Re: AA confronts 13th-stepping

July 5, 2000

You know I believe this is the first time I have ever noted an addiction

worker refer to recovering alcoholics as clever. Mark of extreme

desperation if you ask me.

On the one hand they claim autonomy for the individual groups and in the

next sentence they claim to have guidelines which govern behavior of

sponsor, help line etc.

AA confronts 13th-stepping

Greetings y'all,

I thought you might find the following of interest. It's from

today's " Guardian. " The most interesting thing about it is, from

my perspective, that AA--as with the Catholic Church and

pedophile priests--has admitted the problem (and then only

internally) as a result of outside (in this case police)

investigations, not from any sense of responsibility. What do

you want to bet that if there had been no police investigations

this memo would never have been written?

Here's the article:

Drink advice service confronts sex abuse

Gerard Seenan

Guardian (London) Wednesday July 5, 2000

Vulnerable alcoholics seeking help for their addiction are being

subjected to sexual and other abuse at the hands of long-serving

volunteers

from the world's largest alcohol support group.

An internal memorandum circulated to every Alcoholics Anonymous

group in

the country reveals that volunteer members are increasingly being

investigated by police forces examining allegations of sexual abuse.

It is impossible to quantify the allegations since AA is committed

to

anonymity and will not be drawn on any

aspect of its work. But the document makes it clear the group's general

service board has known of the problem for some time and feels it must

be

tackled at a national level.

According to the memo, leaked to the Glasgow-based Herald newspaper,

within AA " there is a small minority of men and women who operate with

sick

but hidden agendas, and, no matter what they may say, they seek

self-gratification often at the expense of other members or potential

members " .

Public exposure of the memo is embarrassing to AA, but the document

itself was being interpreted yesterday as an attempt by the group to

confront the ills which have long dogged other voluntary organisations.

A senior alcohol addiction worker said: " It came as a bit of a shock

to

me and I have never picked up on these allegations before. AA [is] in a

difficult position: we all put checks and balances in place, but it is

very

difficult to protect people entirely from abuse of position because the

people involved are invariably clever. "

It is understood the chair of AA's York-based general services board

drafted the memo after being made aware of the rising number of police

investigations. It was issued as a consultation document to autonomous

groups across the country and the board is hoping to find new ways of

framing guidance to prevent further abuse.

Abusers within the organisation are said to have exploited their

positions as " sponsors " , taking advantage of the vulnerable when they

are at

their lowest ebb. Contact is usually made through telephone helplines

and

then continued in the home.

AA has guidelines governing who is eligible to become a sponsor or

answer helplines

and make home visits. But the memo reveals these have been broken, with

some taking on the role with neither the appropriate experience nor

duration

of sobriety. The document says: " There appears to be a growing number of

cases around the country of police (and other agency involvement) in

allegations of unlawful sexual conduct by AA members. "

It warns that the organisation has the " potential to become a

breeding

ground for predatory behaviour " .

Although AA holds its creed of anonymity sacrosanct, there is

admission

of a general acknowledgement of abuse within AA, and that the

organisation

will be unable to duck exposure of such abuse. The organisation says it

will

not protect members from the law.

A spokeswoman for AA yesterday confirmed the leaked document was

genuine, but refused to comment further.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

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July 5, 2000

> You know I believe this is the first time I have ever noted an addiction

worker refer to recovering alcoholics as clever. Mark of extreme

desperation if you ask me.

This reminds me so much of what happened in the tobacco industry, the leaked

memo that indicates knowledge of abuse but no action taken to address the

problem--rather action taken to cover up the problem. The counselor who is

quoted as saying he or she had no knowledge of predatory behavior strikes me

as either incredibly naive, or having a " boys will be boys " attitude toward

sexual abuse. Or, perhaps more accurately, that counselor believes that

people who drink and use drugs are insane, that their self report cannot be

trusted. That's how they treated me.

> On the one hand they claim autonomy for the individual groups and in the

next sentence they claim to have guidelines which govern behavior of

sponsor, help line etc.

AA is an organization that helps vulnerable people; vulnerable people

attract predators. People who want to function in a position of power

(sponsor, counselor) need to let go of their precious anonymity. They need

to run a criminal background check, bottom line.

I am as critical as the next person of how the US is run, but I have faith

that the American people will not simply assume the attitude that vulnerable

people need to accept rape and suicide as part of the recovery process. If

it hasn't already, it will happen to a wealthy powerful person. Probably

already has. They have the resources to get treatment options that are

unavailable to middle class and poor people. Making these same options

available to " the masses " is the next step.

Judith, really trying to stay off my soapbox (really!)

> AA confronts 13th-stepping

>

> Greetings y'all,

> I thought you might find the following of interest. It's from

> today's " Guardian. " The most interesting thing about it is, from

> my perspective, that AA--as with the Catholic Church and

> pedophile priests--has admitted the problem (and then only

> internally) as a result of outside (in this case police)

> investigations, not from any sense of responsibility. What do

> you want to bet that if there had been no police investigations

> this memo would never have been written?

>

> Here's the article:

>

> Drink advice service confronts sex abuse

> Gerard Seenan

>

> Guardian (London) Wednesday July 5, 2000

>

> Vulnerable alcoholics seeking help for their addiction are being

> subjected to sexual and other abuse at the hands of long-serving

> volunteers

> from the world's largest alcohol support group.

> An internal memorandum circulated to every Alcoholics Anonymous

> group in

> the country reveals that volunteer members are increasingly being

> investigated by police forces examining allegations of sexual abuse.

> It is impossible to quantify the allegations since AA is committed

> to

> anonymity and will not be drawn on any

> aspect of its work. But the document makes it clear the group's general

> service board has known of the problem for some time and feels it must

> be

> tackled at a national level.

> According to the memo, leaked to the Glasgow-based Herald newspaper,

>

> within AA " there is a small minority of men and women who operate with

> sick

> but hidden agendas, and, no matter what they may say, they seek

> self-gratification often at the expense of other members or potential

> members " .

> Public exposure of the memo is embarrassing to AA, but the document

> itself was being interpreted yesterday as an attempt by the group to

> confront the ills which have long dogged other voluntary organisations.

> A senior alcohol addiction worker said: " It came as a bit of a shock

> to

> me and I have never picked up on these allegations before. AA [is] in a

> difficult position: we all put checks and balances in place, but it is

> very

> difficult to protect people entirely from abuse of position because the

> people involved are invariably clever. "

> It is understood the chair of AA's York-based general services board

>

> drafted the memo after being made aware of the rising number of police

> investigations. It was issued as a consultation document to autonomous

> groups across the country and the board is hoping to find new ways of

> framing guidance to prevent further abuse.

> Abusers within the organisation are said to have exploited their

> positions as " sponsors " , taking advantage of the vulnerable when they

> are at

> their lowest ebb. Contact is usually made through telephone helplines

> and

> then continued in the home.

> AA has guidelines governing who is eligible to become a sponsor or

> answer helplines

> and make home visits. But the memo reveals these have been broken, with

>

> some taking on the role with neither the appropriate experience nor

> duration

> of sobriety. The document says: " There appears to be a growing number of

>

> cases around the country of police (and other agency involvement) in

> allegations of unlawful sexual conduct by AA members. "

> It warns that the organisation has the " potential to become a

> breeding

> ground for predatory behaviour " .

> Although AA holds its creed of anonymity sacrosanct, there is

> admission

> of a general acknowledgement of abuse within AA, and that the

> organisation

> will be unable to duck exposure of such abuse. The organisation says it

> will

> not protect members from the law.

> A spokeswoman for AA yesterday confirmed the leaked document was

> genuine, but refused to comment further.

>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

> Need a credit card?

> Instant Approval and 0% intro APR with Aria!

> http://click./1/6034/2/_/4324/_/962805022/

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

>

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July 5, 2000

Judith

-- but you are an inspiring soap-boxer . . . I look forward to your next

oration -- this one is a real point-maker.

.

>

>Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups

>To: 12-step-freeegroups

>Subject: RE: AA confronts 13th-stepping

>Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2000 09:01:24 -0700 (PDT)

>

> > You know I believe this is the first time I have ever noted an

>addiction

>worker refer to recovering alcoholics as clever. Mark of extreme

>desperation if you ask me.

>

>This reminds me so much of what happened in the tobacco industry, the

>leaked

>memo that indicates knowledge of abuse but no action taken to address the

>problem--rather action taken to cover up the problem. The counselor who is

>quoted as saying he or she had no knowledge of predatory behavior strikes

>me

>as either incredibly naive, or having a " boys will be boys " attitude toward

>sexual abuse. Or, perhaps more accurately, that counselor believes that

>people who drink and use drugs are insane, that their self report cannot be

>trusted. That's how they treated me.

>

> > On the one hand they claim autonomy for the individual groups and in

>the

>next sentence they claim to have guidelines which govern behavior of

>sponsor, help line etc.

>

>AA is an organization that helps vulnerable people; vulnerable people

>attract predators. People who want to function in a position of power

>(sponsor, counselor) need to let go of their precious anonymity. They need

>to run a criminal background check, bottom line.

>

>I am as critical as the next person of how the US is run, but I have faith

>that the American people will not simply assume the attitude that

>vulnerable

>people need to accept rape and suicide as part of the recovery process. If

>it hasn't already, it will happen to a wealthy powerful person. Probably

>already has. They have the resources to get treatment options that are

>unavailable to middle class and poor people. Making these same options

>available to " the masses " is the next step.

>

>Judith, really trying to stay off my soapbox (really!)

>

> > AA confronts 13th-stepping

> >

> > Greetings y'all,

> > I thought you might find the following of interest. It's from

> > today's " Guardian. " The most interesting thing about it is, from

> > my perspective, that AA--as with the Catholic Church and

> > pedophile priests--has admitted the problem (and then only

> > internally) as a result of outside (in this case police)

> > investigations, not from any sense of responsibility. What do

> > you want to bet that if there had been no police investigations

> > this memo would never have been written?

> >

> > Here's the article:

> >

> > Drink advice service confronts sex abuse

> > Gerard Seenan

> >

> > Guardian (London) Wednesday July 5, 2000

> >

> > Vulnerable alcoholics seeking help for their addiction are being

> > subjected to sexual and other abuse at the hands of long-serving

> > volunteers

> > from the world's largest alcohol support group.

> > An internal memorandum circulated to every Alcoholics Anonymous

> > group in

> > the country reveals that volunteer members are increasingly being

> > investigated by police forces examining allegations of sexual abuse.

> > It is impossible to quantify the allegations since AA is

>committed

> > to

> > anonymity and will not be drawn on any

> > aspect of its work. But the document makes it clear the group's general

> > service board has known of the problem for some time and feels it must

> > be

> > tackled at a national level.

> > According to the memo, leaked to the Glasgow-based Herald

>newspaper,

> >

> > within AA " there is a small minority of men and women who operate with

> > sick

> > but hidden agendas, and, no matter what they may say, they seek

> > self-gratification often at the expense of other members or potential

> > members " .

> > Public exposure of the memo is embarrassing to AA, but the document

> > itself was being interpreted yesterday as an attempt by the group to

> > confront the ills which have long dogged other voluntary organisations.

> > A senior alcohol addiction worker said: " It came as a bit of a

>shock

> > to

> > me and I have never picked up on these allegations before. AA [is] in a

> > difficult position: we all put checks and balances in place, but it is

> > very

> > difficult to protect people entirely from abuse of position because the

> > people involved are invariably clever. "

> > It is understood the chair of AA's York-based general services

>board

> >

> > drafted the memo after being made aware of the rising number of police

> > investigations. It was issued as a consultation document to autonomous

> > groups across the country and the board is hoping to find new ways of

> > framing guidance to prevent further abuse.

> > Abusers within the organisation are said to have exploited their

> > positions as " sponsors " , taking advantage of the vulnerable when they

> > are at

> > their lowest ebb. Contact is usually made through telephone helplines

> > and

> > then continued in the home.

> > AA has guidelines governing who is eligible to become a sponsor or

> > answer helplines

> > and make home visits. But the memo reveals these have been broken,

>with

> >

> > some taking on the role with neither the appropriate experience nor

> > duration

> > of sobriety. The document says: " There appears to be a growing number

>of

> >

> > cases around the country of police (and other agency involvement) in

> > allegations of unlawful sexual conduct by AA members. "

> > It warns that the organisation has the " potential to become a

> > breeding

> > ground for predatory behaviour " .

> > Although AA holds its creed of anonymity sacrosanct, there is

> > admission

> > of a general acknowledgement of abuse within AA, and that the

> > organisation

> > will be unable to duck exposure of such abuse. The organisation says it

> > will

> > not protect members from the law.

> > A spokeswoman for AA yesterday confirmed the leaked document was

> > genuine, but refused to comment further.

> >

>------------------------------------------------------------------------

> > Need a credit card?

> > Instant Approval and 0% intro APR with Aria!

> > http://click./1/6034/2/_/4324/_/962805022/

> >

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> >

>

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>http://www.home.com/xinbox/signup.html

>

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July 5, 2000

This has planted a seed in my mind. Can AA sue and be sued? Evidently some

legal entity filed suit in Germany to protect the copyright to the German BB.

So therefore, can they not be named in a civil suit as partially responsible for

sexual abuse? The memo shows that they know about it. Could the next victim

allege that the general service board is taking ineffective steps to solve the

problem and name them in a lawsuit? I wonder how such a suit would fare in a

Scots court. I cannot possibly imagine what an American court would make of it.

As to those guidelines, I have noticed that they vary from group to group and

city to city, as one might expect. And a guy (I'm assuming we're talking about

males here, but I suppose it could be a woman as well) doesn't have to be a

sponsor to be a predator.

---

Kayleigh

Zz

zZ

|\ z _,,,---,,_

/,`.-'`' _ ;-;;,_

|,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-'

'---''(_/--' `-'\_)

>Greetings y'all,

>I thought you might find the following of interest. It's from

>today's " Guardian. " The most interesting thing about it is, from

>my perspective, that AA--as with the Catholic Church and

>pedophile priests--has admitted the problem (and then only

>internally) as a result of outside (in this case police)

>investigations, not from any sense of responsibility. What do

>you want to bet that if there had been no police investigations

>this memo would never have been written?

>

>Here's the article:

>

>Drink advice service confronts sex abuse

> Gerard Seenan

>

>Guardian (London) Wednesday July 5, 2000

>

> Vulnerable alcoholics seeking help for their addiction are being

>subjected to sexual and other abuse at the hands of long-serving

>volunteers

>from the world's largest alcohol support group.

> An internal memorandum circulated to every Alcoholics Anonymous

>group in

>the country reveals that volunteer members are increasingly being

>investigated by police forces examining allegations of sexual abuse.

> It is impossible to quantify the allegations since AA is committed

>to

>anonymity and will not be drawn on any

>aspect of its work. But the document makes it clear the group's general

>service board has known of the problem for some time and feels it must

>be

>tackled at a national level.

> According to the memo, leaked to the Glasgow-based Herald newspaper,

>

>within AA " there is a small minority of men and women who operate with

>sick

>but hidden agendas, and, no matter what they may say, they seek

>self-gratification often at the expense of other members or potential

>members " .

> Public exposure of the memo is embarrassing to AA, but the document

>itself was being interpreted yesterday as an attempt by the group to

>confront the ills which have long dogged other voluntary organisations.

> A senior alcohol addiction worker said: " It came as a bit of a shock

>to

>me and I have never picked up on these allegations before. AA [is] in a

>difficult position: we all put checks and balances in place, but it is

>very

>difficult to protect people entirely from abuse of position because the

>people involved are invariably clever. "

> It is understood the chair of AA's York-based general services board

>

>drafted the memo after being made aware of the rising number of police

>investigations. It was issued as a consultation document to autonomous

>groups across the country and the board is hoping to find new ways of

>framing guidance to prevent further abuse.

> Abusers within the organisation are said to have exploited their

>positions as " sponsors " , taking advantage of the vulnerable when they

>are at

>their lowest ebb. Contact is usually made through telephone helplines

>and

>then continued in the home.

> AA has guidelines governing who is eligible to become a sponsor or

>answer helplines

> and make home visits. But the memo reveals these have been broken, with

>

>some taking on the role with neither the appropriate experience nor

>duration

>of sobriety. The document says: " There appears to be a growing number of

>

>cases around the country of police (and other agency involvement) in

>allegations of unlawful sexual conduct by AA members. "

> It warns that the organisation has the " potential to become a

>breeding

>ground for predatory behaviour " .

> Although AA holds its creed of anonymity sacrosanct, there is

>admission

>of a general acknowledgement of abuse within AA, and that the

>organisation

>will be unable to duck exposure of such abuse. The organisation says it

>will

>not protect members from the law.

> A spokeswoman for AA yesterday confirmed the leaked document was

>genuine, but refused to comment further.

>

>------------------------------------------------------------------------

>Need a credit card?

>Instant Approval and 0% intro APR with Aria!

>http://click./1/6034/2/_/4324/_/962805022/

>------------------------------------------------------------------------

>

--== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==--

Before you buy.

July 5, 2000

It's probably already happened to someone who's wealthy, though I doubt it has

happened or will happen to someone powerful. Powerful people exude confidence,

and that's not a characteristic of the victims of predators.

The most likely defense a predator will put up in such a situation is that the

behavior was consensual, and there are so many borderline situations that the

defense will often prevail because the coercion was mental and emotional.

On the other hand, I know several women who have been scammed out of money and

possessions by drifters who go to meetings to find wealthy, single women.

Hasn't anyone else run into this before? Unfortunately, even if the victim is

willing to make a complaint the guy will have moved on, and no one knows who he

is because he was lying about it in the first place. This is a subject I have

not seen mentioned on lists before, and it's also a crime that these individuals

are able to commit by taking advantage of AA's peculiar structure -- no

accountability.

---

Kayleigh

Zz

zZ

|\ z _,,,---,,_

/,`.-'`' _ ;-;;,_

|,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-'

'---''(_/--' `-'\_)

<snips>

>I am as critical as the next person of how the US is run, but I have faith

>that the American people will not simply assume the attitude that vulnerable

>people need to accept rape and suicide as part of the recovery process. If

>it hasn't already, it will happen to a wealthy powerful person. Probably

>already has. They have the resources to get treatment options that are

>unavailable to middle class and poor people. Making these same options

>available to " the masses " is the next step.

>

>Judith, really trying to stay off my soapbox (really!)

>

>> AA confronts 13th-stepping

>>

>> Greetings y'all,

>> I thought you might find the following of interest. It's from

>> today's " Guardian. " The most interesting thing about it is, from

>> my perspective, that AA--as with the Catholic Church and

>> pedophile priests--has admitted the problem (and then only

>> internally) as a result of outside (in this case police)

>> investigations, not from any sense of responsibility. What do

>> you want to bet that if there had been no police investigations

>> this memo would never have been written?

>>

>> Here's the article:

>>

>> Drink advice service confronts sex abuse

>> Gerard Seenan

>>

>> Guardian (London) Wednesday July 5, 2000

>>

>> Vulnerable alcoholics seeking help for their addiction are being

>> subjected to sexual and other abuse at the hands of long-serving

>> volunteers

>> from the world's largest alcohol support group.

>> An internal memorandum circulated to every Alcoholics Anonymous

>> group in

>> the country reveals that volunteer members are increasingly being

>> investigated by police forces examining allegations of sexual abuse.

>> It is impossible to quantify the allegations since AA is committed

>> to

>> anonymity and will not be drawn on any

>> aspect of its work. But the document makes it clear the group's general

>> service board has known of the problem for some time and feels it must

>> be

>> tackled at a national level.

>> According to the memo, leaked to the Glasgow-based Herald newspaper,

>>

>> within AA " there is a small minority of men and women who operate with

>> sick

>> but hidden agendas, and, no matter what they may say, they seek

>> self-gratification often at the expense of other members or potential

>> members " .

>> Public exposure of the memo is embarrassing to AA, but the document

>> itself was being interpreted yesterday as an attempt by the group to

>> confront the ills which have long dogged other voluntary organisations.

>> A senior alcohol addiction worker said: " It came as a bit of a shock

>> to

>> me and I have never picked up on these allegations before. AA [is] in a

>> difficult position: we all put checks and balances in place, but it is

>> very

>> difficult to protect people entirely from abuse of position because the

>> people involved are invariably clever. "

>> It is understood the chair of AA's York-based general services board

>>

>> drafted the memo after being made aware of the rising number of police

>> investigations. It was issued as a consultation document to autonomous

>> groups across the country and the board is hoping to find new ways of

>> framing guidance to prevent further abuse.

>> Abusers within the organisation are said to have exploited their

>> positions as " sponsors " , taking advantage of the vulnerable when they

>> are at

>> their lowest ebb. Contact is usually made through telephone helplines

>> and

>> then continued in the home.

>> AA has guidelines governing who is eligible to become a sponsor or

>> answer helplines

>> and make home visits. But the memo reveals these have been broken, with

>>

>> some taking on the role with neither the appropriate experience nor

>> duration

>> of sobriety. The document says: " There appears to be a growing number of

>>

>> cases around the country of police (and other agency involvement) in

>> allegations of unlawful sexual conduct by AA members. "

>> It warns that the organisation has the " potential to become a

>> breeding

>> ground for predatory behaviour " .

>> Although AA holds its creed of anonymity sacrosanct, there is

>> admission

>> of a general acknowledgement of abuse within AA, and that the

>> organisation

>> will be unable to duck exposure of such abuse. The organisation says it

>> will

>> not protect members from the law.

>> A spokeswoman for AA yesterday confirmed the leaked document was

>> genuine, but refused to comment further.

>>

>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

>> Need a credit card?

>> Instant Approval and 0% intro APR with Aria!

>> http://click./1/6034/2/_/4324/_/962805022/

>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

>>

>

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Before you buy.

July 5, 2000

> It's probably already happened to someone who's wealthy, though I doubt

it has happened or will happen to someone powerful. Powerful people exude

confidence, and that's not a characteristic of the victims of predators.

true.

> The most likely defense a predator will put up in such a situation is

that the behavior was consensual, and there are so many borderline

situations that the defense will often prevail because the coercion was

mental and emotional.

The U of MN, where I've spent probably 15 years as both student and staff,

defines relationships in terms of power when it comes to harassment/abuse.

Consent is less important than status, or rather consent is mitigated by

status. So there are faculty, staff, students, and I think that is the order

of status. Still I know that most cases of harassment don't end in firing (I

know a couple of professors who have been hound dogs in the past and are

still teaching).

> On the other hand, I know several women who have been scammed out of

money and possessions by drifters who go to meetings to find wealthy, single

women. Hasn't anyone else run into this before? Unfortunately, even if the

victim is willing to make a complaint the guy will have moved on, and no one

knows who he is because he was lying about it in the first place. This is a

subject I have not seen mentioned on lists before, and it's also a crime

that these individuals are able to commit by taking advantage of AA's

peculiar structure -- no accountability.

Truthfully, I don't know about 13th stepping firsthand. I first heard about

it here. It seems to me that if someone is a drifter looking for a victim,

that is a criminal matter; but if someone is well known and has a pattern of

exploiting newcomers, then that is a civil matter for which AA should be

held accountable.

This kind of accountability would go a long way in improving my opinion of

AA.

Judith

_______________________________________________________

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July 5, 2000

Kayleigh,

A predator doesn't have to be a guy to be a nasty piece of work. 13 th

stepping being such a celebreated tradition in stpeNazi Kulchur, I'm sure a

ish court would at least oblige us with a verdict of " not proven " ,

Yrs litigiously,

.

>

>Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups

>To: 12-step-freeegroups

>Subject: Re: AA confronts 13th-stepping

>Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2000 12:03:06 -0700

>

>This has planted a seed in my mind. Can AA sue and be sued? Evidently

>some legal entity filed suit in Germany to protect the copyright to the

>German BB. So therefore, can they not be named in a civil suit as

>partially responsible for sexual abuse? The memo shows that they know

>about it. Could the next victim allege that the general service board is

>taking ineffective steps to solve the problem and name them in a lawsuit?

>I wonder how such a suit would fare in a Scots court. I cannot possibly

>imagine what an American court would make of it.

>

>As to those guidelines, I have noticed that they vary from group to group

>and city to city, as one might expect. And a guy (I'm assuming we're

>talking about males here, but I suppose it could be a woman as well)

>doesn't have to be a sponsor to be a predator.

>---

>Kayleigh

>

> Zz

> zZ

> |\ z _,,,---,,_

> /,`.-'`' _ ;-;;,_

> |,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-'

> '---''(_/--' `-'\_)

>

> >Greetings y'all,

> >I thought you might find the following of interest. It's from

> >today's " Guardian. " The most interesting thing about it is, from

> >my perspective, that AA--as with the Catholic Church and

> >pedophile priests--has admitted the problem (and then only

> >internally) as a result of outside (in this case police)

> >investigations, not from any sense of responsibility. What do

> >you want to bet that if there had been no police investigations

> >this memo would never have been written?

> >

> >Here's the article:

> >

> >Drink advice service confronts sex abuse

> > Gerard Seenan

> >

> >Guardian (London) Wednesday July 5, 2000

> >

> > Vulnerable alcoholics seeking help for their addiction are being

> >subjected to sexual and other abuse at the hands of long-serving

> >volunteers

> >from the world's largest alcohol support group.

> > An internal memorandum circulated to every Alcoholics Anonymous

> >group in

> >the country reveals that volunteer members are increasingly being

> >investigated by police forces examining allegations of sexual abuse.

> > It is impossible to quantify the allegations since AA is committed

> >to

> >anonymity and will not be drawn on any

> >aspect of its work. But the document makes it clear the group's general

> >service board has known of the problem for some time and feels it must

> >be

> >tackled at a national level.

> > According to the memo, leaked to the Glasgow-based Herald newspaper,

> >

> >within AA " there is a small minority of men and women who operate with

> >sick

> >but hidden agendas, and, no matter what they may say, they seek

> >self-gratification often at the expense of other members or potential

> >members " .

> > Public exposure of the memo is embarrassing to AA, but the document

> >itself was being interpreted yesterday as an attempt by the group to

> >confront the ills which have long dogged other voluntary organisations.

> > A senior alcohol addiction worker said: " It came as a bit of a shock

> >to

> >me and I have never picked up on these allegations before. AA [is] in a

> >difficult position: we all put checks and balances in place, but it is

> >very

> >difficult to protect people entirely from abuse of position because the

> >people involved are invariably clever. "

> > It is understood the chair of AA's York-based general services board

> >

> >drafted the memo after being made aware of the rising number of police

> >investigations. It was issued as a consultation document to autonomous

> >groups across the country and the board is hoping to find new ways of

> >framing guidance to prevent further abuse.

> > Abusers within the organisation are said to have exploited their

> >positions as " sponsors " , taking advantage of the vulnerable when they

> >are at

> >their lowest ebb. Contact is usually made through telephone helplines

> >and

> >then continued in the home.

> > AA has guidelines governing who is eligible to become a sponsor or

> >answer helplines

> > and make home visits. But the memo reveals these have been broken, with

> >

> >some taking on the role with neither the appropriate experience nor

> >duration

> >of sobriety. The document says: " There appears to be a growing number of

> >

> >cases around the country of police (and other agency involvement) in

> >allegations of unlawful sexual conduct by AA members. "

> > It warns that the organisation has the " potential to become a

> >breeding

> >ground for predatory behaviour " .

> > Although AA holds its creed of anonymity sacrosanct, there is

> >admission

> >of a general acknowledgement of abuse within AA, and that the

> >organisation

> >will be unable to duck exposure of such abuse. The organisation says it

> >will

> >not protect members from the law.

> > A spokeswoman for AA yesterday confirmed the leaked document was

> >genuine, but refused to comment further.

> >

> >------------------------------------------------------------------------

> >Need a credit card?

> >Instant Approval and 0% intro APR with Aria!

> >http://click./1/6034/2/_/4324/_/962805022/

> >------------------------------------------------------------------------

> >

>

>--== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==--

>Before you buy.

________________________________________________________________________

Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

July 5, 2000

The thing about the power wielded by certain individuals (faculty/student,

priest/penitent, lawyer/client, doctor/patient, etc.) is that there are agencies

that have the power to punish them for sexual transgressions -- the university,

licensing boards, the church -- if a complaint is made. (I am sure there are

cases where in which no complainant comes forward. Maybe they're in sexual

bliss.)

These agencies are free of civil liability because they have made their policies

clear -- these transgressions will not be tolerated. All employers do this now

as well.

As a civil law question, the issue would be first, whether AA does have any

liability; and if so, then whether they have taken sufficient steps to prevent

sexual behavior on the part of sponsors toward sponsees. And the interesting

twist here, I think, is that in this country, the fact that an organization

makes a move toward indicating that certain behavior will not be tolerated, but

that move is not sufficient to prevent the behavior in the future, indicates

that the organization does bear some responsibility. So obviously in this

country, AA would do best to claim ignorance of the whole question.

Actually this brings another issue into my mind -- could treatment centers be on

the hook for this? After all, AA itself does not make any overt claims that it

is the only way to recover. It is really the treatment centers that insist upon

this adamantly. And I'd be willing to bet that a lot more women who have not

been to treatment centers are willing to walk out of a situation where they are

threatened. A woman who has been through treatment will be a lot more

ambivalent, a lot less willing to walk away, if she thinks AA is her only hope.

Yeah, this thought is more fruitful than my previous one.

---

Kayleigh

Zz

zZ

|\ z _,,,---,,_

/,`.-'`' _ ;-;;,_

|,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-'

'---''(_/--' `-'\_)

<snip>

>The U of MN, where I've spent probably 15 years as both student and staff,

>defines relationships in terms of power when it comes to harassment/abuse.

>Consent is less important than status, or rather consent is mitigated by

>status. So there are faculty, staff, students, and I think that is the order

>of status. Still I know that most cases of harassment don't end in firing (I

>know a couple of professors who have been hound dogs in the past and are

>still teaching).

>

<snip>

>

>This kind of accountability would go a long way in improving my opinion of

>AA.

>

>Judith

>

>_______________________________________________________

>Say Bye to Slow Internet!

>http://www.home.com/xinbox/signup.html

>

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>

--== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==--

Before you buy.

July 5, 2000

Joe, see my response to Judith's post in which I talk about how

taking

insufficient steps to prevent a behavior may actually be construed to

be an admission of liability. This is kind of like an employer's

responsibility to protect employees. " They put lights in the parking

lot but they had no security guards, therefore they didn't adequately

protect the employees but they knew of the concern. " Admittedly,

this

is something that courts can hold opposing views about.

However, I know of no legal argument that could impose any legal

responsibility on AA to protect its members. AA goes to great

lengths to deny that there it has any responsibility for the

opinions and views of its members -- that there is any agency

relationship between them. Hell, they don't even know who they

are! That's why I suggested attempting to hold treatment centers

responsible. In my exposure to treatment no one ever told me about

sexual predators, though they were pretty visible when I arrived. I

don't think they are visible to everyone, however. And when you

consider the hypotheses that various people have thrown out, saying

that drug and alcohol abusers were very likely to have been abused as

children or to suffer from some form of PTSD, it becomes very

foreseeable that, as Judith pointed out, AA members are highly likely

to be either victims or victimizers.

> Some questions arise from this that could be asked of AA at world

level,

> most obviously this one: since it is now recognised that AA members

who are

> also sexual predators use AA meetings to find victims in the UK, is

it not

> time for AA to admit the existence of this problem worldwide, and

what

> action do they intend to take to deal with it?

>

> They won't have dealt with this honestly and responsibly until

there

is an

> AA pamphlet on the tables along with all the other pamphlets giving

a full

> description of this problem and how to avoid it. My suggested title

is;

> " Sexual Predators In AA: What Every New Member Should Know " . I

hereby waive

> copyright to that title if AA wants to use it... In fact I'll even

write

> the pamphlet for them for free if they ask me nicely.

>

> Joe B.

>

July 5, 2000

I know, . Either the guys are more obvious (to me anyway) or they are

more numerous. Or they simply have more opportunity.

---

Kayleigh

Zz

zZ

|\ z _,,,---,,_

/,`.-'`' _ ;-;;,_

|,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-'

'---''(_/--' `-'\_)

>Kayleigh,

>A predator doesn't have to be a guy to be a nasty piece of work. 13 th

>stepping being such a celebreated tradition in stpeNazi Kulchur, I'm sure a

>ish court would at least oblige us with a verdict of " not proven " ,

>Yrs litigiously,

>.

>

>>

>>Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups

>>To: 12-step-freeegroups

>>Subject: Re: AA confronts 13th-stepping

>>Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2000 12:03:06 -0700

>>

>>This has planted a seed in my mind. Can AA sue and be sued? Evidently

>>some legal entity filed suit in Germany to protect the copyright to the

>>German BB. So therefore, can they not be named in a civil suit as

>>partially responsible for sexual abuse? The memo shows that they know

>>about it. Could the next victim allege that the general service board is

>>taking ineffective steps to solve the problem and name them in a lawsuit?

>>I wonder how such a suit would fare in a Scots court. I cannot possibly

>>imagine what an American court would make of it.

>>

>>As to those guidelines, I have noticed that they vary from group to group

>>and city to city, as one might expect. And a guy (I'm assuming we're

>>talking about males here, but I suppose it could be a woman as well)

>>doesn't have to be a sponsor to be a predator.

>>---

>>Kayleigh

>>

>> Zz

>> zZ

>> |\ z _,,,---,,_

>> /,`.-'`' _ ;-;;,_

>> |,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-'

>> '---''(_/--' `-'\_)

>>

>> >Greetings y'all,

>> >I thought you might find the following of interest. It's from

>> >today's " Guardian. " The most interesting thing about it is, from

>> >my perspective, that AA--as with the Catholic Church and

>> >pedophile priests--has admitted the problem (and then only

>> >internally) as a result of outside (in this case police)

>> >investigations, not from any sense of responsibility. What do

>> >you want to bet that if there had been no police investigations

>> >this memo would never have been written?

>> >

>> >Here's the article:

>> >

>> >Drink advice service confronts sex abuse

>> > Gerard Seenan

>> >

>> >Guardian (London) Wednesday July 5, 2000

>> >

>> > Vulnerable alcoholics seeking help for their addiction are being

>> >subjected to sexual and other abuse at the hands of long-serving

>> >volunteers

>> >from the world's largest alcohol support group.

>> > An internal memorandum circulated to every Alcoholics Anonymous

>> >group in

>> >the country reveals that volunteer members are increasingly being

>> >investigated by police forces examining allegations of sexual abuse.

>> > It is impossible to quantify the allegations since AA is committed

>> >to

>> >anonymity and will not be drawn on any

>> >aspect of its work. But the document makes it clear the group's general

>> >service board has known of the problem for some time and feels it must

>> >be

>> >tackled at a national level.

>> > According to the memo, leaked to the Glasgow-based Herald newspaper,

>> >

>> >within AA " there is a small minority of men and women who operate with

>> >sick

>> >but hidden agendas, and, no matter what they may say, they seek

>> >self-gratification often at the expense of other members or potential

>> >members " .

>> > Public exposure of the memo is embarrassing to AA, but the document

>> >itself was being interpreted yesterday as an attempt by the group to

>> >confront the ills which have long dogged other voluntary organisations.

>> > A senior alcohol addiction worker said: " It came as a bit of a shock

>> >to

>> >me and I have never picked up on these allegations before. AA [is] in a

>> >difficult position: we all put checks and balances in place, but it is

>> >very

>> >difficult to protect people entirely from abuse of position because the

>> >people involved are invariably clever. "

>> > It is understood the chair of AA's York-based general services board

>> >

>> >drafted the memo after being made aware of the rising number of police

>> >investigations. It was issued as a consultation document to autonomous

>> >groups across the country and the board is hoping to find new ways of

>> >framing guidance to prevent further abuse.

>> > Abusers within the organisation are said to have exploited their

>> >positions as " sponsors " , taking advantage of the vulnerable when they

>> >are at

>> >their lowest ebb. Contact is usually made through telephone helplines

>> >and

>> >then continued in the home.

>> > AA has guidelines governing who is eligible to become a sponsor or

>> >answer helplines

>> > and make home visits. But the memo reveals these have been broken, with

>> >

>> >some taking on the role with neither the appropriate experience nor

>> >duration

>> >of sobriety. The document says: " There appears to be a growing number of

>> >

>> >cases around the country of police (and other agency involvement) in

>> >allegations of unlawful sexual conduct by AA members. "

>> > It warns that the organisation has the " potential to become a

>> >breeding

>> >ground for predatory behaviour " .

>> > Although AA holds its creed of anonymity sacrosanct, there is

>> >admission

>> >of a general acknowledgement of abuse within AA, and that the

>> >organisation

>> >will be unable to duck exposure of such abuse. The organisation says it

>> >will

>> >not protect members from the law.

>> > A spokeswoman for AA yesterday confirmed the leaked document was

>> >genuine, but refused to comment further.

>> >

>> >------------------------------------------------------------------------

>> >Need a credit card?

>> >Instant Approval and 0% intro APR with Aria!

>> >http://click./1/6034/2/_/4324/_/962805022/

>> >------------------------------------------------------------------------

>> >

>>

>>--== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==--

>>Before you buy.

>

>________________________________________________________________________

>Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

>

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Before you buy.

July 5, 2000

Hi Joe, Kayliegh:

Joe go ahead and write the pamphlet and send it to them certified mail. If

they're ever taken to court they can't then deny they didn't have the

knowledge or the means to put an end or at least make an attempt to protect

new members.

Kayleigh.

I've been thinking along these lines for some time. Some of the legal

arguments used against the Metzgar organization should be able to be

modified for and used against AA.

I would think for example that a strong argument could be made that AA's

powerless message could lead to emotional distress and eventual suicide or

perpetual states of depression in many of it's members. Reason enough for a

lawsuit I would think. While it's true that individual groups may be

causing the problems the mindset was developed by the material produced and

distributed by the WSO not unlike the hate material distributed by the

Metzcar's for free caused violent outbreaks of a racial nature.

If I recall correctly (Bjorn IIRC) the Metzcar's went down for a couple

million.