Re: Attn Geng

[Guest guest]

,

My son has an ongoing facial rash that is perplexing and the doctors haven't

been very helpful yet at treating this. I've been discussing this with Deborah

and she's helping me rack my brain at any changes that could be causing an

allergic reaction. One thing I'm considering, I switched him from ProEPA to

ProEFA around the time the rash started. The main ingredient difference between

the two products appears to be Borage Oil. Can you tell me more about borage,

what it is etc. I'm thinking of switching him back over and see if that helps

but I have to change only one thing at a time so it's on my list.

Thanks for any insight you can provide.

Tammy in Oregon

[Guest guest]

Tammy--

Just so you know, I'm experiencing something similar with my son

Drew. It seems that when we add the Borage Oil, he gets a rash of

sorts too-- it's almost like a dry hive thing, but instead of on his

face, it's on his belly and his legs. We've ruled everything else

out, and then stopped the borage oil too. Once we did, it seems like

it is clearing up a bit (I just stopped this past Monday).

I just found this link as to what Borage Oil is:

http://www.vitacost.com/science/hn/Supp/Borage.htm

I also saw that in my Google/ search that some of the top hits

headlined that borage oil did not help atopic dermatitis/eczema, to

which I would respond, " DUH! " from your experience and mine. ;-)

Hope this helps, and I would be interested in any additional info on

how to get a different GLA that is less allergic prone to my kid

(that does not involve eating nuts, as he hates them).

le (mom to itchy Drew 2.7, apraxia and DSI) in NJ

> ,

>

> My son has an ongoing facial rash that is perplexing and the

doctors haven't been very helpful yet at treating this. I've been

discussing this with Deborah and she's helping me rack my brain at

any changes that could be causing an allergic reaction. One thing

I'm considering, I switched him from ProEPA to ProEFA around the time

the rash started. The main ingredient difference between the two

products appears to be Borage Oil. Can you tell me more about

borage, what it is etc. I'm thinking of switching him back over and

see if that helps but I have to change only one thing at a time so

it's on my list.

>

> Thanks for any insight you can provide.

> Tammy in Oregon

[Guest guest]

Hi Tammy! (and le too -ditto all below to you -just read your post)

There have been one or two who gave their child ProEFA and

questioned if a rash their child developed after was from the

oils. In all cases that I can archive either the rash ended up

being from something else -or the person didn't update us. Like

Jackie?! Well?

Ironically borage oil has been well known for treating skin

conditions http://www.fatsforhealth.com/library/libitems/skin.php

Not all found this to be the case: a recent study where the dosages

of borage oil were not only way way way higher than what any of us

use for our children -but " the highest so far investigated " so -mega

dosages -and the worst news is they found is it was not successful

for eczema (but guess they don't follow my dosage, formula and

quality of the oils theory -bet the borage was too high)

Side effects? I did find it funny that during the recent borage oil

research study that out of 124 people including children -2 had to

drop out due to adverse reactions -one had a rash and one had nausea

etc. Why is that funny? Because the two that developed the

negative reactions were both in the " placebo arm "

(Allergic to research perhaps?!)

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=292992

And then there is this recent observation -key word " conflicting "

" Some research has suggested that plant oil extracts containing GLA

have anti-inflammatory effects that may aid in eczema, but the

evidence is conflicting. "

http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=healthNews & storyID=3984621

I can tell you from personal experience from both my son Tanner

(apraxic) who had " baby eczema " and from Glenn who has eczema -as

well as you can read here in the archives -the formula of ProEFA

takes away eczema. When Glenn forgets to take his capsules his

eczema comes back. Tanner's speech regresses long before he would

get eczema again -so not sure if his " baby eczema " would come back?

When will they realize that it's the formula and not " just " the GLA

or DHA or EPA that always matters?

Anyway my advice because I've got 2 kids pulling me off the computer

here - Even though the chance that the rash is from either the fish

or borage oil -I'd say to stop everything and anything new and that

includes the ProEFA (I would stop the ProEPA as well for now) and

watch to see if the rash goes away.

First step is finding out -is this rash from illness, something you

are washing the clothes with, something he is eating, etc. And most

important is to get rid of it!

There is the coincidence factor -meaning your child may have

developed the rash anyway -however I believe it's wise to take signs

of a possible allergic reaction seriously -see archive message

below. This is also one of the reasons that as a group I recommend

starting with just one capsule, slow, and working up to higher

dosages - in cases where one is not sure if the child is allergic -

starting with a drop of oil and working up may be needed.

Run all this by your child's MD -this is the typical protocol posted

here.

Whenever you are not sure if either positive or negative reactions

are from the oil therapy -stop the oils -observe -see if the

positive or negative signs fade or go away. Then start the oils

again and observe if they come back.

So stop the oils -watch to see if the rash goes away.

If the rash goes away give it a few weeks and then you can either

rub the oil on your child's skin to see if a rash develops -or give

just a drop and observe. If there is no reaction you can increase

to 2 drops and again observe -and slowly raise up to a full capsule

this way.

Why do I love borage or primrose oil for most of our children in a

small ratio to the Omega 3 oils? Borage oil like primrose oil are

Omega 6 oils (GLA) which have very strong anti inflammatory

properties. Some say borage has stronger anti inflammatory

properties -but depends on who you speak to. The borage oil used in

the ProEFA is from the seed of the plant -so it does not contain

PAs. My theory as to why the Omega 3 alone doesn't work as well is

that perhaps the small amount of GLA in the formula we found to be

most successful -the Omega 3/6 formulas -enables the EPA and DHA to

get to where it's needed in the small vessels of the brain.

From: " kiddietalk " <kiddietalk@...>

Date: Tue Oct 7, 2003 10:36 am

Subject: Re: New here- possible allergy to proefa(rash)?

Hi Jackie and welcome!

Marina and Deborah are right about taking food allergies seriously.

Good things most know to. I was just at a parent counsel meeting at

my kids school helping to plan the Fall Festival and when someone

suggested M & M's we all learned that we can't have the plain M & Ms

either because they are made in the same plant as the peanut ones -

so there could be trace amounts of peanut in the plain.

I learned something new that day (and of course came home to check

it out online)

" The FDA requires manufacturers to label the ingredients in all food

products. Some companies, like Nestles and Mars, list peanuts as

ingredients in candy that does not contain nuts. This candy is

manufactured on the same equipment used to make peanut candy, and

peanut dust may remain during the manufacturing process. To very

sensitive individuals, this trace amount would be enough to cause an

allergic reaction. "

http://www.livingwithout.com/feature_peanuts.htm

http://www.townonline.com/boxford/news/local_regional/tri_newttallergiescbb09102\

\003.htm

http://uumor.pair.com/nutalle2/peanutallergy/Forum23/HTML/000022.html

The other reason to know what the rash is from -is to find out if

it's a rash or baby eczema which is not uncommon in this group. I

had Tanner back and forth to the pediatrician a zillion times before

I finally got the referral to the pediatric dermatologist to

diagnose the baby eczema Tanner had. This was of course all long

before we started any fish oil supplementation at around 3 -in fact

his baby

eczema was a sign to all that his body was deficient in EFAs! Well

let me tell you that Tanner, before the actual diagnosis of baby

eczema, was

diagnosed with everything from allergic reaction to ring worm! (Ok

we all live and learn. They were an awesome practice and right on

the ball with my son Dakota. With Tanner -our " healthy " baby - very,

too

laid back. That was also the same pediatric group that told us not

to go for a speech and hearing evaluation with Tanner until three)

Funny thing is that once on the EFAs at three -Tanner's eczema

became just a

funny memory about trips to the MD -it's gone. That's why you want

to know for sure what the rash is. Allergy, disease, or skin

condition.

Here is some info on food allergies just in case it's that. Hope

it's not but even if it is a food allergy -odds are in your favor

it's not the fish Jack is allergic too. 80% of children with

food allergies are not allergic to fish -and only 2% of the adult

population has food allergies which would include fish. (chart below)

" In young children the most common triggers are egg, milk, soy,

wheat, peanut and fish. Milk and egg are by far the major culprits.

The good news is that food allergies to milk and egg are the most

common food allergies to go away with time - 75 to 85% of children

will outgrow egg and milk allergy by age 3. In general, one third of

all food allergies will go away with time, except for peanut and

fish allergies. "

Up to two million, or 8%, of children in the United States are

estimated to be affected by food allergies, and up to 2% of adults

are affected. Food allergy often occurs in patients with a history

of other allergic diseases, particularly asthma, rhinitis and atopic

dermatitis.

Six foods account for 90% of food allergy reactions in children:

Milk

Egg

Peanuts

Wheat

Soy

Tree nuts

Four foods account for 90% of food allergy in adults:

Peanuts

Tree nuts

Fish

Shellfish

http://www.aaaai.org/patients/advocate/2001/summer/atopicdermatitis.stm

Food Allergies

Symptoms of a Severe Allergic Reaction

A severe allergic reaction is very serious and requires immediate

attention. Usually within as few as 5 to 15 minutes, though symptoms

may progress over several hours, the child will have swelling of the

lips or tongue, throat and airways making it difficult to breathe

and will start to wheeze. She may also have stomach cramps and start

to vomit and even lose consciousness. Immediately call 911 or seek

medical attention - even if the symptoms seem to subside on their

own.

This information is for educational purposes only and is not to be

used for self-diagnosis or as a substitute for the medical care and

advice of your doctor. There may be variations in treatment that

your doctor may recommend based on individual facts and

circumstances.

Less severe allergic reactions include hives, eczema, stubborn

rashes (including diaper rash), itching, stomach cramps, vomiting,

diarrhea, swelling of the hands, feet, face or lips or itching of

the mouth or lips. If you notice these on your child you should talk

to your pediatrician and try to track and eliminate the cause. "

http://www.safechild.net/for_parents/foodallergies.html

=====

[Guest guest]

le (oh.. such a pretty name

Thank you so much for the information. I am tired of fighting with eczema on

my son. I put prescription lotion twice daily and it seems just getting

worse. I thought of everything, except of course, borage oil. We fought for

so long and now getting dermatologist appointment but now I don't need it.

Again, thank you for your message. It is clear to me.

My son also having huge tantrums lately. He screams my ears off and I am

ready to stop ProEFA.

, mom of 5yo

[Guest guest]

Hello Tammy & le

This may be way off, but thought I would mention anyways. The hive like

rash you mention sounds just like a rash my mom recently got when she

purchased some new furniture & new carpets. You didn't just buy any of

these things lately? Seems my mom is allergic to something they put on

this, maybe a scotch guard or something. For her it lasted months. With

the new furniture she put sheets on the chair she sits on but for the carpet

she had to suffer. Just wondering, it took her a while to figure out what

it was. Unfortunately she needs more new furniture but is afraid to make

any purchases!!

Tammy I. in FL mom to 5 1/2 apraxic

From: " windsornot " <windsornot@...>

Reply-

Subject: [ ] Re: Attn

[Guest guest]

Hi !

I'm happy to hear you are discontinuing the ProEFA (and the ProEPA

too?) to see -and please keep us updated as to what happens here in the

group so we have this in the archives for future parents who have

the same question. (like any regressions in speech-rash not going away etc.)

My only question to you is if this rash has been puzzling to the

doctors for some time -why didn't you stop the oils prior? I know

for Tanner when he had the baby eczema that was misdiagnosed around

3 times by the various pediatric MDs in the practice we were part of

at the time prior to them finally giving us the referral to the

pediatric dermatologist who immediately diagnosed the baby eczema -

the first questions from all were " have you changed his diet, soap,

etc. " Once correctly diagnosed and treated by the dermatologist -

his excema went away -but we needed to use the creams and soaps or

the rash came back...again once on the EFAs -the rash never came

back no matter what soap. As long as my husband takes his ProEFA it works (his

eczema comes back when he forgets)

Would the ProEFA formula work for all with eczema -apparently (?) not

-however I know for a fact it would really well work for at

least a moderate percentage -and be significant enough (and benign

enough) for MDs to at least suggest trying it.

Not the same O3/O6 formula we use -but there are research studies

that borage oil does help eczema (just one Henz BM, et al. Double-

blind, multicentre analysis of the efficacy of borage oil in

patients with atopic eczema. Br J Dermatology 1999;140:685-8) This

is a newer area of research that is still being explored. As we

know in this group if they did a research study to see if " DHA "

helps children with speech impairments and they use a pure Omega 3 -

and even less likely -a pure Omega 3 higher in DHA than EPA...the

results would be zero to close to zero chance of it working. Would

that mean that EFAs don't work? (Did anyone but us watch Lorenzo's

Oil?)

Even as parents we were able to find out with our children that all

that matters when it comes to EFAs are formula, dosage and quality

of the oils. Most of us that switch find out that all fishy

smelling oils are not created equal...for example most of us consume

Omega 6 in our diets yet if it's not in the oil formula we give our

children -most of us report little or mostly no change.

http://www.cherab.org/information/historyEFA.html

The key point I like about the recent study is that even with mega

dosages of borage oil there appears to be no side effects -on a

short term basis at least. I myself am not into mega dosages of

most anything (except chocolate) In most cases in life moderation

is key (except chocolate) As we all know recently from news reports

the recent dangerous (fatal) hazing activity was not with alcohol ...it was

with water! Yet would anyone say " stop drinking water " ?

http://www.capitalnews9.com/content/headlines/?ArID=52893 & SecID=33

In this group the amount of borage (seed -so no PAs at

all) oil we give our children is literally a few drops a day.

Even when all variables are as equal as possible -there is always

the exception to the rule. And the bright side of that is that is

just another way that God shows you he made your child special!

=====

[Guest guest]

Hi

I spoke to about this today. We had the tantrum thing too (Jordan is a

very mild kid....YES, ADHD, but definitely not a tantrum kind of child, or

agressive.....) Pro EFA made him unbelievably hyper, the tantrums were

unbelievable...he ran away from me in a department store, was hiding in the legs

of the mens pants (my mom and I laugh like the dickens at that NOW, but when we

couldn't find him it was not at all funny.....) They were ready to shut down

Bloomingdales, it was at the point we had NO IDEA where had gone, until a

customer heard him giggling, stuck in a rack of mens pants.....as I told the

list, it was nearing midnight and he was in the kitchen, spinning around like a

top, arms outstretched, singing " Hakuna Matada " ...word for word......clearly,

mind you.....but absolutely OUT OF CONTROL.....I don't think he or WE slept for

3 days. This was after only 3 doses.

I do have a theory on this (rocket science, of course, nothing I've proven.....)

but there are time you just gotta stop giving something....even if it's

temporarily.

Good luck to you and

~Karyn

Re: [ ] Re: Attn

[Guest guest]

Hey ,

The EFAs have not helped 's eczema at all. In fact, one of the

reasons we even started the EFAs was that I thought there was more

research about eczema and the EFAs. I was more hopeful about the

eczema than the speech. Oh well, it didn't help the eczema, but it

did help the speech.

Suzi

[Guest guest]

My 7 year old daughter has eczema. What medications is your son

using? Has your son seen a dermatologist and an allergist?

Have you tried protopic yet?

How bad is the eczema?

has it on her legs. It's worse in the summer. It will crack

and bleed and get infected.

We've gotten to the point where we pretty much ignore it, unless

it's really bad. When it starts to get bad, we put the protopic on,

and we put Cetaphil lotion on. We also use the mild soaps, and she

doesn't take baths every day.

The way I look at it is that she is never going to get over it, so

we better just get use to it.

The EFAs did not effect 's eczema at all. I had read research

that it would help, but it didn't. However, it didn't hurt.

How long has your son been on the EFAs? had tantrums the

first time we started her on the EFAs, but she was also suffering

from recurring sinus infections. I stopped for a few months and

restarted in the spring after cold and flu season. The second time

around, she did great and we got a surge.

Good luck!

Suzi

[Guest guest]

Thanks for that information le. I think I'll be switching Mark back to

ProEPA since taking him off of milk hasn't done the trick. He went for about a

week with a clear face and then bang it's back again. It also may link to going

outside. We were inside for that week due to rain and illness, then we had a

snowfall and he went out in it. It's almost like he has two things going on,

eczema being one and this hives/rash thing another. This is frustrating to say

the least.

Tammy

[Guest guest]

Thanks Tammy, but we haven't purchased anything new or changed detergents or any

of that. The only two things that I know changed right about the time this

happened are that I switched Mark from ProEPA to Complete Omega (ProEFA) and he

also started wanting to drink milk which he traditionally didn't get much of

before. I've switched him to rice milk and we are watching his diet. I've had

three people tell me to take him off the EFA but I've been afraid to because it

is helping him a lot mentally. It seems to be the next logical thing to try.

Tammy in Oregon

RE: [ ] Re: Attn

[Guest guest]

tammy

the hives/rash may be a reaction from going out in the cold. a friend of

mine couldn't tolerate any cold. amazing she still lives on long island, ny.

but

she would always have to bundle up tremendously and it would even affect her

breathing if she was exposed for too long. should check it out with an

allergist/immunoligist.

lori

[Guest guest]

Hey Tammy--

While that would make sense, in my case, nope, not the culprit. I

promise you that absolutely nothing has changed-- no new furniture,

no new carpets, no changes in his laundry products, no changes in his

diet-- the only change was the addition of the borage oil. We even

ruled out the possibility of just plain old dry skin from overheating

at night or in his bath, and we were lotioning up his body (with

products that had been successful before), and it still remained. I

stopped it a few days ago, and it seems to be slowly but surely

improving. I only listed that one website so that others could judge

for themselves based on the facts what they wanted.

I'm thinking that Drew is just plain allergic to this at this

point...since it's the only change that he's had in his diet or other

environs. Since I have allergiest to several plants myself, usually

the pollen, but not limited to that (like I can't have chamomile tea,

for example without an allergic reaction), maybe Drew is just

allergic to borage, and it's just that rare thing. I'm going to give

it a little bit more time to see if his skin continues to clear up,

and if it does, then we've done our elimination, unfortunately. He

hasn't had a problem with taking just Omega-3s/fish oil, so that will

stay. Maybe it's a matter of looking at the Stordy book again and

seeing if there's an alternative I can use which I know he's okay

with. For example, I remember olive oil having GLAs, but I don't

remember the amounts offhand. We don't use butter around here, so

maybe it's a matter of adding more olive oil (which I know he doesn't

react to) in his diet daily. I have to do some more homework, it

looks like.

Oh well.

But thanks for the suggestions! If that were the case, I would be

saying, " ah-hah! " , but alas, such is not the case. I could use some

new furniture and carpets too. ;-)

le

[Guest guest]

Interesting point, Lori.

I've raised my son so that he doesn't know much about cold. I don't think

I've ever seen him shivering or getting goose bumps from cold. I have heater

in his room and I always dress him to prevent chills. Looks like a bit of

cold weather got under my son's jacket I wish it was so simple in our

situation. BTW, we saw allergist but he had nothing to say about rash.

, mom of 5yo

Re: [ ] Re: Attn

[Guest guest]

Hi Lori,

I agree ...and I think in part it is. However the rash started in late July

when we were in the 90s. We stayed unseasonally hot (70s and 80s) until

mid-November this year. I know, this is driving me nuts. We have an

appointment with his pediatrician on Thursday and she'll be getting an earful.

Between the face issues, and my concerns about PANDAS and strep it may be a long

appointment.

Tammy in Oregon

Re: [ ] Re: Attn

[Guest guest]

the hives/rash may be a reaction from going out in the cold. a friend of

> mine couldn't tolerate any cold. amazing she still lives on long island,

ny. but

My oldest just had a blood test to check for this...can't remember

exactly what it was called but basically it's because he gets hives from

going out in the cold. There is a test you can have to check for

this...ask your allergist

Annemarie

No matter the storm, when you're with God there's always a rainbow at the

end

[Guest guest]

Between the face issues, and my concerns about PANDAS and strep it may be a

long appointment.

Would have mentioned this with the last post but haven't really been able to

be up to date lately so didn't realize the whole picture. I have another

child that we suspect PANDAS...never really recovered from his third bout

with Scarlet Fever. He also got a rash right after that that lasted for

almost 2 years and that no dietary changes or prescription creams seemed to

help and then one doctor suggested trying canastin cream..used for yeast

infections...and that in combination with removing all yeast producing foods

was the only thing that worked. I'm pretty sure the whole problem with the

rash was immune system related due to the strep/PANDAS problem

Annemarie

No matter the storm, when you're with God there's always a rainbow at the

end

[Guest guest]

One thing that had is called molluscum. It looks like a rash,

but it really is a pox virus. The molluscum can be aggravated by

eczema creams. Our pediatrician prescribed more eczema creams for

and it made the molluscum soooo bad. Finally, I went to a

dermatologist and he correctly prescribed it.

It can last from 6 months to a 18 months. There are only a few ways

to get rid of it. One is to develop an immunity to it. The other

is to scoop out each little pox. The dermatologist actually had us

put this Retin-A cream that kind of burned off the molluscum. We

also stopped using the eczema creams except on areas that didn't

have the molluscum and were extremely irritated (her feet).

It took several months, but finally got rid of it.

I'll post some links. Don't get freaked out about the links. Most

of them mention that it is a sexually transmitted disease. Grant it

is because if you have it in that part of your skin, you can

transmit during sex.

Kids transmit it easier. If someone has eczema, they are more

susceptible to it.

Here's a link about it:

http://www.aad.org/pamphlets/molluscum.html

http://www.mckinley.uiuc.edu/health-info/dis-cond/commdis/moll-

con.html

http://www.ashastd.org/stdfaqs/molcon.html

Glad your taking your son to a dermatologist.

[Guest guest]

Hey Suzi this wasn't for me -the part about about " Glad your taking

your son to a dermatologist " was it?

Just in case I want to make it clear that Tanner had baby eczema pre

EFAs, so prior to three years old - over four years ago now.

He no longer has baby eczema -or any eczema... or any rashes.

(See the subject name not changing is confusing even me!)

=====

[Guest guest]

Not for you.

> Hey Suzi this wasn't for me -the part about about " Glad your

taking

> your son to a dermatologist " was it?

>

> Just in case I want to make it clear that Tanner had baby eczema

pre

> EFAs, so prior to three years old - over four years ago now.

> He no longer has baby eczema -or any eczema... or any rashes.

>

> (See the subject name not changing is confusing even me!)

>

> =====

>

[Guest guest]

Suzi,

As I understand, there have to be a test under microscope in order to

determine if rash is viral. I guess if its true then he must have gotten

from school therefore they should have other kids with this virus. I don't

know if I should go ahead and report it to the teacher or wait till we see

dermatologist. I've checked your websites and still not sure if leisons look

like molluscum, however, I can be in denial.

Thanks for all your great information!

[Guest guest]

We didn't report it to the school when had molluscum. The

doctor said we didn't need to. The school really couldn't do much.

I put her in pants or tights so that no one could touch her legs.

The other thing was to keep home, but it can take anywhere

from 3 months - 18 months to get rid of it. After we saw the

dermatogist, it took about 2 months to get rid of it. I think

had it for a total of about 4 months.

I don't know if got it from school or from swimming in a

public pool. I just know it started sometime last fall. According

to her doctor, it's a fairly common virus.

The doctor just looked at the rash. The molluscum has this little

thing inside each little pox place. It's a hard tiny little

nodule. That's how the doctor determined had the molluscum.

He scooped out several of the little nodules.

For your info, the pictures were not very good at showing what

's looked like.

I'm glad your going to the dermatologist. Let us know what the doc

says. It's a mystery.