Re: Demons - was Breastfeeding Books Recommendations

[Guest guest]

I have nothing to justify the fact that I was unable to feed

> so I continue to beat myself up about it.

>

> Gosh this is longer than I expected, sorry.

>

> Cerys

Cerys,

You mustn't beat yourself up about it - you simply didn't get the help and

support you needed at the time.

I 'failed' at breastfeeding with my first daughter - like you I hadn't even

considered the possibility of problems, had just assumed I would b/feed and

that was that.

However I ended up giving up after one week - I remember feeling completely

overwhelmed by the seemingly insurmountable problems we had and was so

relieved to have given up. Three weeks later I was *gutted* I hadn't stuck

with it. The midwives I had were useless - I phoned La Leche League, and

spoke to woman who was no help at all, I simply didn't have the help I

needed.

When I got pregnant again, I read up on breastfeeding and learnt all I

could - and resolved that even if my nipples fell off I was damn well going

to feed this baby regardless!

I put off feeding him after he was born because I was so frightened of

failure but I did, and took it a day at a time and I went on to feed him for

10 months. I'm still feeding Verity now at 2 1/4.

I still am sad that I didn't have that relationship with Bethany, but I

don't beat myself up about it anymore. I did my best, but had no help, (it

was a comment from a midwife that ultimately made me give up) and no

support.

Hannah, 26

Mum to Bethany 6, Lawrence 4 1/2, Verity 2 and Baby No.4 due Feb 2001

[Guest guest]

Gosh, Cerys and Hannah - could be me talking there, feeling 'failure' with

first - and those feelings multiplied by the 'success' of the second.

I have been through it in my mind so many times and cannot see how it could

ever have been different first time round - for me. I was sooo exhausted at

the time. I have to remember that. We must all try to be kind to *ourselves*

in retrospect!

Barbara

[Guest guest]

Hannah Hamer wrote:-

>. I did my best, but had no help, (it was a comment from a midwife that

ultimately made me give up) >

Go on Hannah What was the comment from the mw?

It is surprising what big consequences little comments have especially when

the hormones are rushing around the body after having a baby.

the affected too

[Guest guest]

Barbara wrote>>>>We must all try to be kind to *ourselves*

in retrospect!<<<

It is so hard. I had a C/S with DS1 after cord prolapse, then got PND and

cleverly watched a panorama programme whilst i had it about PND mums causing

major problems for their sons in later life and felt i had failed him on all

accounts. The only thing that went right for us was the BF but I had to fight

people (not DH) to explain why I was feeding him as a bottle would be better for

him and me. this made things worse. DH was very supportive but this didn't help

and i still worry about DS1 today as i cannot remember anything of his first

year about him, only how awful i felt.

Mc

SAHM 6, Olivia 3, 1, 15/3/00.

nearly ex-Editor Wallingford and District

[Guest guest]

> Hannah Hamer wrote:-

> >. I did my best, but had no help, (it was a comment from a midwife that

> ultimately made me give up) >

>

> Go on Hannah What was the comment from the mw?

> It is surprising what big consequences little comments have especially

when

> the hormones are rushing around the body after having a baby.

>

>

> the affected too

Well, I'd been struggling with b/feeding all week. I had cracked, bleeding

agonisingly painful nipples 24 hours after she was born (had been just

pulling her off the breast in frustration trying to get her latch

correctly - didn't know about releasing the suction first)

Steve had to rush out at 6am the morning after she was born (had discharged

myself from hospital as couldn't stand it) to buy formula as I couldn't bear

to put her to the breast again.

Midwife came and suggested nipple shields which made it marginally less

painful and we struggled on like this throughout the the week. It was still

agonising, and she was having a bottle of formula at about 4am every

morning - I'd never heard of nipple confusion.

Throughout the rest of the week I kept trying to get her to feed without the

nipple shields but she would just scream. I'd been told they reduce supply

and I had to get her off them - no suggestions as to how to do it though!

Midwife came on Friday, and I told her that Bethany was having marathon

feeding sessions of 3 or 4 hours. Draining and very painful for me. I'd been

told not to take the baby of the breast until she'd finished and was

sticking to what I'd been told even if it was hours and hours.

Anyway, the midwife just said that the reason she was feeding for so long

was because the shields made it more difficult for her to get the milk.

Also, that she wouldn't be able to get enough milk if I carried on with the

shields. That comment was just the straw that broke the camels back - I

felt trapped , I couldn't get her off the shields and I couldn't carry on

feeding her for 3 or 4 hours at a time so I decided it was futile and gave

up.

I really think that all it would have taken was a bit of encouragement and

support, along with sensible practical suggestions and I would have

persevered. I wanted to feed her, but at the time with my limited knowledge,

I thought it was hopeless. I did phone LLL during the week and she gave me

basic latching on info over the phone, but I didn't even know what a

correctly latched baby looked like i.e. the flanged lips etc.

To make it worse, I visited my best friend 3 weeks later, who had her

daughter on the same day as me - and she was successfully feeding still with

nipple shields. I was gutted as I'd been told I had to get Bethany off them.

She actually went on to feed her daughter for 10 months WITH nipple shields!

Anyway, I remember that comment from the midwife specifically as the one

that just tipped me over the edge. I half-heartedly tried to re-lactate

after I'd seen my friend but by then Bethany wanted nothing to do with it

(

Hannah, 26

Mum to Bethany 6, Lawrence 4 1/2, Verity 2 and Baby No.4 due Feb 2001

[Guest guest]

BTDT, Cerys. I too was a 'failure' with bfing DS1, but managed with the

next three. With DS1, yes, of course I was going to bf!! It was easy; the

books said so!! So why was he on formula by three weeks? Not enough

support or information, basically.

you really can't beat yourself up because you didn't ask the right questions

at the right time. I think we have pretty much established over the months

that society conspires against helping women bf. You should not have had to

ask questions, someone should have been there to see your difficulties and

solve them for you, not make you beg for answers.

Just MHO

Lesley

-------------------

Cerys said......Well, I had gone into feeding with the attitude that

of course I was going to breastfeed this baby, it was natural, it was the

best thing for the baby etc and I just never thought I'd have any problems,

so when I did it was a great shock and disappointment and I felt as if I was

a failure........

and ........whereas I have nothing to justify the fact that I was unable to

feed so I continue to beat myself up about it.

[Guest guest]

> Hannah wrote:-

> Well, I'd been struggling with b/feeding all week. I had cracked,

bleeding

> agonisingly painful nipples 24 hours after she was born (had been just

> pulling her off the breast in frustration trying to get her latch

> correctly - didn't know about releasing the suction first)

>

I never made it to the cracked and bleeding stage as DS just refused by

shaking his head violently from side to side. Little blighter! I don't even

think I ever felt any suction, even though I knew about the little finger

trick to get them off the breast.

> Steve had to rush out at 6am the morning after she was born (had

discharged

> myself from hospital as couldn't stand it) to buy formula as I couldn't

bear

> to put her to the breast again.

I'd had a section so had been in 5 days, and went home on Christmas day. I

sent DH back to the hospital on Boxing Day for some formula (had to plead

with the m/ws for this),as I was to tense I couldn't express. Other mums who

had had their babies the same time as me decided to give up in the hospital

sto they had been given a few bottles of formula and probably had been

advised what to get before going home. Me - all I had was a Avent hand pump

and one bottle and one teat! (and 2 breasts of course!!!)

>

> Midwife came and suggested nipple shields which made it marginally less

> painful and we struggled on like this throughout the the week. It was

still

> agonising, and she was having a bottle of formula at about 4am every

> morning - I'd never heard of nipple confusion.

>

Ahh! nipple shields. This was the only way I could coax DS to latch on, (my

suggestion when the m/w couldn't get him to comply). They gave him something

he could feel in his mouth and the milk flowed OK to start with. I didn't

give in to formula for 2 weeks (despite the Boxing Day trip!!!) I did still

express and also collected the milk from the other breast in a shell as DS

gave up far too soon by himself. He lost alot of weight to start with and

the M/ws and H/vs were quite concerned and kept weighing him. This didn't

help at all.

What is nipple confusion BTW??????

> Throughout the rest of the week I kept trying to get her to feed without

the

> nipple shields but she would just scream. I'd been told they reduce supply

> and I had to get her off them - no suggestions as to how to do it though!

>

I only heard about the reduction in supply without skin to skin contact from

the NCT BFC. This was about at the 5 week stage and I was in such a state,

physically and mentally, I suppose this was probably the comment which made

me give in.

> Midwife came on Friday, and I told her that Bethany was having marathon

> feeding sessions of 3 or 4 hours. Draining and very painful for me. I'd

been

> told not to take the baby of the breast until she'd finished and was

> sticking to what I'd been told even if it was hours and hours.

>

3 to 4 hours!!!! I kept a diary of exactly how long DS was " latched " on (I

use this term lightly) I was lucky if it was 5 minutes, then I would try the

other side probably 2 minutes.

> Anyway, I remember that comment from the midwife specifically as the one

> that just tipped me over the edge. I half-heartedly tried to re-lactate

> after I'd seen my friend but by then Bethany wanted nothing to do with it

> (

I suppose I toyed with giving up for a couple of weeks. Both DH and DM were

saying it would be better for me to bottle feed. What a depressing time

When I did finally sort of stopped, I woke at 3am with such painful breasts

I was crying my eyes out in pain (I'm crying now just remembering it all) It

was only then that I realised that I would have to wean my breasts from

producing milk. So you can't just make the decision, you have live with it

for a few weeks. I got it down to expressing once a day in the evening when

I made the bottles up and DS always went to bed after a bottle of my milk,

which got less and less each day.

I don't remember having a baby. I couldn't hold him across my tummy due to

the section. He grew up so fast (sitting at 4 1/2 months) His first teeth

came in at 22 weeks so I kept saying to everyone " good job I gave up bf "

Oh well chin up

[Guest guest]

> BTDT, Cerys. I too was a 'failure' with bfing DS1, but managed with the

> next three. With DS1, yes, of course I was going to bf!! It was easy;

the

> books said so!! So why was he on formula by three weeks? Not enough

> support or information, basically.

>

> you really can't beat yourself up because you didn't ask the right

questions

> at the right time. I think we have pretty much established over the

months

> that society conspires against helping women bf. You should not have had

to

> ask questions, someone should have been there to see your difficulties and

> solve them for you, not make you beg for answers.

Lesley I *so* agree with you. I breastfed without a problem because it just

worked. But I wouldn't have had a clue if it hadn't. I did not go to NCT

classes - I was anti-NCT at the time. As a result I now know that my first

birth need not have been as it was, but I didn't know any different at the

time. All I can say to myself is that I did the best with the knowledge and

resources that I had at that moment and the fact that I did my best kept me

going. It's all we can ever do.

love Sue S

[Guest guest]

> What is nipple confusion BTW??????

Not everyone accepts that nipple confusion exists but some people - me

included - believe that babies feed differently with a teat to at the

breast. Bottle feeding teaches them to do it with their mouth a bit more

closed and with their tongue inside their mouth. This doesn't work so well

at the breast when to get a really good latch you need a wide open mouth and

the tongue out over bottom gum. But the baby learns that tongue in gets more

milk (bottle) and so tries to do it that way at every feed. Intermittent

bottles further reinforce that learning in the baby. Which makes

breastfeeding harder and harder.

> I only heard about the reduction in supply without skin to skin contact

from

> the NCT BFC. This was about at the 5 week stage and I was in such a state,

> physically and mentally, I suppose this was probably the comment which

made

> me give in.

Oh , oh dear. We can never be categorical. Some mothers find that

shields do reduce supply, probably because the baby has never learnt to

latch on far enough to fully access all the resevoirs behind the areola. If

the breast is not sufficiently stimulated like this, ie the milk drained off

then it will be inhibited from making more milk. Other mothers find that

milk supply is plentiful even with shields.

> I was crying my eyes out in pain (I'm crying now just remembering it all)

we are with you. if you would find it helpful to talk do call a

breastfeeding counsellor. my number is 01730 893511. Sue H would say the

same.

with love Sue S

[Guest guest]

I'm glad this thread opened up, I think I'm laying some of those demons to

rest just hearing all your oh so similar experiences.

Thanks

Cerys

[Guest guest]

Cerys,

Methinks I am doing the same. I was writing the sob story and crying my

eyes out when my MIL arrived. Although very understanding she just says to

forget it all as I have a lovely healthy little boy, but I think we need to

talk it through. Find that we are not alone.

I went to 2 PND groups a year after DS was born, they helped if only to

know that I was not alone.

Perhaps we should keep the thoughts coming until there is nothing left

to say, and then perhaps the demons will have been well and truely

exorcised.

the feeling better already

> I'm glad this thread opened up, I think I'm laying some of those demons to

> rest just hearing all your oh so similar experiences.

>

> Thanks

>

> Cerys

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

B

illy wrote:

>Cerys,

> Methinks I am doing the same. I was writing the sob story and crying my

>eyes out when my MIL arrived.

<snip>

> Perhaps we should keep the thoughts coming until there is nothing left

>to say, and then perhaps the demons will have been well and truely

>exorcised.

I have posted my own bf story on here and elsewhere and still can't do

it without the tears pouring down my face and my typing getting quicker

and quicker.....

I fed Steffi for 26mo but at what cost I'm still not sure. My

confidence in others' opinions and advice was utterly destroyed in those

first weeks when I was struggling. I didn't even talk to a BFC or LLLL

because I was worried that one more adverse comment would make me quit -

or punch their lights out!!!

I'm not even sure I would have fed her for so long and so determinedly

had I not gone through all the aggro to start with.

I started to type a whole lot more here but have just deleted it all.

Right now I have enough on my plate without stirring this up for myself

yet. Good luck with your own demons. :-)

--

Sue

x

[Guest guest]

Hannah,

you were quite young when you had Bethany (not that you are ancient now though)

do you think that you didn't get much support because you were young or was the

advice in general naff?

Mc

SAHM 6, Olivia 3, 1, 15/3/00.

nearly ex-Editor Wallingford and District

[Guest guest]

.. All I can say to myself is that I did the

> best with the knowledge and resources that I had at that moment and

> the fact that I did my best kept me going. It's all we can ever do.

> love Sue S

>

I keep telling myself this too but there is always a little bit of me

that still feels sad and guilty about not feeding ds1. Most of the

time it hides away but during threads like this and at other times it

pops up to haunt me.

Do we ever get rid of all of the demons all of the time?

[Guest guest]

Sue wrote:-

> I started to type a whole lot more here but have just deleted it all.

> Right now I have enough on my plate without stirring this up for myself

> yet. Good luck with your own demons. :-)

It's OK Sue, when you are ready to share them we'll be here

[Guest guest]

> Hannah,

> you were quite young when you had Bethany (not that you are ancient now

though) do you think that you didn't get much support because you were young

or was the advice in general naff?

> Mc

> SAHM 6, Olivia 3, 1, 15/3/00.

> nearly ex-Editor Wallingford and District

That's never occurred to me before actually. Perhaps there was an

expectation that I would not persevere because of my age, and that affected

the help I received? Possibly.

Hannah, 26

Mum to Bethany 6, Lawrence 4 1/2, Verity 2 and Baby No.4 due Feb 2001

[Guest guest]

Sue S wrote:

>This doesn't work so well

>at the breast when to get a really good latch you need a wide open mouth and

>the tongue out over bottom gum.

Following your demented turtle impression at the Prima Baby Show....

I have been watching my friend's baby. Haven't seen him do it yet (but

I don't see him that often either) - for how long (i.e. to what age) do

babies do this?

Actually, much as I'm generally not a baby fan, I love the way my

friend's baby is often just comforted by bare skin. If she hands him

over to me, he screams blue murder (as babies generally do with me -

vicious circle) but if I put my hand on his chest when he's lying on the

floor getting upset, he'll calm down an awful lot just hugging my hand.

--

Sue

[Guest guest]

Sue W wrote:

I fed Steffi for 26mo but at what cost I'm still not sure. My

confidence in others' opinions and advice was utterly destroyed in

those

first weeks when I was struggling. I didn't even talk to a BFC or LLLL

because I was worried that one more adverse comment would make me quit

- or punch their lights out!!!

I'm not even sure I would have fed her for so long and so determinedly

had I not gone through all the aggro to start with.

-----------------------------

This is like my particular demon. I have 'successfully' breastfed Calvin

for 8 months now, no thanks AT ALL to the 'experts', including all the

midwives (the one who said 'just hold him up and let him suck' and the

visiting m/w who took a look at my totally scabbed over nipples, reached

over and pinched until the milk squirted out and said 'oh, you just had a

plugged duct, it'll be all right now') and the HVs (one who immediately

said I should supplement because he didn't weigh 'enough' of course, not

counting that he had lost 8 ounces early on, and the other who 5 minutes

after her said I should be giving bottles of water, since he was feeding

for too long).

Oh, and the LLL didn't return my call and the NCT gave me postnatal

support in the form of the times for a couple of open houses and a promise

(unfulfilled) to send me the membership info. I had the dubious luck of

havinga millenium baby, so everyone who could have cared was on holiday, I

think.

I'm starting to wonder if I'm only continuing because I want to show

'them' that it can be done, though right now, it's the only way he'll go

to sleep at night without a major crisis. It certainly hasn't been a

blissful bonding experience.

Sorry, this turned into a bit of a rant, but it's still a bitter subject

for me, especially since my nipples have been sore off and on for the past

8 months and Calvin has his first tooth and is scraping a bit.

Phyllis (and Calvin, born 1/1/00)

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Sue Woollett wrote:

> Sue S wrote:

> >This doesn't work so well

> >at the breast when to get a really good latch you need a wide open mouth and

> >the tongue out over bottom gum.

>

> Following your demented turtle impression at the Prima Baby Show....

Har de har har - I'd forgotten about that - what a treat you egroupies

missed

there! Sue Saxey doing a turtle impersonation.....and with confidence

too :-D

Must admit I've raised a few laughs in BF classes when I've tried to

mimic a

baby's head thrashing around, searching for the nipple, so don't feel

I'm making

fun of you Sue.

Lesley M

[Guest guest]

OK, just cos you haven't heard my breastfeeding story for a while....

I breastfed Emma for 10.5 months. I stopped because she did when I went into

hospital. Only going in overnight and ended up stopping two weeks. Left DH

with one bottle of cows milk to help her get to sleep, but when I was supposed

to be coming home I was in ICU. He coped immensely well, Emma took a bottle

and he fed her doorstep milk until I came home. It felt such a let down when

I came home and Emma wasn't interested any more especially as I had struggled

so hard for 14 weeks to get it all established.

Emma fed like a shark from the first feed. She was scary in that she attacked

my nipple rather than latching on. As expected I didn't really get help in

the hospital latching her on - I latched her on and then asked for midwives to

come and see if she was positioned properly. They all looked at her temples

wiggling and said she was fine. She gained weight really well, lots of wet

and yellow nappies. I had enough milk to feed the street. So she was

absolutely fine.

Unfortunately I wasn't. By the time my milk came in on Day 3 I was in

agony. I was kept in the hospital 5 days as they were concerned about the

amount of pain I was in while feeding - no solutions though. I was sent home

because the whole of Harrogate decided to have their babies on one particular

night and they needed my bed. I was discharged into the care of one of the

hospital midwives who was covering for my excellent community midwife.

She kept me on her books for a further 12 days not handing me over to the HV

until I was 17 days post partum because I was still in agony. When my parents

came at 10pp I was expressing, and feeding Emma with a bottle 'to rest my

nipples' which by this time were cracked, scabbed and agony. I did this for

four days. I tried nipple shields - suggested by the MW but they were more

painful than just feeding. I had an emergency bottle of formula, just in case

I couldn't manage it one night. I cried over the night feeds, I didn't want

Emma to wake up to feed, it took me a while at each feed before I plucked up

the courage to put her to the breast.

At about 10 weeks I rang the BFC, who I knew quite well. I had attended

antenatal classes and liked the BFC but couldn't admit I needed help rom

someone new until that point. Remember everyone had watched Emma feed and

said I was doing OK. They blamed it on my fair skin, and told me to get some

spray (rotercept?). I wasn't completely honest with the BFC. I remember

practically reading out one of the NCT leaflets she had given us, when

describing how I latched Emma on. She said it all sounded OK. I felt better

for talking to her but my nipples were still sore.

This continued until 14 weeks when one day my nipples went numb and the pain

stopped. My nipples were also erect for a whole three days at this point

which I believe is because eventually we got the positioning right for the

first time.. When a baby is latched on properly and comes off at the end of

the feed, your nipples stay elongated for a while. Mine never had. Mine were

always squashed flat, white with a strange stripe across them. So instead of

sucking the nipple way back to her soft palate, she compressed it against the

roof of her mouth. Ouch.

So why did I carry on. Well I was absolutely, completely stubborn. Emma was

thriving and that it was my own fault I was sore and that it wasn't fair to

bottle feed her just because I had got it wrong. If she had not gained weight

- I guess I would have stopped but she was doing so well and I was proud that

it was my milk that was keeping her thriving. I set small goals - 6 weeks so

she would have to have her third vit K drops, 3 months, 4 months until we

started weaning, 6 months so that I qualified to train as a BFC etc. I had

just reconciled to the fact that we may be feeding long term when I went into

hospital when she was 10 months old.

So I was absolutely shocked when we covered positioning at a BFC tutorial

(when Emma was about 8 months old) to discover that my positioning was

appalling. She was too far away. She was lying on her back and turning her

head to feed. It was that simple. There was no way she could have got my

nipple far enough back in her mouth to avoid abrasion. I think at 14 weeks

her mouth was big enough to get the nipple far enough back even at a distance,

which was when the pain stopped. It stopped within two or three feeds which

was amazing. I still have the scars of cracks which were open so long though.

At that point I decided to try and get her better positioned but it was too

late really. She had fed that way for 8 months and my nipples had no feeling

what so ever so I just left it. I am so amazed that no-one picked it up. Had

I kept in contact with the BFC I would have asked her to come out to watch me

feed. I am sure she would have seen it but I had already had everyone

including the window cleaner watch me feed and they had all said it looked OK.

So there you are. One happy breastfed child, one mum in agony. No-one picked

up the fact that emma was too far away to get a good latch and as she was

thriving no-one was particularly bothered. I had read everything written on

breastfeeding and still didn't pick it up myself.

It was so unnecessary though. Had one person turned Emma onto her side I

would have been saved 14 weeks of agony. I am just grateful that my hormones

made me stubborn and that I persevered. I am sure I would have fed in agony

all the way through and just accepted that it was my own fair skin. Ho hum.

Sue H.

[Guest guest]

These stories are amazing. It is astonishing how many mums have struggled

against the odds. I won't bore you with my four BF sagas, but being

stubborn rings a bell, and not admitting to oneself that help is needed.

Its even harder to ask for help when its your fourth baby. But these tales

make we wonder about somewhere like Norway, where bf rates are so high. Do

mums there have the same problems or do they approach it somehow differently

so problems are less common there? Maybe when there is a collective culture

of bf, everyone instinctively knows how to do it to avoid problems. Its

very puzzling how something so 'natural' can be so difficult.

Lesley

-------------------------------------------------------------------->

Sue H said.....OK, just cos you haven't heard my breastfeeding story for a

while....

I breastfed Emma for 10.5 months. I stopped because she did when I went

into

hospital.

[Guest guest]

sue.holden wrote about positioning:-

> Had one person turned Emma onto her side I

> would have been saved 14 weeks of agony

I knew all about positioning, but the pain of the caesarean section stopped

me from holding DS across my tummy, so I tried various up and over the side

I was feeding on. So unnatural to me. I had pillows everywhere. And as for

lying down! I couldn't lie down myself for days after I finally got up after

the operation, don't think I slept for 2 weeks due to the inability to lie

down due to the pain. DS slept all the time, which was great for me because

the thought of trying to feed him filled me with dread. My m/w however said

I shouldn't let him sleep for more than 6 hours at a time in the day because

he needed feeding.

What a mess!

(reliving the bad times)

PS didn't cry writing this one - it's getting better