RE: Countering Negative Dialogues

May 24, 2004

Hi Chris

Perhaps you may like to get him one of the puppies. Could be that these darling

animals may help to 'soften' the anger BP's feel inside. Dont know really - just

a thought.

Cheers

Kate

wrote:

> Does anyone have any " pointers " on how to handle what I call " negative

dialogues "

>

> Today I took my 26yo BP son to see his psychologist and on the way home he

started one of his " negative dialogues " :

>

> " I am a waste of space " ; " I don't why all you people want to keep me alive " ;

" what have I really contributed to in the last 10 years, I might as well notbe

here " ; " I loathe myself " ; " I hate myself " ; etc, etc. I can never find the right

words to counter these statements, so mostly I sit there and say nothing or say

" I don't know " - and it is very frustrating!

>

> These get worse and worse. In my inadequate way I try hard to " counter " and

" challenge " them by pointing out positive aspects of his life and try to get him

to focus on the future and show him how well he has been doing recently, even if

the steps are small ones. But these don't work well.

>

> These negative dialogues can get worse and worse and eventually lead to a rage

outburst.

>

> Today however, when we got home and in the door I just said to him - OK - lets

go around and see your friend - his dog has had new pups and we should go and

see them. He reluctantly agreed, but it was enough to distract him and I ended

up going to work and now I am home and he said that the rest of his day was

good. He even produced a new CD of his dance music.

>

> Any ideas?

>

> Chris.

>

May 24, 2004

Hi

Sure, I have some ideas.

When in a closed space (for example, when riding in a car with a BP),

the parent/SO/child is in a place they can't leave -- that is, they're a

captive audience and, thus, can't leave/*abandon* the BP. BPs can take

advantage of this by yanking on *emotional* FOG (Fear, Obligation and

Guilt) " hooks " they've planted in their parent/SO/child.

One of the things your son may be communicating in his statements is the

unspoken " ... and its all your fault " (ie, projection). And, when you

counter he hears it as you *splitting* him " all bad " . Notice that your

son's statements, below, all begin with " I " statements. These are his

attempts to engage you so that you can eventually feel his feelings for

him -- and when this happens it can escalate to rage. You might practice

not engaging in the dialogue (but if/when you do, use " I " , not " you "

statements) when he does that and don't take what he says personally.

One has to remember: Everyone is responsible for their own behavior --

even BPs.

The BP must eventually learn to assume responsibility for his thoughts

and actions and that's what therapy (such as DBT) is all about.

Actually, not responding (ie, by not " countering " and not " challenging " )

is a boundary but BPs like things the way they were (ie, predictable,

with you countering and challenging) and will fight tooth-and-nail to

prevent your setting any new boundaries. My suggestion would be to stay

calm (ie, not raise your voice), try to not take his stuff personally,

don't engage by countering or challenging, and don't ride in a car with

a BP.

One can set new boundaries with BPs but it takes a lot of time,

practice, patience and repetition. You might also re-read chapter 7 of

SWOE and your mantra (repeated to yourself over and over) during those

difficult times could be " Its not about me. "

When you leave when a BP is raging, make sure the BP knows when you'll

be back -- you could say, " I'll be back in 5 minutes when you have

yourself under control. " And do exactly as a you say (ie, be

predictable). If, after that 5-minute 'time-out', the BP still doesn't

have themself under control, take another 5-minute time-out. BPs like

ppl to be predictable. It makes the BP feel that they're in control. Not

feeling that they're in control is one of BP's greatest fears.

- Edith

wrote:

> Does anyone have any " pointers " on how to handle what I call " negative

dialogues "

>

> Today I took my 26yo BP son to see his psychologist and on the way home he

started one of his " negative dialogues " :

>

> " I am a waste of space " ; " I don't why all you people want to keep me alive " ;

" what have I really contributed to in the last 10 years, I might as well notbe

here " ; " I loathe myself " ; " I hate myself " ; etc, etc. I can never find the right

words to counter these statements, so mostly I sit there and say nothing or say

" I don't know " - and it is very frustrating!

>

> These get worse and worse. In my inadequate way I try hard to " counter " and

" challenge " them by pointing out positive aspects of his life and try to get him

to focus on the future and show him how well he has been doing recently, even if

the steps are small ones. But these don't work well.

>

> These negative dialogues can get worse and worse and eventually lead to a rage

outburst.

>

> Today however, when we got home and in the door I just said to him - OK - lets

go around and see your friend - his dog has had new pups and we should go and

see them. He reluctantly agreed, but it was enough to distract him and I ended

up going to work and now I am home and he said that the rest of his day was

good. He even produced a new CD of his dance music.

>

> Any ideas?

>

> Chris.

May 25, 2004

In my experience, you should only get a puppy if you want to do all the

work yourself and you really want the dog yourself. This is not because

of not wanting to give it to a child, but because you can't count on the

children taking any kind of responsibility for it. A dog needs very

consistent boundaries and rules, and if your bp son doesn't enforce

them, the dog will not be house trained, etc., which can be very

challenging. Unless you are a stay at home parent, and can supervise the

training 24-7, I would not recommend that!

I say this because we did have a dog, and our daughter had very little

involvement in training and doing the work with him, yet she claimed it

as her dog. However, the dog really responded to me because I was

consistent. He worked well with me on walks, and was out of control for

her. I gave him baths, fed him, walked him, picked up the poop, took him

to the vet, etc. This gave her another thing to be jealous of: " her " dog

was more attached to me than to her...

I'd say you are looking for another battleground if you get a pup...

Helen

Re: Countering Negative Dialogues

Hi Chris

Perhaps you may like to get him one of the puppies. Could be that these

darling animals may help to 'soften' the anger BP's feel inside. Dont

know really - just a thought.

Cheers

Kate

wrote:

> Does anyone have any " pointers " on how to handle what I call " negative

dialogues "

>

> Today I took my 26yo BP son to see his psychologist and on the way

home he started one of his " negative dialogues " :

>

> " I am a waste of space " ; " I don't why all you people want to keep me

alive " ; " what have I really contributed to in the last 10 years, I might

as well notbe here " ; " I loathe myself " ; " I hate myself " ; etc, etc. I

can never find the right words to counter these statements, so mostly I

sit there and say nothing or say " I don't know " - and it is very

frustrating!

>

> These get worse and worse. In my inadequate way I try hard to

" counter " and " challenge " them by pointing out positive aspects of his

life and try to get him to focus on the future and show him how well he

has been doing recently, even if the steps are small ones. But these

don't work well.

>

> These negative dialogues can get worse and worse and eventually lead

to a rage outburst.

>

> Today however, when we got home and in the door I just said to him -

OK - lets go around and see your friend - his dog has had new pups and

we should go and see them. He reluctantly agreed, but it was enough to

distract him and I ended up going to work and now I am home and he said

that the rest of his day was good. He even produced a new CD of his

dance music.

>

> Any ideas?

>

> Chris.

>

May 25, 2004

I agree totally.

May 25, 2004

Hi - gosh - I know it's so hard to do, but what Edith wrote is right

on re: not engaging. First reaction (for me) has been always to counter

whatever negative with something positive and maybe like what you've

experienced, didn't lead to a good outcome. My daughter C would eventually

just blow. And BIG - either to the point of having to pull over the car if

we were driving, to me going to another room to try to regain my hearing

from the screaming. Don't give a specific time limit tho - is that a

mistake?

Not engaging if possible seems to settle her down, but zaps me of energy.

It's definitely a 'learned' practice, and I'm definitely STILL learning.

C is now off all her meds and is also blowing off her t appts. I'm still

waiting for that other 'shoe' but so far things have been on a pretty even

level. A few mini-rages (don't know how to explain the episodes) but in all

doing ok. She's active within the family, hasn't gone into hibernation

(historical), and isn't disappearing in the middle of the night for days on

end. Honestly, don't know how long she can keep it up, can see it in her

that she's really trying, but also see the forewarnings Fingers crossed

that she'll go back to her t.

take care everyone - k