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I say three cheers for 12-step-free!!!

I don't like the name-calling either. And I think we are strong enough to

withstand any real troll who ventures here. We will get them sooner or

later and as long as this list is in existence. It's on Apple's site. I

never thought Mike was a real troll and I wrote to Ken to keep him on.

ly, I don't think anyone should be cut from the list unless they come

in here insulting us and our beliefs right from the get go and using coarse

language to boot. Otherwise, with such a diverse membership, who among us

knows that we may say the 'wrong' thing or believe differently in other

matters and end up being cut because of a 'group conscience'. There are

many of us here who experienced 'shunning' from the AAers because we

questioned something - are we also going to practice that here?

jan

Re: Personal Attacks

> Yes, but how about the rest of it?

>

> Kate

>

> > In a message dated 6/1/00 1:31:27 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

> kstads@g...

> > writes:

> >

> > > ccording to the main page on the web, 12-step-free will soon

> > > celebrate its 2-year anniversary. In reviewing the archive

> summary,

> > > it is clear that the list is thriving and the membership

> substantial.

> > > I do not think we need to worry about the list being destroyed

> or

> > > even undermined by trolls or those people with apologist

> leanings.

> >

> > No disagreement from me, Kate.

> >

> >

> > >

>

>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

> Was the salesman clueless? Productopia has the answers.

> http://click./1/4633/2/_/4324/_/959881065/

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

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>

>

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Hi everyone///

I wrote a few days ago gushing about how I am still

attending meetings. Well, that's still true. Last

night I went to a meeting. It totally wrecked my

mood. I had gone with the mindset that I have been

feeling so good lately, that I ought to " give some

back " . The person chairing the meeting was a very

popular female " aa sage " who can do no wrong. As it

happens, we had a few phone conversations years ago

and she was very discreet and level with me. I will

never forget her kindness, and I feel that everything

she ever said to me was with all the goodness in her

heart. We never become good friends, though. She has

never called or expressed any interest in getting to

know me better.

So anyway, she is moving out of state. When I shared,

I said " You will be missed. You were very good to me

at a difficult time bla bla " and then I went on to

talk about my day. So a few shares later, this other

matron of aa said " to say you will be missed is an

understatement " then went on to give a lecture on how

great her life is and how lousy her brother's life is

(because he just " can't get it " ). I felt it was a

personal shot at me, as if I should have kissed ass to

someone that I don't know very well. I meant the good

things I said, and to say anymore would have been

fake.

Then there was the mention of specific religious

theology that I won't even bore you all with, but

again if AA is not relgious in nature, why are we

talking about you-know-who in an open meeting? And of

course that guy won't catch any flak for it.

By the time I went home, I felt insecure and

defensive. I had started out my evening feeling

confident and hopeful. So who is the " sick and

suffering person " ??

And by the way I have plans to go to yet another

meeting tonight.

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Hi Janice:

I suppose it depends on how you define troll. But lets put that

aside for a moment.

Lets say I belonged to a group called apple eaters and our little

group was going on about our business happily discussing the myriad

ecstasies of the various forms of apples.

Then of a sudden, supposedly out of the blue a crap eater shows up.

Now our apple eater group, for the most part, really doesn't care

what people eat so long as they're not forcing anyone to eat

something they don't want to eat. To make matters worse he keeps

insisting that his crap is indeed a special type of apple. Indeed

his crap was shit out of the holy bowels of the crap eater's group

leaders over 60 years ago and shouldn't be compared to the crap

coming out of the crap eaters group now because indeed the original

crap really is a special apple where as the current crap is just

crap.

When he's told, " hey bubba that's not an apple that's crap " He

quickly reshapes his crap into a large brown apple and screams fowl.

Yelling at the top of his lungs " What kind of an apple eater group is

this that I can't discuss my big brown apple? " When he's told " hey

bubba you can shape that crap any way you want to but at the end of

the day it's still crap " he jumps up and down insisting " It's an

apple it's an apple it's an apple " " I'm leaving this god forsaken

apple eater group that doesn't know crap from apples " In the process

of leaving He has an accident and shits all over the apple eaters

group. But then he changes his mind about leaving because, after

all, where else can he discuss eating the original crap-apple. After

all most of the crap eater's group is more interested in eating

today's crap and not the original holy crap-apple.

At some point you've got to ask yourself what is this crap eater

doing in the apple eater orchard. If he's fertilizing the apple

trees I'd say more power to him, but our friend crap eater isn't

interested in that. He's more interested in fertilizing the original

holy crap-apple trees.

Now back to the troll business:

Twelve Step Free Zone is a discussion list for those who have left

the groups or are seriously questioning the 12-step doctrine.

Our friend has neither left the groups nor is he questioning the

doctrine.

Quite the contrary, In a mistaken belief that the program as it was

intended to be practiced, was so much better, he feels that the

doctrine isn't being followed to the letter which is what's causing

problems and that a return to the good old days with stricter

adherence to the doctrine would correct that. I don't see any

doctrine questioning in that position.

I've always imagined that 12-SF was about how to get and keep

yourself out of XA and not how to make XA better. The framework for

the list was established when it was created. For someone to come

into the group and insist on constantly stepping out of that

framework, on it's most basic precept, is an insult to the entire

concept of the list.

If he clearly understands the intent of the list (he's given no

reason to indicate that he doesn't, quite the contrary in fact) than

anything he sends to the list contrary to the intent of the list is

Trolling.

As to the group conscience thing. Well I don't really see where that

applies. This isn't an open forum it's a restricted list dedicated

to 12 step freeisms. Asking members to stay within the confines of

the boundaries set when the list was created isn't a negative, nor is

it asking too much. Indeed It should be expected.

As to the shunning thing. This is an internet discussion list.

Things like group conscience and shunning don't really apply. You're

either on or off topic. If your off topic but not shattering the

precepts of the group no big deal but if your constantly off topic

and/or constantly out of the scope of the precepts of the list than

you really don't belong on that list. Similarly neither should

anyone join a discussion list for which their personal beliefs fall

outside the scope of discussion. That's just asking for

trouble. -Trolling-

Should a devil worshiper join a list called " God First Last and

Always " ? Would the list owner be wrong in booting him? I would

say no in both instances.

Re: Re: Personal Attacks

I say three cheers for 12-step-free!!!

I don't like the name-calling either. And I think we are strong

enough to

withstand any real troll who ventures here. We will get them sooner

or

later and as long as this list is in existence. It's on Apple's

site. I

never thought Mike was a real troll and I wrote to Ken to keep him

on.

ly, I don't think anyone should be cut from the list unless they

come

in here insulting us and our beliefs right from the get go and using

coarse

language to boot. Otherwise, with such a diverse membership, who

among us

knows that we may say the 'wrong' thing or believe differently in

other

matters and end up being cut because of a 'group conscience'. There

are

many of us here who experienced 'shunning' from the AAers because we

questioned something - are we also going to practice that here?

jan

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On Fri, 2 Jun 2000 09:33:25 -0700 (PDT), 12-step-freeegroups wrote:

> So anyway, she is moving out of state. When I shared,

> I said " You will be missed. You were very good to me

> at a difficult time bla bla " and then I went on to

> talk about my day. So a few shares later, this other

> matron of aa said " to say you will be missed is an

> understatement " then went on to give a lecture on how

> great her life is and how lousy her brother's life is

> (because he just " can't get it " ). I felt it was a

> personal shot at me, as if I should have kissed ass to

> someone that I don't know very well. I meant the good

> things I said, and to say anymore would have been

> fake.

Well, let me give you the validation you didn't receive in that meeting.

Even people in AA can be kind and compassionate; but now I think they are

kind in spite of AA, rather than because of it. I don't blame you for

feeling that the next speaker was trying to one-up you, and implying that

you weren't sufficiently grateful.

I am so sick of false gratitude! I feel spontaneous, sincere gratitude

really frequently. Why do I have to go on and on about it?

Good for you, you did the right thing in being true to yourself.

Judith

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\\RE: to Janet

I REALLY ROFL, dropped my phone and broke it, couldn't finish reading post,

& now my ribs hurt!

Thanks, I need that.

Charlene

- Re: Re: Personal Attacks

I say three cheers for 12-step-free!!!

I don't like the name-calling either. And I think we are strong

enough to

withstand any real troll who ventures here. We will get them sooner

or

later and as long as this list is in existence. It's on Apple's

site. I

never thought Mike was a real troll and I wrote to Ken to keep him

on.

ly, I don't think anyone should be cut from the list unless they

come

in here insulting us and our beliefs right from the get go and using

coarse

language to boot. Otherwise, with such a diverse membership, who

among us

knows that we may say the 'wrong' thing or believe differently in

other

matters and end up being cut because of a 'group conscience'. There

are

many of us here who experienced 'shunning' from the AAers because we

questioned something - are we also going to practice that here?

jan

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Well, , I agree with most of what you say. And also with

much of what Jan said.

Mike does (sort of) question some things about XA, though I agree

that in trying to " reform " XA he does not actually question 12-step

philosophy very deeply. But this, and the fact that he still attends

meetings, does not bother me nearly as much as the nasty accusations of

us being controlled by Pete, and his constant attempts to demand that

this list be all about him (as someone else pointed out): how many

people want him here, who agrees with some little point HE has made, who

has the " courage " to support HIS point of view, etc. It's as though he

is here for the primary purpose of picking a fight, and clawing his way

to some Alpha Male position.

<< Should a devil worshiper join a list called " God First Last and

Always " ? Would the list owner be wrong in booting him?   I would say

no in both instances. >>

Agreed. These occurrances are what make unmoderated Usenet groups

so depressing. The number of neo-Nazis trolling the major Jewish NG is

amazing!

~Rita

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Hi Rita:

What can I say. You're right as usual.

Some might not believe this but I constantly re-evaluate my positions

on just about everything these days. Mike in and of himself and his

views doesn't really bother me. What bothers me is that he feels he

can say whatever he wants without being called on it. When he is

though look out that Alpha Male thing you talk about below comes into

play. Initially I ascribed that particular trait to him having been

in AA for so long and being used to being right and never being

questioned. I think your description suites the situation better.

I think it was the same someone else who said they never give an inch

to steppers because they always want more concessions. I agree with

that position but I'm going to go counter to that just now.

Do I think Mike is a bad guy? No, I just think he's working with

some pretty bad assumptions. Mostly I think he's pretty harmless. I

have to admit that Freudian slip sent me into the cookoo's nest

though. The thought process behind it shows a lot about the type of

person he is.

Except for when he tried to pull me into his shenanigans I pretty

much left him to his own devices. After this I'll probably go back

to doing just that. It's interesting to note that he's picked up a

few books. One can only hope that he did so with the intention of

learning about AA vice learning how to counter anti-AA sentiment.

RE: Re: Personal Attacks

Well, , I agree with most of what you say. And also with

much of what Jan said.

Mike does (sort of) question some things about XA, though I

agree

that in trying to " reform " XA he does not actually question 12-step

philosophy very deeply. But this, and the fact that he still attends

meetings, does not bother me nearly as much as the nasty accusations

of

us being controlled by Pete, and his constant attempts to demand that

this list be all about him (as someone else pointed out): how many

people want him here, who agrees with some little point HE has made,

who

has the " courage " to support HIS point of view, etc. It's as though

he

is here for the primary purpose of picking a fight, and clawing his

way

to some Alpha Male position.

<< Should a devil worshiper join a list called " God First Last and

Always " ? Would the list owner be wrong in booting him? I would say

no in both instances. >>

Agreed. These occurrances are what make unmoderated Usenet

groups

so depressing. The number of neo-Nazis trolling the major Jewish NG

is

amazing!

~Rita

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I wouldn't say that Janice. I think Ken's intent is to keep the list

as open as possible. Or maybe he's a devious rat bastard and has

Mike under the microscope as we speak :)

Instead of you being completely off base how about we say that

together we explored both sides of the issue. After all how can

either of us be wrong when we're expressing our viewpoints?

Re: Re: Personal Attacks

Hi - you made your point - hilariously, I might add!

I concede some may not want any meeting goer and/or AA reformer on

this list

at all. And no, we've never had a 'group conscience' like AAer's at

least

that I'm aware of. However, personally, Mike didn't cause the hairs

on the

back of my neck to crawl so I'm only voicing a viewpoint from my

perspective. But I guess it's time I reread Ken's introduction to

this

list. Apparently I'm completely off-base!

jan

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Hi - you made your point - hilariously, I might add!

I concede some may not want any meeting goer and/or AA reformer on this list

at all. And no, we've never had a 'group conscience' like AAer's at least

that I'm aware of. However, personally, Mike didn't cause the hairs on the

back of my neck to crawl so I'm only voicing a viewpoint from my

perspective. But I guess it's time I reread Ken's introduction to this

list. Apparently I'm completely off-base!

jan

Re: Re: Personal Attacks

>

> I say three cheers for 12-step-free!!!

>

> I don't like the name-calling either. And I think we are strong

> enough to

> withstand any real troll who ventures here. We will get them sooner

> or

> later and as long as this list is in existence. It's on Apple's

> site. I

> never thought Mike was a real troll and I wrote to Ken to keep him

> on.

> ly, I don't think anyone should be cut from the list unless they

> come

> in here insulting us and our beliefs right from the get go and using

> coarse

> language to boot. Otherwise, with such a diverse membership, who

> among us

> knows that we may say the 'wrong' thing or believe differently in

> other

> matters and end up being cut because of a 'group conscience'. There

> are

> many of us here who experienced 'shunning' from the AAers because we

> questioned something - are we also going to practice that here?

>

> jan

>

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

> Missing old school friends? Find them here:

> http://click./1/4055/2/_/4324/_/959963771/

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>

>

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At 11:55 AM 6/5/00 -0400, carol salo wrote:

>Can you tell me Apple's site address?

<http://www.aadeprogramming.com>

>

>CS

> Re: Re: Personal Attacks

>

>

>> I say three cheers for 12-step-free!!!

>>

>> I don't like the name-calling either. And I think we are strong enough to

>> withstand any real troll who ventures here. We will get them sooner or

>> later and as long as this list is in existence. It's on Apple's site. I

-----

http://listen.to/benbradley

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Can you tell me Apple's site address?

CS

Re: Personal Attacks

>

>

> > Yes, but how about the rest of it?

> >

> > Kate

> >

> > > In a message dated 6/1/00 1:31:27 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

> > kstads@g...

> > > writes:

> > >

> > > > ccording to the main page on the web, 12-step-free will soon

> > > > celebrate its 2-year anniversary. In reviewing the archive

> > summary,

> > > > it is clear that the list is thriving and the membership

> > substantial.

> > > > I do not think we need to worry about the list being destroyed

> > or

> > > > even undermined by trolls or those people with apologist

> > leanings.

> > >

> > > No disagreement from me, Kate.

> > >

> > >

> > > >

> >

> >

> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------

> > Was the salesman clueless? Productopia has the answers.

> > http://click./1/4633/2/_/4324/_/959881065/

> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------

> >

> >

> >

>

>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

> @Backup- Protect and Access your data any time, any where on the net.

> Try @Backup FREE and recieve 300 points from mypoints.com Install now:

> http://click./1/4873/2/_/4324/_/959909348/

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Thanks. CS

Re: Re: Personal Attacks

> >

> >

> >> I say three cheers for 12-step-free!!!

> >>

> >> I don't like the name-calling either. And I think we are strong enough

to

> >> withstand any real troll who ventures here. We will get them sooner or

> >> later and as long as this list is in existence. It's on Apple's site.

I

> -----

> http://listen.to/benbradley

>

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Hey, but, I don't believe in Santa Claus any more (though St is a

different matter),

.

>

>Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups

>To: 12-step-freeegroups

>Subject: Re: Personal Attacks

>Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2000 05:05:32 -0000

>

>i think ken is still the man. he keeps a low profile but i dont think

>he checks in

>from time to time. kinda like santa claus

>

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The SANITY clause!!!

DH.

>

>Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups

>To: <12-step-freeegroups>

>Subject: Re: Re: Personal Attacks

>Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 20:08:43 -0400

>

>The funniest line, in the history of the world, was Zeppo (correct

>brother?)

>replying to Groucho's sale pitch about the sanity clause in an ins. policy;

> " You can't fool me, there ain't no Santy Claus " HA HA HAAA!!!

>----- Original Message -----

>

>

> > Hey, but, I don't believe in Santa Claus any more (though St is

>a

> > different matter),

> >

> > .

>

>

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Yeah. I know, but that was the joke... you know, sanity- sane, SANTY, the

old fat guy. I guess you have to see the movie. I think it was " Day at the

Races "

Re: Re: Personal Attacks

> >Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 20:08:43 -0400

> >

> >The funniest line, in the history of the world, was Zeppo (correct

> >brother?)

> >replying to Groucho's sale pitch about the sanity clause in an ins.

policy;

> > " You can't fool me, there ain't no Santy Claus " HA HA HAAA!!!

> >----- Original Message -----

> >

> >

> > > Hey, but, I don't believe in Santa Claus any more (though St

is

> >a

> > > different matter),

> > >

> > > .

> >

> >

>

> ________________________________________________________________________

> Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

>

>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

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Yeah. I know, too -- it was jest me laughing,

.

>

>Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups

>To: <12-step-freeegroups>

>Subject: Re: Re: Personal Attacks

>Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 06:41:18 -0400

>

>Yeah. I know, but that was the joke... you know, sanity- sane, SANTY, the

>old fat guy. I guess you have to see the movie. I think it was " Day at the

>Races "

> Re: Re: Personal Attacks

> > >Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 20:08:43 -0400

> > >

> > >The funniest line, in the history of the world, was Zeppo (correct

> > >brother?)

> > >replying to Groucho's sale pitch about the sanity clause in an ins.

>policy;

> > > " You can't fool me, there ain't no Santy Claus " HA HA HAAA!!!

> > >----- Original Message -----

> > >

> > >

> > > > Hey, but, I don't believe in Santa Claus any more (though St

>

>is

> > >a

> > > > different matter),

> > > >

> > > > .

> > >

> > >

> >

> > ________________________________________________________________________

> > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

> >

> >

> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------

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> > more each month? Join beMANY! Our huge buying group gives you Long

>Distance

> > rates which fall monthly, plus an extra $60 in FREE calls!

> > http://click./1/2567/2/_/4324/_/960603768/

> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------

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> >

>

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" Night at the Opera, " if I'm not mistaken. Harpo's trying to negotiate a

contract.

---

Kayleigh

Zz

zZ

|\ z _,,,---,,_

/,`.-'`' _ ;-;;,_

|,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-'

'---''(_/--' `-'\_)

>Yeah. I know, but that was the joke... you know, sanity- sane, SANTY, the

>old fat guy. I guess you have to see the movie. I think it was " Day at the

>Races "

> Re: Re: Personal Attacks

>> >Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 20:08:43 -0400

>> >

>> >The funniest line, in the history of the world, was Zeppo (correct

>> >brother?)

>> >replying to Groucho's sale pitch about the sanity clause in an ins.

>policy;

>> > " You can't fool me, there ain't no Santy Claus " HA HA HAAA!!!

>> >----- Original Message -----

>> >

>> >

>> > > Hey, but, I don't believe in Santa Claus any more (though St

>is

>> >a

>> > > different matter),

>> > >

>> > > .

>> >

>> >

>>

>> ________________________________________________________________________

>> Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

>>

>>

>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

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>> more each month? Join beMANY! Our huge buying group gives you Long

>Distance

>> rates which fall monthly, plus an extra $60 in FREE calls!

>> http://click./1/2567/2/_/4324/_/960603768/

>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

>>

>>

>

>

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Now I remember- it was Chico- wasn't Harpo the mute one? And was he mute in

real life?

Re: Re: Personal Attacks

> >> >Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 20:08:43 -0400

> >> >

> >> >The funniest line, in the history of the world, was Zeppo (correct

> >> >brother?)

> >> >replying to Groucho's sale pitch about the sanity clause in an ins.

> >policy;

> >> > " You can't fool me, there ain't no Santy Claus " HA HA HAAA!!!

> >> >----- Original Message -----

> >> >

> >> >

> >> > > Hey, but, I don't believe in Santa Claus any more (though St

> >is

> >> >a

> >> > > different matter),

> >> > >

> >> > > .

> >> >

> >> >

> >>

> >>

________________________________________________________________________

> >> Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at

http://www.hotmail.com

> >>

> >>

>

>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

> >> Would you like to save big on your phone bill -- and keep on saving

> >> more each month? Join beMANY! Our huge buying group gives you Long

> >Distance

> >> rates which fall monthly, plus an extra $60 in FREE calls!

> >> http://click./1/2567/2/_/4324/_/960603768/

>

>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

> >>

> >>

> >

> >

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Yes, Harpo was the mute one, and I thought a lot of the humor in " Night at the

Opera " derived from his reliance on others to negotiate the contract. But I

could easily be wrong, it's so long since I've seen it.

---

Kayleigh

Zz

zZ

|\ z _,,,---,,_

/,`.-'`' _ ;-;;,_

|,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-'

'---''(_/--' `-'\_)

>Now I remember- it was Chico- wasn't Harpo the mute one? And was he mute in

>real life?

> Re: Re: Personal Attacks

>> >> >Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 20:08:43 -0400

>> >> >

>> >> >The funniest line, in the history of the world, was Zeppo (correct

>> >> >brother?)

>> >> >replying to Groucho's sale pitch about the sanity clause in an ins.

>> >policy;

>> >> > " You can't fool me, there ain't no Santy Claus " HA HA HAAA!!!

>> >> >----- Original Message -----

>> >> >

>> >> >

>> >> > > Hey, but, I don't believe in Santa Claus any more (though St

>

>> >is

>> >> >a

>> >> > > different matter),

>> >> > >

>> >> > > .

>> >> >

>> >> >

>> >>

>> >>

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>> >>

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>> Before you buy.

>>

>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

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Guest guest

I don't think were talking about the same scene, but it's also been a long

time since I've seen any Mark Brothers. I really need to get some of their

movies- I think they are the funniest thigs ever put on film. Another of my

favorites is Groucho as the new hotel manager trying to improve efficiency

(loosely quoted); " If they want a 3 minute egg, give it 2 minutes. If they

want a two minute egg, give it 1 minute. If they want a 1 minute egg, give

em' a chicken and let them work it out for themselves " It looses a lot in

the written form, but as performed... HaaHaaHAAAAA!!

Re: Re: Personal Attacks

> Yes, Harpo was the mute one, and I thought a lot of the humor in " Night at

the Opera " derived from his reliance on others to negotiate the contract.

But I could easily be wrong, it's so long since I've seen it.

> ---

> Kayleigh

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Guest guest

Selections de Groucho:

" A child of five would understand this. Send somebody to fetch a child of

five. " -- " Duck Soup " .

" Remember, men, we're fighting for this woman's honor; which is probably

more than she ever did. " -- " Duck Soup " .

.

>

>Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups

>To: <12-step-freeegroups>

>Subject: Re: Re: Personal Attacks

>Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 22:12:15 -0400

>

>I don't think were talking about the same scene, but it's also been a long

>time since I've seen any Mark Brothers. I really need to get some of their

>movies- I think they are the funniest thigs ever put on film. Another of my

>favorites is Groucho as the new hotel manager trying to improve efficiency

>(loosely quoted); " If they want a 3 minute egg, give it 2 minutes. If they

>want a two minute egg, give it 1 minute. If they want a 1 minute egg, give

>em' a chicken and let them work it out for themselves " It looses a lot in

>the written form, but as performed... HaaHaaHAAAAA!!

> Re: Re: Personal Attacks

>

>

> > Yes, Harpo was the mute one, and I thought a lot of the humor in " Night

>at

>the Opera " derived from his reliance on others to negotiate the contract.

>But I could easily be wrong, it's so long since I've seen it.

> > ---

> > Kayleigh

>

>

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