Re: BPD - Theory

[Guest guest]

Exactly the same in my house.................but of course, last nite, after

exiting her room,

she threw and broke the remote to her TV on the door, after having told her

she could not have back the illegal drugs I found in her room yesterday. Then

again this morning, not getting up for school. Such as it is, another day in

the life..............

I've just read and printed the entire theory, could not have written it any

better myself and contains my sentiments and thoughts exactly. Developmental

is what I have been saying all along.

Debbie

[Guest guest]

Matt

I certainly do relate to the " well meaning pediatricians " . They would

always chalk it up to the terrible 2's and so on. Well we're still in

them 14 years later After awhile I just stopped calling them, their

answers weren't working and I really didn't feel like they understood.

Actually I had to change dr.s because he doesn't believe in child

phychiatrist and the medications. And being she has been on meds for

about 4 years and I don't feel like it has gotten better (although I

don't know what she would be like without them) I don't know who is

right anymore.

[Guest guest]

Dear Edith,

Please add me to your Gal Friday list.

[Guest guest]

Please add my name to your Gal Friday list. Thank you.

Re: BPD - Theory

Hi and Matt,

While we're waiting for Rivka to get back with her info, I do want to

mention that the genetics/heredity/environment issue is still not

resolved. SWOE was written for high-functioning BPs. SWOE is a landmark

book because it addresses the basics. For example, BPs can be

" situationally competent " & etc but under **STRESS** they can revert to

the *unconsciously driven* (ego) defense mechanisms that we're all so

familiar with -- ie, projection (ie, placing their blame/shame stuff on

others), denial, rationalization (ie, telling lies and re-writing

history), splitting (into all-good vs all-bad), raging, & etc. This

prevents the BP from feeling their (emotional) pain.

I'm familiar with those defense mechanisms because of my deceased

mother's and hubby's BPD. I didn't have a child with BPD but we have

several BPs (genetic) in the family. In simple terms, what can happen is

that family members learn to walk on eggshells to keep the BP happy so

the BP won't revert to their *unconsciously* driven defense mechanisms

(listed in chapter 3 of SWOE). This makes it especially difficult within

the family because the control that is normally exerted by a parent (via

boundaries) is seen by the BP child through their cognitively distorted

lens as an attempt to CONTROL them -- ie, to take away their CONTROL.

And, this can begin very early in life. BPs do well, however, in a very

stable (highly predictable) environment.

My BP mother was VERY non-functional. It was like having a 2 yo in

charge of raising us kids. My BP hubby was higher functioning -- like a

5-8 yo bully. They both also had NPD traits so as kids my sister and I

were hit a lot whereas my BP hubby was less physically violent. Physical

violence is associated more with NPD than BPD. There is no 'pure' BPD.

I studied psychology in order to find answers but there were none during

my years as a college student. I first learned about BPD here on the

Internet where I met Randi in 1996 with SWOE yet unwritten in her head.

My BA and MA (1964) degrees are in clinical psychology but I never

became a therapist. I was also trained as a research psychologist and

subsequently spent 37 consecutive full-time years at the college level

behind the podium teaching statistics, psychobiology, and research

methods. The research for my MA thesis was published in Science (AAAS)

in 1965 and I was invited into the PhD program at UCLA but my BP hubby

said No!, that it was time for me to get a job. He didn't like to work

and my paycheck was crucial in putting a roof over our heads and food in

our mouths.

BPD wasn't admitted into the DSM until 1980. The first book for the lay

public was Kreisman's I Hate You - Don't Leave Me, which was published

in 1989, and then SWOE was first published in 1998. So, historically,

everything that's being learned today about BPD is still relatively new.

If anyone is interested, I have a read-only list, my Gal Friday list

that anyone can join. That's where I keep the info that's relatively new

that I've been collecting about BPD. My Gal Friday list is at:

http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/GalFriday

or

send me an email and I'll add your name to my Gal Friday list.

- Edith

List Manager / WelcomeToOz Family of NonBP Email Support Groups

patrick wrote:

> This is getting way beyond my level of expertise.

> However I did see unusual behavior from my daughter

> right from the cradle. There were periods of 'normal'

> behavior but looking back it was always there. Early

> on it was glossed over by well meaning pediatricians.

> I can't deny however that my 24 yr old daughters

> behavior often takes on the characteristics of a ten

> year old.

>

>

> --- Matt Love wrote:

>

>>The theory is interesting, but I think it needs

>>work. The anonymous author speaks of arrested

>>emotional development. What I actually experienced,

>>with my ex-wife, who I knew from the age of 15, and

>>my daughter who I knew all her life, was a

>>regression to child-like behavior. My daughter

>>seemed quite mature and dependable for her age,

>>hitting a peak of emotional maturity at about 14.

>>Her behavior started to worsen, and between the age

>>of 19 and 21 rapidly spiralled into a condition that

>>goes way beyond age inappropriateness. Cutting,

>>suicidal behavior, eating disorders, etc are not

>>normal behaviors for a child of any age.

>>

>>I'd like to point out that there was a post just

>>today where the poster said " I want my old daughter

>>back. " That pretty well sums it up - if the child

>>was suspended in a state of arrested development,

>>there would be no old daughter to want.

>>

>>My ex really started to go bad (like an apple or a

>>banana!) at the age of 19, and what was eerie and

>>frightening was to see a person you know disappear,

>>and a new, bizarre disfunctional personality replace

>>it. It was heartbreaking to see the pattern

>>repeated in my daughter.

>>

>>I lean heavily towards the nature, rather than the

>>nurture side of the argument. Of course my daughter

>>experienced trauma as a young child. As the child

>>of a sick person, she was bound to be. However, as

>>I said, she developed well and seemed remarkably

>>unaffected until she was years away from the

>>experience. Then she began to recapitulate her

>>mother's behavior at the same age - not behaviors

>>she had been exposed to, but behaviors I had

>>observed due to my unique vantage point.

>>

>>What about children that experience trauma who do

>>not become borderline?

>>

>>While I don't think the trauma theory alone is

>>satisfactory, I could accept a theory that contains

>>element of both - like a theory of diabetes that

>>includes a genetic predisposition, and illness or

>>lifestyle choices that catalyze it.

>>

>>But why would my daughter's behavior go off track 10

>>years after she'd had much contact with her mother,

>>when our lives were better than they had ever been?

>>It would suggest the triggering element was internal

>>(hormonal change, or something along those lines)

>>rather than something in the emotional environment.

>>

>>It seems most like the onset of schizophrenia to me

>>- and while it's regarded as a retreat from

>>enlightenment to blame parents for their children's

>>schizophrenia, people with borderline children often

>>seem eager to blame the parents - the other parent

>>usually. Perhaps your spouse or ex-spouse was

>>responsible for your child's BPD, but not in the way

>>you think. Perhaps it was their genetic endowment,

>>and not their behavior.

>>

>>I know American popular mythology says that we are

>>blank slates, that we can endlessly transform

>>ourselves, chose anything we want for ourselves,

>>etc. But the facts are that we're not. We may not

>>like the idea that people might be genetically

>>pre-ordained to be borderline, but maybe they are.

>>I'd prefer to think this is an organic condition

>>that might be mitigated through treatment, rather

>>than being behaviors that my daughter is CHOOSING,

>>in the way that I make choices for myself.

>>

>>I know that I used to have a different set of

>>beliefs about this. I used to believe that my ex was

>>the way she was because of childhood experiences. I

>>spent years trying to reason with her, to fill up

>>her empty heart by loving and acceptiing her no

>>matter what the cost to me. And I was deterimined

>>to be a completely different kind of parent than her

>>parents were - I was active and engaged, and

>>supportive, and physically demonstrated my love. It

>>ultimately didn't make any difference, and after I

>>came to terms with my failure, realized that the

>>deck was stacked against me from the beginning, and

>>I forgave my ex in-laws for their parenting, just as

>>I forgave myself for mine. I felt bad for blaming

>>them for how they parented. They were not devils (a

>>view of my ex's that I at least partially bought

>>into) they were just ordinary people doing the best

>>they could, the same as me. And if they made choices

>>that were different than mine, well, in the long run

>>it didn't really make a whole lot of difference.

>>

>>Different people may have different experiences - we

>>could be talking about a cluster of subtly, or

>>not-so-subtly different related (or unrelated)

>>conditions. Anybody else prepared to build on the

>>genetic hypothesis? Or to refute it?

>>

Send questions & concerns to WTOParentsOfBPs-owner . " Stop

Walking on Eggshells, " a primer for non-BPs can be ordered via 1-888-35-SHELL

(). For the table of contents, see http://www.BPDCentral.com

[Guest guest]

Hi Pat,

Those BPs who can hold a job and manage their affairs pretty good beyond

the confines of the home are considered to be high-functioning. A lot of

BPs work in the helping professions (eg, doctors, nurses, teachers,

etc). It makes them feel good about their tiny and/or fragmented self

when they put on the uniform. And, its the high-functioning BPs who may

at some point consider that there's something wrong with them and commit

to therapy. But this may not happen until they hit the bottom. Without

that commitment, BPs don't move forward.

I can relate from some personal experience. My mother and hubby were

both low functioning. My mother was an emotional 2 yo and my hubby was

emotionally a 5-7 yo bully. My mother was not able to hold a job and I

can imagine what a relief it must have been to my g'parents when she and

my father got married. My mother had no " lucid moments " , insight into

her own behavior, or about the harm she was doing to us kids. She was

selfish, she lacked empathy, didn't learn from her mistakes, and was a

witch/queen by Lawson's schema (in Lawson's book titled Understanding

The Borderline Mother (UBM)). There was no therapy, or even a BPD label,

available when I majored in psych in college and for most of the years

that my mother and hubby were alive.

Usually BPs wear a mask for ppl they meet outside the home but they drop

their mask(s) behind the closed doors of Home Sweet Home. My mother put

no effort into wearing a mask for anybody that I ever saw. My mother was

mostly the queen, but she was a witch when she felt that she needed to

CONTROL us kids -- which she did through FOG (Fear, Obligation, and/or

Guilt). And we were beaten a lot (BPs don't usually beat their kids).

The queen part was her NPD. She and my hubby were both BPD/NPD combos.

My hubby couldn't stand to work for anyone either but his personna

outside the home was as Mr Wonderful.

I'm not quite sure what you're asking in your email, below, about

" modifying/managing " your life for a lower functioning BP. Everyone is

responsible for their own behavior, even BPs. The reason I learned to

walk on eggshells was to prevent his and her raging and out-of-control

behavior. I didn't know then that I had a choice -- ie, that I could

have walked away. I was never given choices either by my mother or hubby

and I took care of them both until they died. I was trained to be a

co-dependent enabler and it took years of hard and painful work to

overcome it.

I first learned about BPD in 1996 -- eight years ago on Randi's first

start-up WelcomeToOz list here on the Internet and I had to wait two

years before SWOE was published (1998). UBM was published in the year

2000. And since then there's another book for the adult children of BPs

titled Surviving The Borderline Parent by Roth and Friedman (2003).

The validation and support I received on these NonBP lists over the

years were a life saver. Besides SWOE and the workbook (SWOEW), there is

now a booklet available for the parents of BPs titled Hope for Parents.

Info is available about these on the BPDCentral.com website. Also, I

suggest that one has their own therapist who is knowledgable about the

effects of BPD on family members.

- Edith

List Manager / WelcomeToOz Family of NonBP Email Support Groups

patrick wrote:

> Thanks Edith. One question I have from your comments:

> Since you state that swoe is written for high

> functionng BPs are you inferring that the suggestons

> and recommendations as to how to manage your life be

> modified for a lower functioning BP?

> Thanks again.

> Pat