Re: EXECUTION

[Guest guest]

On Wed Jun 28 13:02:47 2000, 12-step-freeegroups wrote:

> Hi all.

>

> I've just read in a Danish paper, that Americans don't know they're the only

> country in the Western world where death penalty is still in use.

> Even China is considering abolishing it.

> And further, years ago about 80% of the American people supported it, and

> now it's about 60%.

> Soon you might be able to join the civilized part of the world. ;-)

>

> But please get rid of step philosophy before you do!

>

> Bjørn

>

> " k. m. " wrote:

>

> > I thought some of you might be interested that the state of Texas

> > is scheduled to execute it's 222nd person since the death penalty was

> > reinstituted. That man is Graham, a black man, sentenced to

> > death

> > in what we can all see is a blantantly biased process. The gun that

> > killed the victim was not Graham's gun, seven witnesses to the event

> > described someone else as being the gunman or did not identify Graham

> > as the gunmen yet were never called by Graham's publically appointed

> > attorney. The only witness who indentifies Graham witnessed the

> > incident from inside her car..across the street; she indentified

> > Graham after she had described the shooter and then was shown only

> > Graham's picture. And of course, there is the police officer who

> > claims that Graham told him, " Next time I won't leave any witnesses. "

> > (Apparently defendants are often making damning statements to police

> > officers. And always out of ear shot of any witnesses. Hmmmm.)

> > Ladies and Gentlemen...your next president. Of course, Clinton

> > flew back to Arkansas during his presendential campaign to preside

> > over the state execution of a mentally retarded man, who after eating

> > his last meal and forgoing the desert, said " I'll finish it when I

> > get

> > back. "

> > kiki

> >

kiki

Please research and find out the facts surrounding this case before you sound

off and display your pius attitude on the net. There wer only three potential

witness's and only one was close enough to ID the Graham. That witness has not

wavered in 19 years of threats nad innuendo from every quarter so I have to

believe that she is telling the truth.

Jerry

[Guest guest]

Jerry -

I agree, if she's this steadfast after 19 years and all this media

attention, I'd say she was sure, and the right man was id'ed and rightly

killed for this vile act.

CH

Re: EXECUTION

On Wed Jun 28 13:02:47 2000, 12-step-freeegroups wrote:

> Hi all.

>

> I've just read in a Danish paper, that Americans don't know they're the

only

> country in the Western world where death penalty is still in use.

> Even China is considering abolishing it.

> And further, years ago about 80% of the American people supported it, and

> now it's about 60%.

> Soon you might be able to join the civilized part of the world. ;-)

>

> But please get rid of step philosophy before you do!

>

> Bjørn

>

> " k. m. " wrote:

>

> > I thought some of you might be interested that the state of Texas

> > is scheduled to execute it's 222nd person since the death penalty was

> > reinstituted. That man is Graham, a black man, sentenced to

> > death

> > in what we can all see is a blantantly biased process. The gun that

> > killed the victim was not Graham's gun, seven witnesses to the event

> > described someone else as being the gunman or did not identify Graham

> > as the gunmen yet were never called by Graham's publically appointed

> > attorney. The only witness who indentifies Graham witnessed the

> > incident from inside her car..across the street; she indentified

> > Graham after she had described the shooter and then was shown only

> > Graham's picture. And of course, there is the police officer who

> > claims that Graham told him, " Next time I won't leave any witnesses. "

> > (Apparently defendants are often making damning statements to police

> > officers. And always out of ear shot of any witnesses. Hmmmm.)

> > Ladies and Gentlemen...your next president. Of course, Clinton

> > flew back to Arkansas during his presendential campaign to preside

> > over the state execution of a mentally retarded man, who after eating

> > his last meal and forgoing the desert, said " I'll finish it when I

> > get

> > back. "

> > kiki

> >

kiki

Please research and find out the facts surrounding this case before you

sound

off and display your pius attitude on the net. There wer only three

potential

witness's and only one was close enough to ID the Graham. That witness has

not

wavered in 19 years of threats nad innuendo from every quarter so I have to

believe that she is telling the truth.

Jerry

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[Guest guest]

LJ -

Maybe the reason we have the highest rate of incarceration is that the

DETERRENCE factor DOES NOT EXIST!!! People know they'll get a slap on the

wrist for shoplifting or car theft, etc. So what's going to stop them?

I'm not touching the lynching subject, that has nothing to do with capital

punishment today, that was racism and I won't discuss that, it was sick,

twisted and evil. Injecting someone with something to make their heart stop

painlessly in no way can be compared to that.

CH

Re: Re: EXECUTION

In a message dated 6/29/00 10:20:41 AM Eastern Daylight Time,

chartman@... writes:

> No mercy for criminals for me. I say just kill em as soon as they're

> convicted of murder, it'd save us all a bunch of time and money. We're

too

> lenient in this country, which is why crime rates are so high. Maybe if

we

> sent a strong enough message some people would get they're acts together

and

> work like the rest of us.

Sad, but this is the typical American viewpoint. LENIENT! The United States

has one of the highest rates of incarceration in the western world. We are

Draconian not lenient!

When one considers that until the 1960s lynching blacks down south was

considered acceptable, your viewpoint is just another point on the same

continuum.

The US view on capital punishment is one of the things about being an

American that shames me.

LJ

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[Guest guest]

Hi

You were lucky - I almost cancelled it as off topic!

P.

> > > > Hi all.

> > > >

> > > > I've just read in a Danish paper, that Americans don't know

> >they're

> > > the only country in the Western world where death penalty is

still

> >in

> > > use. Even China is considering abolishing it. And further,

years

ago

> > > about 80% of the American people supported it, and now it's

about

> > > 60%.

> > >

> > > I'm in defensive mode today, pardner, and all I got to say is:

> > > Minnesota don't have no stinkin' death penalty (hawk, spit).

> > >

> > > > Soon you might be able to join the civilized part of the

world.

> >;-)

> > > > But please get rid of step philosophy before you do!

> > >

> > > I'm-a workin' on it, pilgrim.

> > >

> > > Judith Holliday, with her six shooters a-blazin'

> > >

> > >

> > >

>

>---------------------------------------------------------------------

-

> >--

> > > Savings + service + convenience = beMANY!

> > > http://click./1/4116/2/_/4324/_/962215829/

> > >

>

>---------------------------------------------------------------------

-

> >--

> >

>

>

______________________________________________________________________

__

> Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at

http://www.hotmail.com

[Guest guest]

Hello Carey

I was going to stay silent on this, because this wasnt what the list

is abt, but Ive come in again because it has some relevance to

addiction issues.

First I will note that I dont recall you actually posting anything

that actually is relevant to thius list's purpose - there can hardly

be anything more likely to stir up a flame war than discussing the

death penalty, and hence this makes me wonder whether this might be

just another bit of trolling.

Assuming it isnt, I dont know whaty kind of " analyst " you are, but you

dont sound the psycho-analyst variety, for is you were, you might have

some insight into the psychic defence of projection, where, for

example, aggressive feelings are projected onto someone else

(murderers in this instance) whereupon they can be roundly condemned

and hence denied. Advocating the death penalty is perfect for this

purpose, since it also allows you to express your own murderous wishes

apparently justified in the name of retribution.

After what Bjorn wrote, do you REALLY think America's crime problems

are caused by too lenient a judicial system? It is the only Western

antion with the death penalty and has the worst murder record of all

of them. Apparently also those States with the death penalty have

higher murder rates than those that dont, and I *dont* believe that

this is in response to these crimes (and even if were, it has clearly

failed ) but both the murder rate and the death penalty are

expressions of a generally more violent community than exists in those

States without it.

It is this point that the link with the purpose of this list comes in.

America also has among the harshest drug laws, and also among the

worst drug problem - and the more fierce the " War on Drugs " becomes,

the worse the problem gets. It rather suggests that, like XA, the War

on Drugs may actually be exacerbating the problem it is supposed to

fight.

America is also notorious for its serial killers, death penalty

regardless. Serial killers occur elsewhere, but one wonders, if, like

the drug problem, the political, cultural and economic dominance of

America is resulting in the spreading of its scourges and failed

remedies the world over.

Pete

> > > Hi all.

> > >

> > > I've just read in a Danish paper, that Americans don't know

> they're

> > the only country in the Western world where death penalty is still

> in

> > use. Even China is considering abolishing it. And further, years

ago

> > about 80% of the American people supported it, and now it's about

> > 60%.

> >

> > I'm in defensive mode today, pardner, and all I got to say is:

> > Minnesota don't have no stinkin' death penalty (hawk, spit).

> >

> > > Soon you might be able to join the civilized part of the world.

> ;-)

> > > But please get rid of step philosophy before you do!

> >

> > I'm-a workin' on it, pilgrim.

> >

> > Judith Holliday, with her six shooters a-blazin'

> >

> >

> >

>

----------------------------------------------------------------------

> --

> > Savings + service + convenience = beMANY!

> > http://click./1/4116/2/_/4324/_/962215829/

> >

>

----------------------------------------------------------------------

> --

>

>

>

----------------------------------------------------------------------

--

> Let Internet Call Manager notify you of phone calls while you're

surf!

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> voicemail. And only $5 per month. Start your FREE trial today!

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>

----------------------------------------------------------------------

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[Guest guest]

Ppl have changed their mind abt AA after longer periods Carey. We've

seen a couple here. Now, if a person has fingered someone for say, 5

years of them on death row, do you really think theyre going to say

" Sorry - I got it wrong " with a lot of ease? After a year or so the

length of time is irrelevant, not least because memeories are not

recorded they are reconstructed, and after seeing his pohoto and

identifying him, when thinking back she will always see his face.

P.

> >

> > > I thought some of you might be interested that the state of

Texas

> > > is scheduled to execute it's 222nd person since the death

penalty was

> > > reinstituted. That man is Graham, a black man, sentenced to

> > > death

> > > in what we can all see is a blantantly biased process. The gun

that

> > > killed the victim was not Graham's gun, seven witnesses to the

event

> > > described someone else as being the gunman or did not identify

Graham

> > > as the gunmen yet were never called by Graham's publically

appointed

> > > attorney. The only witness who indentifies Graham witnessed the

> > > incident from inside her car..across the street; she indentified

> > > Graham after she had described the shooter and then was shown

only

> > > Graham's picture. And of course, there is the police officer who

> > > claims that Graham told him, " Next time I won't leave any

witnesses. "

> > > (Apparently defendants are often making damning statements to

police

> > > officers. And always out of ear shot of any witnesses. Hmmmm.)

> > > Ladies and Gentlemen...your next president. Of course,

Clinton

> > > flew back to Arkansas during his presendential campaign to

preside

> > > over the state execution of a mentally retarded man, who after

eating

> > > his last meal and forgoing the desert, said " I'll finish it

when

I

> > > get

> > > back. "

> > > kiki

> > >

>

>

> kiki

>

> Please research and find out the facts surrounding this case before

you

> sound

> off and display your pius attitude on the net. There wer only three

> potential

> witness's and only one was close enough to ID the Graham. That

witness has

> not

> wavered in 19 years of threats nad innuendo from every quarter so I

have to

> believe that she is telling the truth.

>

> Jerry

>

>

----------------------------------------------------------------------

--

> Think You're A Geek?

> Find Out Today!

> http://click./1/6084/2/_/4324/_/962288574/

>

----------------------------------------------------------------------

--

[Guest guest]

I'm an investment analyst

Re: EXECUTION

Hello Carey

I was going to stay silent on this, because this wasnt what the list

is abt, but Ive come in again because it has some relevance to

addiction issues.

First I will note that I dont recall you actually posting anything

that actually is relevant to thius list's purpose - there can hardly

be anything more likely to stir up a flame war than discussing the

death penalty, and hence this makes me wonder whether this might be

just another bit of trolling.

Assuming it isnt, I dont know whaty kind of " analyst " you are, but you

dont sound the psycho-analyst variety, for is you were, you might have

some insight into the psychic defence of projection, where, for

example, aggressive feelings are projected onto someone else

(murderers in this instance) whereupon they can be roundly condemned

and hence denied. Advocating the death penalty is perfect for this

purpose, since it also allows you to express your own murderous wishes

apparently justified in the name of retribution.

After what Bjorn wrote, do you REALLY think America's crime problems

are caused by too lenient a judicial system? It is the only Western

antion with the death penalty and has the worst murder record of all

of them. Apparently also those States with the death penalty have

higher murder rates than those that dont, and I *dont* believe that

this is in response to these crimes (and even if were, it has clearly

failed ) but both the murder rate and the death penalty are

expressions of a generally more violent community than exists in those

States without it.

It is this point that the link with the purpose of this list comes in.

America also has among the harshest drug laws, and also among the

worst drug problem - and the more fierce the " War on Drugs " becomes,

the worse the problem gets. It rather suggests that, like XA, the War

on Drugs may actually be exacerbating the problem it is supposed to

fight.

America is also notorious for its serial killers, death penalty

regardless. Serial killers occur elsewhere, but one wonders, if, like

the drug problem, the political, cultural and economic dominance of

America is resulting in the spreading of its scourges and failed

remedies the world over.

Pete

> > > Hi all.

> > >

> > > I've just read in a Danish paper, that Americans don't know

> they're

> > the only country in the Western world where death penalty is still

> in

> > use. Even China is considering abolishing it. And further, years

ago

> > about 80% of the American people supported it, and now it's about

> > 60%.

> >

> > I'm in defensive mode today, pardner, and all I got to say is:

> > Minnesota don't have no stinkin' death penalty (hawk, spit).

> >

> > > Soon you might be able to join the civilized part of the world.

> ;-)

> > > But please get rid of step philosophy before you do!

> >

> > I'm-a workin' on it, pilgrim.

> >

> > Judith Holliday, with her six shooters a-blazin'

> >

> >

> >

>

----------------------------------------------------------------------

> --

> > Savings + service + convenience = beMANY!

> > http://click./1/4116/2/_/4324/_/962215829/

> >

>

----------------------------------------------------------------------

> --

>

>

>

----------------------------------------------------------------------

--

> Let Internet Call Manager notify you of phone calls while you're

surf!

> Never feel rushed to get off-line again. Includes Caller ID and Web

> voicemail. And only $5 per month. Start your FREE trial today!

> http://click./1/6080/2/_/4324/_/962234307/

>

----------------------------------------------------------------------

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[Guest guest]

Everyone's entitled to their opinion. Why don't we drop it?

Re: EXECUTION

Ppl have changed their mind abt AA after longer periods Carey. We've

seen a couple here. Now, if a person has fingered someone for say, 5

years of them on death row, do you really think theyre going to say

" Sorry - I got it wrong " with a lot of ease? After a year or so the

length of time is irrelevant, not least because memeories are not

recorded they are reconstructed, and after seeing his pohoto and

identifying him, when thinking back she will always see his face.

P.

> >

> > > I thought some of you might be interested that the state of

Texas

> > > is scheduled to execute it's 222nd person since the death

penalty was

> > > reinstituted. That man is Graham, a black man, sentenced to

> > > death

> > > in what we can all see is a blantantly biased process. The gun

that

> > > killed the victim was not Graham's gun, seven witnesses to the

event

> > > described someone else as being the gunman or did not identify

Graham

> > > as the gunmen yet were never called by Graham's publically

appointed

> > > attorney. The only witness who indentifies Graham witnessed the

> > > incident from inside her car..across the street; she indentified

> > > Graham after she had described the shooter and then was shown

only

> > > Graham's picture. And of course, there is the police officer who

> > > claims that Graham told him, " Next time I won't leave any

witnesses. "

> > > (Apparently defendants are often making damning statements to

police

> > > officers. And always out of ear shot of any witnesses. Hmmmm.)

> > > Ladies and Gentlemen...your next president. Of course,

Clinton

> > > flew back to Arkansas during his presendential campaign to

preside

> > > over the state execution of a mentally retarded man, who after

eating

> > > his last meal and forgoing the desert, said " I'll finish it

when

I

> > > get

> > > back. "

> > > kiki

> > >

>

>

> kiki

>

> Please research and find out the facts surrounding this case before

you

> sound

> off and display your pius attitude on the net. There wer only three

> potential

> witness's and only one was close enough to ID the Graham. That

witness has

> not

> wavered in 19 years of threats nad innuendo from every quarter so I

have to

> believe that she is telling the truth.

>

> Jerry

>

>

----------------------------------------------------------------------

--

> Think You're A Geek?

> Find Out Today!

> http://click./1/6084/2/_/4324/_/962288574/

>

----------------------------------------------------------------------

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[Guest guest]

> I'm an investment analyst

Well, in which case I suggest that you acknowledge that even in

America ppl will not tolerate immediate execution without an

exhaustive appeals process, and hence from a simple financial motive,

it makes more sense not to have a death penalty.

P.

[Guest guest]

Hi Joe:

Recently, I traveled to London and the UK on a bicycle trek. I rode my bike from York to Liverpool and then south through Wales to Cardiff where my grandmother was born. The trip went very well except for the last couple of days in London where my bike was stolen. Fortunately, the bike was insured and now I am dealing with my insurance company. Here lies the problem. My insurance company requires a copy of the police report and, as anticipated, the London Police are slow to produce the report. I have e-mailed Scotland Yard and they have not mailed me back. Its been about two weeks now. I am hoping that since you are located in the UK, you would be so kind to assist me me in securing the report or tell me who to contact via e-mail or otherwise so that I can proceed with my insurance claim. The report number and officer numbers are below:

report no: 560 9864/00B

officer no: PC 152BMAGBE

The bike was stolen from the Saint Simeon Hotel on Harrington Gardens Road, London

Thanks allot Joe,

,

jkling@...

RE: Re: EXECUTION

> At 09:56 29/06/00 -0400, you wrote:> >Sorry -> >> >No mercy for criminals for me. I say just kill em as soon as they're> >convicted of murder, it'd save us all a bunch of time and money. We're too> >lenient in this country, which is why crime rates are so high. Maybe if we> >sent a strong enough message some people would get they're acts together and> >work like the rest of us.> >> >CH> > > Hmmm. That death penalty in the US seems to be very effective at reducing > crime, doesn't it. Compared to say the UK, where we don't have one, the US > is really civilised and safe and there are relatively few murders. Oh no, > sorry, I got that the wrong way round...> > Joe B.> > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------> @Backup- Protect and Access your data any time, any where on the net.> Try @Backup FREE and receive 300 points from mypoints.com Install now:> http://click./1/5666/2/_/4324/_/962299695/> ------------------------------------------------------------------------> > >

[Guest guest]

Greetings from, Cardiff, . Which part of town is your grandmother

from? It's a grand place for a bicycle -- I've been out on mine tonight,

yours,

.

>

>Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups

>To: <12-step-freeegroups>

>Subject: Re: Re: EXECUTION

>Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 13:50:22 -0600

>

>Hi Joe:

>

>Recently, I traveled to London and the UK on a bicycle trek. I rode my

>bike from York to Liverpool and then south through Wales to Cardiff where

>my grandmother was born. The trip went very well except for the last

>couple of days in London where my bike was stolen. Fortunately, the bike

>was insured and now I am dealing with my insurance company. Here lies the

>problem. My insurance company requires a copy of the police report and, as

>anticipated, the London Police are slow to produce the report. I have

>e-mailed Scotland Yard and they have not mailed me back. Its been about

>two weeks now. I am hoping that since you are located in the UK, you would

>be so kind to assist me me in securing the report or tell me who to contact

>via e-mail or otherwise so that I can proceed with my insurance claim. The

>report number and officer numbers are below:

>

>report no: 560 9864/00B

>

>officer no: PC 152BMAGBE

>

>The bike was stolen from the Saint Simeon Hotel on Harrington Gardens Road,

> London

>

>Thanks allot Joe,

>

>,

>

>jkling@...

> RE: Re: EXECUTION

>

>

> > At 09:56 29/06/00 -0400, you wrote:

> > >Sorry -

> > >

> > >No mercy for criminals for me. I say just kill em as soon as they're

> > >convicted of murder, it'd save us all a bunch of time and money. We're

>too

> > >lenient in this country, which is why crime rates are so high. Maybe

>if we

> > >sent a strong enough message some people would get they're acts

>together and

> > >work like the rest of us.

> > >

> > >CH

> >

> >

> > Hmmm. That death penalty in the US seems to be very effective at

>reducing

> > crime, doesn't it. Compared to say the UK, where we don't have one, the

>US

> > is really civilised and safe and there are relatively few murders. Oh

>no,

> > sorry, I got that the wrong way round...

> >

> > Joe B.

> >

> >

> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------

> > @Backup- Protect and Access your data any time, any where on the net.

> > Try @Backup FREE and receive 300 points from mypoints.com Install now:

> > http://click./1/5666/2/_/4324/_/962299695/

> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------

> >

> >

> >

________________________________________________________________________

Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

[Guest guest]

:

She was from Cardiff and that is all that I know, for now. I wish there was

some way that I could find out more about her as she was very kind and I

remember her with fondness. Her maiden name was Winifred and she

married a German called Vant Pitzner during or after WWI. He was a navy

man. Alas, I did not have time to visit long in Cardiff. I stayed at the

Cardiff Hotel. I particularly enjoyed the sea port atmosphere among other

geography. I had to cross over the old bridge to Bristol and I was

surprised to find that it took me so long! Lovely city!! I hope to visit

again soon.

Thanks for the mail !

RE: Re: EXECUTION

> >

> >

> > > At 09:56 29/06/00 -0400, you wrote:

> > > >Sorry -

> > > >

> > > >No mercy for criminals for me. I say just kill em as soon as they're

> > > >convicted of murder, it'd save us all a bunch of time and money.

We're

> >too

> > > >lenient in this country, which is why crime rates are so high. Maybe

> >if we

> > > >sent a strong enough message some people would get they're acts

> >together and

> > > >work like the rest of us.

> > > >

> > > >CH

> > >

> > >

> > > Hmmm. That death penalty in the US seems to be very effective at

> >reducing

> > > crime, doesn't it. Compared to say the UK, where we don't have one,

the

> >US

> > > is really civilised and safe and there are relatively few murders. Oh

> >no,

> > > sorry, I got that the wrong way round...

> > >

> > > Joe B.

> > >

> > >

> >

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

> > > @Backup- Protect and Access your data any time, any where on the net.

> > > Try @Backup FREE and receive 300 points from mypoints.com Install now:

> > > http://click./1/5666/2/_/4324/_/962299695/

> >

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

> > >

> > >

> > >

>

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>

[Guest guest]

At 09:56 29/06/00 -0400, you wrote:

>Sorry -

>

>No mercy for criminals for me. I say just kill em as soon as they're

>convicted of murder, it'd save us all a bunch of time and money. We're too

>lenient in this country, which is why crime rates are so high. Maybe if we

>sent a strong enough message some people would get they're acts together and

>work like the rest of us.

>

>CH

Hmmm. That death penalty in the US seems to be very effective at reducing

crime, doesn't it. Compared to say the UK, where we don't have one, the US

is really civilised and safe and there are relatively few murders. Oh no,

sorry, I got that the wrong way round...

Joe B.

[Guest guest]

Either that or faced with the prospect of death for just killing someone and

you looking on as the only witness the odds are you're dead. Less leniency

leads to more desperation and more violent offences to begin with. Don't

believe me? Look at the OJ Simpson case. Speaking of that case how about

the phrase " all the justice money can buy " . If he had had to rely on a

public defender I don't think anyone believes he would be a free man right

now. More frequently the opposite is true where innocent people are

convicted unjustly due to lousy defense counsel. Hey they can only handle so

many cases at once without something falling through the cracks.

When it comes to drugs mandatory sentencing just ensures most people buy in

smaller quantities thus ensuring they pay more which makes it more

profitable to deal which ensure there will be no shortage of dealers. Those

less lenient laws help ensure profit margins keep the source from drying up.

More lenient sentencing might ensure more drug abusers get real treatment

vice incarceration and XA. Legalizing it would probably do away with most

of the drug related violence over night. Since most of the violent crime in

this country is drug related......

Drunk driving laws were never intended to net husbands and wives driving

home from a restaurant after having two glasses of wine with their meal.

Yet too often these are the people caught in that less leniency mindset.

We've got too many laws for the land of the free and they're too often

applied about as unfairly and arbitrarily as is possible.

I've gotten preachy again and I don't' think it's going to make any

difference so this is the last one from me on this subject.

Re: EXECUTION

I dont know abt " suddenly " Carey, I've always opposed it.

Would you endorse the death penalty just for wounding someone too? I

agree that maiming a person is a horrendous crime that should merit a

long prison sentence, but not the death penalty. In the present

instance, many ppl are objecting that justicw was not done and he may

be innocent, but objection to the death penalty goes beyond this.

ever heard of " Justice Tempered by Mercy " ? Imo when an authority,

however benevolent, inflicts a punishment on an individual, it must do

so with a moral supremacy that requires it to respond more mercifully

than the offender, for if it fails to do so, then it loses imo the

moral superiority that gives it the right to punish. hence life no

parole in some cases, but not the death penalty.

as for " tax dollars " , well rather than years on death row, the most

economical method would be to simply have a state tax on murder and

otherwise let them go free. How d'ya feel abt that?

Prisoners can work, and thought I doubt many can pay for their

imprisonment, nevertheless we are talking abt human beings whose

value is above pieces of silver, however inhumanly they may have

behaved.

----------------

[Guest guest]

Try to let me know if you're in town. You'd be welcome to stop over with me

as things stand,

.

>

>Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups

>To: <12-step-freeegroups>

>Subject: Re: Re: EXECUTION

>Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 18:38:16 -0600

>

>:

>

>She was from Cardiff and that is all that I know, for now. I wish there

>was

>some way that I could find out more about her as she was very kind and I

>remember her with fondness. Her maiden name was Winifred and she

>married a German called Vant Pitzner during or after WWI. He was a navy

>man. Alas, I did not have time to visit long in Cardiff. I stayed at the

>Cardiff Hotel. I particularly enjoyed the sea port atmosphere among other

>geography. I had to cross over the old bridge to Bristol and I was

>surprised to find that it took me so long! Lovely city!! I hope to visit

>again soon.

>Thanks for the mail !

>

>

> RE: Re: EXECUTION

> > >

> > >

> > > > At 09:56 29/06/00 -0400, you wrote:

> > > > >Sorry -

> > > > >

> > > > >No mercy for criminals for me. I say just kill em as soon as

>they're

> > > > >convicted of murder, it'd save us all a bunch of time and money.

>We're

> > >too

> > > > >lenient in this country, which is why crime rates are so high.

>Maybe

> > >if we

> > > > >sent a strong enough message some people would get they're acts

> > >together and

> > > > >work like the rest of us.

> > > > >

> > > > >CH

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Hmmm. That death penalty in the US seems to be very effective at

> > >reducing

> > > > crime, doesn't it. Compared to say the UK, where we don't have one,

>the

> > >US

> > > > is really civilised and safe and there are relatively few murders.

>Oh

> > >no,

> > > > sorry, I got that the wrong way round...

> > > >

> > > > Joe B.

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------

> > > > @Backup- Protect and Access your data any time, any where on the

>net.

> > > > Try @Backup FREE and receive 300 points from mypoints.com Install

>now:

> > > > http://click./1/5666/2/_/4324/_/962299695/

> > >

> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> >

> > ________________________________________________________________________

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> >

> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------

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> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------

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> >

> >

>

________________________________________________________________________

Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

[Guest guest]

Mr. Hartman:

I wonder if there is any relationship between our capitalistic culture and

the incidence of capital murder. Seems to me, a particular culture can

" breed " and " groom " murderers better than others unless, of course, we are

all well educated with the " proper " moral constitution. What do you think

Carey?

Re: EXECUTION

I dont know abt " suddenly " Carey, I've always opposed it.

Would you endorse the death penalty just for wounding someone too? I

agree that maiming a person is a horrendous crime that should merit a

long prison sentence, but not the death penalty. In the present

instance, many ppl are objecting that justicw was not done and he may

be innocent, but objection to the death penalty goes beyond this.

ever heard of " Justice Tempered by Mercy " ? Imo when an authority,

however benevolent, inflicts a punishment on an individual, it must do

so with a moral supremacy that requires it to respond more mercifully

than the offender, for if it fails to do so, then it loses imo the

moral superiority that gives it the right to punish. hence life no

parole in some cases, but not the death penalty.

as for " tax dollars " , well rather than years on death row, the most

economical method would be to simply have a state tax on murder and

otherwise let them go free. How d'ya feel abt that?

Prisoners can work, and thought I doubt many can pay for their

imprisonment, nevertheless we are talking abt human beings whose

value is above pieces of silver, however inhumanly they may have

behaved.

> > Hi all.

> >

> > I've just read in a Danish paper, that Americans don't know

they're

> the only country in the Western world where death penalty is still

in

> use. Even China is considering abolishing it. And further, years ago

> about 80% of the American people supported it, and now it's about

> 60%.

>

> I'm in defensive mode today, pardner, and all I got to say is:

> Minnesota don't have no stinkin' death penalty (hawk, spit).

>

> > Soon you might be able to join the civilized part of the world.

;-)

> > But please get rid of step philosophy before you do!

>

> I'm-a workin' on it, pilgrim.

>

> Judith Holliday, with her six shooters a-blazin'

>

>

>

----------------------------------------------------------------------

--

> Savings + service + convenience = beMANY!

> http://click./1/4116/2/_/4324/_/962215829/

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[Guest guest]

Hi ;

I think the US has a disproprotionatly high percentage of Type A

personalities which doesn't help matters. IIRC those are risk takers

daring doers and in general danger seekers. I'd like to make that

more difinitive but as someone reminded me recently my memory ain't

always the best.

> > > Hi all.

> > >

> > > I've just read in a Danish paper, that Americans don't know

> they're

> > the only country in the Western world where death penalty is still

> in

> > use. Even China is considering abolishing it. And further, years

ago

> > about 80% of the American people supported it, and now it's about

> > 60%.

> >

> > I'm in defensive mode today, pardner, and all I got to say is:

> > Minnesota don't have no stinkin' death penalty (hawk, spit).

> >

> > > Soon you might be able to join the civilized part of the world.

> ;-)

> > > But please get rid of step philosophy before you do!

> >

> > I'm-a workin' on it, pilgrim.

> >

> > Judith Holliday, with her six shooters a-blazin'

> >

> >

> >

> --------------------------------------------------------------------

--

> --

> > Savings + service + convenience = beMANY!

> > http://click./1/4116/2/_/4324/_/962215829/

> >

> --------------------------------------------------------------------

--

> --

>

>

> --------------------------------------------------------------------

----

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surf!

> Never feel rushed to get off-line again. Includes Caller ID and Web

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> --------------------------------------------------------------------

----

[Guest guest]

Are you familiar with the most heinous murder I've ever watched in court.

read Nietche, Crime and Punishment and much classic

literature Byron etc, listened to heavy metal, was pagan after being raised

Methodist, got shamanism involved, used LSD to cross the boundaries of his

mind and learned God bred him to kill. It was good to kill. Articulate 20

yr. old (looked like Schafer's murderer) had an inheritance and

drifted into a beach town in 1998 decided that people were offering

themselves up to him. Followed a beautiful nine year old boy into the men's

washroom while his aunt waited outside, slit his throat, stabbed and killed

him in 10 seconds. He described himself as having a normal upbringing,

honors in high school and yet had on remorse. He developed a ravenous

hunger and would do it again. He feels there is no bad or good. All is

good, he said. Court tv website has a big discussion going on about the

insanity plea. www.courttv.com

Happy Canada day Canadians,

Best country in the world!

Biasly,

Carol

At 05:03 PM 7/1/00 -0600, you wrote:

>Mr. Hartman:

>

>I wonder if there is any relationship between our capitalistic culture and

>the incidence of capital murder. Seems to me, a particular culture can

> " breed " and " groom " murderers better than others unless, of course, we are

>all well educated with the " proper " moral constitution. What do you think

>Carey?

>

>

> Re: EXECUTION

>

>

>I dont know abt " suddenly " Carey, I've always opposed it.

>

>Would you endorse the death penalty just for wounding someone too? I

>agree that maiming a person is a horrendous crime that should merit a

>long prison sentence, but not the death penalty. In the present

>instance, many ppl are objecting that justicw was not done and he may

>be innocent, but objection to the death penalty goes beyond this.

>

>ever heard of " Justice Tempered by Mercy " ? Imo when an authority,

>however benevolent, inflicts a punishment on an individual, it must do

>so with a moral supremacy that requires it to respond more mercifully

>than the offender, for if it fails to do so, then it loses imo the

>moral superiority that gives it the right to punish. hence life no

>parole in some cases, but not the death penalty.

>

>as for " tax dollars " , well rather than years on death row, the most

>economical method would be to simply have a state tax on murder and

>otherwise let them go free. How d'ya feel abt that?

>

>Prisoners can work, and thought I doubt many can pay for their

>imprisonment, nevertheless we are talking abt human beings whose

>value is above pieces of silver, however inhumanly they may have

>behaved.

>

>

>

>

>

>> > Hi all.

>> >

>> > I've just read in a Danish paper, that Americans don't know

>they're

>> the only country in the Western world where death penalty is still

>in

>> use. Even China is considering abolishing it. And further, years ago

>> about 80% of the American people supported it, and now it's about

>> 60%.

>>

>> I'm in defensive mode today, pardner, and all I got to say is:

>> Minnesota don't have no stinkin' death penalty (hawk, spit).

>>

>> > Soon you might be able to join the civilized part of the world.

>;-)

>> > But please get rid of step philosophy before you do!

>>

>> I'm-a workin' on it, pilgrim.

>>

>> Judith Holliday, with her six shooters a-blazin'

>>

>>

>>

>----------------------------------------------------------------------

>--

>> Savings + service + convenience = beMANY!

>> http://click./1/4116/2/_/4324/_/962215829/

>>

>----------------------------------------------------------------------

>--

>

>

>------------------------------------------------------------------------

>Let Internet Call Manager notify you of phone calls while you're surf!

>Never feel rushed to get off-line again. Includes Caller ID and Web

>voicemail. And only $5 per month. Start your FREE trial today!

>http://click./1/6080/2/_/4324/_/962234307/

>------------------------------------------------------------------------

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>

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>http://click./1/6034/2/_/4324/_/962288363/

>------------------------------------------------------------------------

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>

>

>------------------------------------------------------------------------

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>http://click./1/6137/2/_/4324/_/962492754/

>------------------------------------------------------------------------

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>

---

Life is a candy store.

Visit: Information on recovery alternatives at

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[Guest guest]

Have you ever had a memory that you knew couldn't be true?

> >

> > > I thought some of you might be interested that the state of

Texas

> > > is scheduled to execute it's 222nd person since the death

penalty was

> > > reinstituted. That man is Graham, a black man, sentenced to

> > > death

> > > in what we can all see is a blantantly biased process. The gun

that

> > > killed the victim was not Graham's gun, seven witnesses to the

event

> > > described someone else as being the gunman or did not identify

Graham

> > > as the gunmen yet were never called by Graham's publically

appointed

> > > attorney. The only witness who indentifies Graham witnessed the

> > > incident from inside her car..across the street; she indentified

> > > Graham after she had described the shooter and then was shown

only

> > > Graham's picture. And of course, there is the police officer who

> > > claims that Graham told him, " Next time I won't leave any

witnesses. "

> > > (Apparently defendants are often making damning statements to

police

> > > officers. And always out of ear shot of any witnesses. Hmmmm.)

> > > Ladies and Gentlemen...your next president. Of course,

Clinton

> > > flew back to Arkansas during his presendential campaign to

preside

> > > over the state execution of a mentally retarded man, who after

eating

> > > his last meal and forgoing the desert, said " I'll finish it

when

I

> > > get

> > > back. "

> > > kiki

> > >

>

>

> kiki

>

> Please research and find out the facts surrounding this case before

you

> sound

> off and display your pius attitude on the net. There wer only three

> potential

> witness's and only one was close enough to ID the Graham. That

witness has

> not

> wavered in 19 years of threats nad innuendo from every quarter so I

have to

> believe that she is telling the truth.

>

> Jerry

>

>

----------------------------------------------------------------------

--

> Think You're A Geek?

> Find Out Today!

> http://click./1/6084/2/_/4324/_/962288574/

>

----------------------------------------------------------------------

--

[Guest guest]

Hi Kayleigh.

I've a very vivid memory of an incidence from my childhood which I

positively know is wrong. A female friend of our home once gave my a little

chocolate car wrapped in silver paper. She told me, that she had to run

after it on the sidewalk, and it almost drove away from her. I remember

this. But I know it's false, of course.

BTW, I know there is some substantial research going on in US regarding the

credibility of witnesses. In this research a trained examiner is able to

create memories that weren't there in the first place. I saw it on TV, but I

don't remember the university or the person.

Well none of us know what really happened, but according to the Danish news,

and I guess it's the same through all Europe, then there are so many points

that would justify a new trial, that this execution is regarded as something

connected with the presidential campaign, and not justice.

Therefore, if Mr. Bush becomes the next president, the papers have already

painted a picture of a man who is willing to kill innocent people to win.

Anyway, when I register the news from the mass media, which is more than

enough for ordinary people, then there comes a rather ugly picture of US,

which I think is unfair. Most people don't dig deeper into your country,

they just shake their heads.

Schoolchildren shooting each other, well, it's just those crazy americans.

Abortion doctors assassinated, well, it's just those crazy americans.

Execution of innocent people, well, it's just those crazy americans.

When the news are filled with incidences like this, it's no wonder we'll get

an eschewed picture.

But of course things happens in Europe too. Some years ago, there was a

rocker war in Scandinavia with a lot of dead persons. They even used

military panzer rockets. The names of the groups were Hells Angels and

Bandidos.

So who were to blame? USA, of course, even though only scandinavians were

involved. It must have been something they have got from US, because we

wouldn't do such things!

See where I'm getting. You'll be blamed no matter what.

An another point. I think every nation in the world have relatives living in

US, and almost every scandinavian family have relatives 'over there'. But

they, of course, are decent people that would never do the things all the

other americans are doing.

Then, and this is the most important point. If US didn't exist Europe would

most likely have been dominated by either Germany or Russia, so we would

have had to invent you anyway. ;-)

Well, I guess there is neither head nor tail in this.

But what I'm getting it is that when I utter some less flattering comments

about what's going on 'over there', it's not anti-americanism. You are just

very important, and therefore we (I) feel justified to have an opinion on

what's going on. Because in a year or two, we'll probably have the same

issue to relate to in our own backyard.

This have sure been the truth when I look at step philosophy, but where do I

seek for help? In US!

Bjørn

P.S.

I don't understand why I'm in such a sympathetic mood today, maybe I should

seek a doctor?

Kayleigh S wrote:

> Have you ever had a memory that you knew couldn't be true?

>

>

> > >

> > > > I thought some of you might be interested that the state of

> Texas

> > > > is scheduled to execute it's 222nd person since the death

> penalty was

> > > > reinstituted. That man is Graham, a black man, sentenced to

> > > > death

> > > > in what we can all see is a blantantly biased process. The gun

> that

> > > > killed the victim was not Graham's gun, seven witnesses to the

> event

> > > > described someone else as being the gunman or did not identify

> Graham

> > > > as the gunmen yet were never called by Graham's publically

> appointed

> > > > attorney. The only witness who indentifies Graham witnessed the

> > > > incident from inside her car..across the street; she indentified

> > > > Graham after she had described the shooter and then was shown

> only

> > > > Graham's picture. And of course, there is the police officer who

> > > > claims that Graham told him, " Next time I won't leave any

> witnesses. "

> > > > (Apparently defendants are often making damning statements to

> police

> > > > officers. And always out of ear shot of any witnesses. Hmmmm.)

> > > > Ladies and Gentlemen...your next president. Of course,

> Clinton

> > > > flew back to Arkansas during his presendential campaign to

> preside

> > > > over the state execution of a mentally retarded man, who after

> eating

> > > > his last meal and forgoing the desert, said " I'll finish it

> when

> I

> > > > get

> > > > back. "

> > > > kiki

> > > >

> >

> >

> > kiki

> >

> > Please research and find out the facts surrounding this case before

> you

> > sound

> > off and display your pius attitude on the net. There wer only three

> > potential

> > witness's and only one was close enough to ID the Graham. That

> witness has

> > not

> > wavered in 19 years of threats nad innuendo from every quarter so I

> have to

> > believe that she is telling the truth.

> >

> > Jerry

> >

> >

> ----------------------------------------------------------------------

> --

> > Think You're A Geek?

> > Find Out Today!

> > http://click./1/6084/2/_/4324/_/962288574/

> >

> ----------------------------------------------------------------------

> --

>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

> Life's too short to send boring email. Let SuperSig come to the rescue.

> http://click./1/6137/2/_/4324/_/962525915/

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Guest guest]

I have a couple memories that I know have to be wrong, because they

combine incidents that I know happened in different years. My mother

has been able to set me straight about several contradictory memories

from my childhood, but when no one else was around, or when the

people

who were around are not available, I simply have to live with the

fact

that my memory is faulty.

The issue with eyewitnesses is not whether they are credible. They

usually believe they are telling the truth, so they are definitely

credible. The trouble is, as I was taught in law school, they are

simply liable to be wrong. There was an experiment done in a

classroom, in which the professor hired four people to rush in during

the class and intimidate the students. The students who later tried

to describe the miscreants generally believed they were taller and

heavier than they actually were. They were way off about their

clothing. Most telling, however, was that though these people were

white, most of the students described them as black. This does not

tell a pretty story about life in the United States.

Now I have not looked this up before posting it, so I am bound to be

wrong about some details, but I think I have conveyed the gist of it.

I am quite sure that I could create a false memory in someone without

much effort, in fact, in a fairly blatant way. People want to be

liked, they want to belong, and so they will often agree with things

when they are doubtful, and once they have firmed that agreement up

in

their minds, they will credibly and vehemently claim that the

remember.

As to the execution, however, I don't regard it as something tied to

the presidential campaign. People are often convicted on

insufficient

evidence in this country, and I don't think this is confined to this

country, either. People prefer to think that they know what happened

and that they know who is responsible, and the sooner the better. I

think this happens almost everywhere. It's just that most places

don't have the death penalty.

I am certainly not proud that schoolchildren shoot each other in this

country, that abortion doctors are assassinated, or that certain

convicted individuals are put to death. What I find devastating

about

this, however, is not the actual events, but the way in which people

attempt to explain them. I don't think any of these things have

simple causes, but people want to make them simple, because it's just

too damned hard to think. Politicians have relatively short terms,

so

they have little initiative to look for longterm solutions. I don't

know why we are so violent. I do believe that we have two warring

traditions, individualism and puritanism, that put us at risk for

various excesses.

I think most Americans who have lived a half century or so find

things

pretty ugly compared to the way things were when they were children.

Your English is so excellent that I assume you are constantly

striving

to improve it. Therefore I will point out that when you say

" eschewed " I am pretty sure you meant " skewed, " and when you say

" incidence " I am pretty sure you meant " incident. " As for your use

of

" head or tail, " I'm at a loss to know what you mean. At first I

thought it might be " hide nor hair, " but that doesn't make sense

either.

Fondly,

Kayleigh

> Hi Kayleigh.

>

> I've a very vivid memory of an incidence from my childhood which I

> positively know is wrong. A female friend of our home once gave my

a

little

> chocolate car wrapped in silver paper. She told me, that she had to

run

> after it on the sidewalk, and it almost drove away from her. I

remember

> this. But I know it's false, of course.

> BTW, I know there is some substantial research going on in US

regarding the

> credibility of witnesses. In this research a trained examiner is

able to

> create memories that weren't there in the first place. I saw it on

TV, but I

> don't remember the university or the person.

> Well none of us know what really happened, but according to the

Danish news,

> and I guess it's the same through all Europe, then there are so

many

points

> that would justify a new trial, that this execution is regarded as

something

> connected with the presidential campaign, and not justice.

>

> Therefore, if Mr. Bush becomes the next president, the papers have

already

> painted a picture of a man who is willing to kill innocent people

to

win.

>

> Anyway, when I register the news from the mass media, which is more

than

> enough for ordinary people, then there comes a rather ugly picture

of US,

> which I think is unfair. Most people don't dig deeper into your

country,

> they just shake their heads.

>

> Schoolchildren shooting each other, well, it's just those crazy

americans.

> Abortion doctors assassinated, well, it's just those crazy

americans.

> Execution of innocent people, well, it's just those crazy americans.

>

> When the news are filled with incidences like this, it's no wonder

we'll get

> an eschewed picture.

>

> But of course things happens in Europe too. Some years ago, there

was a

> rocker war in Scandinavia with a lot of dead persons. They even used

> military panzer rockets. The names of the groups were Hells Angels

and

> Bandidos.

> So who were to blame? USA, of course, even though only

scandinavians

were

> involved. It must have been something they have got from US,

because

we

> wouldn't do such things!

> See where I'm getting. You'll be blamed no matter what.

>

> An another point. I think every nation in the world have relatives

living in

> US, and almost every scandinavian family have relatives 'over

there'. But

> they, of course, are decent people that would never do the things

all the

> other americans are doing.

>

> Then, and this is the most important point. If US didn't exist

Europe would

> most likely have been dominated by either Germany or Russia, so we

would

> have had to invent you anyway. ;-)

>

> Well, I guess there is neither head nor tail in this.

>

> But what I'm getting it is that when I utter some less flattering

comments

> about what's going on 'over there', it's not anti-americanism. You

are just

> very important, and therefore we (I) feel justified to have an

opinion on

> what's going on. Because in a year or two, we'll probably have the

same

> issue to relate to in our own backyard.

>

> This have sure been the truth when I look at step philosophy, but

where do I

> seek for help? In US!

>

> Bjørn

>

> P.S.

> I don't understand why I'm in such a sympathetic mood today, maybe

I

should

> seek a doctor?

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Kayleigh:

Yes! I remember this as well. But considering the subject matter I

considered it better to leave off posting on it as I had a tenuous grasp the

facts at best.

Re: EXECUTION

The issue with eyewitnesses is not whether they are credible. They

usually believe they are telling the truth, so they are definitely

credible. The trouble is, as I was taught in law school, they are

simply liable to be wrong. There was an experiment done in a

classroom, in which the professor hired four people to rush in during

the class and intimidate the students. The students who later tried

to describe the miscreants generally believed they were taller and

heavier than they actually were. They were way off about their

clothing. Most telling, however, was that though these people were

white, most of the students described them as black. This does not

tell a pretty story about life in the United States.

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 6/29/00 1:19:07 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

chartman@... writes:

> 'm not touching the lynching subject, that has nothing to do with capital

> punishment today, that was racism and I won't discuss that, it was sick,

> twisted and evil. Injecting someone with something to make their heart

stop

> painlessly in no way can be compared to that.

Well I don't think you can talk about Capital Punishment without bringing up

race and class. I deplore the DP for many reasons. IIMHO the best reason to

abolish it is because it is only applied to poor defendents. From the time of

arrest, when the DA decides whether to go for the DP, to the appeals process,

individuals with power in our society are *NEVER* executed. Somewhere along

the way in the process a person's wealth will take him off the death penalty

tract.

People who can not afford lawyers usually get some kid out of law school who

probably hasn't read " Furman V. Georgia, one of the major opinions on capital

punishment.

Do you believe this is true? If it is, and I can dig up the stats somewhere,

would you still be in favor of the death penalty?

LJ

>

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 6/29/00 1:25:32 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

chartman@... writes:

> I'm an investment analyst

Are you white? Have you ever been abused by the police? Do you believe the

criminal justice system is fair? Are whites and blacks treated equally by the

police and courts. Are rich and poor treated equally in the same venue?

Are you willing to sacrifice the " mistakes " people who are executed who are

innocent, for the greater good as you perceive it?

LJ

>