun with was the one

that the girls made the most progress with.

Starting at 4 and 5, the therapy got more structured. Now, at 7 the

therapy is very structured. They do a lot more reading and

repeating and looking at the mirror. sits in a chair the

whole time. Now, there is lots of repetition. They play games as a

reward, however the games are very speech and language intensive.

For example, they might play a matching game with pictures of

things. has to use the name of the item in a sentence. She

may have to say the item 3 or 4 times correctly before they go unto

the next thing. There is no way would have done that at 2 or

even 3. has always had a very long attention span, a lot

longer than most kids. Every therapist has said that about her.

[Guest guest]

Hi Laurel -

I had this longlong, involved, personal note and then my computer

decided to give me an error message and go directly to DOS - do not

pass go, collect $100 or anything. Sigh...

Since both my boys have the barfs and I'm typing on what is

apparently a sketchy computer, I'll be short (if I can).

I would separate the speech work from ALL kinds of punishment. The

very last thing you want to do is to push him into hating the work -

and equating it with punishment of any kind. If your son needs a

timeout because he's being overly willful, it should be in his bed or

in a corner or special chair with a favorite toy or activity. The

nature of the time-out is to calm down and remove the child from the

immediate environment so s/he can reflect and calm down. (ok,

sometimes it's so mommy doesn't lose it, too) Restraining a child in

a highchair isn't a timeout - it's different. We used to have to put

my son in his highchair because he would have tantrums and hit and

flail and I couldn't physically hold him because he weighed over 1/3

what I did. It was my only option. And when he stopped (and it was

awful), we'd have a calm talk and clear it up with lots of hugs and

love.

Go buy the book " Making the Terrible Twos Terrific " - it's got great

tips and also has some suggestions on how to PREVENT bad behaviour.

One of them is to let the child know ahead of time what is expected

of him/her. This is something that I didn't used to do - and I KNOW

it's because he didn't talk. I treated him as littler than he was

because he didn't respond. Though I talked to him all day long, it

was missing this step of age-appropriate conversation. When your son

refused to put his pants on or ask for help, had you explained to him

where you were going and why? I never used to do that until I

witnessed my bestfriend (at whose house my oldest just barfed)

explaining why they needed to leave a store immediately because Mommy

forgot an appointment. It hadn't occurred to me to speak to my kids

that way - MAN did it change things! Immense change - because much

of the confrontations you have with a 2 year old is him/her asserting

independence. If you GIVE them independence (within reason) they are

pleased.

Finally, you DO need to push your kids, but you need to be aware of

FOR WHAT REASON you are pushing. If you are wasting all your therapy

sessions because your child is refusing to cooperate, then you need

to do something. I wouldn't say punishment would be the first course

of attack - and I also would say that the first line of defense is a

good offense - the therapist might not be doing his/her job to engage

the child, either. There are basic things that need to be obeyed -

no running in the street, don't poke your brother with a stick, no

hitting, spitting, biting, kicking, and we only scream at the top of

our lungs if we're hurt or if we need the police. Those are the

basics - everything else is " make it up as we go " . When my youngest

(4.3 - speech delay - undiagnosed) has a fit, my husband tends to

just force the issue - put the pants on, pick him up, etc.. I always

remind him to ASK what's wrong - or in my son's case - say " What do

you want? " We generally get the answer and can rectify the

situation. I wouldn't EVER push the speech issue - there are easier,

more effective ways of " encouraging " (demanding) speech and

interaction. Before I'd go the punishing route - I'd try the

encouraging route - stickers for signing & talking, big hugs and

kisses for having a good speech session, etc..

I hope this helps and doesn't sound too judgemental. I wish someone

had explained these things to me when my son was 2 - while he was

pretty great for therapy, he was pretty rotten at home and we had

LOTS AND LOTS of problems - daily. I would have gleefully thrown

myself off a bridge if I could have. Step back and think about what

every interaction you have with your son teaches him - and go REALLY

basic because that's all they're able to do.

Good luck - and seriously - get the book. It's great!

Marina

> Hi,

>

> I am having a problem with Evan. He is 27 mo, and, I believe,

having

> some " terrrible twos " issues (mostly about wanting his own way/not

> doing as I ask). He does have receptive language issues, but I

> usually can tell when he did not understand vs. chose not to

comply.

> This morning (as with many mornings), he refused to comply with

> pulling down his pants to get undressed (he knows that

direction...he

> was just being stubborn). Since he *had* to get dressed due to my

6

> yo possibly having to be picked up from school (school nurse thinks

> he may be getting sick...had a slightly elevated temperature at

9:30

> am EST), I finally ended up taking his pants off for him, but

telling

> him that he would be in his high chair to do some speech work. He

> did cooperate mostly with getting his daytime clothes on, but

refused

> to pull his pants up. He had independently requested help (sign),

> and I would have happily helped him with the part that he really

> needed help with, but he was refusing to do the part that he

*could*

> do. So, downstairs to the high chair. He was fine just sitting

in

> it, but the minute I put any activity on his chair (a baby to

> practice his play skills/receptive language with), he started

> screaming and wouldn't stop. He then got put in time out, but

still

> wouldn't stop screaming, so he was put in his crib. He is calm

now,

> so I will get him in a minute.

>

> My instinct is to not put him in situations where I know that I

> tantrum will result (making him follow so many directions that kids

> without speech/language problems would probably not be required to

> follow; putting him in a high-chair and drilling him on his Baby

> Einstein cards or how to play pretend or identifying

> objects/pictures, etc). However, last time our SLP came, that is

> exactly what she did, and felt it would be the wrong move to let

him

> out of the chair (even though he was pointing " down " ).

>

> So, my question is, does he need to be pushed this much?? Is it

> going to motivate him to learn? Would it or would it not be better

> to do short play/receptive language lessons on the floor where he

> generally prefers to be? Is it wrong to try to avoid a tantrum?

>

> PLEASE HELP!

>

> Laurel, mom to Evan (27 mo, Pierre Robin Sequence, cleft palate

> repaired, 2nd set of tubes, nonverbal with 15-25 signs, suspected

> diagnoses of " Receptive-Expressive Language Disorder " and " Verbal

> Apraxia " )

[Guest guest]

Hi Laurel and all!

Sorry I have been out of the loop and others may have answered this -

but just had to jump in to answer this question because it hits

close to home due to my own son Tanner.

In the preschool disabled program through the town school prior to

us moving the teacher described Tanner as " manipulative " due to the

fact that he " wouldn't do things that he knew how to do "

One day she explained to me for example, all the children took their

shoes and socks off for OT. Tanner did not do this even though he

had the day prior. Certainly if he did it once he could do it

again -right? Not with apraxia as you know. Unfortunately the

teacher did not know this and she punished Tanner by letting him sit

on the floor " and cry. I told the aids in the room not to assist

him and after OT, while we all sat and ate a bagel together, he was

so stubborn he still just sat there and cried. When he realizes

others will not give in to him he will come around "

I was worried about damage to Tanner's self esteem in this class.

What did I do? I took Tanner to yet another neurologist at the

time, Dr. Trevor DeSouza (he at this point had already seen Dr.

Marilyn Agin who diagnosed the apraxia)

Dr. DeSouza was very upset with what happened to say the least -and

said that what was done was " highly inappropriate " and put this in

writing along with something like " a child with a motor planning

disorder can do an activity once, or say a word once, and not be

able to again on command. "

Our little guys who can't talk yet have much on their plates -and we

are the only heroes they have for now. We do need to learn how much

to push without breaking. And as I said to the OT in Tanner's old

preschool disabled class when she said " Oh please, if Tanner had

something wrong with him he would be so much worse " I said " Well I

myself am not a neurologist, but I believe what Dr. DeSouza is

trying to say is to give the child the benefit of the doubt before

you punish him for doing something that you assume he can do when

possibly he can't "

During this time, Tanner who had always loved his private speech

therapists had a melt down in not wanting to get out of the car to go

to speech therapy one day. Ortega CCC/SLP

http://www.cherab.org/information/speechlanguage/feeding.html came

out to the car and joked around with Tanner and tried to make him

feel better -but when he still didn't budge -she told me to just let

him go home and " don't push it " You don't want speech therapy to

ever be associated with any type of punishment in my opinion. That

was the only day that Tanner ever did that. He loves therapy still.

By the way -once switched to out of district placement and since

then onto public mainstream school classes in three schools now and

in first grade (still straight A!!) -Tanner has never been

described as manipulative by anyone else since. He wasn't then

either of course. Tanner was then and is now a " sweet kid " -ask

anyone.

Below is an article written for parents of " normal " children of your

child's age (who do not have speech or motor planning or any other

developmental delays) If your child has any amount of impairments

or delays -the following advice may be relevant in an older child as

well. They give some advice in the following -but I also wanted to

add a few more quick points that worked for us. (and our child

Tanner was diagnosed oral and verbal apraxic with sensory

integration dysfunction and hypotonia

http://www.cherab.org/information/familiesrelate/letter.html )

The best way to break a " stubborn streak " is to give your child

decisions. Instead of " put your pants on " ask " do you want to wear

your Scooby Doo pants or your favorite red ones today? " And then -I'd then

usually add quickly about something fun we were

planning on doing later that day even if we were " just " getting

ready for school or therapy at the time. I'd say all excited and bubbly

" Quick!

like a bunny Tanner! Today after school we are going to have a play

date with so we have to hurry! " (even though that wouldn't make sense to

an

adult -I found for some reason it works extremely well for a

preschool children probably since they don't have the concept of

time down yet!) Most times I would help Tanner even if I thought or

was really sure he 'could' do something. As everything -we all know

when to choose our battles -and since I wasn't quite 100% sure of

what he could do at all times -I did tend to give Tanner the benefit

of the doubt. I also found that by starting to help him and keeping

the attitude light and by positive reinforcement for when he jumped

in to do it himself.

I can assure you Tanner does everything 100% on his own today -and

is not spoiled due to all the benefits of the doubts and unchosen

battles we didn't fight back when he was still struggling and growing.

" How Behavior Changes in Toddlers

Ages 18 Months to 2.5 Years

Children are born and then they grow--and grow, and grow. Here's

what you can expect in your child's development as he enters the

toddler stage, age 18 months to 2.5 years.

Children at this age are becoming their own people, separate and

independent from their parents. They need to explore everything in

their environment, to help them learn about the people and places in

their life. At the same time, they are improving their walking,

running, and climbing skills and learning to talk.

There are many behaviors at this age that challenge parents. As a

toddler, it is likely that your child won't always hold your hand,

will refuse to come when called, and say " NO. " It is common for

toddlers to insist on having things a certain way, to have temper

tantrums, and refuse to share or take turns.

During this stage it is still important to childproof your child's

environment. It is also important to be patient with your child.

Don't try to make a child do something until he's ready to do it.

Children aren't always ready when their parents are ready. Skills

such as toilet training, eating with forks and spoons, and being

careful with the pages of a book come when the child is ready to

learn.

Don't expect a child of this age to do everything a parent asks.

Expecting a small child to be obedient will frustrate both parent

and child. It helps if you keep your sentences short and simple and

be very specific and direct. For example, rather than saying, " Clean

up this mess, " try saying " Let's pick up these toys and put them in

the toy chest "

Tantrums are common at this age; your best defense is to try to keep

them from happening. Avoid taking your child someplace when he is

hungry or tired, or will be tempted to demand things he sees. If

your child has a tantrum keep calm and ignore it as best as you can,

this decreases the chances of the behavior occurring again.

The best method of discipline for children of this age is

distraction. Because toddlers have a short attention span, most will

quickly do what you want after being distracted. For example, if a

child refuses to let you put on her coat when it's time to leave,

stop the effort and direct her attention to something out the

window. After that go back to the task of putting on the coat.

Chances are that the coat will slip right on. And remember to pick

your battles; some behavior should simply be ignored.

The toddler years can be trying years. But they are also wonderful

years, when your child is learning so much and growing in so many

ways. These tips will help you and your toddler enjoy this time of

life together. "

http://www.extension.umn.edu/info-u/families/BE620.html

=====